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#81 |
Satan's Helper
Join Date: Oct 2007
Posts: 43,991
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Yeah, I think that by the time Scientology came in, this was getting just too silly.
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"I am a collection of water, calcium and organic molecules called Carl Sagan" Carl Sagan |
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#82 |
Self Employed
Remittance Man Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: Florida
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The "Oh now it's silly" problem is also my issue with end of days prophecies.
- "God will destroy the world, saving only certain chosen people, in some fashion at some point in the future" is a mainstream opinion here in America at least. - Close to 50% of Americans think that this event will happen in their lifetime. - But "The world is going to end next Tuesday" is crazy. If you think the world is going to end "sometime soon" you don't really have much a right to point and laugh at a guy saying the exact same thing with just more precision. |
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Yahtzee: "You're doing that thing again where when asked a question you just discuss the philosophy of the question instead of answering the bloody question." Gabriel: "Well yeah, you see..." Yahtzee: "No. When you are asked a Yes or No question the first word out of your mouth needs to be Yes or No. Only after that have you earned the right to elaborate." |
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#83 |
Illuminator
Join Date: Feb 2017
Posts: 3,350
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#84 |
Self Employed
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I'm actually going to retract that exact number for the moment, I think I might have been reading one skewed poll taking right before 2012. So while no intentional dishonesty was intended I might have failed to do full diligence.
The number seems to be closer to about 20%, but I'm gonna do some more research and take that particular point off the table for now, although I still say there's some truth in my general argument that compared to general opinions specific end time prophecies are not that "out there" and I might present a revised argument soon. ETA: For full transparency and intellectual honesty my original point was in reference to a Washington Post poll that stated 41% of Americans agreed or strongly agreed with the statement "the world is currently living in the ‘end times’ as described by prophesies in the Bible." https://www.washingtontimes.com/news...ing-end-times/ But as said I am having trouble getting greater context or corroborating that so I'm shelving that for now. A more robust Reuters poll put it at 1 in 7. https://www.reuters.com/article/us-m...8400XH20120501 But again seems influenced by the "Mayan Calender / 2012" nonsense so I'm taking it with a grain of salt for now. |
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Yahtzee: "You're doing that thing again where when asked a question you just discuss the philosophy of the question instead of answering the bloody question." Gabriel: "Well yeah, you see..." Yahtzee: "No. When you are asked a Yes or No question the first word out of your mouth needs to be Yes or No. Only after that have you earned the right to elaborate." |
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#85 |
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Location: Florida
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But regardless of which numbers we finally find to be most accurate I agree that whatever the number is the number of people who act as if they believe that will be significantly smaller.
As David Wong put it.
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Yahtzee: "You're doing that thing again where when asked a question you just discuss the philosophy of the question instead of answering the bloody question." Gabriel: "Well yeah, you see..." Yahtzee: "No. When you are asked a Yes or No question the first word out of your mouth needs to be Yes or No. Only after that have you earned the right to elaborate." |
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#86 |
Illuminator
Join Date: Feb 2017
Posts: 3,350
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Thanks for the clarification, I wasn't trying to call you out, I just thought the number seemed high based on my vague memories of polling.
Even 20% is also alarmingly high of course, but fortunately, most don't really act out on the belief. |
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#87 |
Lackey
Administrator
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#88 |
Graduate Poster
Join Date: Aug 2003
Location: ZZ9 Plural Z Alpha
Posts: 1,267
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The logical problem of evil only exists if you believe that
a) God exists b) God is absolutely Good. A lot of people seem to believe that (b) follows from (a) but it doesn't. There's no reason why the entity that created this universe (if it exists) has to be good. In fact the evidence strongly suggests that - if it exists - it is not absolutely good, or, having set the Universe in motion, has no power over it. |
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#89 |
Self Employed
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If you can "logic" yourself into that you can just as easily "logic" yourself into the fact that there is no God.
