|
Welcome to the International Skeptics Forum, where we discuss skepticism, critical thinking, the paranormal and science in a friendly but lively way. You are currently viewing the forum as a guest, which means you are missing out on discussing matters that are of interest to you. Please consider registering so you can gain full use of the forum features and interact with other Members. Registration is simple, fast and free! Click here to register today. |
![]() |
#41 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Feb 2011
Location: Republic of Ireland
Posts: 21,193
|
Thanks, but I am no authority. Well, perhaps I have at least some authority as we shall see in the next section.
And that is a moral problem for the god botherers. Is there a man or woman among us who would not prevent a child being raped? I would give my life to stop such a thing. Pretty sure Thor would. Pretty sure many members here would. But god would not. He could, but he refuses to do so. He just watches and tells the perpetrator that he will merely watch as it happens and punish the perp at some later time. Perhaps god is a perverted voyeur. It seems so. Were either of my children so assaulted, I could not stand by. But bible god could and apparently does. Thus I have higher morals than bible god. Any bible basher care to explain? It is a jumble. Exactly how did you determine that god got "bored"? Seems more likely that it doesn't exist in the first place. Nope. Yep. Those are called delusions. Simples. The blindingly obvious god is the one that whichever protagonist happens to believe in. Amusingly, on another forum, there are two muslims arguing. That is how religion works. Ha. Thank you captain obvious. Your optimism is admirable. That is a problem for the abrahamic religions. According to the bible, god is of human form, showed his butt to the imaginary moses, cheated at wrestling and so forth. This leaves the believers in a quandary. And they cannot work it out. Why should there be an exception? Because... Of course you do because the bible claims the opposite. What a bitch, I suppose. Blame her, why not? Well, as an atheist, I can do whatever I like. But if I have a deathbed conversion, I go straight to heaven, no questions asked no matter what I might have done in the past. Justice simply does not exist in christianity. |
__________________
Who is General Failure? And why is he reading my hard drive? ...love and buttercakes... |
|
![]() ![]() |
![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() |
![]() |
#42 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Apr 2011
Posts: 17,646
|
And you think he would have foreseen that, wouldn't you? Being omniscient and all. He even missed out at the very beginning when Adam and Eve ate the fruit of knowledge. Why did he even bother to tell them not to when he knew they would? To quote Bugs Bunny - "What a maroon!"
|
![]() ![]() |
![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() |
![]() |
#43 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Apr 2011
Posts: 17,646
|
BTW: if I was a believer I would honor Eve with the highest reward I could! Eating of the fruit of knowledge was the event that made humans who we are and presumably different from other animals. Plus the willingness to defy authority unwilling to provide a rationale for their commands. Secondary credit to the snake of course.
|
![]() ![]() |
![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() |
![]() |
#44 |
Philosopher
Join Date: May 2016
Location: Brisbane, Aust.
Posts: 6,498
|
Well I do agree with you to a large extent Darat, but there are some issues with the origins of of Scientology and Mormonism, that speak loudly about the apparent gullibility of the followers. The founder of Scientology apparently just extending his science fiction mythology, and Joseph Smith coming from a background of story telling and fraud as I understand it. |
__________________
Thinking is a faith hazard. |
|
![]() ![]() |
![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() |
![]() |
#45 |
Philosopher
Join Date: May 2016
Location: Brisbane, Aust.
Posts: 6,498
|
|
__________________
Thinking is a faith hazard. |
|
![]() ![]() |
![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() |
![]() |
#46 |
Skeptical about skeptics
Join Date: Sep 2010
Location: 31°57'S 115°57'E
Posts: 16,845
|
|
__________________
"The process by which banks create money is so simple that the mind is repelled. Where something so important is involved, a deeper mystery seems only decent." - Galbraith, 1975 |
|
![]() ![]() |
![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() |
![]() |
#47 |
Philosopher
Join Date: Jan 2006
Posts: 8,852
|
You really think that's logic!!!???.
