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Old 6th December 2019, 02:25 AM   #201
cullennz
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Originally Posted by Orphia Nay View Post

Cows are responsible for 65% of agricultural emissions.


Which is pretty much all methane, which is a lot different to other emissions, as it dissipates in 9 to 10 years and not 1000s
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Old 6th December 2019, 07:54 AM   #202
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Originally Posted by arthwollipot View Post
You're requiring her to actually have achieved all of these goals before you will accord her any respect at all. That's your standard, and it is impossible for her to meet.
No, I'm taking the piss. I'm meeting hyperbole with hyperbole. I'm skewering the absurdly lofty goals in Thunberg's latest manifesto. She's not going to earn my respect by accomplishing the impossible (though if she did, she would). She's losing my respect by inches, with things like this absurd manifesto and its impossible goals. We need a hard cap on global emissions within the decade to avert catastrophe, and she's talking about dismantling the entire system of the world on SJW grounds. Which, admittedly, would reduce emissions. But it would probably be a much worse catastrophe for humans. I think I'm justified in a little pointing and laughing.

Quote:
Well, she doesn't. She doesn't even know who you are and has no reason to give two rat's tails what you think of her, or what you want from her.
This is a cop out. She's supposed to be an explainer and persuader. Nobody asked her to pursue this. But we can judge whether she's doing a good job of explaining and persuading. I'd say she owes it to herself and her cause to explain some of this silliness.

Quote:
You keep referring to her "fan club". There is no fan club. She has supporters across the world. Your use of the phrase comes across as derogatory, or at the very least, condescending.
I think when you have supporters who are flying around the world just to meet with you personally, you have a fan club.

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It's not for me to explain. You're demanding explanations from Greta, not from me. And she won't be able to explain it to you unless you ask her to. Are you going to do that?

No. You're not. Because you don't take her seriously because she hasn't answered the questions that you haven't asked her.
You can explain why you dismiss it.
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Old 6th December 2019, 07:59 AM   #203
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Originally Posted by arthwollipot View Post
Why should I set a standard at all? I'm not the one holding her to standards, you are. She's doing more than I am, and that's good enough for me.
That's a pretty poor standard. We're celebrating Greta Thunberg because she's doing more than arthwollipot?

And is she really doing all that much more than you? Sure, she's inspired protest events around the world, but so what? She's calling for drastic and immediate policy changes. She's calling for a hard cap on global emissions within the next ten years. On those critical points - the points that actually matter - has she really done all that much more than you have?

Apparently she's gotten some Swedes to reduce their air travel. Good on her for that. Of course, now's she's sending them a message that giving up air travel isn't practical, and that the world's governments need to make it easier for people to travel without flying. This seems like a weird and wrong-headed priority at this time. I wonder how many Swedes are going to hear this new message and decide to go back to air travel, pending a policy change from the governments of the world?
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Old 6th December 2019, 08:04 AM   #204
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Originally Posted by Orphia Nay View Post
Do you read/see all her posts on Twitter, for example?




My guess?

To prove it can be done.

(I know some stuffs about that line of thought. : ) )
To prove what can be done?

To prove it's possible to fly a sailboat crew across the Atlantic? That is already well known, and irrelevant to Thunberg's stated mission.

To prove it's possible to sail across the Atlantic? That is also already well known. Greta herself did it already, just a couple months ago.
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Old 6th December 2019, 09:05 AM   #205
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
That seems kind of defeatist. You can't come up with a compelling argument for anyone's attendance, there?

