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Tags 2020 elections , democratic party , presidential candidates

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Old 10th January 2020, 06:10 PM   #241
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Originally Posted by Delphic Oracle View Post
Spoke wit a Yang supporter who says he's talked to local business owners who say $15/hr. will put them out of business or make them cut payroll and that's why UBI is better.

I asked for the funding specifics and at first it was "make *insert evil tech company here* pay their taxes." I managed to get down to basics a bit more and heard VAT tax, carbon tax, and economic boost of UBI itself.

Which ends up with the same result, businesses will have increased expenses and have to cut payroll.
I can't tell you how many years I've heard business owners make statements like this. If we raise the minimum wage to $1.75, $2.50, $3.50 etc. I'll go out of business. It rarely is actually true.

One of the biggest problems in America is just how underpaid most of America is.
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Old 10th January 2020, 06:53 PM   #242
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Originally Posted by Delphic Oracle View Post
Spoke wit a Yang supporter who says he's talked to local business owners who say $15/hr. will put them out of business or make them cut payroll and that's why UBI is better.
I wouldn't put much stock in that reply. Every time there's a change in business conditions such as minimum wage, regulatory conditions, etc. the doomsday portion of industry will claim disaster. Then, we when such changes occur, they just keep on truckin'.

ETA: lost the posting race to acbytesla.

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Old 10th January 2020, 06:56 PM   #243
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
Haters gonna hate. I would have voted for Williamson in a heartbeat.
C 'mon, theprestige, you say you are considering voting Dem and want a serious discussion about it, then you go and pull a boner like this. Williamson is no more qualified than Trump to be prez.

Just tell us you were joshin' us for ****s and giggles.
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Old 10th January 2020, 08:07 PM   #244
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Bernie Sanders has got to win Iowa in my opinion.

Just today everyone's reported that Sanders is leading.

But numbers are all over the place.
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Old 10th January 2020, 09:14 PM   #245
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Originally Posted by acbytesla View Post
I can't tell you how many years I've heard business owners make statements like this. If we raise the minimum wage to $1.75, $2.50, $3.50 etc. I'll go out of business. It rarely is actually true.



One of the biggest problems in America is just how underpaid most of America is.
That was definitely earlier on in the conversation, but of course goes into specifics only those who's second hand anecdotes were discussed, so I picked at him to discuss the particulars of Yang's revenue model for it.

It took a lot of patiently wading through what I felt were emotional overrides, such as the aforementioned punishing of greedy tax avoiding companies, "better healthcare and education outcomes", reduced poverty, etc. But yeah, an $800B VAT is in there among other new streams of government revenue (can't put that part up front in bold letters, though :9). At that point it was easy work to show him how even if not levied on a small business directly, it raises their merchandise costs, vendor costs, nearly every model of small business is going to purchase goods or services impacted by those extra costs.

Certainly, they'll cry doom over it. My main point was not to go pooh-poohing one plan to present your own favorite when they both have the same basic issue of changing the balance of expenses to income every business faces.
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Old 10th January 2020, 09:57 PM   #246
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Originally Posted by acbytesla View Post
I can't tell you how many years I've heard business owners make statements like this. If we raise the minimum wage to $1.75, $2.50, $3.50 etc. I'll go out of business. It rarely is actually true.

One of the biggest problems in America is just how underpaid most of America is.
So why not raise the minimum wage to $100 an hour? Or is there a point where the business owners might be right?
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Old 10th January 2020, 10:54 PM   #247
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Originally Posted by Brainster View Post
So why not raise the minimum wage to $100 an hour? Or is there a point where the business owners might be right?
Probably, but it's never the figure that is being suggested.

The bigger problem of course is the solution to these issues are much more complicated than people are willing to address. The distribution of income and wealth has grown so tilted that it requires a radical solution. Capitalism is the greatest producer of wealth invented but we need to find ways to make it benefit more than just a few.
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Old 10th January 2020, 11:31 PM   #248
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Originally Posted by SezMe View Post
C 'mon, theprestige, you say you are considering voting Dem and want a serious discussion about it, then you go and pull a boner like this. Williamson is no more qualified than Trump to be prez.

