ISF Logo   IS Forum
Forum Index Register Members List Events Mark Forums Read Help

Go Back   International Skeptics Forum » General Topics » Non-USA & General Politics
 


Welcome to the International Skeptics Forum, where we discuss skepticism, critical thinking, the paranormal and science in a friendly but lively way. You are currently viewing the forum as a guest, which means you are missing out on discussing matters that are of interest to you. Please consider registering so you can gain full use of the forum features and interact with other Members. Registration is simple, fast and free! Click here to register today.
Reply
Old 18th November 2019, 07:59 AM   #1
SuburbanTurkey
Illuminator
 
SuburbanTurkey's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2018
Location: Massachusetts, USA
Posts: 4,920
Military coup in Bolivia removes president Morales.

Haven't seen any posts about this anywhere.

A military coup in unfolding in Bolivia. President Morales has fled to Mexico under fear of being arrested or murdered by the military.

It is becoming increasingly clear that complaints about voting irregularity were just a pretext for a coup.

Jeanine Añez has declared herself the interim president. She is the head of a far-right party that is not popular, carrying less than 5% of the vote.

She has declared that the police and military will not be prosecuted for any murders they commit in order to restore order.

Añez has announced the formation of a "special apparatus" who's mission is to arrest members of the MAS party, who currently hold about 2/3 of the seats in the legislature.

Despite all this, many politicians in the Western world refuse to acknowledge that this is a military coup.

https://www.commondreams.org/news/20...arrest-leftist
__________________
Gobble gobble
SuburbanTurkey is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 18th November 2019, 08:21 AM   #2
ponderingturtle
Orthogonal Vector
 
ponderingturtle's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Posts: 49,145
From this article it seems a bit hard to say at the moment how much it counts as a coup or not.

https://www.theguardian.com/world/20...enounce-a-coup

It doesn't look like either Morales or Añez are terribly interested in keeping democracy going.

There seem to be some real issues with the vote, and declaring victory before the counting is done and removing the term limits for president are not great signs that Morales is on the up and up.
__________________
Sufficiently advanced Woo is indistinguishable from Parody
"There shall be no *poofing* in science" Paul C. Anagnostopoulos
Force ***** on reasons back" Ben Franklin
ponderingturtle is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 18th November 2019, 08:30 AM   #3
SuburbanTurkey
Illuminator
 
SuburbanTurkey's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2018
Location: Massachusetts, USA
Posts: 4,920
Originally Posted by ponderingturtle View Post
From this article it seems a bit hard to say at the moment how much it counts as a coup or not.

https://www.theguardian.com/world/20...enounce-a-coup

It doesn't look like either Morales or Añez are terribly interested in keeping democracy going.

There seem to be some real issues with the vote, and declaring victory before the counting is done and removing the term limits for president are not great signs that Morales is on the up and up.
I think regardless of any problems with Morales, it's still a coup.

The military is arresting dissidents and installed Anez into power. The police are killing protesters in the streets.
__________________
Gobble gobble
SuburbanTurkey is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 18th November 2019, 08:33 AM   #4
ahhell
Illuminator
 
Join Date: Feb 2017
Posts: 3,205
Doesn't seem like there's a real good side in this story. I think Ponding is correct, neither Anez nor Morales seem much interested in democratic values.

Edit to add a link and a quote that I find interesting.
https://www.nytimes.com/2019/11/12/w...ales-coup.html

Quote:
Seemingly, the events in Bolivia fit the popular conception of a street revolution: Citizens filled the streets to demand the resignation of a leader who refused to respect the limits on his power, eventually recruiting powerful institutions from the left and right to make that come about. The government remains in the hands of elected civilians, who have promised new elections, and Mr. Morales remains free.

It also seemingly matched the popular conception of a coup, with the military calling on the president to step down and, sure enough, with that happening. Mr. Morales himself called his removal a coup. While he has since softened his language, he has also accepted asylum in Mexico.

In one conception, the people heroically saved democracy; in the other, a handful of elites cravenly betrayed it. Both cite the same set of facts.

Last edited by ahhell; 18th November 2019 at 08:38 AM.
ahhell is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 18th November 2019, 08:59 AM   #5
timhau
NWO Litter Technician
 
timhau's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2004
Location: Looks like Finland. Smells like Finland. Quacks like Finland. Where the hell am I?
Posts: 13,658
Originally Posted by ahhell View Post
Doesn't seem like there's a real good side in this story. I think Ponding is correct, neither Anez nor Morales seem much interested in democratic values.
I'm not a fan of what Anez stands for, but given the level of unrest, I'd be willing to give her the benefit of a doubt - for now. Morales wore his out a few years ago.