How so? Why should any single individual in a conference this large be so critically important they absolutely must be there. The premise is nonsensical.
Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
I don't think Greta is very good at communicating the need for action on climate change.
The evidence says otherwise. Hell, your own argument is that she does it so effectively sheís inspired a global ďfan clubĒ. Whether this derogatory description truly applies is irrelevant, clearly her message resonates even with her critics. Just look at how her simple factual statements trigger hyperbolic responses from climate deniers, even in this very thread.
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Old 6th December 2019, 09:45 AM   #206
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Originally Posted by lomiller View Post
How so? Why should any single individual in a conference this large be so critically important they absolutely must be there. The premise is nonsensical.
Not at all. One of the main purposes of COP25 is to work out the next stage in international climate change policy. The success of this depends on the attendance of national representatives to discuss and agree on these policies. Given the agenda of the conference, and given the urgency of the work, I'd say that there are several people whose attendance and participation are absolutely critical.

Quote:
The evidence says otherwise. Hell, your own argument is that she does it so effectively she’s inspired a global “fan club”. Whether this derogatory description truly applies is irrelevant, clearly her message resonates even with her critics. Just look at how her simple factual statements trigger hyperbolic responses from climate deniers, even in this very thread.
Having a fan club is not the same thing as making a difference where the difference actually matters. She's done a really good job of persuading people to go to street protests. How good a job has she done of persuading people to hard cap emissions before it's too late? How good a job has she done at persuading people to take the kind of drastic, disruptive policy actions she's calling for?

Sizzle is not steak. We need steak. She's preaching a message of desperate need for steak, lots of it, right ******* now. But all she's actually delivered so far is sizzle. Her fan club is celebrating sizzle.
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Old 6th December 2019, 10:09 AM   #207
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
Not at all. One of the main purposes of COP25 is to work out the next stage in international climate change policy. The success of this depends on the attendance of national representatives to discuss and agree on these policies..
Moving goalposts noted. This has nothing to do with there being a single individual who attendance is absolutely required?

Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
Having a fan club is not the same thing as making a difference where the difference actually matters. She's done a really good job of persuading people to go to street protests.
IOW sheís done a tremendous job of getting people engaged on the issue. People telling their leaders whatís important to them is an important part of democracy. I am not going to bother with your insinuations that democracy itself is pointless because dictators will just ignore it line of ďreasoningĒ. Itís obvious nonsense and I see no value in discussing it.
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Old 6th December 2019, 10:18 AM   #208
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Originally Posted by lomiller View Post
Moving goalposts noted. This has nothing to do with there being a single individual who attendance is absolutely required?
There are several single individuals. Without substantive efforts from the various individuals representing the G20, the conference will probably fail.

Maybe "absolutely requried" isn't the right term. Let's try this: Why is it so important for Greta Thunberg to attend? I think it's vitally important for representatives of the governments of Russia, China, the US, France, etc. to attend. I think it's vitally important for subject matter experts in the fields of climate, economics, health, and politics to attend. I can make arguments for why their attendance is vital, but I hope those arguments are obvious to you already.

What I don't see is an obvious argument for why it's vital for Thunberg to attend. Even Greta herself doesn't seem to have offered anything particularly persuasive. Everybody just seems to take it for granted that it's important for her to be there. That it's important for people to fly around the world to help her sail to COP25, to help her send a message that it's not practical to sail to COP25. How is any of that important?


Quote:
IOW she’s done a tremendous job of getting people engaged on the issue. People telling their leaders what’s important to them is an important part of democracy. I am not going to bother with your insinuations that democracy itself is pointless because dictators will just ignore it line of “reasoning”. It’s obvious nonsense and I see no value in discussing it.
Even the democracies are ignoring it. Global emissions are up. Again. The immediate, drastic policy changes have not been implemented. Again. Students cutting class for Friday street protests doesn't actually reduce emissions. Yours is a cargo-cult view of Greta's activism.

The crisis is looming. If we don't make major changes immediately, we're looking at a catastrophic rise in global temperature, and an attendant catastrophic rise in sea level. You can't measure Greta's success in averting this catastrophe in numbers of schoolchildren participating in street marches.

Let's see what credible national pledges are made to reduce emissions, following COP25. Let's see how many of those pledges actually get followed through on. Then we can perhaps measure the size of Greta's actual contribution to the issue.