Just tell us you were joshin' us for ****s and giggles.
He's explained his reasoning for favoring Williamson before and it was... understandable, albeit puerile. The kind of reasoning that some Democrats likely engaged in when voting for Trump.

Originally Posted by acbytesla View Post
Probably, but it's never the figure that is being suggested.
No need to worry, business owners regularly solve issues like that with immigrant labor. Sometimes even the kind of immigrant labor that they don't even remotely pay the official minimum wage or the kind that keeps receiving notable arbitrary cuts in what they receive.

Originally Posted by acbytesla View Post
The bigger problem of course is the solution to these issues are much more complicated than people are willing to address. The distribution of income and wealth has grown so tilted that it requires a radical solution. Capitalism is the greatest producer of wealth invented but we need to find ways to make it benefit more than just a few.
Is it worth pointing out, again, that we have a number of fairly well working examples of exactly that happening that we could take cues from?
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Old 11th January 2020, 04:16 AM   #249
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
Haters gonna hate. I would have voted for Williamson in a heartbeat.
Just like TBD voted for Bernie.
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Old 11th January 2020, 06:39 AM   #250
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Originally Posted by SezMe View Post
C 'mon, theprestige, you say you are considering voting Dem and want a serious discussion about it, then you go and pull a boner like this. Williamson is no more qualified than Trump to be prez.

Just tell us you were joshin' us for ****s and giggles.
Relax. I'm seriously considering voting Dem. I'm right here any time you want to engage in serious discussion about it instead of this uncivil crap.

Seriously, Willaimson is probably not the best choice. Her heart's in the right place. But her woo is probably something that should be kept out of the pulpit.
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Old 11th January 2020, 06:40 AM   #251
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Originally Posted by Belz... View Post
Just like TBD voted for Bernie.
Can't speak for him, but I did. California open primaries.
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Old 11th January 2020, 09:36 AM   #252
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The white middle class was confused in 2016. Sure there was Hillary, but looking in a broad sense, it is very simple:
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Old 11th January 2020, 10:44 AM   #253
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Trump is losing MI WI etc
https://www.realclearpolitics.com/ep...iden-6761.html
He may still get Ohio and maybe Florida but that does not get him there.
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Old 11th January 2020, 01:54 PM   #254
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On the RCP Betting odds page (based on British bookmakers), Mayor Pete has now slipped to fifth place at 10.8%, behind Bloomberg at 12.5% and Warren at 13.8%. Meanwhile, Bernie (29.4%) continues his hard charge at frontrunner Biden (33.5%).
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Old 11th January 2020, 02:05 PM   #255
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Originally Posted by Brainster View Post
On the RCP Betting odds page (based on British bookmakers), Mayor Pete has now slipped to fifth place at 10.8%, behind Bloomberg at 12.5% and Warren at 13.8%. Meanwhile, Bernie (29.4%) continues his hard charge at frontrunner Biden (33.5%).
Great to hear.

I can't wait to see the people who hide behind the "Bernie has no shot" hold their nose for him in the general.

Because party unity...right?
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Old 11th January 2020, 02:14 PM   #256
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Originally Posted by Belz... View Post
Just like TBD voted for Bernie.
Except Bernie is actually a good candidate. Williamson doesn't make sense from any perspective.
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Old 11th January 2020, 02:21 PM   #257
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In the 3rd quarter of last year, Socialist Bernie spent $360,000 on private jet travel. Looks like he hasn't bought into the climate change hoax. Ditto for Biden and Mayor Pete, who spent $944,000 and $443,000 on private jet travel respectively. Hypocrisy On Parade!!!

https://www.cnbc.com/2019/10/17/joe-...ic-rivals.html

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Old 11th January 2020, 02:22 PM   #258
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Originally Posted by Venom View Post
Great to hear.

