Next Labour Leader - Page 2

Ziggurat · 20th December 2019, 08:11 AM

Originally Posted by Darat

Emily Thornberry*throwing her hat in.

I do like her bluntness.

I like Emily Blunt better, for her thorniness.

GlennB · 20th December 2019, 08:25 AM

Originally Posted by LondonJohn

Ah that gosh-darned Labour Party Rule Book! I'd forgotten about Labour's idiosyncratic party rules. Oh well. I'd agree that, especially given the time frames in play, it's very unlikely to happen.

The Tory leadership election requires MPs to nominate themselves. This rules out members of The Lords unless they move very quickly indeed; implausibly quickly.

So no, it isn't the Labour party that's idiosyncratic.

LondonJohn · 21st December 2019, 02:09 AM

Originally Posted by GlennB

The Tory leadership election requires MPs to nominate themselves. This rules out members of The Lords unless they move very quickly indeed; implausibly quickly.

So no, it isn't the Labour party that's idiosyncratic.

I was under the impression that the only requirement for someone to declare candidacy was the support of a certain number of MPs, and not necessarily that the candidate was an MP themselves.

As I said before, I absolutely agree that all the main parties in the present day would stand for nothing less than their leader being an MP. And if indeed in a Conservative election contest a member of the Lords were allowed to stand (with the support of a certain required number of MPs), then that candidate would certainly at the very least have to declare that he/she would immediately renounce their peerage if elected, and seek a (safe Conservative) seat in the Commons via a resignation and by-election.

GlennB · 21st December 2019, 03:32 AM

Originally Posted by LondonJohn

I was under the impression that the only requirement for someone to declare candidacy was the support of a certain number of MPs, and not necessarily that the candidate was an MP themselves.

"The election takes place in two stages. In the first stage (shortlisting), Conservative MPs put their own names forward. In the 2019 leadership election candidates will need the support of eight MPs (proposer, seconder and six others) to stand. In the 2016 leadership election, candidates only needed the nominations of two other MPs."

Originally Posted by LondonJohn

As I said before, I absolutely agree that all the main parties in the present day would stand for nothing less than their leader being an MP. And if indeed in a Conservative election contest a member of the Lords were allowed to stand (with the support of a certain required number of MPs), then that candidate would certainly at the very least have to declare that he/she would immediately renounce their peerage if elected, and seek a (safe Conservative) seat in the Commons via a resignation and by-election.

Last happened in 1963 (Alec Douglas-Home) but couldn't happen now. The shortlisting phase would be delayed, for a start, by the holding of the bye-election, and other candidates would be screaming blue murder. It's certainly not something that a candidate in the Lords could stage manage themselves.

IsThisTheLife · 21st December 2019, 05:54 PM

Like I already said somewhere - Emily Thornberry for the gig. She typifies everything wrong with politicians generally and Labour in particular - a gobby, self-serving careerist (a "North London Champagne Socialist", literally). Was a lawyer and barrister (like so many others of recent times), a "human rights" barrister to be precise, which is to law what 'gender studies' professors are to higher education.

Vixen · 22nd December 2019, 09:32 AM

Originally Posted by IsThisTheLife

Like I already said somewhere - Emily Thornberry for the gig. She typifies everything wrong with politicians generally and Labour in particular - a gobby, self-serving careerist (a "North London Champagne Socialist", literally). Was a lawyer and barrister (like so many others of recent times), a "human rights" barrister to be precise, which is to law what 'gender studies' professors are to higher education.

Run along now.

IsThisTheLife · 23rd December 2019, 07:45 AM

Originally Posted by Vixen

Run along now.

I gather Hyacinth is a woman after your own heart - unsurprising.

Arcade22 · 31st December 2019, 04:58 PM

Here's Corbyn's new year's eve message:

Quote:

2019 has been quite the year for our country and for our labour movement.

And now we are not just entering a new year but a new decade. And the period ahead could not be more important.

It will be crucial if we are to stop irreversible damage being caused by the climate crisis and the particular effects that has on people in the global south.

If we are to stop the pain plaguing our country: food banks, poverty and people struggling to get by. If we are to protect our precious NHS.

It won’t be easy. But we have built a movement. We are the resistance to Boris Johnson. We will be campaigning every day. We will be on the frontline, both in parliament and on the streets.