The logical question is "Can you exercise free will to choose between good and bad if there is no knowledge of good and bad with which to exercise it"? But who cares about logic when you can judge Atheists instead? That Atheists can't judge what they don't think exists is yet another logical point that seems to elude you. |
__________________
Paranormal/supernatural beliefs are knowledge placebos. Rumours of a god’s existence have been greatly exaggerated. Make beliefs truths and you get make-believe truths. |
|
![]() ![]() |
![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() |
![]() |
#48 |
Skeptical about skeptics
Join Date: Sep 2010
Location: 31°57'S 115°57'E
Posts: 16,845
|
They weren't vegetables. They still had the ability to make a choice. They were given the warning that if they ate the fruit then they would "surely die". They didn't have to know that it was good or evil to reject that warning to exercise a choice.
Yet you judge away anyhow. |
__________________
"The process by which banks create money is so simple that the mind is repelled. Where something so important is involved, a deeper mystery seems only decent." - Galbraith, 1975 |
|
![]() ![]() |
![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() |
![]() |
#49 |
Philosopher
Join Date: Jan 2006
Posts: 8,852
|
And that warning in the fairy story was a lie. It wasn't merely "surely die", it was "in the day that you eat of it you shall surely die".
So a totally uniformed, uneducated, blind, innocent decision for a purely "because I said so" order that deserved eternal punishment for them and all subsequent humans as well! What a silly fairy story. Given A and E were made immortal in the fairy story, would they have even understand what "die" meant? Sure, but we judge the god beliefs and stories, not gods we don't think exists. Bet you have trouble seeing the difference there. |
__________________
Paranormal/supernatural beliefs are knowledge placebos. Rumours of a god’s existence have been greatly exaggerated. Make beliefs truths and you get make-believe truths. |
|
![]() ![]() |
![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() |
![]() |
#50 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Oct 2012
Location: Nelson, New Zealand
Posts: 16,386
|
Become silly?
|
__________________
I want to thank the 126 Republican Congress members for providing a convenient and well organized list for the mid-terms. - Fred Wellman (Senior VA Advisor to The Lincoln Project) ![]() |
|
![]() ![]() |
![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() |
![]() |
#51 |
Skeptical about skeptics
Join Date: Sep 2010
Location: 31°57'S 115°57'E
Posts: 16,845
|
Whatever.
And now you are back to eschewing the logical question in favour of judgement. Not if they were vegetables or babies crapping in their nappies. I have heaps of trouble "seeing the difference there". It sounds like a "I didn't say Simon Says" type defence. |
__________________
"The process by which banks create money is so simple that the mind is repelled. Where something so important is involved, a deeper mystery seems only decent." - Galbraith, 1975 |
|
![]() ![]() |
![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() |
![]() |
#52 |
Philosopher
Join Date: Jan 2006
Posts: 8,852
|
As you say "whatever"
Instead of attempting to reverse engineer your silly fantasy god out of an arbitrarily selected collection of two thousand plus year old mythical, superstitious writings, why don't you provide some credible direct evidence that your fantasy god actually exists, or perhaps even some good reason how it could or might exist? |
__________________
Paranormal/supernatural beliefs are knowledge placebos. Rumours of a god’s existence have been greatly exaggerated. Make beliefs truths and you get make-believe truths. |
|
![]() ![]() |
![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() |
![]() |
#53 |
Skeptical about skeptics
Join Date: Sep 2010
Location: 31°57'S 115°57'E
Posts: 16,845
|
Because I am not "attempting to reverse engineer your silly fantasy god out of an arbitrarily selected collection of two thousand plus year old mythical, superstitious writings" nor am I concerning myself whether such a god exists nor (if he does) whether he actually set up a scenario as described in Genesis 2.