The "Watchmaker" is just something the philosophers made up, he's not a God that a meaningful significant percentage of people actually believe in. As always I'm going to put a lot of effort into making sure this discussion stays on the level of "Gods that people actually believe in on a practical, day to day level" not philosophical thought experiments and "Gods designed for special pleading argumentative outs in internet arguments." |
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Yahtzee: "You're doing that thing again where when asked a question you just discuss the philosophy of the question instead of answering the bloody question." Gabriel: "Well yeah, you see..." Yahtzee: "No. When you are asked a Yes or No question the first word out of your mouth needs to be Yes or No. Only after that have you earned the right to elaborate." |
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#90 |
Philosopher
Join Date: May 2016
Location: Brisbane, Aust.
Posts: 6,498
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Yes well that's about right I think. Logically consistent is one thing but just plain silly is another. After observing his scribblings on many other threads I get the impression psion just likes to be contrary, resulting in an explosion of opposition from others. Wouldn't take too much notice if I were you. ![]() |
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#91 |
Philosopher
Join Date: May 2016
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Many Christians will dispute that because of vague scripture identifying the Devil. Made his* first appearance as that conniving snake in the apple story, which is sort of supported in the book of Ezekiel where the King Of Tyre (personification of the Devil we are told), is reported as once being in the Garden of Eden.
Fairly common among Christians is the belief that Lucifer, referred to in Isaiah, is one and the same as the Devil. Once was a beautiful angel we are told, who defied God and fell from grace - sound familiar? I was told by a Christian once that if I were to see the Devil I would be dazzled by his beauty. The Devil has a number of appearances in The New Testament as well. Possibly the most notable when he tempted Jesus in the wilderness to “fall down and worship him” in exchange for riches and glory. This I think deserves a special mention in the silliness list. Jesus, being God in the flesh and knowing he was, should have just scoffed at this and told the Devil to **** off. * Has to be male of course although that impeccable source of Biblical knowledge "Mr Deity" has Lucifer "Lucy" as a woman. |
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#92 |
Skeptical about skeptics
Join Date: Sep 2010
Location: 31°57'S 115°57'E
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"The process by which banks create money is so simple that the mind is repelled. Where something so important is involved, a deeper mystery seems only decent." - Galbraith, 1975 |
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#93 |
Philosopher
Join Date: May 2016
Location: Brisbane, Aust.
Posts: 6,498
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Steering back on course from psion's squabble with others about logic, I thought I would mention what inspired me to start this thread: In short the stream of silly utterances from the religious in recent times.
Israel Folau told us that homosexuals, and others would go to Hell! Apart from the conviction regarding the existence of Hell, (something many of todays Christians seem to realise the absurdity of and shy away from endorsing), Folau's ignorance is astounding. Does he not know that being homosexual is not the result some kind of evil choice people make? We have the televangelist Graham telling us that opposing Trump is the work of the Devil! As with Hell the Devil is being fazed out by many of today's faithful who see this as one step too far down the silly road. Holding man responsible for his own actions but then entering the Devil into the equation, just makes less and less sense. Can anyone else add to the list of silly utterances of late? |
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#94 |
Skeptical about skeptics
Join Date: Sep 2010
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People have been making silly utterances for as long as religion has been around. Every religious person seems to have a pet theory of what the "true" God is all about and most of these theories conflict. It is only to be expected that statements made by some will be silly to others.
The only difference here is that you have zeroed in on utterances made by people who are currently in the public eye. Margaret Court (unlike Israel Folau) actually came out and spelled out that homosexuality is a "choice". BTW The OP was about the apparently illogical concept of a good God that permits evil (not silly utterances). That was why I linked to the Logical Problem of Evil. It doesn't explain everything but it gives a possible perspective on why evil exists. |
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"The process by which banks create money is so simple that the mind is repelled. Where something so important is involved, a deeper mystery seems only decent." - Galbraith, 1975 |
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#95 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Feb 2004
Posts: 13,231
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Religion becomes just silly when you stop needing it, obviously! When do you stop needing to proclaim that religion is just (!) silly?! There is nothing more childish than the perpetual attempts to portray religion as a kind of exercise in logical thinking gone horribly wrong. That's not at all what religion actually is, that's not why people believe. |
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/dann "Stupidity renders itself invisible by assuming very large proportions. Completely unreasonable claims are irrefutable. Ni-en-leh pointed out that a philosopher might get into trouble by claiming that two times two makes five, but he does not risk much by claiming that two times two makes shoe polish." B. Brecht "The abolition of religion as the illusory happiness of the people is required for their real happiness. The demand to give up the illusion about its condition is the demand to give up a condition which needs illusions." K. Marx |
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#96 |
Philosopher
Join Date: May 2016
Location: Brisbane, Aust.