Bolivia has had its share of military coups. This doesn't look much like them - for now.
__________________
When I was a kid I used to pray every night for a new bicycle. Then I realised that the Lord, in his wisdom, doesn't work that way. I just stole one and asked Him to forgive me.
- Emo Philips
timhau is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 18th November 2019, 09:07 AM   #6
theprestige
Penultimate Amazing
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Hong Kong
Posts: 45,286
Originally Posted by SuburbanTurkey View Post
Despite all this, many politicians in the Western world refuse to acknowledge that this is a military coup.
What a weird thing to say. I doubt many polticians have been asked the question and refused to answer. I think you probably mean that many politicians have not yet made a statement about what's going on in Bolivia.

And that is reasonable. Most western politicians have immediate duties to their constituents, who elected them and have interests much closer to home than what's going on in Bolivia. Most politicians probably don't know enough about the situation there, don't know enough about their own government's diplomatic and economic position (which is probably still developing), and don't know enough about their own party's position (which is probably also still developing), to have anything meaningful to say at this time.

Did you have any specific politicians in mind, who you believe can and should be voicing public opinions about Bolivia at this time?
theprestige is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 18th November 2019, 09:22 AM   #7
ponderingturtle
Orthogonal Vector
 
ponderingturtle's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Posts: 49,145
Originally Posted by SuburbanTurkey View Post
I think regardless of any problems with Morales, it's still a coup.

The military is arresting dissidents and installed Anez into power. The police are killing protesters in the streets.
That seems to be what was called for, provided she does her job of holding elections in 90 days which see doesn't seem to care about.

The elections seem to be invalid and need to be redone and the procedure for that is to have the person in her position be temporary president to do that. If she refuses to hold elections then it would be a fall of democracy, but this seems more of a breakdown in democracy that a true military coup.

I also did not see that the military is solidly behind her,
__________________
Sufficiently advanced Woo is indistinguishable from Parody
"There shall be no *poofing* in science" Paul C. Anagnostopoulos
Force ***** on reasons back" Ben Franklin
ponderingturtle is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 18th November 2019, 10:19 AM   #8
SuburbanTurkey
Illuminator
 
SuburbanTurkey's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2018
Location: Massachusetts, USA
Posts: 4,920
Originally Posted by ponderingturtle View Post
That seems to be what was called for, provided she does her job of holding elections in 90 days which see doesn't seem to care about.

The elections seem to be invalid and need to be redone and the procedure for that is to have the person in her position be temporary president to do that. If she refuses to hold elections then it would be a fall of democracy, but this seems more of a breakdown in democracy that a true military coup.

I also did not see that the military is solidly behind her,
I suppose a wait and see is in order, but the arrests of opposition politicians and journalists are a very bad sign. I would expect that effort will be made to prevent MAS from fielding candidates on some flimsy pretext.

Seems like a very real possibility to me that the anti-Morales talking points are just a pretext to violently remove a fairly popular leftist government and install an unpopular, hard right government in its place. The "transitional" government is already taking steps that most would consider beyond the scope of an interim government, such as radically changing policy unrelated to holding a prompt election.

The political purge is ramping up, not calming
https://www.nytimes.com/2019/11/16/w...core-ios-share
__________________
Gobble gobble

Last edited by SuburbanTurkey; 18th November 2019 at 10:33 AM.
SuburbanTurkey is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 18th November 2019, 10:37 AM   #9
8enotto
Graduate Poster
 
Join Date: Dec 2018
Location: Mexico
Posts: 1,603
The only thing on Mexican news is blurbs of the temp leader calling the deposed leader to justice.

He did leave before the coup took real force.

Either way, best to worry for him later and get the country back on its feet now.
8enotto is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 18th November 2019, 12:19 PM   #10
Childlike Empress
Ewige Blumenkraft
 
Childlike Empress's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: Ivory Tower
Posts: 18,275
Originally Posted by SuburbanTurkey View Post
Haven't seen any posts about this anywhere.

I GIMPed a wiphala into my avatar yesterday in solidarity with the people who now suffer under these freaks for a (I predict short) while, but I didn't feel like knowing what the usual suspects here have to relay about what they read in the Guardian or NYT.

For those interested, me and my comrades at ACLOS have compiled a bunch of information.
__________________
Audiatur et altera pars
Childlike Empress is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 18th November 2019, 12:55 PM   #11
Skeptic Ginger
Nasty Woman
 
Skeptic Ginger's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Posts: 81,729
Originally Posted by SuburbanTurkey View Post
Haven't seen any posts about this anywhere.

A military coup in unfolding in Bolivia. President Morales has fled to Mexico under fear of being arrested or murdered by the military.

It is becoming increasingly clear that complaints about voting irregularity were just a pretext for a coup.

