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#81 |
Nasty Woman
Join Date: Feb 2005
Posts: 85,883
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#82 | ||
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Hong Kong
Posts: 48,640
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Who's the unjust man, though?
I'm not asking anyone to meet me in the middle. I'm saying I'm considering taking several steps towards the middle myself. I've got what I think are a couple good reasons for doing so, and I'm wondering if there are any Dem candidates who are somewhat close to the middle, from the other side. This seems like it's worth discussing.
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#83 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Aug 2008
Posts: 16,362
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Most independents vote for one party around 90% of the time. The 'getable' independents are not as large a group as you might believe, and hasn't really changed since the 50s.
Also, you are not like most independents in another way; most of everyone doesn't pay much attention to politics actively. Indeed, self-reporting isn't even a very good indication one actually does pay much attention. Remember that 70% of Republicans and 60 something % of independents claim to be paying 'close attention' to the impeachment inquiry, but most are abjectly ignorant of the most basics points of it. Saying one is paying attention and actually paying attention are just not the same thing. Again, that she does well with the people least likely to know much at all about her or are least likely to vote for a Dem is not a good metric. |
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Circled nothing is still nothing. "Nothing will stop the U.S. from being a world leader, not even a handful of adults who want their kids to take science lessons from a book that mentions unicorns six times." -UNLoVedRebel Mumpsimus: a stubborn person who insists on making an error in spite of being shown that it is wrong |
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#84 |
Philosophile
Join Date: Dec 2009
Location: Osaka, Japan
Posts: 29,005
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"The thief and the murderer follow nature just as much as the philanthropist. Cosmic evolution may teach us how the good and the evil tendencies of man may have come about; but, in itself, it is incompetent to furnish any better reason why what we call good is preferable to what we call evil than we had before." "Evolution and Ethics" T.H. Huxley (1893) |
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#85 |
Graduate Poster
Join Date: Mar 2015
Posts: 1,106
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#86 |
Banned
Join Date: Nov 2002
Posts: 2,598
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Actually, it's entirely relevant:
Your comment was ...but this is quite debatable. I, for example, would certainly argue that a much more significant force is the corrupt right wing media that is the driving force of hatred towards liberals/Democrats. And therefore the comment you just erroneously labeled as irrelevant is specifically relevant as a metric with which to compare these driving forces from the competing media. Of course, it's certainly not the only possible metric, and I don't think it's the best metric, either, but you can't deny that it is relevant. Well, I guess you can deny it, but you would simply be wrong. |
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#87 |
Crazy Little Green Dragon
Join Date: Sep 2011
Location: East Coast, US
Posts: 7,354
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*raises an eyebrow* Yes, that she was not there is, in fact, what was meant by "voting not present." It's also true that all the relevant candidates for the complaint have been missing plenty of votes, as usual. With that said, the general practice is to go to great lengths to be there for votes when it matters and contribute. She... chose to be there and push cowardly and nonsensical arguments to justify not taking a stand for what's right. She offered up a call for bipartisanship for the sake of bipartisanship, not for bipartisanship in service of doing good.
Okay. I think that she's completely wrong about that, on the other hand. I'm not sure whether to be happy or unhappy that you think that the only people being appeased were the hardline Democratic base when, at last check, most of the country is thinking that Trump should be impeached and removed. If most of the country is made up of the hardline Democratic base, of course, that would make your logic even more problematic. As for your picture, well... ignoring that the Democrats have, in fact, been fighting hard for the American working class this whole time, including quite a lot during the impeachment matters, is not a good sign of how in touch you actually are. It would be far more appropriate to have a turtle biting that hand reaching up over and over, after all, if you wanted a little more accuracy. |
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So sayeth the crazy little dragon. |
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#88 |
Crazy Little Green Dragon
Join Date: Sep 2011
Location: East Coast, US
Posts: 7,354
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And, as part of that, manufacturing the impression that the MSM is driving liberals to hate conservatives, usually on incredibly tenuous grounds.
To be perfectly clear, there is NO left-wing equivalent of Fox News when it comes to, to use the words of Tobin Smith, long time contributor and insider at Fox News, tribal hate porn. None. Even MSNBC, which is loudly touted as being very partisan in favor of Democrats, mostly as a "see, we're not the only partisans" thing with some very limited truth to that, isn't even remotely in the same league. |
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So sayeth the crazy little dragon. |
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#89 |
Illuminator
Join Date: Apr 2011
Location: United States
Posts: 4,861
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There's no comparison, I agree.
