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Old 20th November 2019, 03:19 PM   #41
smartcooky
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I use the word "cyan" a lot but that is just because in my trade, cyan, magenta and yellow are key parts of everyday subject material

"this photo needs more/less cyan"
"the photo-cyan cartridge is low on dye"
"the cyan filter is stuck/broken"



etc

In this country the "amber" light is more often referred to as the "orange" light.

Also, I think our lights work a little differently from some other countries... the orange light comes on for about 6 seconds after the green light goes out and before the red light comes on. At no time is more than one light on..... green > orange > red > green
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Old 20th November 2019, 03:27 PM   #42
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Originally Posted by JeanTate View Post
Somewhere I can't find now, is a fascinating study of color names in languages and their progression (i.e. from whatever historical linguistics is called).

From memory, black/white is the earliest and most widely used name(s). Then comes red (the ancient Greek use of 'wine red sea' has nothing to do with people then not noting that the color of the sea is nothing like that of blood, for example). Blue/green is one of the latest/last distinctions, and is not consistent across languages (in some there's more than two names, used very consistently).

<snip>
Despite its clear limitations, the WP entry Linguistic relativity and the color naming debate points to the likely source of what I remember. Specifically, the progression idea comes from a 1969 book by Berlin and Kay. I haven't followed through, but it seems that - like a lot of 1960s results - the idea has held up, um, sorta. Like what I remember about "Ba" and "Ma" (and similar) being universal names for father and mother, respectively ... further work turned up a number of languages in which this pair is switched.

Re green vs blue, WP's entry is interesting: Blue–green distinction in language.
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Old 20th November 2019, 03:51 PM   #43
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Originally Posted by sphenisc View Post
As I understand it the "boundary" between yellow and red lay somewhere in what we now call orange. Hence the robin redbreast*, which has an orange breast.

*European robin (Erithacus rubecula)
This drawing of the robin appears russet to me... approaching red. Most photos show something closer to orange.

Anyway, the type specimen for this species may have appeared more reddish than orangish.

https://www.rspb.org.uk/birds-and-wi...bird-a-z/robin

Here is an engraving from 1853. The bird looks more red than orange.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Europe...:Redbreast.jpg
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Old 20th November 2019, 04:15 PM   #44
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Originally Posted by William Parcher View Post
My understanding of the claim is that before Old English they simply had no name for the color we call orange. To me that means that they didn't call it "amber", or "like amber", or "Fred", or anything. They simply said nothing at all.

I find that to be an extraordinary claim and I am skeptical. Maybe I don't understand the claim.
They probably at least called things "carrot-colored" or "goose's bill-colored," or using the name of an orange flower when describing something they saw. I seem to remember reading a lot of really old texts where people described things frequently by saying "with the color of a ___".

It might not have made it into the written record, but people almost always find ways of communicating (however clumsily) whatever concept is in their head.
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Old 20th November 2019, 04:44 PM   #45
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Originally Posted by kellyb View Post
They probably at least called things "carrot-colored" or "goose's bill-colored," or using the name of an orange flower when describing something they saw. I seem to remember reading a lot of really old texts where people described things frequently by saying "with the color of a ___".

It might not have made it into the written record, but people almost always find ways of communicating (however clumsily) whatever concept is in their head.
Ok, let's pretend that way back then they did use the terms "carrot colored" or "the color of a carrot" when speaking about the color we call orange...

A person picks an orange flower and asks "what color is this?" The other person correctly answers "carrot colored"...

But then within a minute the same person picks a carrot and asks "what color is this?"...

What would the answer have been?


(The funny answer would be "flower colored", but I'm being serious)
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Old 20th November 2019, 04:51 PM   #46
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Green traffic lights are green. Blue traffic lights are blue. If you ever find yourself in a jurisdiction where green traffic lights are blue, roll with it.
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Old 20th November 2019, 04:54 PM   #47
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Originally Posted by William Parcher
A person picks an orange flower and asks "what color is this?" The other person correctly answers "carrot colored"...

But then within a minute the same person picks a carrot and asks "what color is this?"...
carrot -> orange?

turquoise -> turquoise?

(there are a lot of the latter, in contemporary English anyway).

Last edited by JeanTate; 20th November 2019 at 05:02 PM. Reason: add quote
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Old 20th November 2019, 05:31 PM   #48
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Originally Posted by JeanTate View Post
carrot -> orange?

turquoise -> turquoise?