Jeanine Añez has declared herself the interim president. She is the head of a far-right party that is not popular, carrying less than 5% of the vote.

She has declared that the police and military will not be prosecuted for any murders they commit in order to restore order.

Añez has announced the formation of a "special apparatus" who's mission is to arrest members of the MAS party, who currently hold about 2/3 of the seats in the legislature.

Despite all this, many politicians in the Western world refuse to acknowledge that this is a military coup.

https://www.commondreams.org/news/20...arrest-leftist
I wonder if the US was involved at all. Boy, that's really taking us back to the 60s, Trump's favorite years.

I will however, await more information.
__________________
Privatize the profits and socialize the losses. It's the American way. That's how Mnuchin got rich. Worse, he did it on the backs of elderly people who had been conned into reverse mortgages. Mnuchin paid zero, took on the debt then taxpayers bailed him out.

Space Force.
Because feeding poor people is socialism.

Last edited by Skeptic Ginger; 18th November 2019 at 01:02 PM.
Skeptic Ginger is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 19th November 2019, 01:00 AM   #12
McHrozni
Penultimate Amazing
 
Join Date: Jun 2009
Posts: 11,914
Originally Posted by SuburbanTurkey View Post
Haven't seen any posts about this anywhere.

A military coup in unfolding in Bolivia. President Morales has fled to Mexico under fear of being arrested or murdered by the military.
Lol, no.

Morales 'won' the reelection, but voting irregularities were so profound he couldn't keep up the pretense. The protests against Morales have been going on for a while and police joined them.

https://www.reuters.com/article/us-b...-idUSKBN1XI20M

Quote:
It is becoming increasingly clear that complaints about voting irregularity were just a pretext for a coup.
No, that's just propaganda.

Quote:
Jeanine Añez has declared herself the interim president. She is the head of a far-right party that is not popular, carrying less than 5% of the vote.
No, she was just the person Bolivian constitution, written in 2009 when Morales was president, says should take over in that situation. If following the constitution the 'ousted' president wrote is a coup, you're on the wrong side of the argument.

Quote:
She has declared that the police and military will not be prosecuted for any murders they commit in order to restore order.

Añez has announced the formation of a "special apparatus" who's mission is to arrest members of the MAS party, who currently hold about 2/3 of the seats in the legislature.
I can't find any evidence of either. I assume both are fake news. It would be nothing new for the propaganda site you cited.

https://www.commondreams.org/views/2...oil-domination
https://www.commondreams.org/views/2...c-coup-ukraine

Politically, the site is about as far deep in the Russian rectum as Trump is. The only difference that I can see is that Trump knows it.

Quote:
Despite all this, many politicians in the Western world refuse to acknowledge that this is a military coup.
Maybe it's because a corrupt politician was ousted in line with the constitution he himself wrote and that's the opposite of a coup.

McHrozni
__________________
لا إله إلا رجل والعلوم والتكنولوجيا وأنبيائه

Last edited by McHrozni; 19th November 2019 at 01:05 AM.
McHrozni is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 19th November 2019, 01:22 AM   #13
McHrozni
Penultimate Amazing
 
Join Date: Jun 2009
Posts: 11,914
Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger View Post
I wonder if the US was involved at all. Boy, that's really taking us back to the 60s, Trump's favorite years.

I will however, await more information.
I sincierly doubt it. The situation looks similar to that in Venezuela. A populist leftlist took power and stretched it above and beyond democratic norms. Once his antics became unbearable the electorate denied him and the dictator and his ruling elite refused to acknowledge the reality of the sitution.

There's no need for any US involvement at all. The American involvement in Venezuela was exposed by WikiLeaks for all to see, the nefarious "coup attempt" amounted to helping a group of women attain some workplace rights that were guaranteed by the law and ignored by the state. Two more "nefarious operations" were exposed, in one the evil American agents helped an organization for the disabled people make Caracas more accessible to people with various disabilities, in the other they helped organize garbage removal from an impovrished area their government ignored. That was essentially the extent of American involvement.

That cable is routinely used as proof USA staged an attempted coup against Maduro. I guess the situation in Bolivia is similar.

McHrozni
__________________
لا إله إلا رجل والعلوم والتكنولوجيا وأنبيائه
McHrozni is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 19th November 2019, 05:03 AM   #14
SuburbanTurkey
Illuminator
 
SuburbanTurkey's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2018
Location: Massachusetts, USA
Posts: 4,920
Originally Posted by McHrozni View Post
I sincierly doubt it. The situation looks similar to that in Venezuela. A populist leftlist took power and stretched it above and beyond democratic norms. Once his antics became unbearable the electorate denied him and the dictator and his ruling elite refused to acknowledge the reality of the sitution.