Last edited by theprestige; 6th December 2019 at 10:26 AM.
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Old 6th December 2019, 11:25 AM   #209
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Originally Posted by lionking View Post
As this thread displays, she is indeed getting to them.

The ridicule that has been thrown her way in this thread is ample evidence. The deniers in this thread are particular apoplectic.
Are you familiar with the concept of a "chew toy"?

I don't much care about Greta one way or the other. I hadn't heard about her before Matthew Best started this thread to bring her to our attention. When this thread loses steam, I'll probably not think about Greta ever again. Maybe if her name crosses my eclectic news feed I might think, "oh yeah, her", before moving on.

But while this thread is active, I don't mind gnawing on the chew toy a bit. Greta's antics, and the antics of her fan club, (we're not fans! we just think she's doing great work and making a real difference! we're just here to defend her against any ridicule at all!), are a decent chew toy. Get over it.
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Old 6th December 2019, 11:39 AM   #210
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
Are you familiar with the concept of a "chew toy"?

I don't much care about Greta one way or the other. I hadn't heard about her before Matthew Best started this thread to bring her to our attention. When this thread loses steam, I'll probably not think about Greta ever again. Maybe if her name crosses my eclectic news feed I might think, "oh yeah, her", before moving on.

But while this thread is active, I don't mind gnawing on the chew toy a bit. Greta's antics, and the antics of her fan club, (we're not fans! we just think she's doing great work and making a real difference! we're just here to defend her against any ridicule at all!), are a decent chew toy. Get over it.
If you think people canít see through you, well I can only conclude you are deluding yourself. From the start of this thread you have shown contempt for what Greta has been doing and contempt for those who support her.

Taking the piss? Chew toy? Pathetic. You canít handle the attention she is getting and the support she is generating. If she were a middle aged man, you would not be so upset.

Get over it.
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Old 6th December 2019, 12:00 PM   #211
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It's not like Al Gore got a rough ride. he just made his movie, gave his speeches and the climate crisis was solved. No opposition, no push back everybody just fell in line, listened to the middle aged white guy and Bob's your uncle.
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Old 6th December 2019, 12:55 PM   #212
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Is Jeremy Clarkson a member here?

"She's mad and she's dangerous and she's causing young children sleepless nights with her idiocy. I think she needs to go back to school and shut up."

https://www.mirror.co.uk/3am/celebri...21029959.amp?_
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Old 6th December 2019, 01:13 PM   #213
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Originally Posted by Matthew Best View Post
Is Jeremy Clarkson a member here?

"She's mad and she's dangerous and she's causing young children sleepless nights with her idiocy. I think she needs to go back to school and shut up."

https://www.mirror.co.uk/3am/celebri...21029959.amp?_
In truth, I disagree with Clarkson, who is overreacting (IMO). She's understandably angry. She's not particularly dangerous. I don't know about any sleepless children. The issues she's warning about aren't idiotic, even if some of her actions are kinda silly.

I guess going back to school is generally a good idea, but I have no problem with her trading a few months of schooling for these kinds of life experiences. I bet even Swedish schools aren't that amazing. She can always catch up on her studies later, assmuming she's even falling behind in the first place.

And of course she doesn't need to shut up. She should continue speaking her mind and promoting her causes. She'll get better at it as she matures, I hope.

So no, I don't think Clarkson is a member here.

Anyway, as long as she's speaking her mind and promoting her causes, I reserve the right to point and laugh when she says or does something silly. And I reserve the right to point and laugh when her fan club tries overhypes her actual accomplishments into something much more significant, or insists that her presence at this or that event is super important because of reasons.
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Old 6th December 2019, 01:24 PM   #214
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
So no, I don't think Clarkson is a member here.
Good. I can call him an idiot then.
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Old 6th December 2019, 01:31 PM   #215
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Originally Posted by Matthew Best View Post
Good. I can call him an idiot then.
Be my guest.
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Old 6th December 2019, 01:36 PM   #216
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Thanks. Clarkson is an idiot.
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Old 6th December 2019, 01:47 PM   #217
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Originally Posted by Matthew Best View Post
Thanks. Clarkson is an idiot.
LOL. Look! A squirrel! Were you just looking for a middle aged white dude to call an idiot? I guess it must be easier than addressing any of the points raised or questions asked about Greta Thunberg.
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Old 6th December 2019, 01:55 PM   #218
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
LOL. Look! A squirrel! Were you just looking for a middle aged white dude to call an idiot?
No, he just appeared.
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Old 6th December 2019, 08:09 PM   #219
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Exclamation

