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#81 |
Philosopher
Join Date: Jan 2006
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Paranormal beliefs are knowledge placebos. Rumours of a god’s existence have been greatly exaggerated. To make truth from beliefs is to make truth mere make-believe. |
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#82 |
Philosopher
Join Date: Feb 2004
Posts: 9,125
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No, I never wondered at all about that. But then again, I'm not the one who accepts only this defintion of atheism as valid: "Doesn't believe in a god or gods." So apart from the addition to your silly definition: "Has a human brain and doesn't believe in a god or gods," I guess that you will now also have to add: "except when they are sleeping, but not if they're in the REM phase and happen to dream about gods. However, in that case they'll revert to atheism when they wake up." (By the way, I wouldn't have any problem at all with calling an alien who didn't believe in gods an atheist, not even a transgender alien, and I'm pretty sure that it would be easier to have a sensible conversation with it than with the two of you, but I could say the same thing about somebody who's comatose. I still have to meet an atheist alien, though.) |
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/dann "Stupidity renders itself invisible by assuming very large proportions. Completely unreasonable claims are irrefutable. Ni-en-leh pointed out that a philosopher might get into trouble by claiming that two times two makes five, but he does not risk much by claiming that two times two makes shoe polish." B. Brecht "The abolition of religion as the illusory happiness of the people is required for their real happiness. The demand to give up the illusion about its condition is the demand to give up a condition which needs illusions." K. Marx |
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#83 |
Philosopher
Join Date: Jan 2006
Posts: 8,344
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Sorry my mistake. That should read "Atheism = No/lack of belief in a god or gods". Atheism is a concept. It's an atheist that "doesn't believe".
"Has a human brain" obviously only applies to humans like theists and atheists, not to concepts like theism and atheism. |
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Paranormal beliefs are knowledge placebos. Rumours of a god’s existence have been greatly exaggerated. To make truth from beliefs is to make truth mere make-believe. |
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#84 |
Observer of Phenomena
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I think a bunch of people here are concentrating on the wrong question. Whether a baby is born atheist or not is irrelevant. What we actually want to know is whether human beings have an innate tendency to see supernatural agency. And I think the fact that there has never been a human civilisation which has not had some sort of supernatural belief system strongly suggests that they do.
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Self-described nerd. Pronouns: He/Him My mom told me she tries never to make fun of people for not knowing something. - Randall Munroe |
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#85 |
Philosopher
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: Mesa, AZ
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Yes. A very strong tendency to posit a transcendence of the mere empirical and give that personal content.
Even many Atheists functionally do that by identifying with their own consciousness as a persisting entity, even if mortal. I've often seen people on this board declare matter the substance or substratum of their self. (Materialism being a metaphysical or ontological assertion of what that which is behind the empirical is made of.) Or by insisting upon a metaphysical, above-animal Free Will. Self as a spirit, or something in the mode of spirit is the root of the concept of gods, even if you're an atheist but unconsciously regard your self as one. So as I've said, self is projected upon natural objects, processes, and elements. Self is projected as a spirit that transcends the empirical form. A Great Spirit is projected for Nature as a cosmic body. Or the objectified Transcendence becomes a content outside the physical world: a tinkerer, designer, or creator in the image of Human activity and interaction. This is especially strong, because storytelling is older for our species than rational explanations. The temptation to posit a Protagonist is very strong and takes a good deal of awareness to counter. Personally, I've felt the presence of God many times. I can at will put myself in such a state of consciousness. I can also at will feel the spirit of a tree. It's in knowing what I'm doing that these experiences don't still make a theist of me. I have a felt sense of those personal feelings having such a stamp of reality that I know better than to argue with a person who cites them as their reason to believe. Until they invest in some self-scrutiny, they will believe, rationalize that belief, and force fit empirical fact to it. The story is too enchanting. BTW fear of thunderstorms and waving a magic feather at the clouds to produce rain was never the cause of my theism. Though I confess it was comforting to turn my worries over to a heavenly parent. Since those days I've learned accept reality. |
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"At the Supreme Court level where we work, 90 percent of any decision is emotional. The rational part of us supplies the reasons for supporting our predilections." Justice William O. Douglas "Humans aren't rational creatures but rationalizing creatures." Author Unknown |
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#86 |
Schrödinger's cat
Join Date: May 2004
Location: Malmesbury, UK
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"If you trust in yourself ... and believe in your dreams ... and follow your star ... you'll still get beaten by people who spent their time working hard and learning things" - Terry Pratchett |
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#87 |
Philosopher
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Who made you the authority on what's right or relevant in this thread?