There's no need for any US involvement at all. The American involvement in Venezuela was exposed by WikiLeaks for all to see, the nefarious "coup attempt" amounted to helping a group of women attain some workplace rights that were guaranteed by the law and ignored by the state. Two more "nefarious operations" were exposed, in one the evil American agents helped an organization for the disabled people make Caracas more accessible to people with various disabilities, in the other they helped organize garbage removal from an impovrished area their government ignored. That was essentially the extent of American involvement.

That cable is routinely used as proof USA staged an attempted coup against Maduro. I guess the situation in Bolivia is similar.

McHrozni
Morales was the plurality winner of the election, so he's not unpopular as you claim. The disputed election results had to do with whether he had won by at least 10% margin to avoid a runoff.

Originally Posted by McHrozni View Post

No, she was just the person Bolivian constitution, written in 2009 when Morales was president, says should take over in that situation. If following the constitution the 'ousted' president wrote is a coup, you're on the wrong side of the argument.
Yes, she was the person in line for succession after the military ran off both the president and vice president. A resignation at the point of a bayonet is not exactly what most would call the lawful transition of power.


Quote:
I can't find any evidence of either. I assume both are fake news. It would be nothing new for the propaganda site you cited.
Then you didn't look very hard. It was a public decree. Here's another source.
https://www.washingtonpost.com/world...8a3_story.html
The decree granting impunity to kill was issued on Nov 14. On Nov 15 the military opened fire on protests in Cochabamba, killing 9 and injuring dozens.


from wikipedia (the original sources are spanish, so some faith is required here):

"Arturo Murillo, Áñez’s new interior minister, vowed to “hunt down” his predecessor Juan Ramón Quintana, a prominent Morales ally, stoking fears of a “witch-hunt” against members of the previous administration.[64] He later announced he would start arresting certain members of the previous government who he accused of “subversion”.[73] Roxana Lizárraga, Áñez's communication minister, stated that she had a list of journalists who were "involved in sedition" and threatened them with persecution.[63]"


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2019_B...s#cite_note-73

New elections have yet to be scheduled. We'll see if the coup is really interested in honoring the constitution, which requires a new election in 90 days.
__________________
Gobble gobble

Last edited by SuburbanTurkey; 19th November 2019 at 05:16 AM.
SuburbanTurkey is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 19th November 2019, 05:21 AM   #15
kellyb
Penultimate Amazing
 
kellyb's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Posts: 12,632
Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger View Post
I wonder if the US was involved at all. Boy, that's really taking us back to the 60s, Trump's favorite years.

I will however, await more information.
You might like this twitter feed:
https://twitter.com/MaxBlumenthal

Here's who Max is:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Max_Blumenthal

Quote:
Max Blumenthal (born December 18, 1977) is an American author, journalist, and blogger. He was awarded the 2014 Lannan Foundation Cultural Freedom Notable Book Award for his book Goliath: Life and Loathing in Greater Israel (2013).[1][2] He was formerly a writer for AlterNet,[3] The Daily Beast, Al Akhbar, and Media Matters for America,[4] and was selected as a Fellow of the Nation Institute.[5] Blumenthal established The Grayzone in 2015 and continues to edit and write for the website
Also, check this out:

https://twitter.com/caitoz/status/1196252869864742912

(I can't completely write off the possibility that the video is people just acting, and the source, that Matt Binder guy, is up to something nefarious. But damn. Cait thinks he's legit, and I've never caught her being wrong or using a dubious source before, but nobody is perfect.)
__________________
"We are enjoined, no matter how uncomfortable it might be, to consider ourselves and our cultural institutions scientifically — not to accept uncritically whatever we’re told; to surmount as best we can our hopes, conceits, and unexamined beliefs; to view ourselves as we really are." - Carl Sagan

Last edited by kellyb; 19th November 2019 at 06:14 AM.
kellyb is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 19th November 2019, 05:31 AM   #16
SuburbanTurkey
Illuminator
 
SuburbanTurkey's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2018
Location: Massachusetts, USA
Posts: 4,920
Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger View Post
I wonder if the US was involved at all. Boy, that's really taking us back to the 60s, Trump's favorite years.

I will however, await more information.
Spanish posts from alleged Bolivian tagged with "Bolivia No Hay Golpe", which is "No coup in Bolivia" was trending on Twitter out of VA. Langley VA is where the CIA spooks are headquartered.

Sloppy work from the feds.

https://twitter.com/AllezLesBoulez/s...85622924939265
__________________
Gobble gobble
SuburbanTurkey is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 19th November 2019, 05:39 AM   #17
McHrozni
Penultimate Amazing
 
Join Date: Jun 2009
Posts: 11,914
Originally Posted by SuburbanTurkey View Post
Morales was the plurality winner of the election, so he's not unpopular as you claim. The disputed election results had to do with whether he had won by at least 10% margin to avoid a runoff.
The way the election was handled by authorities rises deep questions about whether or not the count was fair and there are allegations of widespread fraud that go unadressed by the officials. The count was suspended with no good reason and Morales declared the winner.

