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Tags 2020 elections , democratic party , presidential candidates

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Old 12th January 2020, 07:03 PM   #281
acbytesla
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Originally Posted by Belz... View Post
Who _do_ you think can win?
I don't know. I do think we are better off running a moderate. A lot of people despise Trump but at the same time might be too afraid of what they think is the Doc Brown of Socialism or Warren's messaging. I'm tilting toward Klobuchar/Biden/Bloomberg
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Old 12th January 2020, 08:25 PM   #282
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Originally Posted by acbytesla View Post
I want Bernie or Warren. But I DON'T think they can win in a general Presidential election. So, I am pretty sure that the Democrats should temper their aspirations.
Why do you think Bernie Sanders cannot win a general election?

He's basically in the same position Obama was in after 8 years of Bush, which 4 years of Trump more or less feels like. He's in that Obama niche. And like Obama, he's running on a progressive platform. The difference is unlike Obama he's not going to sit back passively if the Republicans try to resist his agenda.
He's old yes, but he makes up for that with more name recognition than Obama had when he first ran.
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Old 12th January 2020, 08:27 PM   #283
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Originally Posted by acbytesla View Post
I don't know. I do think we are better off running a moderate. A lot of people despise Trump but at the same time might be too afraid of what they think is the Doc Brown of Socialism or Warren's messaging. I'm tilting toward Klobuchar/Biden/Bloomberg
You think Klobuchar can energize the Democratic electorate against Trump more than Sanders??
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Old 12th January 2020, 08:59 PM   #284
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Originally Posted by Trebuchet View Post
Biden or Bloomberg, probably.
Biden will fail the minute the GOP starts attacking him. They have an immense amount of ammunition.

Bloomberg or Steyer.

Sanders has a good chance with his following provided the GOP isn't successful with the socialism scare-mongering. But they will try and Sanders is vulnerable.
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Old 12th January 2020, 09:46 PM   #285
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Originally Posted by acbytesla View Post
I want Bernie or Warren. But I DON'T think they can win in a general Presidential election. So, I am pretty sure that the Democrats should temper their aspirations.
To disagree a bit, I think that Warren definitely could win. I'm not so sure about Biden and Bernie. Biden because, well, first and foremost, he's not inspiring. Just about no one actually wants him, but they're cynically willing to support him. Furthermore, his ground game seems particularly weak and his fundraising was... meh, especially given how much time and effort he's put in. Going further, the portion of his campaign fundraising that's from big money is quite problematic, He's was at roughly Warren's level of fundraising from overwhelmingly fewer donors. On the both positive and negative side, of note, the Russians are focusing on him most of all in their ongoing attacks.

Bernie, well, Bernie's something of a wildcard. He has a great grassroots organization and excellent fundraising. But... I share the concerns of that older black voter.

Quote:
“Bernie would do more for black people than Biden, but he’s totally unelectable. Middle-class white people are not going for all that free ****. They say they will, but they don’t want to share with black folks or Latinos, so they always back out at the polls. They just won’t do it. Rich liberal white people like his plans in theory, but they won’t vote for a socialist.”
Going a bit further, "socialism" has become and is becoming much, much less toxic than it was, but there's still a bit too much of a distance to go for me to think that Bernie is especially likely to win.
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Old 12th January 2020, 09:49 PM   #286
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Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger View Post
Biden will fail the minute the GOP starts attacking him. They have an immense amount of ammunition.

Bloomberg or Steyer.

Sanders has a good chance with his following provided the GOP isn't successful with the socialism scare-mongering. But they will try and Sanders is vulnerable.
Mmm. As a note, it's probably worth noting that Bloomberg's favorability is currently overwhelmingly lower than Biden's.
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Old 12th January 2020, 09:57 PM   #287
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Bloomberg and Steyer are stale and their billionaire status and Bloomberg's sensitive record might hurt them.

Biden will fizzle out.

I hope Warren drops out soon and endorses Sanders.
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Old 12th January 2020, 10:18 PM   #288
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Originally Posted by Aridas View Post
Mmm. As a note, it's probably worth noting that Bloomberg's favorability is currently overwhelmingly lower than Biden's.
Which just shows you how worthless polling a year ahead is.
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Old 12th January 2020, 10:19 PM   #289
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Originally Posted by Venom View Post
Bloomberg and Steyer are stale and their billionaire status and Bloomberg's sensitive record might hurt them.

Biden will fizzle out.