Originally Posted by Stout View Post
It's not like Al Gore got a rough ride. he just made his movie, gave his speeches and the climate crisis was solved. No opposition, no push back everybody just fell in line, listened to the middle aged white guy and Bob's your uncle.
I don't recall seeing anything Sr Gore preached getting much traction either.
It happened if government mandated it and not because Al gave a speech about it.

All the chicken littles before him aren't very memorable so thier great feats probably were not that many without gov support.
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Old 6th December 2019, 08:56 PM   #220
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Originally Posted by 8enotto View Post
I don't recall seeing anything Sr Gore preached getting much traction either.
It happened if government mandated it and not because Al gave a speech about it.

All the chicken littles before him aren't very memorable so thier great feats probably were not that many without gov support.
That was posted more in response to the ridiculous notion that were Thunberg a middle aged man, he wouldn't be getting such a rough ride. There was plenty of push back against Gore and I seem to remember some "fake news" widely circulation about the amount of energy his mansion consumed.

Everybody vowed to do better back then. Governments. Companies, Individuals ( to some extent ) and 15 years from now, Thunberg might also be a distant memory.

Global Day of Action.
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Old 7th December 2019, 03:03 AM   #221
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Interesting to see GT correctly ridiculing school strikes as , ok, not persuading Asian politicians to decide not to commission coal fired power stations as planned for next 30 years.
It is actually important that all potential Asian tourists climb the pizza tower and fly through the Grand Canyon.
A sine qua non to equivilate opportunity for human biomass.
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Old 7th December 2019, 04:17 AM   #222
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I helped at parkrun, and at a local refugee support fundraising BBQ today.
I walked to both.
I got to meet inspiring new people and gain new knowledge and hope. I got to have conversations in realtime with friends who could answer some of my burning questions. And helped others help others without costing taxpayers anything. And got given some surplus food.
I thought I'd be a bit smug about that in this thread and let you interpret what I'm getting at.


BTW, when this wasn't going on, today I was suffering enormous anguish in trying to help Foolmewunz and family. And receiving supportive messages and gestures from the amazing ISF/JREF community, and also feeling like our forum is emerging from a very dark time.
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Old 7th December 2019, 05:13 AM   #223
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Originally Posted by Samson View Post
Interesting to see GT correctly ridiculing school strikes as , ok, not persuading Asian politicians to decide not to commission coal fired power stations as planned for next 30 years.
It is actually important that all potential Asian tourists climb the pizza tower and fly through the Grand Canyon.
A sine qua non to equivilate opportunity for human biomass.
Another one who thinks Greta has problems with communication????
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Old 7th December 2019, 11:46 AM   #224
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
If she had pushed the message that nobody should be flying, and then she flew to COP25 with no explanation, I would have taken issue with that.

If she had flown to COP25, with the explanation that nobody should be flying except out of great need, and there was a great need for her to attend COP25, I would not have taken issue with that explanation.

<snip?

Sure you would have.

In fact, you already did, and continue to, at great length and in great detail.

Why do you say things like this when they are patently untrue?
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Old 7th December 2019, 02:17 PM   #225
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Surprise !!!!

Greta Thunberg says school strikes have achieved nothing

You need to double your efforts people. Grab a sign, get out there. Raise your fist and yell.

And after the protest I'd like to point out that propane patio heaters are on sale at Wal Mart.
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Old 7th December 2019, 04:24 PM   #226
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Originally Posted by Stout View Post
Surprise !!!!