This was simply a question of logic. ![]() |
__________________
"The process by which banks create money is so simple that the mind is repelled. Where something so important is involved, a deeper mystery seems only decent." - Galbraith, 1975 |
|
![]() ![]() |
![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() |
![]() |
#54 |
Philosopher
Join Date: May 2005
Location: Sydney Nova Scotia
Posts: 7,974
|
|
__________________
Caption from and old New Yorker cartoon - Why am I shouting? Because I'm wrong!" |
|
![]() ![]() |
![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() |
![]() |
#55 |
Graduate Poster
Join Date: Feb 2004
Posts: 1,992
|
It isn’t as though the story bothers to make clear exactly how much agency they are working with before the fall. It isn’t that sort of story. It wouldn’t be such a problem if there weren’t so many people who refuse to think of the story as a sloppy parable/metaphor that’s been unnecessarily glorified. Pity about the whole thing where they decided to pin the concept of original sin on it like it really happened.
|
![]() ![]() |
![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() |
![]() |
#56 |
Schrödinger's cat
Join Date: May 2004
Location: Malmesbury, UK
Posts: 12,818
|
|
__________________
"If you trust in yourself ... and believe in your dreams ... and follow your star ... you'll still get beaten by people who spent their time working hard and learning things" - Terry Pratchett |
|
![]() ![]() |
![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() |
![]() |
#57 |
Featherless biped
Join Date: Aug 2008
Location: Aporia
Posts: 24,108
|
Looks like a big claim. Is this based on psychological surveys? Personal experience? Or deduction from the idea that all god beliefs are security blankets and requiring such a security blanket is having major issues?
I am not convinced that even most atheists are without “issues” that arise from their mortality. |
![]() ![]() |
![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() |
![]() |
#58 |
Skeptical about skeptics
Join Date: Sep 2010
Location: 31°57'S 115°57'E
Posts: 16,845
|
Not the point.
This is supposed to be an exercise in logic. Conditional logic doesn't require the premise to be true. It is about whether the conclusion necessarily follows IF we assume that the premise is true. Unfortunately, from some of the responses I have gotten, it seems that if I don't shout my "lack of belief" from the roof tops then I am guilty of heresy. ![]() |
__________________
"The process by which banks create money is so simple that the mind is repelled. Where something so important is involved, a deeper mystery seems only decent." - Galbraith, 1975 |
|
![]() ![]() |
![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() |
![]() |
#59 |
Graduate Poster
Join Date: Jun 2012
Location: Jacksonville, FL
Posts: 1,543
|
All of this talk of logic has reminded me of Norm MacDonald's awesome "Professor of Logic" joke.
|
__________________
Ben is sick ladies and gentlemen, thats right, Ben is sick. |
|
![]() ![]() |
![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() |
![]() |
#60 |
Lackey
Administrator
Join Date: Aug 2001
Location: South East, UK
Posts: 95,985
|
You only have to have a passing familiarity with Christian theology to know that they have a huge unresolved problem with reconciling the descent of man/original sin with their other claims, they've been trying to solve the problem for over 2000 years (add in the Jewish roots of their beliefs and it is probably more like 3000 years), with some of the best minds humanity has ever produced tackling the problem and there is no simple "logical" answer.
|
__________________
I wish I knew how to quit you |
|
![]() ![]() |
![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() |
![]() |
#61 |
Lackey
Administrator
Join Date: Aug 2001
Location: South East, UK
Posts: 95,985
|
|
__________________
I wish I knew how to quit you |
|
![]() ![]() |
![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() |
![]() |
#62 |
Skeptical about skeptics
Join Date: Sep 2010
Location: 31°57'S 115°57'E
Posts: 16,845
|
|
__________________
"The process by which banks create money is so simple that the mind is repelled. Where something so important is involved, a deeper mystery seems only decent." - Galbraith, 1975 |
|
![]() ![]() |
![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() |
![]() |
#64 |
Graduate Poster
Join Date: Jun 2012
Location: Jacksonville, FL
Posts: 1,543
|
|
__________________
Ben is sick ladies and gentlemen, thats right, Ben is sick. |
|
![]() ![]() |
![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() |
![]() |
#65 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Jul 2006
Posts: 20,095
|
|
__________________
"Reality is what's left when you cease to believe." Philip K. Dick |
|
![]() ![]() |
![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() |
![]() |
#66 |
Lackey
Administrator
Join Date: Aug 2001
Location: South East, UK
Posts: 95,985
|
That is not extending the issue, it is a central issue for that faith one that despite your opinon that it is answered with simple logic has not been answered by that faith or others who have considered the implications of that central christian belief. My comment was initially made as a counterpoint to demonstrate how one rather well known and extensive religion cannot square its own contradictory doctrine. I think it is rather a good example of how silly a religion can be. |
__________________
I wish I knew how to quit you |
|
![]() ![]() |
![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() |
![]() |
#67 |
Philosopher
Join Date: May 2016
Location: Brisbane, Aust.