A clear winner with nothing to hide wouldn't need to do so.

Quote:
Yes, she was the person in line for succession after the military ran off both the president and vice president. A resignation at the point of a bayonet is not exactly what most would call the lawful transition of power.
Military?

There were three weeks of incessant protests, joined up by police who were apparently fed up with the government. How is that a military coup?


Then you didn't look very hard. It was a public decree. Here's another source.
https://www.washingtonpost.com/world...8a3_story.html[/quote]

Paywall, sorry.

Quote:
The decree granting impunity to kill was issued on Nov 14. On Nov 15 the military opened fire on protests in Cochabamba, killing 9 and injuring dozens.
I presume the actual news is along the lines of:

It is not a license for the Armed Forces to kill,” Presidency Minister Jerjes Justiniano told a press conference. He said the decree is based on the Criminal Code, which states that “if one defends oneself in self-defense, there is no penalty.”

https://apnews.com/530280a8d9674f58ad19af8d3f00edee

There's also this:

Protesters said police fired Friday when demonstrators tried to cross a military checkpoint in Sacaba, a town near Cochabamba.

Quote:
"Arturo Murillo, Áñez’s new interior minister, vowed to “hunt down” his predecessor Juan Ramón Quintana, a prominent Morales ally, stoking fears of a “witch-hunt” against members of the previous administration.[64] He later announced he would start arresting certain members of the previous government who he accused of “subversion”.[73] Roxana Lizárraga, Áñez's communication minister, stated that she had a list of journalists who were "involved in sedition" and threatened them with persecution.[63]"
Here's the claim from your post:
Añez has announced the formation of a "special apparatus" who's mission is to arrest members of the MAS party

Are you now changing the claim the goal of the apparatus is not to arrest members of the MAS party, but rather specific leaders, for whatever reason?

I'm asking because the two claims are like night and day.

Quote:
New elections have yet to be scheduled. We'll see if the coup is really interested in honoring the constitution, which requires a new election in 90 days.
For starters it's not a coup.

Then all the other things you posted from a clear propaganda site.

McHrozni
__________________
لا إله إلا رجل والعلوم والتكنولوجيا وأنبيائه
McHrozni is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 19th November 2019, 05:41 AM   #18
SuburbanTurkey
Illuminator
 
SuburbanTurkey's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2018
Location: Massachusetts, USA
Posts: 4,920
Just waiting to see what rationalization the "interim" government gives when they decide to postpone the election, prevent the MAS from running a candidate, or otherwise improperly entrench a right wing president.
__________________
Gobble gobble
SuburbanTurkey is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 19th November 2019, 06:00 AM   #19
Childlike Empress
Ewige Blumenkraft
 
Childlike Empress's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: Ivory Tower
Posts: 18,275
Originally Posted by SuburbanTurkey View Post
Spanish posts from alleged Bolivian tagged with "Bolivia No Hay Golpe", which is "No coup in Bolivia" was trending on Twitter out of VA. Langley VA is where the CIA spooks are headquartered.

Sloppy work from the feds.

https://twitter.com/AllezLesBoulez/s...85622924939265

68,000 fake twitter accounts have been detected:

Originally Posted by teleSUR
[...] [head of social networks for the Spanish party Podemos] Macías Tovar pointed out that Camacho's account went from 2,000 followers to 130,000 in 15 days, 50,000 of them created in November 2019.

The same thing happened with Áñez, who, in that period, went from having 8,000 followers to 150,000, of which 40,000 are newly created accounts.

When analyzing the false accounts of both politicians, Macías Tovar counted more than 68,000 different false accounts, which have not been detected by Twitter and are still operating, although the social network prohibits the use of robots to amplify messages. [...]
__________________
Audiatur et altera pars
Childlike Empress is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 19th November 2019, 06:29 AM   #20
McHrozni
Penultimate Amazing
 
Join Date: Jun 2009
Posts: 11,914
Originally Posted by Childlike Empress View Post
68,000 fake twitter accounts have been detected:
Telesur is about seven steps less credible than InfoWars. It has a different slant, that's all.