Protecting our public services. Protecting healthcare free at the point of use. Protecting our communities, in all their brilliant diversity. And standing up for internationalism, global solidarity and cooperation, and working with movements and parties seeking social justice and change all over the world.

And make no mistake, our movement is very strong. We are half a million people and growing. We are in every region and nation of our country.

We’re not backed by the press barons, by the billionaires or by the millionaires who work for the billionaires. We’re backed by you. We are by the many, for the many.

2020 and the years ahead will be tough. No one is saying otherwise. But we’re up for the fight. To protect what we hold dear. And to build to win and to transform.

The fight continues. There is no other choice.

So if you’re with us already, I can’t wait to meet the challenges ahead together. But if you’re not, join us. Join Labour today. Together we can bring about real change for our country, for the many and not just the few.

I'm sure that this goes down well with the true believers who only care about activism and protesting against something rather than actually being able to win a general election and run the government.

Sideroxylon · 31st December 2019, 05:13 PM

Originally Posted by Arcade22

Here's Corbyn's new year's eve message:

I'm sure that this goes down well with the true believers who only care about activism and protesting against something rather than actually being able to win a general election and run the government.

#postvalues

The Don · 2nd January 2020, 01:40 AM

Originally Posted by Arcade22

I'm sure that this goes down well with the true believers who only care about activism and protesting against something rather than actually being able to win a general election and run the government.

I've said it before, in this thread and others, my experience of Labour Party membership for the better part of 25 years starting in the early 80s was there were, and likely still are, a sizeable number of members for whom electoral failure is a clear indication that the policies are right on the money.

Now that the policies are right, all Labour need to do is to fundamentally change basic human nature over the course of a few decades and the Labour-led workers' utopia will finally come into being.

imodium · 2nd January 2020, 12:16 PM

they need to choose someone the media can't attach lazy labels to, red ed hurt miliband while corbyn encouraged kremlin, comrade and commie and got dry humped twice.
kremlin/komrade/kommie keir hardie starmer is probably a non starter, rebecca wrong bailey would catch on, communist clive lewis is a likely headline, im guessing it would be red jess phillips.
just leaves lisa nandy, red lisa sounds like a really bad eighties arnie film, communist and politburo doesn't really fit, nandos maybe?
need to leave slim pickens for the rags.

GlennB · 2nd January 2020, 01:20 PM

A poll of Labour party members makes Keir Starmer the hot favourite. Good.

Giz · 5th January 2020, 02:05 PM

https://www.change.org/p/jeremy-corb...rbyn-as-leader

(Petition to keep Corbyn as leader)
(Wonder how many conservatives are signing?)

dudalb · 9th January 2020, 12:10 PM

Originally Posted by Giz

https://www.change.org/p/jeremy-corb...rbyn-as-leader

(Petition to keep Corbyn as leader)
(Wonder how many conservatives are signing?)

What part of " the guy led Labor to one of it's worst defeats ever against a very unpopoular Tory leader" don't these nimrods get?

And is does not really matter, in the end, why COrbyn is so unpopular, fact remains he IS unpopular, and needs to replaced for not other reason then that. Politics is a cold business.
I have no doubt the Tory press smeared Corbyn, but from all I have read the guy made it easy for them to do so with his blunders.

It's like keeping the captian of the ship in control after he has ran the ship into an iceberg....

dudalb · 9th January 2020, 12:16 PM

Originally Posted by Sideroxylon

#postvalues

So ideologic purity is more important then actually winning elections and getting something, even if it is not all you might want, done?
Politics is the art of the possible. I have never seen that disproven.

Wudang · 9th January 2020, 12:21 PM

A couple of times I've heard Labour people say "but we won the argument". Which is like pissing yourself wearing dark trousers. You might get a warm feeling but not many people notice.

dudalb · 9th January 2020, 04:48 PM

Originally Posted by Wudang

A couple of times I've heard Labour people say "but we won the argument". Which is like pissing yourself wearing dark trousers. You might get a warm feeling but not many people notice.

THIS.THIS.THIS.