Even if Obama had Eric Holder meet with Rachel Maddow or Chris Matthews or the Comcast CEO in private. |
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#90 |
post-pre-born
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: Santa Barbara, CA
Posts: 24,840
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You're making the mistake of equating political independents with people like you who entertain the positions of both sides, then vote accordingly. Most (nearly all?) independents are such because they don't give a **** about politics and don't bother to vote.
Moreover, while you may pay a lot of political attention, in even numbered years there can be city, county, state and national offices to vote in. There may also be city, county and state judges up for election. There may be city, county and state ballot propositions to vote on, some of which can be quite complex. Even a political junkie cannot be well informed about all of the above. Finally, I question whether one can be fully independent in a Dem/GOP race, especially these days. The two parties are quite far apart. If one cannot see a difference between the two, one is not "independent" but rather has no overarching political perspective by which to make political judgements and thus might better be labeled a "fool". |
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#91 |
post-pre-born
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: Santa Barbara, CA
Posts: 24,840
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I didn't see that as a comment about you personally, at all. Rather, I saw it as a allegory where the "unjust man" is one political party who won't engage the other in honest negotiations. Now, one could paint the Dems or the GOP in that role depending on one's political perspective but the allegory works just the same.
It is. Even though I've used up my quota of snark in response to some of your comments, I see you as an honest political observer who differs substantially from my view. That should not prevent us from engaging each other. If I've been one who has interfered with such a dialog, I apologize; let's start over. True, as I said. Try reading it as the allegory I mentioned above rather than as a personal comment about you.. |
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#92 |
Published Author
Join Date: Feb 2010
Location: Elon, NC
Posts: 7,276
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Actually, no. Latest average is a tie...
ETA..RCP allows you to break it down further along party lines. A majority of both Repubs and Indies oppose. |
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#93 |
Crazy Little Green Dragon
Join Date: Sep 2011
Location: East Coast, US
Posts: 7,354
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Mmm. I generally don't trust RCP unquestioningly. To poke at Media Bias Fact Check - RCP is center right and with "mixed" accuracy, which is barely above low. For stuff like that, 538 is generally much more trustworthy. Looking at 538, it's not so tied. A majority support the impeachment inquiry itself and a plurality support impeachment and removal. Still, yes, it looks like most independents don't support such and not too many Republicans. The relative lack of Republican support is of no surprise whatsoever, of course. As for independents, that's a much more difficult group to gauge, given that independents, in this case, are simply the people who aren't officially Democrats or Republicans, and that they're not doesn't really doesn't say much of anything useful about them. Nearly 20% of independents are people who are largely disengaged from politics, for example. That, alone would be a notable skewing factor, before getting to the rest.
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So sayeth the crazy little dragon. |
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#94 |
Published Author
Join Date: Feb 2010
Location: Elon, NC
Posts: 7,276
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Actually, 538s numbers are based on impeachment and/or removal, Not both. https://projects.fivethirtyeight.com/impeachment-polls/
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#95 |
Self Employed
Remittance Man Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: Florida
Posts: 29,980
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Julian Castro has officially ended his campaign, making one final statement about the unfairness of overly white states voting first in the primaries.
https://www.cnn.com/2020/01/02/polit...ign/index.html |
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Yahtzee: "You're doing that thing again where when asked a question you just discuss the philosophy of the question instead of answering the bloody question." Gabriel: "Well yeah, you see..." Yahtzee: "No. When you are asked a Yes or No question the first word out of your mouth needs to be Yes or No. Only after that have you earned the right to elaborate." |
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#96 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Feb 2004
Location: Puget Sound
Posts: 15,372
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To survive election season on a skeptics forum, one must understand Hymie-the-Robot.
My authority is total - Trump |
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#97 |
Philosopher
Join Date: Apr 2018
Location: Massachusetts, USA
Posts: 7,305
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He's right about the absurd importance that NH and Iowa have just by being the first states to vote, but I don't really see that as the core reason why his campaign failed.