Posts: 6,498
|
What an extraordinary claim.
![]() ![]() The problem becomes magnified when you have acknowledgement of the truth of evolution by the religious (albeit with reluctance), and try to lever in the original sin idea non the less. We must have original sin because the whole idea of Jesus dying on the cross to cleanse us (an extraordinarily silly idea on its own), falls over without it. If you google Catholic Answers and ask questions about this you get the most extraordinary babble and evasiveness. |
__________________
Thinking is a faith hazard. |
|
![]() ![]() |
![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() |
![]() |
#68 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Oct 2012
Location: Nelson, New Zealand
Posts: 16,386
|
|
__________________
I want to thank the 126 Republican Congress members for providing a convenient and well organized list for the mid-terms. - Fred Wellman (Senior VA Advisor to The Lincoln Project) ![]() |
|
![]() ![]() |
![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() |
![]() |
#69 |
Skeptical about skeptics
Join Date: Sep 2010
Location: 31°57'S 115°57'E
Posts: 16,845
|
|
__________________
"The process by which banks create money is so simple that the mind is repelled. Where something so important is involved, a deeper mystery seems only decent." - Galbraith, 1975 |
|
![]() ![]() |
![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() |
![]() |
#70 |
Skeptical about skeptics
Join Date: Sep 2010
Location: 31°57'S 115°57'E
Posts: 16,845
|
|
__________________
"The process by which banks create money is so simple that the mind is repelled. Where something so important is involved, a deeper mystery seems only decent." - Galbraith, 1975 |
|
![]() ![]() |
![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() |
![]() |
#71 |
Graduate Poster
Join Date: Feb 2004
Posts: 1,992
|
There was a discussion a while back where I suggested that the ability to make completely uninformed choices is a meaningless version of free will. IE if someone is given the blind choice of opening one of several doors to leave a room by, it would be shockingly unfair to blame or credit them for whatever one they picked.
|
![]() ![]() |
![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() |
![]() |
#72 |
Illuminator
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: Milky Way, Sol, Earth, Northern Hemisphere, USA, AZ, Scottsdale
Posts: 4,287
|
In point of fact Satan did not lie to them.
Satan said that if they ate of the fruit they would become like god knowing good and bad. They ate of the fruit and gained the knowledge promised. Some short time later they learned to be cautious consuming certain hallucinogenic mushrooms. ![]() |
__________________
- "Who is the greater fool? The fool? Or the one arguing with the fool?" [Various; Uknown] - "The only way to win is not to play." [Tsig quoting 'War Games'] |
|
![]() ![]() |
![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() |
![]() |
#73 |
Self Employed
Remittance Man Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: Florida
Posts: 29,721
|
Satan wasn't even there. The serpent in the Garden of Eden is never identified as Satan in the Bible. It wasn't until theological fan-fiction became all the rage in the late Middle Ages, early Modern Era that a bunch of random, disparate characters in the Bible all got lumped together to create a Moriarty for God's Holmes.