I can't wait to see the people who hide behind the "Bernie has no shot" hold their nose for him in the general.

Because party unity...right?
I'll vote for him happily. I'm just more afraid he'd lose.
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Old 11th January 2020, 02:24 PM   #259
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Originally Posted by BrooklynBaby View Post
In the 3rd quarter of last year, Socialist Bernie spent $360,000 on private jet travel. Looks like he hasn't bought into the climate change hoax. Ditto for Biden and Mayor Pete, who spent $944,000 and $443,000 on private jet travel respectively. Hypocrisy On Parade!!!

https://www.cnbc.com/2019/10/17/joe-...ic-rivals.html
What are they supposed to do? Bicycle to their next campaign stops?
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Old 11th January 2020, 02:50 PM   #260
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Originally Posted by acbytesla View Post
I'll vote for him happily. I'm just more afraid he'd lose.
Would you vote for him if he led in your state over Biden?
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Old 11th January 2020, 03:06 PM   #261
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Originally Posted by Venom View Post
Would you vote for him if he led in your state over Biden?
If he's the nominee, he has my vote. But that goes for any Democrat running.
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Old 11th January 2020, 03:44 PM   #262
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Originally Posted by acbytesla View Post
What are they supposed to do? Bicycle to their next campaign stops?
Why not fly commercial, get out there and rub elbows with the rest of the working stiffs they hope will vote for them?
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Old 11th January 2020, 04:03 PM   #263
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Originally Posted by Mike! View Post
Why not fly commercial, get out there and rub elbows with the rest of the working stiffs they hope will vote for them?
Because their campaign schedules may not sync well with commercial airline schedules. How many commercial flights a day can you catch between Podunk Iowa and Bumfook, NH?
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Old 11th January 2020, 05:36 PM   #264
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Originally Posted by acbytesla View Post
What are they supposed to do? Bicycle to their next campaign stops?
Yeah, they're just "living in the world" like AOC said when asked about the $19,000 she had spent on non-green travel around DC in just a few months for her and her staff.

Recall that Biden wants to jail fossil fuel executives, perhaps too stupid to understand he couldn't get around the country and run for office without them.
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Old 11th January 2020, 05:41 PM   #265
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Originally Posted by BrooklynBaby View Post
Yeah, they're just "living in the world" like AOC said when asked about the $19,000 she had spent on non-green travel around DC in just a few months for her and her staff.

Recall that Biden wants to jail fossil fuel executives, perhaps too stupid to understand he couldn't get around the country and run for office without them.
I've read many stupid posts in this forum. Clearly, that post is competing for the top spot.
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Old 11th January 2020, 06:29 PM   #266
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give it a Political Stundie.
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Old 11th January 2020, 09:40 PM   #267
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Originally Posted by BrooklynBaby View Post
Yeah, they're just "living in the world" like AOC said when asked about the $19,000 she had spent on non-green travel around DC in just a few months for her and her staff.

Recall that Biden wants to jail fossil fuel executives, perhaps too stupid to understand he couldn't get around the country and run for office without them.
The idea is for the plebs to give up travel, not important bigshots like AOC and Joe Biden. They can jet around all they want; once they are elected they can stop the rise of the seas just by telling the media not to write about it.
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Old 12th January 2020, 12:39 AM   #268
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How many passengers total on the private flights?

Work out some fuel consumed/passenger figures and compare it to commercial flights, then get back to me.

Otherwise, like ACBT said, what do you expect a candidate anyone can actually meet to do?

Some brief looking around suggests that while it is more expensive per passenger in dollars (economies of scale, basically), a light private aircraft is vastly more efficient in fuel economy. Direct comparisons are hard to make because they are performing vastly different roles. So if they are hopping around early voting states hitting mid-sized cities, their only other option is spending half a day getting on a little jet to get on a big jet to get on another little jet because the commercial airlines aren't built for short, direct hops. There's no way they'd have a lower carbon footprint flying commercial.