(there are a lot of the latter, in contemporary English anyway).
I'm not sure that you answered my question from the old days of Olde English.

Again... the carrot is held up (right after that flower) and the question is asked "what color is this?"
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Old 20th November 2019, 05:41 PM   #49
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I worked in printing for 10 years, years ago.
seeing the terms cyan, magenta, yellow and K black have warmed my heart a bit, thx.
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Old 20th November 2019, 05:46 PM   #50
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Originally Posted by William Parcher View Post
I'm not sure that you answered my question from the old days of Olde English.

Again... the carrot is held up (right after that flower) and the question is asked "what color is this?"
True.

I have very little familiarity with either Middle English or Old English. However, one site says this about the origin of the name of the color we today call "orange" (source):

"This color’s name derives from the Sanskrit word for the fruit naranga. (Yes, the color orange was named after the fruit, not the other way around). This transformed into the Arabic and Persian naranj, and by the time of Old French to pomme d’orenge. It was originally recorded in English as the name of the color in 1512. Before then, the English speaking world referred to the orange color as geoluhread, which literally translates to “yellow-red.”"

Assuming that Old English transitioned to Middle English some time after 1066, I think the answer would have been geoluhread.
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Old 20th November 2019, 05:53 PM   #51
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Originally Posted by JeanTate View Post
Somewhere I can't find now, is a fascinating study of color names in languages and their progression (i.e. from whatever historical linguistics is called).

From memory, black/white is the earliest and most widely used name(s). Then comes red (the ancient Greek use of 'wine red sea' has nothing to do with people then not noting that the color of the sea is nothing like that of blood, for example). Blue/green is one of the latest/last distinctions, and is not consistent across languages (in some there's more than two names, used very consistently).
My guess is that you are thinking of "Ancient Color Categories" from the "Encyclopedia of Color Science and Technology".

http://imbs.uci.edu/~kjameson/ECST/W...Categories.pdf
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Old 20th November 2019, 05:57 PM   #52
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Originally Posted by William Parcher View Post
Did they just use a different word? What was their word for the color of orange flowers and orange leaves, etc?
"Geoluread" (yellow-red)
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Old 20th November 2019, 05:59 PM   #53
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I'm suddenly reminded of a joke that I made up a long time ago in a restaurant with friends. This was back when ostrich meat was a new thing in America and it was supposed to become popular because it was a new lean meat that could be raised on farms. I had never seen it on a menu but there it was on this menu.

I read the listing that described it and it included that it "tastes like beef". I immediately chuckled as the joke appeared in my head. I looked up and said to my friends, "They've got ostrich on the menu. It says that it tastes like beef. But look at the list of steaks. None of those say that they taste like ostrich. WTF!" Huge laughter and like they couldn't stop laughing at that.

Ostrich tastes like beef, but beef doesn't taste like ostrich.
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Old 20th November 2019, 06:03 PM   #54
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Originally Posted by JeanTate View Post
True.

I have very little familiarity with either Middle English or Old English. However, one site says this about the origin of the name of the color we today call "orange" (source):

"This color’s name derives from the Sanskrit word for the fruit naranga. (Yes, the color orange was named after the fruit, not the other way around). This transformed into the Arabic and Persian naranj, and by the time of Old French to pomme d’orenge. It was originally recorded in English as the name of the color in 1512. Before then, the English speaking world referred to the orange color as geoluhread, which literally translates to “yellow-red.”"

Assuming that Old English transitioned to Middle English some time after 1066, I think the answer would have been geoluhread.
Excellent. Claims that they didn't have a word for orange are false.
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Old 20th November 2019, 06:26 PM   #55
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Originally Posted by William Parcher View Post
Excellent. Claims that they didn't have a word for orange are false.
And by the way, Japanese does have a word for vegetable green, or verdant: "Midori."
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Old 20th November 2019, 06:41 PM   #56
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Originally Posted by smartcooky View Post
I use the word "cyan" a lot but that is just because in my trade, cyan, magenta and yellow are key parts of everyday subject material

"this photo needs more/less cyan"
"the photo-cyan cartridge is low on dye"
"the cyan filter is stuck/broken"



etc

In this country the "amber" light is more often referred to as the "orange" light.