![]() Obviously they DID in more ignorant and superstitious previous civilizations, but they DO so far less in more educated and knowledgeable current civilizations (western at least). I think god beliefs are more a tendency to adopt a current cultural belief system than they are an innate tendency we are born with. I and others I know have no such innate tendency. If a thousand modern truth/science driven atheists started an isolated civilization I don't see any reason to expect it would every become theistic. |
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Paranormal beliefs are knowledge placebos. Rumours of a god’s existence have been greatly exaggerated. To make truth from beliefs is to make truth mere make-believe. |
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#88 |
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Posts: 8,344
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Deleted
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Paranormal beliefs are knowledge placebos. Rumours of a god’s existence have been greatly exaggerated. To make truth from beliefs is to make truth mere make-believe. |
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#89 |
Philosopher
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__________________
Paranormal beliefs are knowledge placebos. Rumours of a god’s existence have been greatly exaggerated. To make truth from beliefs is to make truth mere make-believe. |
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#90 |
Philosopher
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: Mesa, AZ
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Certainly not as long as long as the kept the momentum of Science and Rationalism, and maintained a single culture. I'd expect outliers, individuals who made of their mystical experiences something more than scientific explanations for such. Some individuals would certainly gravitate toward notions of a reality outside Science and find their own religious terms to speak of that. And a charismatic guru could find a following of people so inclined. But if the culture maintained a solid education in rational thinking and the suspension of narrative (mythical) thinking, it would not go Theistic.
(Though if the outliers went off on their own to another continent …) |
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"At the Supreme Court level where we work, 90 percent of any decision is emotional. The rational part of us supplies the reasons for supporting our predilections." Justice William O. Douglas "Humans aren't rational creatures but rationalizing creatures." Author Unknown |
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#91 |
Suspended
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#92 |
Philosopher
Join Date: May 2016
Location: Brisbane, Aust.
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Well as the starter of this thread I suppose I have some authority about what questions are relevant. ![]() I think that a baby starting off as an atheist is relevant and the environment the child is born into relevant also. I am sure Muslims will think the obvious default is to believe in God as described by Mohamed - the proof being that almost 100% of children in Islamic countries do so. Likewise Christians in overwhelmingly Christian countries (not that easy to find anymore) think the same in Christ God favour. We find now however, in the newly emerging secular countries, that children are defaulting to zero belief in any kind of god, in increasing numbers. This I think is what Clive was inspired by, when he made the statement. |
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Thinking is a faith hazard. |
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#93 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Aug 2007
Posts: 39,617
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A lot of wealthy people are superstitious.
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#94 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Aug 2007
Posts: 39,617
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Your addition is incorrect.
"Religion" is not necessarily a supernatural belief. For example, communism is not a supernatural belief, but devotion to the ideology of communism can lead a society to all the same excesses as an entrenched theocracy: Dogma. Totalitarianism. Ideological persecution. All kinds of oppression and torture. Etc. Historically, humans have often based religious practices on theistic or other supernatural beliefs. But even in modern societies that have rejected theism, we still see religious behavior. |
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#95 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Aug 2007
Posts: 39,617
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I'm suggesting that neither are present at birth, but that as humans develop their default tendency is to develop some form of religion. It may be simply a vague and unexamined set of supernatural axioms. It may be a more explicit kind of superstition. It may even be a full-blown theism. If it lasts long enough, over several generations, it will likely evolve into a full-blown theism.
And I'm suggesting that even among humans who reject theism and superstition in all its forms, the default tendency is to develop some other kind of religious practice or belief system, and indulge to some degree in all the same behaviors as the religious theists. |
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#96 |
Penultimate Amazing
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#97 |
Philosopher
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Thinking is a faith hazard. |
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#98 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Aug 2007
Posts: 39,617
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My evidence is the same as yours: general review of humans through history.
Hatred, persecution, suppression, criminalization... Look at communism. Not a theistic ideology. But it has inspired religious fervor on par with the worst of the Catholic Church. Complete with crusades, inquisitions, and even anti-popes. All done not in the name of any god, but done in the name of a religion all the same. Even if you get rid of the theos, if you don't get rid of the religious impulse, you haven't gotten rid of the problem. |
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#99 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Feb 2011
Posts: 19,319
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I have no belief in any god or gods. You are telling me I am lying? Really?
Now that is absurd. You are claiming that someone in a coma is secretly harbouring beliefs. Please provide evidence of such. You cannot. If that person recovers, then one could check. So long as they do not, no statement can be made either way. But you seem to think you can. Atheism is a position on a single issue, the existence of a god or gods. It says **** all about any other beliefs any given atheist may hold. This is not rocket magic. |
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Who is General Failure? And why is he reading my hard drive? ...love and buttercakes... |
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#100 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Feb 2011
Posts: 19,319
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Who is General Failure? And why is he reading my hard drive? ...love and buttercakes... |
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#101 |
Philosopher
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Thinking is a faith hazard. |
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#102 |
Master Poster
Join Date: Feb 2017
Posts: 2,772
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I wouldn't call communism a religion per se, there are however folks who are effectively religious commies. Maoist seem particularly prone to that kind of thinking, there are at least two historical cults based on Maoism. The Birchers and Objectivists are the only similar movements based on political philosophies I'm aware of. Really, its that humans can make a religion out of just about anything, which is pretty much all the prestige was saying.