ETA: So what else? Trains? Charter buses? I know, a caravan of electric cars. In the middle of Iowa. Is there a...uh...charge-port around here somewhere?

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Old 12th January 2020, 04:10 AM   #269
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Originally Posted by Brainster View Post
The idea is for the plebs to give up travel, not important bigshots like AOC and Joe Biden. They can jet around all they want; once they are elected they can stop the rise of the seas just by telling the media not to write about it.


Clearly, you and bb are either trolling or you've bought into that utterly nonsensical right-wing selected caricature. Either way, this is so far beyond inane that it's not even worth the time it would take to rip it to shreds.
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Old 12th January 2020, 04:29 AM   #270
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Originally Posted by acbytesla View Post
I can't tell you how many years I've heard business owners make statements like this. If we raise the minimum wage to $1.75, $2.50, $3.50 etc. I'll go out of business. It rarely is actually true.

One of the biggest problems in America is just how underpaid most of America is.
“Do not let any calamity-howling executive with an income of $1,000 a day, who has been turning his employees over to the Government relief rolls in order to preserve his company’s undistributed reserves, tell you – using his stockholders’ money to pay the postage for his personal opinions — tell you that a wage of $11.00 a week is going to have a disastrous effect on all American industry.” (1938, Fireside Chat, the night before signing the Fair Labor Standards Act that instituted the federal minimum wage)

“No business which depends for existence on paying less than living wages to its workers has any right to continue in this country. By living wages, I mean more than a bare subsistence level — I mean the wages of a decent living.” (1933, Statement on National Industrial Recovery Act)
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Old 12th January 2020, 05:33 AM   #271
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Originally Posted by Delphic Oracle View Post
How many passengers total on the private flights?

Work out some fuel consumed/passenger figures and compare it to commercial flights, then get back to me.

Otherwise, like ACBT said, what do you expect a candidate anyone can actually meet to do?

Some brief looking around suggests that while it is more expensive per passenger in dollars (economies of scale, basically), a light private aircraft is vastly more efficient in fuel economy. Direct comparisons are hard to make because they are performing vastly different roles. So if they are hopping around early voting states hitting mid-sized cities, their only other option is spending half a day getting on a little jet to get on a big jet to get on another little jet because the commercial airlines aren't built for short, direct hops. There's no way they'd have a lower carbon footprint flying commercial.

ETA: So what else? Trains? Charter buses? I know, a caravan of electric cars. In the middle of Iowa. Is there a...uh...charge-port around here somewhere?
The answer is for them to not travel.
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Old 12th January 2020, 05:51 AM   #272
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Originally Posted by BrooklynBaby View Post
In the 3rd quarter of last year, Socialist Bernie spent $360,000 on private jet travel. Looks like he hasn't bought into the climate change hoax.
We've been through this before, man. Please learn.

First of all, it's not a hoax when observation shows that the last two decades have almost all of the highest years on record since a century and a half. Second, accepting something as true in no way implies that one will act on it immediately and fully. If it did, the GOP would no longer be considered the party of fiscal responsibility, and family values.
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Old 12th January 2020, 06:49 AM   #273
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I'm in contact with some of the Democrats here in the prairie. As our votes generally mean nothing at all, there is a strange excitement about the democrats in the primary. I've seen the Andrew Yang group and Warren group plan on going door to door (just with Democratic voters, we apparently have a list).

But then after there is a candidate, the Democrats can barely get excited to vote in Nov. Only the county level issues on the same ballot we get some enthusiasm. The state, with the few electors, goes to Trump. Obama was the only time there was a chance to go Democrat in recent times.

I'm not even sure what effect we had on the Hillary vs Sanders battle last time.
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Old 12th January 2020, 03:33 PM   #274
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Hmm. Here's an interesting piece on older black voter reasoning and support.