It's a crowded field. He's a good candidate, but didn't really seem to be anyone's first choice. He has polled poorly even outside lily-white states like Iowa. |
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Gobble gobble |
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#98 |
Published Author
Join Date: Feb 2010
Location: Elon, NC
Posts: 7,276
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Although there is some truth to what you are saying, a good many of these polls are with "likely voters", meaning they have voted previously and probably recently. Even among the registered voter polls, they cared enough to register. On the adult polls, it may be your argument has more meaning.
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#99 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Hong Kong
Posts: 48,640
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Thank you. I appreciate the insight.
I'd be more inclined to accept the "non-personal allegory" explanation, if it weren't for a couple of things. First, we weren't talking about the parties, or their rhetoric (real and imagined). We were talking about my thoughts on voting for a Democrat. Second, JoeMorgue invoked this party rhetoric trope specifically to dismiss my idea, comparing me to an abusive spouse in the process. Other members then started riffing on that theme. So it seems to me that it was a strawman, deployed to dismiss my idea, insult me to my face, and shout down any attempt at discussion. Tyr gets a minor pass because apparently he has me on soft ignore, and just doesn't trust me anyway. |
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#100 |
Published Author
Join Date: Feb 2010
Location: Elon, NC
Posts: 7,276
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To this last point, being Indie has it's advantages. In my state I can vote in either the Dem or the GOP primary. In 2016 I voted in the GOP primary and in 2018 the Den primary. That way I can support who I think is the best candidate, rather than being limited to one party or another.
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#101 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: May 2006
Posts: 18,168
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Fourth quarter fundraising numbers:
Bernie Sanders: $34.5 million Pete Buttigieg: $24.7 million Joe Biden: $22.7 million Andrew Yang: $16.5 million Apparently Warren hasn't announced a total yet, but she was at about $17 million a week ago. BTW, we hear endlessly from the liberals around here about how we have to make it as easy as possible to vote. How do they defend the Iowa caucuses? Think about how profoundly undemocratic they are: They require a full evening (on a school night in the middle of winter, no less), which means no young parents without hiring a babysitter. If your preferred candidate does not get at least 15% of the vote in your individual caucus, you either have to switch to another candidate or leave. The hard part here is that if your preferred candidate is doing well in other caucuses, you may be undercutting them by switching. |
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My new blog: Recent Reads. 1960s Comic Book Nostalgia Visit the Screw Loose Change blog. |
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#102 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Hong Kong
Posts: 48,640
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Party primaries aren't the same as general elections
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#103 |
Philosophile
Join Date: Dec 2009
Location: Osaka, Japan
Posts: 29,005
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"The thief and the murderer follow nature just as much as the philanthropist. Cosmic evolution may teach us how the good and the evil tendencies of man may have come about; but, in itself, it is incompetent to furnish any better reason why what we call good is preferable to what we call evil than we had before." "Evolution and Ethics" T.H. Huxley (1893) |
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#104 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Hong Kong
Posts: 48,640
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#105 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Dec 2012
Posts: 27,986
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Just because I'm paranoid doesn't mean they're not out to get to me. . |
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#106 |
Self Employed
Remittance Man Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: Florida
Posts: 29,980
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How the parties run their own internal screening processes (I actually think calling me 'elections' and using associated terminology in reference to them is bad, although I get that it is the established and common way of doing it) is a red herring, it's not the problem.
If the GOP and Dems want to pick their candidate by double elimination poker tournaments, more power to them. The problem is in an ingrained two party system enabled by first past the post voting that makes them the only viable candidates. |
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Yahtzee: "You're doing that thing again where when asked a question you just discuss the philosophy of the question instead of answering the bloody question." Gabriel: "Well yeah, you see..." Yahtzee: "No. When you are asked a Yes or No question the first word out of your mouth needs to be Yes or No. Only after that have you earned the right to elaborate." |
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#107 |
Philosopher
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Sweden
Posts: 6,769
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Quote:
Targeting homeless people and others "who literally don’t ever vote" sounds like an very good strategy... but only if you offer them gifts in return and are willing to drive them to voting place. |
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We would be a lot safer if the Government would take its money out of science and put it into astrology and the reading of palms. Only in superstition is there hope. - Kurt Vonnegut Jr And no, Cuba is not a brutal and corrupt dictatorship, and it's definitely less so than Sweden. - dann |
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#108 |
Self Employed
Remittance Man Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: Florida
Posts: 29,980
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"You get in power and then help the powerless, not try and use the powerless to get into power because of ya know the whole 'powerless' thing" is one of those things a lot of Democrats are still having trouble grasping.