McHrozni
__________________
لا إله إلا رجل والعلوم والتكنولوجيا وأنبيائه
McHrozni is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 19th November 2019, 06:33 AM   #21
McHrozni
Penultimate Amazing
 
Join Date: Jun 2009
Posts: 11,914
Originally Posted by SuburbanTurkey View Post
Just waiting to see what rationalization the "interim" government gives when they decide to postpone the election, prevent the MAS from running a candidate, or otherwise improperly entrench a right wing president.
Right now the problem is the national board of elections is tainted by people who faked the previous election and the MAS majority in the parliament refuses to accept new ones.

http://www.xinhuanet.com/english/201..._138566401.htm

You can't run an election without electoral authorities and you can't run a democratic election when the electoral authorities blatantly favor one side. Yet, MAS is adamant nothing can be changed.

Bolivia's top electoral authority announced on Sunday night that Morales had won with 45.3% of the votes, with his closest rival, former President Carlos Mesa, coming in second with 38.2%. Morales fell short of clearing a 10-percentage-point difference with Mesa to avoid a runoff.

But on Monday, vote counting was suspended. Some 24 hours later, the electoral body said that Morales now led with 46.41% to Mesa's 37.06%, with 95% of the votes counted.


https://www.dw.com/en/eu-extremely-c...ote/a-50939495

The discrepancy went unaddressed. Clearly the electoral body must be replaced before any new elections.

I'm sure MAS will carry no blame with the 'sources' you and CE cite. "All they want is to win the election again, using the same corrupt methods they did to win all their elections. It's democracy, because their side wins." or something to that effect.

McHrozni
__________________
لا إله إلا رجل والعلوم والتكنولوجيا وأنبيائه

Last edited by McHrozni; 19th November 2019 at 06:34 AM.
McHrozni is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 19th November 2019, 06:59 AM   #22
Childlike Empress
Ewige Blumenkraft
 
Childlike Empress's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: Ivory Tower
Posts: 18,275
Originally Posted by McHrozni View Post
Telesur is about seven steps less credible than InfoWars. It has a different slant, that's all.



101. Aside from the nonsensical nature of your "opinion", the source is given in my snippet and linked in the article. Go find something to smear the head of social media of Podemos with.
__________________
Audiatur et altera pars
Childlike Empress is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 19th November 2019, 09:15 AM   #23
carlitos
"más divertido"
 
carlitos's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: USA! USA!
Posts: 22,270
Originally Posted by SuburbanTurkey View Post
Spanish posts from alleged Bolivian tagged with "Bolivia No Hay Golpe", which is "No coup in Bolivia" was trending on Twitter out of VA. Langley VA is where the CIA spooks are headquartered.

Sloppy work from the feds.

https://twitter.com/AllezLesBoulez/s...85622924939265
Take this nonsense to the CT forum.

1 - 70% of internet traffic goes through Virginia.
2 - The DC / Northern Virginia area is home to 40% of Bolivians in the USA.
carlitos is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 19th November 2019, 11:16 AM   #24
SuburbanTurkey
Illuminator
 
SuburbanTurkey's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2018
Location: Massachusetts, USA
Posts: 4,920
An opinion piece on why this should be considered a coup:

https://jacobinmag.com/2019/11/coup-...s-jeanine-anez
__________________
Gobble gobble
SuburbanTurkey is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 19th November 2019, 12:56 PM   #25
dudalb
Penultimate Amazing
 
dudalb's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Sacramento
Posts: 48,226
Why do I feel like playing a game of "Tropico"?
__________________
Pacifism is a shifty doctrine under which a man accepts the benefits of the social group without being willing to pay - and claims a halo for his dishonesty.

Robert Heinlein.
dudalb is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 19th November 2019, 01:36 PM   #26
ponderingturtle
Orthogonal Vector
 
ponderingturtle's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Posts: 49,145
Originally Posted by dudalb View Post
Why do I feel like playing a game of "Tropico"?
Or the west end games classic board game Junta.
__________________
Sufficiently advanced Woo is indistinguishable from Parody
"There shall be no *poofing* in science" Paul C. Anagnostopoulos
Force ***** on reasons back" Ben Franklin
ponderingturtle is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 19th November 2019, 01:49 PM   #27
timhau
NWO Litter Technician
 
timhau's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2004
Location: Looks like Finland. Smells like Finland. Quacks like Finland. Where the hell am I?
Posts: 13,658
Originally Posted by SuburbanTurkey View Post
Just waiting to see what rationalization the "interim" government gives when they decide to postpone the election, prevent the MAS from running a candidate, or otherwise improperly entrench a right wing president.
Let's condemn them if/when they do that. Let's not condemn them beforehand because they might.

And BTW, Morales shouldn't even have been a candidate anymore. Bolivia has term limits, but a friendly Supreme Court ruled that they don't apply to him because he's got to have the right to run.
__________________
When I was a kid I used to pray every night for a new bicycle. Then I realised that the Lord, in his wisdom, doesn't work that way. I just stole one and asked Him to forgive me.
- Emo Philips
timhau is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 19th November 2019, 01:53 PM   #28
carlitos
"más divertido"
 
carlitos's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: USA! USA!
Posts: 22,270
Term limits are for suckers.