Problem with hard core ideologues and blind partisans is they just cannot admit that one reason they lost is because their side made a lot of mistakes.
I still love the whole "We should keep Corbyn as leader because the Tory Press said a lot of nasty things about him" argument. Damaged goods are damaged goods no matter how they got demaged and you get rid of them.
And from the comments on the keep Corbyn petition page you have a personality cult thing going.

dudalb · 9th January 2020, 05:09 PM

Originally Posted by Wudang

Was it Healey who talked about people "who perfer the ideological purity of opposition to the hard decisions of power"?

I've been in a few Labour discussions where all the loudest Corynistas apparently thought that Labour centrists (i.e. anyone not of their stamp) was the first enemy to be removed. Good call guys, alienate the people you have most common ground with.
I think another Corbynista would be a bad idea as they seem totally tone deaf. And the first layoff should have been Seamus.
There's been a spike in Labour party membership as a lot of people for various reasons want a say in selecting the next leader.

You have this same thing going on in the US with the more exreme wing of the Democratic Party;they really seem to want to purge anybody not Progressive enough for them from the party.
"We Don't Need No Stinking Centrist/Moderates" seems to be their battle cry.

wobs · 14th January 2020, 04:21 AM

Andrew Adonis thinks the cause of so many bad leaders, is the way they are elected:

Quote:

And I think I have worked it out: it was the fateful decision taken by both Labour (in 1983) and the Tories (in 1997) to move from parliamentary democracy to activist democracy in choosing their leaders.

This turned out to be a fundamental constitutional change, and a bad one. The rise of weak leadership is the mirror image of the decline of parliament.

The critical turning points were 2001 for the Tories and 2010 for Labour, when for the first time party activists overruled their own MPs and imposed leaders who were not the choice of parliamentarians.

If MPs alone had chosen Tory leaders since Major, the succession would probably have gone to Ken Clarke, who might well have won the 2005 election. Duncan Smith, Howard and May would be political footnotes, while Johnson would be a joke on Have I Got News For You.

https://www.theneweuropean.co.uk/top...tics-1-6166229

This makes sense, as the likes of Corbyn attract cult status among the members, but not much else.

Maybe its time to redesign the system.

wobs · 14th January 2020, 04:33 AM

Originally Posted by dudalb

THIS.THIS.THIS.

Problem with hard core ideologues and blind partisans is they just cannot admit that one reason they lost is because their side made a lot of mistakes.
I still love the whole "We should keep Corbyn as leader because the Tory Press said a lot of nasty things about him" argument. Damaged goods are damaged goods no matter how they got damaged and you get rid of them.
And from the comments on the keep Corbyn petition page you have a personality cult thing going.

They seem to romanticise losing, which I cannot get on board with. I saw this when I saw Mark Thomas (UK political comedian), and saw it in some of my ideologically inclined friends etc.

Darat · 14th January 2020, 04:50 AM

Originally Posted by wobs

They seem to romanticise losing, which I cannot get on board with. I saw this when I saw Mark Thomas (UK political comedian), and saw it in some of my ideologically inclined friends etc.

That is just human behaviour, doesn't matter if it is the Labour, Tory or leader of my gang, we all do this.

No "side" has a monopoly on this.

Giz · 14th January 2020, 09:48 AM

Originally Posted by wobs

They seem to romanticise losing, which I cannot get on board with. I saw this when I saw Mark Thomas (UK political comedian), and saw it in some of my ideologically inclined friends etc.

I don’t think it is necessarily romanticizing losing so much as when in adversity, people retreat into their comfort zone.

Labour did it with Corbyn

The torrid had done it with IDS

(Spellcheck! Should be tories not torrid)

jimbob · 14th January 2020, 10:58 AM

Originally Posted by dudalb

What part of " the guy led Labor to one of it's worst defeats ever against a very unpopoular Tory leader" don't these nimrods get?

And is does not really matter, in the end, why COrbyn is so unpopular, fact remains he IS unpopular, and needs to replaced for not other reason then that. Politics is a cold business.
I have no doubt the Tory press smeared Corbyn, but from all I have read the guy made it easy for them to do so with his blunders.

It's like keeping the captian of the ship in control after he has ran the ship into an iceberg....