I hope Warren drops out soon and endorses Sanders.
Stale?
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Old 13th January 2020, 12:37 AM   #290
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Forget "Electability"

Many past (and current) Presidents were considered undetectable until they won the nomination, and sometimes not even then.
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Old 13th January 2020, 06:41 AM   #291
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Again, stop worrying about the "socialism" label. The Republicans have already decided the entire Democratic Party is a bunch of socialists. McConnell went on Chris Wallace's show na few months ago and said Biden would bring socialism. Someone (McCarty?) this weekend accused Buttigieg of being a socialist.

You know what will make that socialism label hurt the Dems? By recoiling every time the Republicans trot it out. Getting super defensive about it, because then the Weakling will make the whole election about socialism. The Dems will wilt and constantly stumble over themselves trying to explain it away, no matter who the nominee is. Whoever the nominee is, the entire party has to back them and not shy away from whatever stupid label gets thrown around.
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Old 13th January 2020, 07:29 AM   #292
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Trump and pals have mastered the social media. You just shout out slogans on Twitter. If you mention socialism, you lose. If you don't mention socialism, they win over all the people they won last time. Just by repeating the slogan. Because people fear socialism. The government is going to tell you how to do everything and no "freedom."
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Old 13th January 2020, 07:39 AM   #293
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Originally Posted by Donal View Post
Again, stop worrying about the "socialism" label. The Republicans have already decided the entire Democratic Party is a bunch of socialists. McConnell went on Chris Wallace's show na few months ago and said Biden would bring socialism. Someone (McCarty?) this weekend accused Buttigieg of being a socialist.

You know what will make that socialism label hurt the Dems? By recoiling every time the Republicans trot it out. Getting super defensive about it, because then the Weakling will make the whole election about socialism. The Dems will wilt and constantly stumble over themselves trying to explain it away, no matter who the nominee is. Whoever the nominee is, the entire party has to back them and not shy away from whatever stupid label gets thrown around.
It's not who will they use that attack against -- yes, any candidate will be on the receiving end. It's the degree to which it sticks. Bernie is uniquely problematic due to his self identification, reinforced by his policies. It may be that what he brings will offset that effect. I dunno but it's something that concerns me.
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Old 13th January 2020, 07:52 AM   #294
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Originally Posted by Donal View Post
Again, stop worrying about the "socialism" label. The Republicans have already decided the entire Democratic Party is a bunch of socialists. McConnell went on Chris Wallace's show na few months ago and said Biden would bring socialism. Someone (McCarty?) this weekend accused Buttigieg of being a socialist.
Taking this a step back even further and broader politics and discussion therefore is hurt a lot these days because we're still using terms that were established in their current, modern usage by Political Scientists back, mostly, in the mid-1800s and their usage, while not like technically wrong, is often not exactly right either in this day and age and we should be beholden to them as if they are natural laws.
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Old 13th January 2020, 08:03 AM   #295
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Originally Posted by varwoche View Post
It's not who will they use that attack against -- yes, any candidate will be on the receiving end. It's the degree to which it sticks. Bernie is uniquely problematic due to his self identification, reinforced by his policies. It may be that what he brings will offset that effect. I dunno but it's something that concerns me.
I mean, FDR had an openly socialist VP in the goddamned 1940s. Perhaps if the Dems actually got out in front of something and shaped the narrative themselves*, they might actually be able to sell their policies as good for the American people.

* this would require a level of competence we have yet to see from DNC leadership.
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Old 13th January 2020, 09:05 AM   #296
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Cory Booker has officially ended his campaign for President, about 6 months after everyone who isn't named Cory Booker already forgot the last time they thought about Cory Booker running for President.

https://www.cnn.com/2020/01/13/polit...ace/index.html
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Old 13th January 2020, 09:16 AM   #297
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There was a documentary years ago called Street Fight about his campaign for mayor of Newark. It really endeared him to me and my wife. I think he's too cozy with the pharma industry and he's corny as hell, but I also think he's as fake as I have seen some people say. He's just been eaten up by the machine.

He's young and charismatic enough to come back in the future.
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Old 13th January 2020, 09:18 AM   #298
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Also, socialism in the 40s wasn't the damaged goods it became later, when the excesses and horrors of Soviet communism became more widely known and acknowledged as such.
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Old 13th January 2020, 09:23 AM   #299
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Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
Taking this a step back even further and broader politics and discussion therefore is hurt a lot these days because we're still using terms that were established in their current, modern usage by Political Scientists back, mostly, in the mid-1800s and their usage, while not like technically wrong, is often not exactly right either in this day and age and we should be beholden to them as if they are natural laws.