- Hugo Chavez, probably
carlitos is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 19th November 2019, 01:58 PM   #29
ponderingturtle
Orthogonal Vector
 
ponderingturtle's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Posts: 49,145
Originally Posted by timhau View Post
Let's condemn them if/when they do that. Let's not condemn them beforehand because they might.

And BTW, Morales shouldn't even have been a candidate anymore. Bolivia has term limits, but a friendly Supreme Court ruled that they don't apply to him because he's got to have the right to run.
No they ruled that the term he was in office when the constitution was written didn't count toward the limits, rather like the 22 amendment didn't apply to Truman's first term, like it would apply if the same events happened later.

Then he had the law changed to permit more terms as president.

"Bolivia’s constitution, drawn up under Morales, sets a two-term limit. His first election victory was discounted from the tally, because it came under the previous constitution, allowing him to run successfully for a third term. Soon after, he tried clearing the way for another run at high office, with a 2016 referendum to abolish presidential term limits."

https://www.theguardian.com/world/20...enounce-a-coup
__________________
Sufficiently advanced Woo is indistinguishable from Parody
"There shall be no *poofing* in science" Paul C. Anagnostopoulos
Force ***** on reasons back" Ben Franklin
ponderingturtle is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 19th November 2019, 02:07 PM   #30
theprestige
Penultimate Amazing
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Hong Kong
Posts: 45,286
Originally Posted by SuburbanTurkey View Post
An opinion piece on why this should be considered a coup:

https://jacobinmag.com/2019/11/coup-...s-jeanine-anez
Why is calling it a coup so important to you? Is there some aspect of this discussion that changes significantly, if we agree that it's a coup? Some crucial piece of information that's missing, if we don't call it a coup in so many words?
theprestige is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 19th November 2019, 03:25 PM   #31
Childlike Empress
Ewige Blumenkraft
 
Childlike Empress's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: Ivory Tower
Posts: 18,275
Originally Posted by carlitos View Post
Term limits are for suckers.

- Hugo Chavez Angela Merkel, probably

FTFY

As it is so rare I want to point out that I agree with dudalb ... on feeling like playing a game of "Tropico" right now.
__________________
Audiatur et altera pars
Childlike Empress is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 19th November 2019, 03:28 PM   #32
Childlike Empress
Ewige Blumenkraft
 
Childlike Empress's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: Ivory Tower
Posts: 18,275
Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
Why is calling it a coup so important to you? Is there some aspect of this discussion that changes significantly, if we agree that it's a coup? Some crucial piece of information that's missing, if we don't call it a coup in so many words?

It's a bit like calling your post a post.
__________________
Audiatur et altera pars
Childlike Empress is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 19th November 2019, 04:09 PM   #33
dudalb
Penultimate Amazing
 
dudalb's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Sacramento
Posts: 48,226
Wow, Coup in a unstable Latin American Country. That never happened before....
__________________
Pacifism is a shifty doctrine under which a man accepts the benefits of the social group without being willing to pay - and claims a halo for his dishonesty.

Robert Heinlein.
dudalb is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 19th November 2019, 04:17 PM   #34
Childlike Empress
Ewige Blumenkraft
 
Childlike Empress's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: Ivory Tower
Posts: 18,275
Originally Posted by dudalb View Post
Wow, Coup in a unstable Latin American Country. That never happened before....

You know what happens if you give free housing and other goodies to the people. Because you played Tropico. No, wait, likely you never tried and never won (winning is equal to being a good head of state for 50 years in Tropico, without being overthrown by the people, the US or the USSR). Evo managed about 13. And I win all the time.
__________________
Audiatur et altera pars

Last edited by Childlike Empress; 19th November 2019 at 04:19 PM.
Childlike Empress is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 19th November 2019, 11:54 PM   #35
McHrozni
Penultimate Amazing
 
Join Date: Jun 2009
Posts: 11,914
Originally Posted by SuburbanTurkey View Post
An opinion piece on why this should be considered a coup:

https://jacobinmag.com/2019/11/coup-...s-jeanine-anez
Right off the bat, we see this:

Morales was elected to his third term in 2014 by the highest percentage of votes — 63 percent — of any free election since universal suffrage

Repeat after me. The fact Morales won in 2014 does not mean his 'reelection' in 2019 was free or fair.

Got that? Let's try this again. The fact Morales won in 2014 does not mean his 'reelection' in 2019 was free or fair.