Yup, and remember Corbyn only looked good in 2017 relative to Theresa Strong-n-stable May, one of the most hapless and least charismatic leaders of any major party. He still managed to get fewer votes than her, but after a couple of years, his perceived performance had fallen further.

jimbob · 14th January 2020, 11:10 AM

Originally Posted by Wudang

Was it Healey who talked about people "who perfer the ideological purity of opposition to the hard decisions of power"?

I've been in a few Labour discussions where all the loudest Corynistas apparently thought that Labour centrists (i.e. anyone not of their stamp) was the first enemy to be removed. Good call guys, alienate the people you have most common ground with.
I think another Corbynista would be a bad idea as they seem totally tone deaf. And the first layoff should have been Seamus.
There's been a spike in Labour party membership as a lot of people for various reasons want a say in selecting the next leader.

Yup - just because Corbyn lost to an incompetent buffoon, it's no reason to go for another one. Johnson's work ethic and attention to detail is likely to land him in hot water and pretending that Brexit is a good idea is something that will age really badly. Far better to be able to say that you opposed and tried to mitigate it rather than end up tainted with the inevitable disaster.

I have often thought that Corbyn likes the luxury of ineffectually attacking something really bad rather than actually trying to fix it.

Originally Posted by Giz

Yvette Cooper or Kier Starmer sound OK.

Only go with Thornberry if you have a burning desire to guarantee Boris wins the next election.

Yup

dudalb · 15th January 2020, 03:02 PM

Originally Posted by wobs

Andrew Adonis thinks the cause of so many bad leaders, is the way they are elected:

https://www.theneweuropean.co.uk/top...tics-1-6166229

This makes sense, as the likes of Corbyn attract cult status among the members, but not much else.

Maybe its time to redesign the system.

At times, Indirect Democracy works better then Direct Democracy.

20th December 2019, 08:11 AM	#41
Ziggurat Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Jun 2003 Posts: 48,010	Originally Posted by Darat Emily Thornberry*throwing her hat in. I do like her bluntness. I like Emily Blunt better, for her thorniness.
	__________________ "As long as it is admitted that the law may be diverted from its true purpose -- that it may violate property instead of protecting it -- then everyone will want to participate in making the law, either to protect himself against plunder or to use it for plunder. Political questions will always be prejudicial, dominant, and all-absorbing. There will be fighting at the door of the Legislative Palace, and the struggle within will be no less furious." - Bastiat, The Law

20th December 2019, 08:25 AM	#42
GlennB Loggerheaded, earth-vexing fustilarian Join Date: Sep 2006 Location: Usk, Wales Posts: 26,255	Originally Posted by LondonJohn Ah that gosh-darned Labour Party Rule Book! I'd forgotten about Labour's idiosyncratic party rules. Oh well. I'd agree that, especially given the time frames in play, it's very unlikely to happen. The Tory leadership election requires MPs to nominate themselves. This rules out members of The Lords unless they move very quickly indeed; implausibly quickly. So no, it isn't the Labour party that's idiosyncratic.
	__________________ "Even a broken clock is right twice a day. 9/11 truth is a clock with no hands." - Beachnut Last edited by GlennB; 20th December 2019 at 08:43 AM. Reason: typo

21st December 2019, 03:32 AM	#44
GlennB Loggerheaded, earth-vexing fustilarian Join Date: Sep 2006 Location: Usk, Wales Posts: 26,255	Originally Posted by LondonJohn I was under the impression that the only requirement for someone to declare candidacy was the support of a certain number of MPs, and not necessarily that the candidate was an MP themselves. "The election takes place in two stages. In the first stage (shortlisting), Conservative MPs put their own names forward. In the 2019 leadership election candidates will need the support of eight MPs (proposer, seconder and six others) to stand. In the 2016 leadership election, candidates only needed the nominations of two other MPs." Originally Posted by LondonJohn As I said before, I absolutely agree that all the main parties in the present day would stand for nothing less than their leader being an MP. And if indeed in a Conservative election contest a member of the Lords were allowed to stand (with the support of a certain required number of MPs), then that candidate would certainly at the very least have to declare that he/she would immediately renounce their peerage if elected, and seek a (safe Conservative) seat in the Commons via a resignation and by-election. Last happened in 1963 (Alec Douglas-Home) but couldn't happen now. The shortlisting phase would be delayed, for a start, by the holding of the bye-election, and other candidates would be screaming blue murder. It's certainly not something that a candidate in the Lords could stage manage themselves.
	__________________ "Even a broken clock is right twice a day. 9/11 truth is a clock with no hands." - Beachnut