Also, I think our lights work a little differently from some other countries... the orange light comes on for about 6 seconds after the green light goes out and before the red light comes on. At no time is more than one light on..... green > orange > red > green
Around here, when we say a light was "orange", it's a self-justification that means it had already changed from yellow to red before we sped through the intersection trying to beat the light.
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Old 20th November 2019, 06:48 PM   #57
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Originally Posted by William Parcher View Post
I'm not sure that you answered my question from the old days of Olde English.

Again... the carrot is held up (right after that flower) and the question is asked "what color is this?"
I suppose there are occasional instances where a thing used to name a color must have its color named, but why is it a problem? What color is this carrot? It's the color we call "carrot" has no less meaning that if you said the color is orange or calendula or Pantone 15-1263.
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Old 20th November 2019, 06:49 PM   #58
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Originally Posted by alfaniner View Post
Around here, when we say a light was "orange", it's a self-justification that means it had already changed from yellow to red before we sped through the intersection trying to beat the light.
In my circle we call that "pink."
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Old 20th November 2019, 06:50 PM   #59
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It's another tiny piece of evidence for the gradual shift of Australian popular culture from British influence to American influence that I grew up calling the middle light amber, and I was taught that in school, but today I hear it more often referred to as yellow.
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Old 20th November 2019, 07:01 PM   #60
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Originally Posted by bruto View Post
I suppose there are occasional instances where a thing used to name a color must have its color named, but why is it a problem? What color is this carrot? It's the color we call "carrot" has no less meaning that if you said the color is orange or calendula or Pantone 15-1263.
I don't have any problem with that.

The only problem is that there seems to be (or could be) people who think that in the very old days the people did not have a word for the color that we now call orange.
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Old 20th November 2019, 08:10 PM   #61
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Old 20th November 2019, 08:24 PM   #62
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Originally Posted by kellyb View Post
They probably at least called things "carrot-colored" or "goose's bill-colored," or using the name of an orange flower when describing something they saw. I seem to remember reading a lot of really old texts where people described things frequently by saying "with the color of a ___".



It might not have made it into the written record, but people almost always find ways of communicating (however clumsily) whatever concept is in their head.
Carrots were not orange back in the olden times.
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Old 20th November 2019, 08:41 PM   #63
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Originally Posted by Darat View Post
Carrots were not orange back in the olden times.
I don't even want to read about the olden times. Because I'm going to find out that the name they used for hedgehogs was "Froot Loops".
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Old 20th November 2019, 08:46 PM   #64
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Originally Posted by William Parcher View Post
I'm suddenly reminded of a joke that I made up a long time ago in a restaurant with friends. This was back when ostrich meat was a new thing in America and it was supposed to become popular because it was a new lean meat that could be raised on farms. I had never seen it on a menu but there it was on this menu.

I read the listing that described it and it included that it "tastes like beef". I immediately chuckled as the joke appeared in my head. I looked up and said to my friends, "They've got ostrich on the menu. It says that it tastes like beef. But look at the list of steaks. None of those say that they taste like ostrich. WTF!" Huge laughter and like they couldn't stop laughing at that.

Ostrich tastes like beef, but beef doesn't taste like ostrich.
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Old 20th November 2019, 09:00 PM   #65
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The family gathers around the newborn baby girl and aunts and uncles are there too. Numerous times it is said, "Brenda, your new daughter looks just like you."

Seemingly unacceptable and unlikely to be heard, "Brenda, you look just like your new daughter."
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Old 20th November 2019, 09:11 PM   #66
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Originally Posted by William Parcher View Post
Excellent. Claims that they didn't have a word for orange are false.
But not a monolexemic word.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Color_...ic_color_terms

Quote:
However, in the classic study of Brent Berlin and Paul Kay (1969), Basic Color Terms: Their Universality and Evolution ,[2] the researchers argued that these differences can be organized into a coherent hierarchy, and that there are a limited number of universal basic colour terms which begin to be used by individual cultures in a relatively fixed order. Berlin and Kay based their analysis on a comparison of colour words in 20 languages from around the world. To be considered a basic colour term, the words had to be

monolexemic ("green", but not "light green" or "forest green"),
high-frequency, and
agreed upon by speakers of that language.

. . .