Satan, the Devil, Lucifer (who isn't even a character but a vague allegorical bit of symbolism), and the being that's going to go all medieval on our asses in Revelation along with various words in ancient languages that roughly translate to "advisory," the serpent in the Garden of Eden... these all either don't exist or are obviously different people in the Bible. There's far more Dante, Milton, Faust, and Blake dressed up in a lot of co-opted Pagan imagery in the modern idea of Satan then anything in the Bible. Only the being that conspires with God to screw with Job and the being that tempts Jesus in the desert really present as a coherent character, and then he doesn't really come across as God's all powerful arch-nemesis but a snarky underling God has put in charge of internal affairs and quality control. Everything else reads like what it was, taking a bunch of one off villains and retconning them into an over-arching Big Bad. |
__________________
Yahtzee: "You're doing that thing again where when asked a question you just discuss the philosophy of the question instead of answering the bloody question." Gabriel: "Well yeah, you see..." Yahtzee: "No. When you are asked a Yes or No question the first word out of your mouth needs to be Yes or No. Only after that have you earned the right to elaborate." |
|
![]() ![]() |
![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() |
![]() |
#74 |
Critical Thinker
Join Date: Oct 2014
Posts: 359
|
The serpent, Devil, dragon and Satan were all lumped together in the book of Revelation:
Quote:
|
![]() ![]() |
![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() |
![]() |
#75 |
Lackey
Administrator
Join Date: Aug 2001
Location: South East, UK
Posts: 95,985
|
The subject is the silliness of religion, one example of that is the issue 3 major religions have with the “problem of evil”. You seemed to think that was solved by quick and simple logic, indeed if that was the case and the 3 major religions had missed your simple solution for hundreds of years it would be a very good example of religions’ silliness. |
__________________
I wish I knew how to quit you |
|
![]() ![]() |
![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() |
![]() |
#76 |
Lackey
Administrator
Join Date: Aug 2001
Location: South East, UK
Posts: 95,985
|
The devil as we “know” today was indeed a creation of the Christian church in the “dark ages” and is not biblical in origins. It was created because the church couldn’t provide an answer to why if their god was all powerful, all knowing and even sacrificed himself for everyone’s sins there was still evil in the world. Now obviously with a bit of further thought you soon realise it doesn’t provide an actual answer to the problem of evil, but it worked as a handy bit of sticky plaster. |
__________________
I wish I knew how to quit you |
|
![]() ![]() |
![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() |
![]() |
#77 |
Self Employed
Remittance Man Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: Florida
Posts: 29,721
|
Yeah the whole idea that God somehow has a vastly less powerful less powerful arch nemesis is rather absurd.
Satan as a concept is just trying to solve the Problem of Evil by putting a face on it which doesn't make any kind of sense. Either God cannot stop Satan or doesn't, same that as evil. |
__________________
Yahtzee: "You're doing that thing again where when asked a question you just discuss the philosophy of the question instead of answering the bloody question." Gabriel: "Well yeah, you see..." Yahtzee: "No. When you are asked a Yes or No question the first word out of your mouth needs to be Yes or No. Only after that have you earned the right to elaborate." |
|
![]() ![]() |
![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() |
![]() |
#78 |
Illuminator
Join Date: Feb 2017
Posts: 3,350
|
This, in many respects they are more silly on account of claiming an all powerful god. It is profoundly silly to look at the world and say, "God is can do anything and loves us deeply but stuck us in this ****, oh and if you don't believe for the at most 100ish years you live on earth, well then you're going to suffer for eternity."
This, its essentially the consequentialist argument for religion, sure it may be all wrong but believing will offer you and your society advantages now. There are versions of this in the old testament. Its pretty clear that prior to the the babylonian exile, the god of the old testament was a very finite god who presided over a few tribes in a small coastal area of the levant, where he was really just one of many such gods. Its only later that he became the one and only all powerful being.
Quote:
|
![]() ![]() |
![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() |
![]() |
#79 |
Skeptical about skeptics
Join Date: Sep 2010
Location: 31°57'S 115°57'E
Posts: 16,845
|
|
__________________
"The process by which banks create money is so simple that the mind is repelled. Where something so important is involved, a deeper mystery seems only decent." - Galbraith, 1975 |
|
![]() ![]() |
![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() |
![]() |
#80 |
Bandaged ice that stampedes inexpensively through a scribbled morning waving necessary ankles
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: Cair Paravel, according to XKCD
Posts: 32,180
|
What is? The thread? It seems to me that the question in the OP relates not to the question of whether religion is logically consistent, which your discussion of the problem of evil relates to, but to that of whether the actual content of religion is something a reasonable person would accept.
Dave |
__________________
Inspiring discussion of Sharknado is not a good sign for the audience expectations of your new high-concept SF movie sequel. - Myriad |
|
![]() ![]() |
![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() |
![]() |
Bookmarks |
Thread Tools | |
|
|