21st December 2019, 05:54 PM	#45
IsThisTheLife Muse Join Date: Jan 2019 Posts: 590	Like I already said somewhere - Emily Thornberry for the gig. She typifies everything wrong with politicians generally and Labour in particular - a gobby, self-serving careerist (a "North London Champagne Socialist", literally). Was a lawyer and barrister (like so many others of recent times), a "human rights" barrister to be precise, which is to law what 'gender studies' professors are to higher education.
IsThisTheLife Muse Join Date: Jan 2019 Posts: 590	__________________ "There is no sin except stupidity."

22nd December 2019, 09:32 AM	#46
Vixen Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Apr 2015 Location: Suomi Posts: 20,252	Originally Posted by IsThisTheLife Like I already said somewhere - Emily Thornberry for the gig. She typifies everything wrong with politicians generally and Labour in particular - a gobby, self-serving careerist (a "North London Champagne Socialist", literally). Was a lawyer and barrister (like so many others of recent times), a "human rights" barrister to be precise, which is to law what 'gender studies' professors are to higher education. Run along now.
	__________________ Blott en dag, ett ögonblick i sänder, vilken tröst, vad än som kommer på!

21st December 2019, 02:09 AM	#43
LondonJohn Penultimate Amazing Join Date: May 2010 Posts: 16,252	Originally Posted by GlennB The Tory leadership election requires MPs to nominate themselves. This rules out members of The Lords unless they move very quickly indeed; implausibly quickly. So no, it isn't the Labour party that's idiosyncratic. I was under the impression that the only requirement for someone to declare candidacy was the support of a certain number of MPs, and not necessarily that the candidate was an MP themselves. As I said before, I absolutely agree that all the main parties in the present day would stand for nothing less than their leader being an MP. And if indeed in a Conservative election contest a member of the Lords were allowed to stand (with the support of a certain required number of MPs), then that candidate would certainly at the very least have to declare that he/she would immediately renounce their peerage if elected, and seek a (safe Conservative) seat in the Commons via a resignation and by-election.

23rd December 2019, 07:45 AM	#47
IsThisTheLife Muse Join Date: Jan 2019 Posts: 590	Originally Posted by Vixen Run along now. I gather Hyacinth is a woman after your own heart - unsurprising.
IsThisTheLife Muse Join Date: Jan 2019 Posts: 590	__________________ "There is no sin except stupidity."

31st December 2019, 04:58 PM	#48
Arcade22 Philosopher Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: Sweden Posts: 6,769	Here's Corbyn's new year's eve message: Quote: 2019 has been quite the year for our country and for our labour movement. And now we are not just entering a new year but a new decade. And the period ahead could not be more important. It will be crucial if we are to stop irreversible damage being caused by the climate crisis and the particular effects that has on people in the global south. If we are to stop the pain plaguing our country: food banks, poverty and people struggling to get by. If we are to protect our precious NHS. It won’t be easy. But we have built a movement. We are the resistance to Boris Johnson. We will be campaigning every day. We will be on the frontline, both in parliament and on the streets. Protecting our public services. Protecting healthcare free at the point of use. Protecting our communities, in all their brilliant diversity. And standing up for internationalism, global solidarity and cooperation, and working with movements and parties seeking social justice and change all over the world. And make no mistake, our movement is very strong. We are half a million people and growing. We are in every region and nation of our country. We’re not backed by the press barons, by the billionaires or by the millionaires who work for the billionaires. We’re backed by you. We are by the many, for the many. 2020 and the years ahead will be tough. No one is saying otherwise. But we’re up for the fight. To protect what we hold dear. And to build to win and to transform. The fight continues. There is no other choice. So if you’re with us already, I can’t wait to meet the challenges ahead together. But if you’re not, join us. Join Labour today. Together we can bring about real change for our country, for the many and not just the few. I'm sure that this goes down well with the true believers who only care about activism and protesting against something rather than actually being able to win a general election and run the government.
	__________________ We would be a lot safer if the Government would take its money out of science and put it into astrology and the reading of palms. Only in superstition is there hope. - Kurt Vonnegut Jr And no, Cuba is not a brutal and corrupt dictatorship, and it's definitely less so than Sweden. - dann