Berlin and Kay's study further identified a culture state of color term recognition into stages (I-VII). Stage I only covers two terms white and black; these terms are referenced broadly to describe other undefined color terms. For example, the Jale highland group in New Guinea identify the color of blood as black. This is because at this stage I, white and black, are associated with which objects closer associates to the degree of brightness from which it has.[clarification needed]

With stage II the recognition of another term red is developed. Objects are less consternated to their degree of brightness for classification and instead in this stage we see each term cover a larger scope of colors. Specifically blue and other darker shades described as black, yellow/orange colors lumped together with red, and the colors similar to white as white.

At stage III the identification of another term is acquired. The newly acquired term differs but usually with either green (III a) or yellow (III b). At this stage, there are more cultures who recognize yellow rather than green first. Currently, there are two languages which identify green first, the Ibiobio Nigerian language and the Philippine language of Mindoro, Hanunoo.

At stage IV, whichever of the two terms (green or yellow) not acquired at stage III is now acquired, bringing the total terms to five.

In short, their analysis showed that in a culture with only two terms, they would roughly correlate with "dark" (covering black, dark colors, and cold colors such as blue) and "bright" (covering white, light colors, and warm colors such as red). All languages with three colors terms would add red to this distinction. Thus, the three most basic colors are black, white, and red. Additional color terms are added in a fixed order as a language evolves: first one of green or yellow; then the other of green or yellow; then blue. All languages distinguishing six colors contain terms for black, white, red, green, yellow, and blue. These colors roughly correspond to the sensitivities of the retinal ganglion cells, leading Berlin and Kay to argue that color naming is not merely a cultural phenomenon, but is one that is also constrained by biology—that is, language is shaped by perception. A 2012 study[9] suggested that the origin of this hierarchy may be tied to human vision and the time ordering in which these color names get accepted or agreed upon in a population perfectly matches the order predicted by the hierarchy.

As languages develop, they next adopt a term for brown; then terms for orange, pink, purple or gray, in any order.[10] Finally, a basic light/dark relativistic term appears: such as "light" blue / "dark" blue (in comparison to blue sky / blue ocean), or "pale" red / "deep" red.
Doesn't appear to hold for Japanese though, since the Japanese word for blue is older than their word for green, and originally included green (any color from blue to green could be called ao (青); midori (緑) for green came later).
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Old 21st November 2019, 05:02 AM   #67
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Originally Posted by Puppycow View Post
Doesn't appear to hold for Japanese though, since the Japanese word for blue is older than their word for green, and originally included green (any color from blue to green could be called ao (青); midori (緑) for green came later).
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Old 21st November 2019, 05:54 AM   #68
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When I hear "Midori" I can only think of a musician or a drink.
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Old 21st November 2019, 06:00 AM   #69
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Originally Posted by alfaniner View Post
When I hear "Midori" I can only think of a musician or a drink.
But is Midori, the drink or the musician, midori?
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Old 21st November 2019, 06:15 AM   #70
JeanTate
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Originally Posted by Puppycow View Post
But not a monolexemic word.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Color_...ic_color_terms



Doesn't appear to hold for Japanese though, since the Japanese word for blue is older than their word for green, and originally included green (any color from blue to green could be called ao (青); midori (緑) for green came later).
Yeah, as noted in a couple of posts upstream, the Berlin and Kay hypothesis (or whatever) doesn't hold universally.

We have at least two professional linguists among our membership, don't we?

I'm curious to learn what the limits of historical linguistics are, given that the vast majority of languages had no written form until quite recently (all those Aboriginal Australian ones, Papuan ones, Amazonian forest ones, ... Yes, bouquets for the extraordinary work in reconstructing PIE, but what chance is there that some 5,000 year old ancestor of Pitjantjatjara, say, can be reconstructed?

And even for languages for which there is a (long) historical record, how can we say for certain how color words were used colloquially (there are surely a few for which we can have considerable confidence)?

In languages still spoken, in which there are only black/white words, how is the sky described? Blood? Tree leaves, especially deciduous ones? A sunset or sunrise? Where fruits are abundant and eaten, one kind from another? Ripe from not?
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Old 21st November 2019, 06:27 AM   #71
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Personally, I think they're teal.
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Old 21st November 2019, 06:52 AM   #72
Greebo
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Originally Posted by p0lka View Post
I worked in printing for 10 years, years ago.
seeing the terms cyan, magenta, yellow and K black have warmed my heart a bit, thx.
Yup same here - seeing CMYK reminds me of when I was a colour matcher.