For a fair number of people, they're just buzzwords, with no understanding of what they mean anyway.

"He's a Socialist!!"
"What does Socialism mean?"
"Uh ... bad things."

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Old 13th January 2020, 09:25 AM   #300
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Originally Posted by The Great Zaganza View Post
Forget "Electability"

Many past (and current) Presidents were considered undetectable until they won the nomination, and sometimes not even then.
With Trump being the most recent example.

Originally Posted by Donal View Post
Again, stop worrying about the "socialism" label. The Republicans have already decided the entire Democratic Party is a bunch of socialists. McConnell went on Chris Wallace's show na few months ago and said Biden would bring socialism. Someone (McCarty?) this weekend accused Buttigieg of being a socialist.

You know what will make that socialism label hurt the Dems? By recoiling every time the Republicans trot it out. Getting super defensive about it, because then the Weakling will make the whole election about socialism. The Dems will wilt and constantly stumble over themselves trying to explain it away, no matter who the nominee is. Whoever the nominee is, the entire party has to back them and not shy away from whatever stupid label gets thrown around.
This. They'll decry Bloomberg as a Socialist every bit as much as they will Sanders. And then there'll be that ((())) thing for both of them. That'll be much more subtle.

We are being absolutely bombarded with Bloomberg ads, BTW. He must think my state has some importance now that the primary has been moved up.
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Old 13th January 2020, 09:29 AM   #301
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We've been getting a Bloomberg ad pretty much every commercial break here in Florida for a while now.
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Old 13th January 2020, 09:31 AM   #302
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Originally Posted by Armitage72 View Post
For a fair number of people, they're just buzzwords, with no understanding of what they mean anyway.

"He's a Socialist!!"
"What does Socialism mean?"
"Uh ... bad things."
True we are dealing with two loosely related but distinctly different things.

1. We're using terms formalized in about the 1860s to describe political, social, and economic structures in 2020 which is, at best, imperfect.

2. People are stupid and emotionally attached to words beyond their literal dictionary meaning or practical real world applicable meaning.

Like here in the States if you ask the public in any context how much we should spend on helping the poor and how much we should spend on Welfare you're going to just radically different answers despite those being the same question.
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Old 13th January 2020, 09:32 AM   #303
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Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
Cory Booker has officially ended his campaign for President, about 6 months after everyone who isn't named Cory Booker already forgot the last time they thought about Cory Booker running for President.
By a total coincidence, before I read the news this morning, I answered a survey for People for the American Way, and I chose Cory Booker as my preferred candidate, with Andrew Yang as #2. LOL.
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Old 13th January 2020, 09:38 AM   #304
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Originally Posted by Brainster View Post
I can get the logistics as far as Iowa-DC or Iowa-NH or DC-NH, The DNC could at least create a rule that in-state transit must be done by bus.
Why, to punish them if they want to campaign in Texas or California?

East coast Republicans are so funny.
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Old 13th January 2020, 09:42 AM   #305
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Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
Like here in the States if you ask the public in any context how much we should spend on helping the poor and how much we should spend on Welfare you're going to just radically different answers despite those being the same question.

There was a poll a few years ago, and some people had a negative opinion of ObamaCare and a positive opinion of the Affordable Care Act. One was a federal program to give free health care to lazy, undeserving people. The other was a system of state exchanges that helped people get affordable health insurance. In their minds.
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Old 13th January 2020, 09:43 AM   #306
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
Also, socialism in the 40s wasn't the damaged goods it became later, when the excesses and horrors of Soviet communism became more widely known and acknowledged as such.
You want me to link the attacks against the New Deal? Then, you can tell me "socialism" wasn't a dirty word.
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Old 13th January 2020, 09:57 AM   #307
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Originally Posted by Donal View Post
You want me to link the attacks against the New Deal? Then, you can tell me "socialism" wasn't a dirty word.
To some people, "socialism" was a dirty word from its inception.

It'd be interesting to see if these attacks on the New Deal were attacks on socialism generally, or on the New Deal specifically.

I'm not at all interested in arguments of the form, "the New Deal is what we'd call socialist today, so contemporary attacks on it must be understood as attacks on socialism per se." If that turns out to be your argument, let's save ourselves a lot of time and skip past the three pages of bickering and get straight to the part where we still don't agree.
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Old 13th January 2020, 10:03 AM   #308
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
To some people, "socialism" was a dirty word from its inception.

It'd be interesting to see if these attacks on the New Deal were attacks on socialism generally, or on the New Deal specifically.