Greta Thunberg says school strikes have achieved nothing

You need to double your efforts people. Grab a sign, get out there. Raise your fist and yell.

And after the protest I'd like to point out that propane patio heaters are on sale at Wal Mart.
Why does this surprise you?
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Old 7th December 2019, 04:52 PM   #227
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Originally Posted by Steve View Post
Why does this surprise you?
There was so much faith, so much enthusiasm over the machinations of the Swedish girl. I thought this time...maybe but with the way things appear to be going at COP25....

There's always Glasgow.
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Old 7th December 2019, 06:00 PM   #228
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Miss Greta is learning history repeats itself. Protest is a weak method of convincing rich men to abandon huge income and investment.

Soon she will learn when teens grow, turn into parents ideals and reality are not the same. And which one is always abandoned when baby needs diapers.
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Old 7th December 2019, 06:06 PM   #229
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Originally Posted by Stout View Post
There was so much faith, so much enthusiasm over the machinations of the Swedish girl. I thought this time...maybe but with the way things appear to be going at COP25....

There's always Glasgow.
It appears you did not understand my question. Iíll ask again. Why did that surprise you?
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Old 7th December 2019, 06:19 PM   #230
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Originally Posted by 8enotto View Post
Miss Greta is learning history repeats itself. Protest is a weak method of convincing rich men to abandon huge income and investment.

Soon she will learn when teens grow, turn into parents ideals and reality are not the same. And which one is always abandoned when baby needs diapers.
Well itís a good thing that the intention is not to convince the rich. Did you read my list of successful, world changing protests?

And you final paragraph is just ridiculous. Have you noticed parents and even grey heads marching in protest?

It looks you have convinced yourself that you are doing practical things without marching and that nothing else can work. Can you please acknowledge that many other people are doing so as well? Governments, in the main, are not doing what they can. This is the target of these protests.

People who do not accept that Greta is doing constructive things have their heads in the sand in my opinion. And I suspect that itís only because they donít like young girls telling obvious truths.
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Old 7th December 2019, 06:30 PM   #231
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You are allowed your opinion and have voiced it clearly.

That does not imply anyone has to think in lockstep we with you. Accept that.
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Old 7th December 2019, 06:38 PM   #232
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Originally Posted by 8enotto View Post
You are allowed your opinion and have voiced it clearly.

That does not imply anyone has to think in lockstep we with you. Accept that.
Well I donít have to accept nonsense. What about those world changing protests?
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Old 7th December 2019, 08:20 PM   #233
Giordano
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I dropped back in to this thread to discover that the current argument is:

“Ha! Ha! Nothing got done about climate change because of Al Gore! Nothing will get done about climate change because of Greta Thunberg! Ha, ha, ha - she and her followers are just idiots to think otherwise! It is all useless! Snort, laugh...”

Well, I hope you guys think about what the implications of this argument are and if anyone who really believes it should find much amusement in it. I’m not sure celebrating someone’s alleged ineffectiveness in this area is a great idea. I also hope none of you lives near the ocean, or near any area with a risk of wildfire, or...

it’s like finding it funny to watch other passengers they dislike panic as the ship they all share sinks...

Last edited by Giordano; 7th December 2019 at 08:24 PM.
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Old 7th December 2019, 08:30 PM   #234
cullennz
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Originally Posted by Giordano View Post
I dropped back in to this thread to discover that the current argument is:

ďHa! Ha! Nothing got done about climate change because of Al Gore! Nothing will get done about climate change because of Greta Thunberg! Ha, ha, ha - she and her followers are just idiots to think otherwise! It is all useless! Snort, laugh...Ē

Well, I hope you guys think about what the implications of this argument are and if anyone who really believes it should find much amusement in it. Iím not sure celebrating someoneís alleged ineffectiveness in this area is a great idea. I also hope none of you lives near the ocean, or near any area with a risk of wildfire, or...

itís like finding it funny to watch other passengers they dislike panic as the ship they all share sinks...
I have read this post about 4 times now and still don't get your point.