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#103 |
Observer of Phenomena
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Self-described nerd. Pronouns: He/Him My mom told me she tries never to make fun of people for not knowing something. - Randall Munroe |
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#104 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Jan 2003
Posts: 24,206
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Probably because they didn't know as much about the world as we do. The more you understand of, well, science and the natural history of the universe as revealed by science, the less compelling ancient myths become as a competing worldview.
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As to the question posed by the OP, whether or not atheism is the "default" isn't really a big concern of mine. To me, the default is agnosticism. But from the starting point of agnosticism, given the complete lack of any compelling evidence for the existence of deities (outside of myth), it's not far to atheism. |
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A fool thinks himself to be wise, but a wise man knows himself to be a fool. William Shakespeare |
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#105 |
Observer of Phenomena
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Self-described nerd. Pronouns: He/Him My mom told me she tries never to make fun of people for not knowing something. - Randall Munroe |
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#106 |
Muse
Join Date: Aug 2012
Posts: 941
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Because in the prescientific era "some form of theism" was the only way to explain the otherwise inexplicable - i.e. the god(s) did it.
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“He felt that his whole life was a kind of dream and he sometimes wondered whose it was and whether they were enjoying it.” ― Douglas Adams. |
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#107 |
Philosopher
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: Mesa, AZ
Posts: 5,426
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Obligatory American cultural reference nobody has yet posted:
https://www.bing.com/videos/search?q...7&&FORM=VRDGAR (OK, gratuitous.) |
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"At the Supreme Court level where we work, 90 percent of any decision is emotional. The rational part of us supplies the reasons for supporting our predilections." Justice William O. Douglas "Humans aren't rational creatures but rationalizing creatures." Author Unknown |
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#108 |
Lackey
Administrator
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I wish I knew how to quit you |
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#109 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Aug 2007
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#110 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Aug 2007
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Not just "now". I've been classing it as such for longer than I've been a member here.
But note: I've been classing it as a religion, but not as a theism.
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#111 |
Penultimate Amazing
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#112 |
Lackey
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Evidence of what? The 400 year claim? It does seem my recollection was slightly out, the OED reference is 1634 so just under 400 years.
https://en.m.wiktionary.org/wiki/Xtianity#English |
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I wish I knew how to quit you |
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#113 |
Penultimate Amazing
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#114 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Sep 2011
Posts: 18,045
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The basis of the practice goes back even farther when such abbreviations as Χος appeared in the Greek manuscripts of NT books, very long ago. Often there would be a textual apparatus such as a superscript bar to indicate that it was intended as an abbreviation, and a similar abbreviation for the given name Jesus was used that employed the uppercase iota. The letters following iota or chi were needed in some cases to provide grammatical coherence. But the notion that I stands for Jesus and X stands for Christ, and that these particles may be suffixed to indicate any word containing their principal, is an extremely old practice.
It really only becomes important when people take offense under the wrong reasons. If the claim is that these abbreviations were invented by non-Christians with the intent to deprive words of their original etymology, there's simply no historic basis for that claim. But of course that doesn't stop someone from naively using the abbreviation today with exactly that intent. |
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#115 |
New Blood
Join Date: Nov 2019
Posts: 3
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Here's my reason for not believing in god summed up in 2 words "childrens hospital" what did children do to deserve cancer, tumours, leukimeia etc ?? Where is your god when children are dying from these horrible things?? Meanwhile we have scumbag criminals walking the earth , murderers, paedos, robbers, drug addicts that have never paid a penny into society, Open your eyes sheeple, The Vatican alone could cure world hunger tomorrow without denting it's bank account, But they always need more, More for them and less for you (they have been doing this for centuries by the way) all tax free, Plus they ferried the Nazis out of Europe (see ratlines) **** ALL RELIGIONS.
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#116 |
Philosopher
Join Date: May 2016
Location: Brisbane, Aust.
Posts: 5,704
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I can see and understand your passion Guido and you will find many here have a similar view. Welcome to the forum.
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Thinking is a faith hazard. |
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#117 |
Philosopher
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Thinking is a faith hazard. |
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#118 |
Master Poster
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#119 |
Observer of Phenomena
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Self-described nerd. Pronouns: He/Him My mom told me she tries never to make fun of people for not knowing something. - Randall Munroe |
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#120 |
Muse
Join Date: Aug 2012
Posts: 941
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"Religion" is defined by the Oxford Dictionary as: "the belief in and worship of a superhuman controlling power, especially a personal God or gods. "ideas about the relationship between science and religion".
So, your use of "religion" might be correct at a colloquial level but no more than that. It is a "theism". |
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“He felt that his whole life was a kind of dream and he sometimes wondered whose it was and whether they were enjoying it.” ― Douglas Adams. |
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