I'm not at all interested in arguments of the form, "the New Deal is what we'd call socialist today, so contemporary attacks on it must be understood as attacks on socialism per se." If that turns out to be your argument, let's save ourselves a lot of time and skip past the three pages of bickering and get straight to the part where we still don't agree.
So, you don't want to have to defend was is already the GOP's strategy.

I mean, I could modify it to "policies Richard Nixon and Dwight Eisenhower proposed and over saw would be called socialist today" if that makes it easier for you.
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Old 13th January 2020, 10:45 AM   #309
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Nixon was a socialist plant.
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Old 13th January 2020, 10:48 AM   #310
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Booker books out!

From: https://www.vox.com/2020/1/13/208870...-for-president
Cory Booker spent the majority of his presidential campaign delivering an urgently upbeat message: That love could prevail and help heal a divided nation. Ultimately, that strategy didn’t work; the New Jersey senator announced Monday he’s ending his campaign after consistently low numbers in national and early state polls.

A shame. Given the field of candidates, he probably would have been my first choice (well, if I were American). Experienced, didn't appear to have any huge skeletons in his closet, progressive in some ways, moderate in others.

ETA: Woops... overlooked another posting here that mentioned it.
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Old 13th January 2020, 10:52 AM   #311
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Originally Posted by Segnosaur View Post
A shame. Given the field of candidates, he probably would have been my first choice (well, if I were American). Experienced, didn't appear to have any huge skeletons in his closet,
Except rumors that he was in the closet. NTTAWWT.
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Old 13th January 2020, 10:52 AM   #312
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Originally Posted by Segnosaur View Post
ETA: Woops... overlooked another posting here that mentioned it.
That officially makes this thread the most media coverage he's gotten.
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Old 13th January 2020, 10:55 AM   #313
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Originally Posted by Donal View Post
Again, stop worrying about the "socialism" label. The Republicans have already decided the entire Democratic Party is a bunch of socialists. McConnell went on Chris Wallace's show na few months ago and said Biden would bring socialism. Someone (McCarty?) this weekend accused Buttigieg of being a socialist.

You know what will make that socialism label hurt the Dems? By recoiling every time the Republicans trot it out. Getting super defensive about it, because then the Weakling will make the whole election about socialism. The Dems will wilt and constantly stumble over themselves trying to explain it away, no matter who the nominee is. Whoever the nominee is, the entire party has to back them and not shy away from whatever stupid label gets thrown around.
You are right... whomever the Democrats select will get tarred with the 'socialist' label, regardless of where they are on the political spectrum. However, there have been polls that show Americans would not be willing to vote for a 'socialist'. (Of course, this doesn't mean that Americans are opposed to social democrat policies; it just means that the name/label seems to be an effective deterrent, even if people don't really understand the meaning.)

From: https://thehill.com/hilltv/what-amer...not-vote-for-a
In a new Hill.TV/HarrisX American Barometer poll released Tuesday, an overwhelming majority of respondents, 76 percent, said they would not vote for a “socialist” political candidate...
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Old 13th January 2020, 10:58 AM   #314
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Originally Posted by Venom View Post
You think Klobuchar can energize the Democratic electorate against Trump more than Sanders??
I'm afraid that Sanders will alienate the moderates or conservative Dems. I would also prefer a candidate who will pull along conservative Congressional districts with them.

What good is a wild eyed liberal President with a Republican House and Senate?
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Old 13th January 2020, 11:03 AM   #315
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Booker had a solidly progressive record in criminal justice.

He didn't have the backing and energy to make it.
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Old 13th January 2020, 11:09 AM   #316
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Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger View Post
Biden will fail the minute the GOP starts attacking him. They have an immense amount of ammunition.

Bloomberg or Steyer.

Sanders has a good chance with his following provided the GOP isn't successful with the socialism scare-mongering. But they will try and Sanders is vulnerable.
I don't buy your first line. I'm jot a big fan of Bloomberg or Steyer...I do like Steyer better than Bloomberg. I really wish that Buttigieg wasn't gay. Because if he wasn't, I feel he's the one Democrat who would crush Trump.

If I could select the one I would prefer the most to be POTUS, I'd choose Warren. Second, I'd pick Buttigieg or Klobuchar. But choosing the nominee is a different decision. I want the person who will win. And I definitely think Sanders would get crushed like a bug.
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Old 13th January 2020, 11:28 AM   #317
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Originally Posted by acbytesla View Post
I'm afraid that Sanders will alienate the moderates or conservative Dems. I would also prefer a candidate who will pull along conservative Congressional districts with them.