Greta admits her strikes didn't work on govts, yet you blame normal people who who had the audacity to criticise the methods she used?



You do realise that knowing climate change is happening and wanting govts to act, while not fawning over her every action are not mutually exclusive?
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Old 7th December 2019, 08:44 PM   #235
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Originally Posted by cullennz View Post
I have read this post about 4 times now and still don't get your point.

Greta admits her strikes didn't work on govts, yet you blame [normal people who who had the audacity to criticise the methods she used?



You do realise that knowing climate change is happening and wanting govts to act, while not fawning over her every action are not mutually exclusive?
I disagree.
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Old 7th December 2019, 08:47 PM   #236
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Originally Posted by cullennz View Post
I have read this post about 4 times now and still don't get your point.

Greta admits her strikes didn't work on govts, yet you blame normal people who who had the audacity to criticise the methods she used?



You do realise that knowing climate change is happening and wanting govts to act, while not fawning over her every action are not mutually exclusive?
So what are you personally doing to get governments to act? Someone is trying. Itís not you.
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Old 7th December 2019, 08:48 PM   #237
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Originally Posted by Steve View Post
I disagree.
I agree with your disagreement.
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Old 7th December 2019, 08:51 PM   #238
Giordano
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Originally Posted by cullennz View Post
I have read this post about 4 times now and still don't get your point.

Greta admits her strikes didn't work on govts, yet you blame normal people who who had the audacity to criticise the methods she used?



You do realise that knowing climate change is happening and wanting govts to act, while not fawning over her every action are not mutually exclusive?
Really? I think it is pretty clear that a number of posters are hoping in their heart of hearts that Thunberg doesnít succeed simply because of their spite and dislike of her. Rather than hoping that her approach, together with others, will help move people and governments toward dealing with this crisis.

Just read the thread. These feelings are not well hidden. I am not discussing criticisms of her methods or disappointment but amusement and hope for her failures.
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Old 7th December 2019, 08:51 PM   #239
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It is not celebrating they are not as effective as hoped. It is knowing they aren't and looking for another method that will get results.

Nobody likes a sinking ship. Attending street dances in guise of climate protests doesn't help much with ponytails or a grey beard.

If big government is slow in action it doesn't mean I have to be. Or anyone else.
It also doesn't mean I have to go full blown eco hippy and live off the grid.

Meanwhile when a good method of forcing gov to get on it without shutting down half of society comes along, I am going to be helping to push it.
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Old 7th December 2019, 09:01 PM   #240
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Originally Posted by Giordano View Post
I dropped back in to this thread to discover that the current argument is:

ďHa! Ha! Nothing got done about climate change because of Al Gore! Nothing will get done about climate change because of Greta Thunberg! Ha, ha, ha - she and her followers are just idiots to think otherwise! It is all useless! Snort, laugh...Ē

Well, I hope you guys think about what the implications of this argument are and if anyone who really believes it should find much amusement in it. Iím not sure celebrating someoneís alleged ineffectiveness in this area is a great idea. I also hope none of you lives near the ocean, or near any area with a risk of wildfire, or...

itís like finding it funny to watch other passengers they dislike panic as the ship they all share sinks...
Ummmmm.....No

My argument has always been that we as a society, as a people should be focusing on reducing our own fossil fuel consumption rather than relying on politicians to do it for us.

I know it's easy to be dazzled by someone like Thunberg who tells you that you don't need to do this, that it's strictly up to the politicians and industry to solve this problem and it provides a convenient justification for continuing to emit GHGs and consume resources all the while saying "not my problem"

So, smart people, tell us how relying on politicians will *this time* is going to prove any more effective in the next 8 years considering how that strategy has failed miserably over the past 15 years.

I suppose you could take solace that, when that ship goes down and the seas close in over your head, you can say you "tried".

You might as well join the Catholic Church.
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