Posts: 6,498
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Well I wasn't implying that the silliness of religion was a new thing* - or the silly utterances either. Of course it has been going on for a long time. I am just trying to draw a line (which may be fuzzy) between reasonable religious belief and the silly stuff.
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* Mind you the advance of human knowledge has made the silliness a bit more obvious in modern times. Scripture about stars falling to Earth may have not seemed too stupid even a few hundred years ago. |
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#97 |
Philosopher
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#98 |
Observer of Phenomena
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#99 |
Skeptical about skeptics
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"The process by which banks create money is so simple that the mind is repelled. Where something so important is involved, a deeper mystery seems only decent." - Galbraith, 1975 |
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#100 |
Philosopher
Join Date: Jan 2006
Posts: 8,852
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Sorry to chew on this buddy but I still don’t know why you think some religious beliefs are more reasonable than others and all are not equally unreasonable/silly. Any belief that claims an invisible, magical, supernatural, sky-daddy actually exists isn’t reasonable and is silly. Such beliefs don’t become any more or less unreasonable/silly with any amount of other unreasonable/silly beliefs added.
It’s not just the advance of human knowledge in modern times, it’s also (if not more) the increase of actively vocal atheists with personal prior religious experiences and sound arguments exposing the silliness and dangers of religions to large and growing internet audiences. Religions haven’t had such an effective and damaging attack from intellectually honest former believers with logically sound arguments before. I think what has become sillier are the desperate arguments scrapped from the bottom of the credibility barrel by punch drunk believers that have had their emotional beliefs so effectively beaten up and torn apart before. (but I would think that of course ![]() |
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Paranormal/supernatural beliefs are knowledge placebos. Rumours of a god’s existence have been greatly exaggerated. Make beliefs truths and you get make-believe truths. |
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#101 |
Observer of Phenomena
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#102 |
Philosopher
Join Date: Jan 2006
Posts: 8,852
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Why don't you simply predict my reply?
Perhaps that may be too hard for you . . . so . . . That it’s good to be kind, charitable and helpful towards others is not a religious belief. It’s a belief common to all good humans including the non-religious (a humane belief). All beliefs of religious people aren’t religious beliefs. Religious beliefs are exclusively beliefs that invisible, magical, supernatural, sky-daddies/mummies actually exist (aka - silly beliefs). Does that win your prize for the second most predictable response in a thread ![]() |
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Paranormal/supernatural beliefs are knowledge placebos. Rumours of a god’s existence have been greatly exaggerated. Make beliefs truths and you get make-believe truths. |
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#103 |
Lackey
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#104 |
Self Employed
Remittance Man Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: Florida
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You can't just cherry pick one truism, apply it to religion with no reason, and drop that into the discussion as a gotcha.
You can have a good idea within a bad intellectual or moral framework. You can be religious and kind/charitable/helpful. Religion doesn't make you kind/charitable/helpful. |
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Yahtzee: "You're doing that thing again where when asked a question you just discuss the philosophy of the question instead of answering the bloody question." Gabriel: "Well yeah, you see..." Yahtzee: "No. When you are asked a Yes or No question the first word out of your mouth needs to be Yes or No. Only after that have you earned the right to elaborate." |
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#105 |
Philosopher
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#106 |
Philosopher
Join Date: May 2016
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Of course it is not. Accept of course to those lacking an ethical nature, who need a religious direction to tell them stuff like it being a bad thing to kill, rape, and rob. Does arthwollipot know of such people among those religious friends he tells us about? |
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#107 |
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Nobody ever admit that they would be out raping and murdering without believing in God, no not them.