What good is a wild eyed liberal President with a Republican House and Senate?
I'll trot it out again:

“For every blue-collar Democrat we lose in western Pennsylvania, we will pick up two moderate Republicans in the suburbs in Philadelphia, and you can repeat that in Ohio and Illinois and Wisconsin.” -Chuck Schumer

Don't fall for it Charlie Brown, you know she's going to pull the ball away.
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Old 13th January 2020, 11:37 AM   #318
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Originally Posted by Delphic Oracle View Post
I'll trot it out again:

“For every blue-collar Democrat we lose in western Pennsylvania, we will pick up two moderate Republicans in the suburbs in Philadelphia, and you can repeat that in Ohio and Illinois and Wisconsin.” -Chuck Schumer

Don't fall for it Charlie Brown, you know she's going to pull the ball away.
I don't buy your argument. We just saw what happened in the UK. I saw what happened when the Dems nominated McGovern. I've watched every time the GOP in my state ran an ultra right wing conservative candidate for Governor or Senator. They get crushed.

A super liberal might have a chance if they are the right messenger. But Sanders is not that messenger. He comes off like a decrepit old Doc Brown from Back to the Future.

And I like Bernie a lot.
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Old 13th January 2020, 11:40 AM   #319
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Originally Posted by Donal View Post
Again, stop worrying about the "socialism" label. The Republicans have already decided the entire Democratic Party is a bunch of socialists. McConnell went on Chris Wallace's show na few months ago and said Biden would bring socialism. Someone (McCarty?) this weekend accused Buttigieg of being a socialist.

You know what will make that socialism label hurt the Dems? By recoiling every time the Republicans trot it out. Getting super defensive about it, because then the Weakling will make the whole election about socialism. The Dems will wilt and constantly stumble over themselves trying to explain it away, no matter who the nominee is. Whoever the nominee is, the entire party has to back them and not shy away from whatever stupid label gets thrown around.
The problem with ignoring the socialism label is it triggers a whole slew of voters to run in terror.

My brother who isn't particularly political told me years ago that "Obama is a socialist" and nothing I could say would make him change that view.

And neither Warren nor Sanders have countered the threat the cost of Medicare for all is being cited as. They can be as right as rain but if the messaging fails then no one will know it.

The (right-wing) Hill 2018: Poll: Majority of Americans say they would not vote for a 'socialist'
Quote:
In a new Hill.TV/HarrisX American Barometer poll released Tuesday, an overwhelming majority of respondents, 76 percent, said they would not vote for a “socialist” political candidate, while only 24 percent of those polled said they would vote for a socialist candidate.
From StartPage Search, take your pick:
Quote:
New poll: Capitalism is more popular than socialism - The ...
https://www.washingtonpost.com/opini...han-socialism/
Jun 25, 2019 ... New poll: Capitalism is more popular than socialism. Sen. Bernie Sanders (I-Vt.) speaks at the Poor People's Moral Action Congress ...

Four in 10 Americans prefer socialism to capitalism, poll finds | US ...
https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/...ism-poll-axios
Jun 10, 2019 ... Axios poll says 55% of women aged 18-54 prefer socialism but ... Donald Trump has frequently railed against socialism as he gears up to bid...

Four in 10 Americans Embrace Some Form of Socialism - Gallup News
https://news.gallup.com/poll/257639/...socialism.aspx
May 20, 2019 ... Those results contrast with a 1942 Roper/Fortune survey that found 40% describing socialism as a bad thing, 25% a good thing and 34% not ...

U.S. Support for More Government Inches Up, but Not for Socialism
https://news.gallup.com/poll/268295/...socialism.aspx
Nov 18, 2019 ... While Americans continue to evaluate socialism negatively, they have become ... Gallup conducted an in-depth survey of U.S. attitudes toward ... people's lives and "1" indicates they favor government providing only the most ...

How Republicans, Democrats view socialism and capitalism | Pew ...
https://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tan...sm-capitalism/
Jun 25, 2019 ... Republicans express intensely negative views of “socialism” and very ... capitalism (65%) than socialism (42%), according to a new survey by Pew ... Mirroring the age divide among the public overall, younger people in both ...
The attitude is changing, but not enough. It risks people holding their noses and voting for Trump.
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Old 13th January 2020, 11:44 AM   #320
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Originally Posted by Venom View Post
Booker had a solidly progressive record in criminal justice.

He didn't have the backing and energy to make it.
Booker is a good man.
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