Biden's in first, unsurprisingly. Why? To sum it up in a simple quote...

Quote:
Committee members see their relationship with Biden as transactional, not trust and love; he’s the one Democrat that will owe black folks the most if he wins, and thus he’s more likely to deliver when he does.
Warren was second.

Quote:
Warren had a good week and the committee liked her endorsement from Julián Castro, her Bankruptcy plan and everyone noted that she had a literal plan for everything. So what’s the drawback? First, most committee members don’t believe America will elect a female president against Donald Trump; second, they believe she probably can’t get half the things she’s promising passed.
Third was Bernie.

Quote:
“Bernie would do more for black people than Biden, but he’s totally unelectable. Middle-class white people are not going for all that free ****. They say they will, but they don’t want to share with black folks or Latinos, so they always back out at the polls. They just won’t do it. Rich liberal white people like his plans in theory, but they won’t vote for a socialist.”
Fourth was Steyer.

Quote:
Several committee members ranked Steyer very high due to him putting his money where his politics are before getting into politics. This includes his work on climate change, impeachment, and especially his Beneficial State Bank Program to help black folks secure loans for housing. The committee believes that a white man who’d spend his own money to improve the lives of black people might actually do the same when it’s actually his JOB as president. Imagine that?
They go up to ten, but... read the article yourself if you want more.
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Old 12th January 2020, 04:44 PM   #275
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Originally Posted by acbytesla View Post
I've read many stupid posts in this forum. Clearly, that post is competing for the top spot.
Originally Posted by Brainster View Post
The idea is for the plebs to give up travel, not important bigshots like AOC and Joe Biden. They can jet around all they want; once they are elected they can stop the rise of the seas just by telling the media not to write about it.
Another competitor.

Total ******* nonsense. Even us plebes know this is farmers spreading cow manure hoping to sow discontent.

I've known Bernie Sanders for decades. I picked him up at an airport where he flew commercially accross the country. He was carrying his own bag and he did that just to meet with a bunch of striking nurses.

You do what you have to do. Want to win the presidency? Then you have to travel like you have never traveled before. You're constantly moving from one speech to your next speech to meeting after meeting to party after party. These guys take 2, 3, 4 flights in one day. Commercial flights have schedules. They aren't going to mesh well with any Presidential campaign requirements.
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Old 12th January 2020, 06:21 PM   #276
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Originally Posted by Aridas View Post
...
Fourth was Steyer....
"Movin on up..."
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Old 12th January 2020, 06:47 PM   #277
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Originally Posted by acbytesla View Post
Another competitor.

Total ******* nonsense. Even us plebes know this is farmers spreading cow manure hoping to sow discontent.

I've known Bernie Sanders for decades. I picked him up at an airport where he flew commercially accross the country. He was carrying his own bag and he did that just to meet with a bunch of striking nurses.

You do what you have to do. Want to win the presidency? Then you have to travel like you have never traveled before. You're constantly moving from one speech to your next speech to meeting after meeting to party after party. These guys take 2, 3, 4 flights in one day. Commercial flights have schedules. They aren't going to mesh well with any Presidential campaign requirements.
I can get the logistics as far as Iowa-DC or Iowa-NH or DC-NH, The DNC could at least create a rule that in-state transit must be done by bus.
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Old 12th January 2020, 06:50 PM   #278
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Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger View Post
"Movin on up..."
I want Bernie or Warren. But I DON'T think they can win in a general Presidential election. So, I am pretty sure that the Democrats should temper their aspirations.
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Old 12th January 2020, 06:56 PM   #279
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Originally Posted by acbytesla View Post
I want Bernie or Warren. But I DON'T think they can win in a general Presidential election. So, I am pretty sure that the Democrats should temper their aspirations.
Who _do_ you think can win?
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Old 12th January 2020, 07:01 PM   #280
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Originally Posted by Belz... View Post
Who _do_ you think can win?
Biden or Bloomberg, probably.
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