31st December 2019, 05:13 PM	#49
Sideroxylon Featherless biped Join Date: Aug 2008 Location: Aporia Posts: 24,131	Originally Posted by Arcade22 Here's Corbyn's new year's eve message: I'm sure that this goes down well with the true believers who only care about activism and protesting against something rather than actually being able to win a general election and run the government. #postvalues

2nd January 2020, 01:40 AM	#50
The Don Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Nov 2002 Location: Sir Fynwy Posts: 31,036	Originally Posted by Arcade22 I'm sure that this goes down well with the true believers who only care about activism and protesting against something rather than actually being able to win a general election and run the government. I've said it before, in this thread and others, my experience of Labour Party membership for the better part of 25 years starting in the early 80s was there were, and likely still are, a sizeable number of members for whom electoral failure is a clear indication that the policies are right on the money. Now that the policies are right, all Labour need to do is to fundamentally change basic human nature over the course of a few decades and the Labour-led workers' utopia will finally come into being.

2nd January 2020, 12:16 PM	#51
imodium Thinker Join Date: Apr 2014 Location: england Posts: 190	they need to choose someone the media can't attach lazy labels to, red ed hurt miliband while corbyn encouraged kremlin, comrade and commie and got dry humped twice. kremlin/komrade/kommie keir hardie starmer is probably a non starter, rebecca wrong bailey would catch on, communist clive lewis is a likely headline, im guessing it would be red jess phillips. just leaves lisa nandy, red lisa sounds like a really bad eighties arnie film, communist and politburo doesn't really fit, nandos maybe? need to leave slim pickens for the rags.

2nd January 2020, 01:20 PM	#52
GlennB Loggerheaded, earth-vexing fustilarian Join Date: Sep 2006 Location: Usk, Wales Posts: 26,255	A poll of Labour party members makes Keir Starmer the hot favourite. Good.
	__________________ "Even a broken clock is right twice a day. 9/11 truth is a clock with no hands." - Beachnut

5th January 2020, 02:05 PM	#53
Giz Philosopher Join Date: Jul 2002 Posts: 8,709	https://www.change.org/p/jeremy-corb...rbyn-as-leader (Petition to keep Corbyn as leader) (Wonder how many conservatives are signing?)
Giz Philosopher Join Date: Jul 2002 Posts: 8,709

9th January 2020, 12:10 PM	#54
dudalb Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: Sacramento Posts: 49,965	Originally Posted by Giz https://www.change.org/p/jeremy-corb...rbyn-as-leader (Petition to keep Corbyn as leader) (Wonder how many conservatives are signing?) What part of " the guy led Labor to one of it's worst defeats ever against a very unpopoular Tory leader" don't these nimrods get? And is does not really matter, in the end, why COrbyn is so unpopular, fact remains he IS unpopular, and needs to replaced for not other reason then that. Politics is a cold business. I have no doubt the Tory press smeared Corbyn, but from all I have read the guy made it easy for them to do so with his blunders. It's like keeping the captian of the ship in control after he has ran the ship into an iceberg....
	__________________ Pacifism is a shifty doctrine under which a man accepts the benefits of the social group without being willing to pay - and claims a halo for his dishonesty. Robert Heinlein. Last edited by dudalb; 9th January 2020 at 12:14 PM.

9th January 2020, 12:16 PM	#55
dudalb Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: Sacramento Posts: 49,965	Originally Posted by Sideroxylon #postvalues So ideologic purity is more important then actually winning elections and getting something, even if it is not all you might want, done? Politics is the art of the possible. I have never seen that disproven.
	__________________ Pacifism is a shifty doctrine under which a man accepts the benefits of the social group without being willing to pay - and claims a halo for his dishonesty. Robert Heinlein.

9th January 2020, 12:21 PM	#56
Wudang BOFH Join Date: Jun 2003 Location: People's Republic of South Yorkshire Posts: 13,384	A couple of times I've heard Labour people say "but we won the argument". Which is like pissing yourself wearing dark trousers. You might get a warm feeling but not many people notice.
	__________________ "Your deepest pools, like your deepest politicians and philosophers, often turn out more shallow than expected." Walter Scott.