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Yahtzee: "You're doing that thing again where when asked a question you just discuss the philosophy of the question instead of answering the bloody question." Gabriel: "Well yeah, you see..." Yahtzee: "No. When you are asked a Yes or No question the first word out of your mouth needs to be Yes or No. Only after that have you earned the right to elaborate." |
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#109 |
Philosophile
Join Date: Dec 2009
Location: Osaka, Japan
Posts: 29,005
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"The thief and the murderer follow nature just as much as the philanthropist. Cosmic evolution may teach us how the good and the evil tendencies of man may have come about; but, in itself, it is incompetent to furnish any better reason why what we call good is preferable to what we call evil than we had before." "Evolution and Ethics" T.H. Huxley (1893) |
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#110 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: May 2006
Posts: 18,168
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Here's something the Democrats could change by themselves to improve fairness and the response, predictably is a tu quoque. I realize it's not as sexy as eliminating the electoral college, combining a few states and getting rid of the Senate, but it is something that is actually achievable, unlike those pipedreams.
And you might want to consider caring about the Iowa caucuses; since 2000 the winner in Iowa has gone on to be the Democratic nominee every time. |
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My new blog: Recent Reads. 1960s Comic Book Nostalgia Visit the Screw Loose Change blog. |
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#111 |
Philosopher
Join Date: Jun 2012
Location: Mounts Farm
Posts: 6,081
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"Well, a statement like that is all the better for proof, but go on, anyway." - Salvor Hardin |
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#112 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Jun 2003
Posts: 48,027
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Castro’s Campaign Fails As Democrats Realize His First Name Isn’t Fidel
It's satire... but is it really? |
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"As long as it is admitted that the law may be diverted from its true purpose -- that it may violate property instead of protecting it -- then everyone will want to participate in making the law, either to protect himself against plunder or to use it for plunder. Political questions will always be prejudicial, dominant, and all-absorbing. There will be fighting at the door of the Legislative Palace, and the struggle within will be no less furious." - Bastiat, The Law |
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#113 |
Crazy Little Green Dragon
Join Date: Sep 2011
Location: East Coast, US
Posts: 7,354
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Oh? You're saying that it's a situation like Fox's polling? Where the polling itself is rated highly, but Fox puts inane, highly partisan spin on it when it talks about it?
Err, not quite. That's only if you're going by the short-hand. To poke at the definitions that they give for the categories - Impeach = "Polls asking if Congress should impeach/impeach and remove Trump" Remove = "Polls asking if Congress should remove Trump" That is a nice advantage. It'd be nice if it were all states like that, either way. I'm in a state where it's only Democrats for Democrats and Republicans for Republicans. Honestly, I've only really seen unhappiness and complaints when it comes to them from liberal Democrats. You mentioned some of the reasons, too. So the simple answer there is... they don't defend Iowa caucuses. To repeat, I don't think I've seen any liberal Democrats defend them. Feel free to point me at any if you come across them, though. In other news... Mmm. Warren's newest plan deals with people with disabilities. To poke at a couple things it addresses -
Quote:
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So sayeth the crazy little dragon. |
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#114 |
Banned
Join Date: Nov 2002
Posts: 2,598
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#115 |
Master Poster
Join Date: Nov 2014
Posts: 2,809
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"As it was in the days of Noah, so will it be at the coming of the Son of Man." - Matthew 24:37 "And when these things begin to come to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads; for your redemption draweth nigh." - Luke 21:28 |
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#116 |
Master Poster
Join Date: Nov 2014
Posts: 2,809
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Why is there so little attention paid to Tom Steyer? He has the economic credentials of Buffett as a successful businessman WIHTOUT the elitist overtones, and none of the problematic aspects of Gabbard and Buttigeig's ties to big money and racism.
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"As it was in the days of Noah, so will it be at the coming of the Son of Man." - Matthew 24:37 "And when these things begin to come to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads; for your redemption draweth nigh." - Luke 21:28 |
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#117 |
Illuminator
Join Date: Apr 2011
Location: United States
Posts: 4,861
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#118 |
Fiend God
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: In a post-fact world
Posts: 91,292
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#119 |
Fiend God
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: In a post-fact world
Posts: 91,292
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#120 |
Fiend God
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: In a post-fact world
Posts: 91,292
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