At this point I can make a prediction: It's a coup because a guy they support lost. He then goes on to quote CEPR as an source of independent analysis.

http://cepr.net/press-center/press-r...analysis-shows

CEPR is not known for being independent or unbiased.

http://cepr.net/publications/reports...e-of-venezuela
http://cepr.net/blogs/the-americas-b...onse-to-trolls

CEPR a propaganda mouthpiece for the Latin American left, financed by Venezuelan oil and other vested interests. Yet the author of the opinion piece cites the propaganda rag as 'independent analysis'. It is neither. Most of the remainder is about a coup in Bolivia that happened in 1964. The reasoning goes: there was a coup in Bolivia in 1964, therefore the events in Bolivia in 2019 are also a coup.

In other words, my initial prediction has borne out and then some. The Jacobin is a just another propaganda rag, nothing more.

Furthermore, if you believe Trump's administration is capable of carrying out a coup against a popular president I have a bridge to sell you.

McHrozni
__________________
لا إله إلا رجل والعلوم والتكنولوجيا وأنبيائه

Last edited by McHrozni; 19th November 2019 at 11:56 PM.
McHrozni is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 19th November 2019, 11:58 PM   #36
McHrozni
Penultimate Amazing
 
Join Date: Jun 2009
Posts: 11,914
Originally Posted by Childlike Empress View Post
You know what happens if you give free housing and other goodies to the people. Because you played Tropico. No, wait, likely you never tried and never won (winning is equal to being a good head of state for 50 years in Tropico, without being overthrown by the people, the US or the USSR). Evo managed about 13. And I win all the time.
If you play beyond those 50 years you can see why free housing and other goodies are a bad idea in the long run. However leftlist activists somehow convinced themselves the world remains static and once those issues have been taken care of no problems remain to be solved. It's almost as if they thought Tropico was a fair and accurate simulator of a proper state, not a game meant to entertain, with inherent limits to the programming.

McHrozni
__________________
لا إله إلا رجل والعلوم والتكنولوجيا وأنبيائه
McHrozni is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 20th November 2019, 04:58 AM   #37
Childlike Empress
Ewige Blumenkraft
 
Childlike Empress's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: Ivory Tower
Posts: 18,275
Originally Posted by McHrozni View Post
If you play beyond those 50 years you can see why free housing and other goodies are a bad idea in the long run.

I know. The island quickly gets too small then.
__________________
Audiatur et altera pars
Childlike Empress is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 20th November 2019, 05:01 AM   #38
SuburbanTurkey
Illuminator
 
SuburbanTurkey's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2018
Location: Massachusetts, USA
Posts: 4,920
Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
Why is calling it a coup so important to you? Is there some aspect of this discussion that changes significantly, if we agree that it's a coup? Some crucial piece of information that's missing, if we don't call it a coup in so many words?
Mostly because there has been a campaign to deny that it is a coup.

It's not a trivial distinction. A coup government is not a legitimate government and could affect how the rest of the world engages in diplomacy with Bolivia.
__________________
Gobble gobble
SuburbanTurkey is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 20th November 2019, 05:14 AM   #39
McHrozni
Penultimate Amazing
 
Join Date: Jun 2009
Posts: 11,914
Originally Posted by Childlike Empress View Post
I know. The island quickly gets too small then.
It's a pity you can't appreciate that metaphor.

McHrozni
__________________
لا إله إلا رجل والعلوم والتكنولوجيا وأنبيائه
McHrozni is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 20th November 2019, 05:19 AM   #40
McHrozni
Penultimate Amazing
 
Join Date: Jun 2009
Posts: 11,914
Originally Posted by SuburbanTurkey View Post
Mostly because there has been a campaign to deny that it is a coup.

It's not a trivial distinction. A coup government is not a legitimate government and could affect how the rest of the world engages in diplomacy with Bolivia.
It's common among left-wing propagandists to denounce every change of power to someone they don't like as a "coup". By now they've successfully dilluted the meaning of the word to the point of irrelevance.

What is happening in Bolivia is a very strange electoral procedure with opaque and unexplainable results with their electoral authorities. The legislators show no interest in either exploring the strange results or restoring faith in elections and prefer to push "it's a coup!!1" narrative.

Any comparison with the narrative of the GOP regarding impeachment of Trump is not at all coincidential.

McHrozni
__________________
لا إله إلا رجل والعلوم والتكنولوجيا وأنبيائه
McHrozni is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Reply

International Skeptics Forum » General Topics » Non-USA & General Politics

Bookmarks

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump


All times are GMT -7. The time now is 08:42 AM.
Powered by vBulletin. Copyright ©2000 - 2020, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.

This forum began as part of the James Randi Education Foundation (JREF). However, the forum now exists as
an independent entity with no affiliation with or endorsement by the JREF, including the section in reference to "JREF" topics.

Disclaimer: Messages posted in the Forum are solely the opinion of their authors.