Red shade blue, blue shade red, green shade grey - the language used was fairly accurate. I may still have a Pantone book at home
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Old 21st November 2019, 07:24 AM   #73
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*shudder*

I still have nightmares about a company's trademark blue color. One of my jobs was for a printing shop that did their adverts. I still recall the pain-in-the-ass it was to coordinate colors precisely between: Macintosh systems in Ad design, the wide-format color laser in ad design, the monitors in the proofing department, the monitors on the RIP processors, the wide-format dye-sub printer used for proofing, all the way out to the actual, huge, floor-to-ceiling newsprint printing presses.
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Old 21st November 2019, 07:26 AM   #74
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Originally Posted by Puppycow View Post
But not a monolexemic word.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Color_...ic_color_terms



Doesn't appear to hold for Japanese though, since the Japanese word for blue is older than their word for green, and originally included green (any color from blue to green could be called ao (青); midori (緑) for green came later).
It could be that "ao" first meant green then came to mean both blue and green at which point, they invented a new word for green. Which would make less of an exception to the rule.
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Old 21st November 2019, 07:32 AM   #75
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The one on the website looks more like teal than cyan to me, to be honest.

But then most of us men wouldn't know such fine distinctions in shades if they bit us in the rear. I learned about colours like teal, alpaca and whatnot only when I started to do graphics modding for games. I still wonder if that means modding makes me gay or something
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Old 21st November 2019, 07:39 AM   #76
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Originally Posted by HansMustermann View Post
The one on the website looks more like teal than cyan to me, to be honest.

But then most of us men wouldn't know such fine distinctions in shades if they bit us in the rear. I learned about colours like teal, alpaca and whatnot only when I started to do graphics modding for games. I still wonder if that means modding makes me gay or something
I think you have to be Admining for that to happen.
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Old 21st November 2019, 07:42 AM   #77
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Originally Posted by Hellbound View Post
*shudder*

I still have nightmares about a company's trademark blue color. One of my jobs was for a printing shop that did their adverts. I still recall the pain-in-the-ass it was to coordinate colors precisely between: Macintosh systems in Ad design, the wide-format color laser in ad design, the monitors in the proofing department, the monitors on the RIP processors, the wide-format dye-sub printer used for proofing, all the way out to the actual, huge, floor-to-ceiling newsprint printing presses.
That wouldn't have been for the "Today" paper in the UK would it?
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Old 21st November 2019, 07:43 AM   #78
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Originally Posted by Greebo View Post
That wouldn't have been for the "Today" paper in the UK would it?
Nope. We did newspaper sale ads for a U.S.-based grocery chain. Like the newspaper inserts full of coupons and stuff? That kinda thing.
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Old 21st November 2019, 07:45 AM   #79
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Originally Posted by Hellbound View Post
*shudder*

I still have nightmares about a company's trademark blue color. One of my jobs was for a printing shop that did their adverts. I still recall the pain-in-the-ass it was to coordinate colors precisely between: Macintosh systems in Ad design, the wide-format color laser in ad design, the monitors in the proofing department, the monitors on the RIP processors, the wide-format dye-sub printer used for proofing, all the way out to the actual, huge, floor-to-ceiling newsprint printing presses.
I'd think that the monitor colors wouldn't matter that much, unless the execs are using those particular monitors to proof the prints. (Oh, I see you mentioned that above.). Was there a hardcopy recipe that was used for printing of all types?
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Old 21st November 2019, 07:47 AM   #80
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Originally Posted by alfaniner View Post
I'd think that the monitor colors wouldn't matter that much, unless the execs are using those particular monitors to proof the prints. (Oh, I see you mentioned that above.). Was there a hardcopy recipe that was used for printing of all types?
Not sure what you mean by recipe. I just remember having to visit multiple locations throughout our process with a colorimeter and adjusting monitor display values. I didn't handle the inks or printers directly (I was IT), but I adjusted the software settings for various things to make sure the monitors matched the printer output, and they all matched each other.

ETA: Because apparnetly certain colors are trademarked by their PANTONE values, so if that sucker if off-color by one on the CMYK values...we definitely heard about it from our clients. Literally, differences the human eye can't detect (less than the effect of, say, leaving the newspaper on your car dash on a sunny day) were a big deal.
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