9th January 2020, 04:48 PM	#57
dudalb Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: Sacramento Posts: 49,965	Originally Posted by Wudang A couple of times I've heard Labour people say "but we won the argument". Which is like pissing yourself wearing dark trousers. You might get a warm feeling but not many people notice. THIS.THIS.THIS. Problem with hard core ideologues and blind partisans is they just cannot admit that one reason they lost is because their side made a lot of mistakes. I still love the whole "We should keep Corbyn as leader because the Tory Press said a lot of nasty things about him" argument. Damaged goods are damaged goods no matter how they got demaged and you get rid of them. And from the comments on the keep Corbyn petition page you have a personality cult thing going.
	__________________ Pacifism is a shifty doctrine under which a man accepts the benefits of the social group without being willing to pay - and claims a halo for his dishonesty. Robert Heinlein. Last edited by dudalb; 9th January 2020 at 04:52 PM.

9th January 2020, 05:09 PM	#58
dudalb Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: Sacramento Posts: 49,965	Originally Posted by Wudang Was it Healey who talked about people "who perfer the ideological purity of opposition to the hard decisions of power"? I've been in a few Labour discussions where all the loudest Corynistas apparently thought that Labour centrists (i.e. anyone not of their stamp) was the first enemy to be removed. Good call guys, alienate the people you have most common ground with. I think another Corbynista would be a bad idea as they seem totally tone deaf. And the first layoff should have been Seamus. There's been a spike in Labour party membership as a lot of people for various reasons want a say in selecting the next leader. You have this same thing going on in the US with the more exreme wing of the Democratic Party;they really seem to want to purge anybody not Progressive enough for them from the party. "We Don't Need No Stinking Centrist/Moderates" seems to be their battle cry.
	__________________ Pacifism is a shifty doctrine under which a man accepts the benefits of the social group without being willing to pay - and claims a halo for his dishonesty. Robert Heinlein.

14th January 2020, 04:21 AM	#59
wobs Master Poster Join Date: Oct 2011 Location: Hull Posts: 2,293	Andrew Adonis thinks the cause of so many bad leaders, is the way they are elected: Quote: And I think I have worked it out: it was the fateful decision taken by both Labour (in 1983) and the Tories (in 1997) to move from parliamentary democracy to activist democracy in choosing their leaders. This turned out to be a fundamental constitutional change, and a bad one. The rise of weak leadership is the mirror image of the decline of parliament. The critical turning points were 2001 for the Tories and 2010 for Labour, when for the first time party activists overruled their own MPs and imposed leaders who were not the choice of parliamentarians. If MPs alone had chosen Tory leaders since Major, the succession would probably have gone to Ken Clarke, who might well have won the 2005 election. Duncan Smith, Howard and May would be political footnotes, while Johnson would be a joke on Have I Got News For You. https://www.theneweuropean.co.uk/top...tics-1-6166229 This makes sense, as the likes of Corbyn attract cult status among the members, but not much else. Maybe its time to redesign the system.
	__________________ "To vowels. They stop consonants sticking together like boiled sweets in a paper bag." Last edited by wobs; 14th January 2020 at 04:28 AM.

14th January 2020, 04:33 AM	#60
wobs Master Poster Join Date: Oct 2011 Location: Hull Posts: 2,293	Originally Posted by dudalb THIS.THIS.THIS. Problem with hard core ideologues and blind partisans is they just cannot admit that one reason they lost is because their side made a lot of mistakes. I still love the whole "We should keep Corbyn as leader because the Tory Press said a lot of nasty things about him" argument. Damaged goods are damaged goods no matter how they got damaged and you get rid of them. And from the comments on the keep Corbyn petition page you have a personality cult thing going. They seem to romanticise losing, which I cannot get on board with. I saw this when I saw Mark Thomas (UK political comedian), and saw it in some of my ideologically inclined friends etc.
	__________________ "To vowels. They stop consonants sticking together like boiled sweets in a paper bag."

14th January 2020, 04:50 AM	#61
Darat Lackey Administrator Join Date: Aug 2001 Location: South East, UK Posts: 96,110	Originally Posted by wobs They seem to romanticise losing, which I cannot get on board with. I saw this when I saw Mark Thomas (UK political comedian), and saw it in some of my ideologically inclined friends etc. That is just human behaviour, doesn't matter if it is the Labour, Tory or leader of my gang, we all do this. No "side" has a monopoly on this.
	__________________ I wish I knew how to quit you

14th January 2020, 09:48 AM	#62
Giz Philosopher Join Date: Jul 2002 Posts: 8,709	Originally Posted by wobs They seem to romanticise losing, which I cannot get on board with. I saw this when I saw Mark Thomas (UK political comedian), and saw it in some of my ideologically inclined friends etc. I don’t think it is necessarily romanticizing losing so much as when in adversity, people retreat into their comfort zone. Labour did it with Corbyn The torrid had done it with IDS (Spellcheck! Should be tories not torrid)
Giz Philosopher Join Date: Jul 2002 Posts: 8,709

14th January 2020, 10:58 AM	#63
jimbob Uncritical "thinker" Join Date: Jan 2007 Location: UK Posts: 22,692	Originally Posted by dudalb What part of " the guy led Labor to one of it's worst defeats ever against a very unpopoular Tory leader" don't these nimrods get? And is does not really matter, in the end, why COrbyn is so unpopular, fact remains he IS unpopular, and needs to replaced for not other reason then that. Politics is a cold business. I have no doubt the Tory press smeared Corbyn, but from all I have read the guy made it easy for them to do so with his blunders. It's like keeping the captian of the ship in control after he has ran the ship into an iceberg.... Yup, and remember Corbyn only looked good in 2017 relative to Theresa Strong-n-stable May, one of the most hapless and least charismatic leaders of any major party. He still managed to get fewer votes than her, but after a couple of years, his perceived performance had fallen further.
	__________________ OECD healthcare spending Expenditure on healthcare http://www.oecd.org/els/health-systems/health-data.htm link is 2015 data (2013 Data below): UK 8.5% of GDP of which 83.3% is public expenditure - 7.1% of GDP is public spending US 16.4% of GDP of which 48.2% is public expenditure - 7.9% of GDP is public spending

14th January 2020, 11:10 AM	#64
jimbob Uncritical "thinker" Join Date: Jan 2007 Location: UK Posts: 22,692	Originally Posted by Wudang Was it Healey who talked about people "who perfer the ideological purity of opposition to the hard decisions of power"? I've been in a few Labour discussions where all the loudest Corynistas apparently thought that Labour centrists (i.e. anyone not of their stamp) was the first enemy to be removed. Good call guys, alienate the people you have most common ground with. I think another Corbynista would be a bad idea as they seem totally tone deaf. And the first layoff should have been Seamus. There's been a spike in Labour party membership as a lot of people for various reasons want a say in selecting the next leader. Yup - just because Corbyn lost to an incompetent buffoon, it's no reason to go for another one. Johnson's work ethic and attention to detail is likely to land him in hot water and pretending that Brexit is a good idea is something that will age really badly. Far better to be able to say that you opposed and tried to mitigate it rather than end up tainted with the inevitable disaster. I have often thought that Corbyn likes the luxury of ineffectually attacking something really bad rather than actually trying to fix it. Originally Posted by Giz Yvette Cooper or Kier Starmer sound OK. Only go with Thornberry if you have a burning desire to guarantee Boris wins the next election. Yup
	__________________ OECD healthcare spending Expenditure on healthcare http://www.oecd.org/els/health-systems/health-data.htm link is 2015 data (2013 Data below): UK 8.5% of GDP of which 83.3% is public expenditure - 7.1% of GDP is public spending US 16.4% of GDP of which 48.2% is public expenditure - 7.9% of GDP is public spending Last edited by jimbob; 14th January 2020 at 11:12 AM.

15th January 2020, 03:02 PM	#65
dudalb Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: Sacramento Posts: 49,965	Originally Posted by wobs Andrew Adonis thinks the cause of so many bad leaders, is the way they are elected: https://www.theneweuropean.co.uk/top...tics-1-6166229 This makes sense, as the likes of Corbyn attract cult status among the members, but not much else. Maybe its time to redesign the system. At times, Indirect Democracy works better then Direct Democracy.
	__________________ Pacifism is a shifty doctrine under which a man accepts the benefits of the social group without being willing to pay - and claims a halo for his dishonesty. Robert Heinlein.