But... the other. Oh yes they would. |
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Yahtzee: "You're doing that thing again where when asked a question you just discuss the philosophy of the question instead of answering the bloody question." Gabriel: "Well yeah, you see..." Yahtzee: "No. When you are asked a Yes or No question the first word out of your mouth needs to be Yes or No. Only after that have you earned the right to elaborate." |
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#108 |
Philosopher
Join Date: May 2016
Location: Brisbane, Aust.
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No worries, I know we all do not have an identical take on this stuff. Given the origin of all is a mystery* I am prepared to accept the possibility that we may be the product of some kind of celestial intelligence - some kind if experiment in a test tube perhaps. I see this as a possibility although highly improbable. Any "religion" that has this premiss, I cannot discard as just silly in consequence. When the faith starts talking about a god or gods, making our World without any appreciation of the size of the total universe, and giving such special attention to this speck we call home. When we have talk of being made in the image of the god or gods who really cares for us, then the silliness is overwhelming * I know the how is being tackled very well by some fine minds but the why (if there is one) is more elusive. |
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#109 |
Philosopher
Join Date: Jan 2006
Posts: 8,852
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Not sure exactly what you mean by "origin of all". Whenever I'm asked "Where did everything come from?" I always answer "The past". I don't see why the past has to have an origin or beginning.
That something hasn't been proven to be impossible doesn't mean it's possible. "It's possible" shouldn't be concluded or assumed from "I don't know". "The faith" started talking about all that silly nonsense thousands of years ago. |
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#110 |
Philosopher
Join Date: Jun 2008
Posts: 5,268
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And the problem is?
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The OP posits that religion only 'becomes silly' when 'The notion of a caring god, who takes great interest in our activities' is accepted. I say that if you accept the notion of a god at all, then the rest is no sillier. In fact, assuming this god has any of the attributes normally associated with gods, taking an interest in our affairs is fully expected.
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Understanding Americans' Support for the Death Penalty
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Some time in the future, someone will look back and accuse you of supporting the most idiotic, immoral and disgusting practices. And have no appreciation of what it's like to live in today's society.
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#111 |
Observer of Phenomena
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It sure does. See below.
The fact that religious dogma and religious edicts say it. When a religion instructs people that charity is a pious act, rather than just an ethical one, which both Catholicism and Islam do, by the way, among others, then it becomes a religious belief. Wow that's a lot of commas for a single sentence. |
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#112 |
Philosopher
Join Date: May 2016
Location: Brisbane, Aust.
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Yes I am comfortable with this also but also see it as not silly to try and find some kind of answer about a possible beginning. Unnecessary maybe but silly no. Silliness is what I am on about.
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#113 |
Philosopher
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Posts: 8,852
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Paranormal/supernatural beliefs are knowledge placebos. Rumours of a god’s existence have been greatly exaggerated. Make beliefs truths and you get make-believe truths. |
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#114 |
Philosopher
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#115 |
Philosopher
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Posts: 8,852
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Paranormal/supernatural beliefs are knowledge placebos. Rumours of a god’s existence have been greatly exaggerated. Make beliefs truths and you get make-believe truths. |
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#116 |
Philosopher
Join Date: Jan 2006
Posts: 8,852
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A religious act (pious or not) isn't a religious belief.
"Religious belief is the belief in the reality of the mythological, supernatural, or spiritual aspects of a religion. Religious belief is distinct from religious practice or religious behaviours with some believers not practicing religion and some practitioners not believing religion. Religious beliefs, being derived from ideas that are exclusive to religion, often relate to the existence, characteristics and worship of a deity or deities, divine intervention in the universe and human life, or the deontological explanations for the values and practices centered on the teachings of a spiritual leader or group. In contrast to other belief systems, religious beliefs are usually codified." - https://www.definitions.net/definition/religious+belief |
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Paranormal/supernatural beliefs are knowledge placebos. Rumours of a god’s existence have been greatly exaggerated. Make beliefs truths and you get make-believe truths. |
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#117 |
Observer of Phenomena
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#118 |
Philosopher
Join Date: Jun 2008
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What would be silly is spending billions on trying to find an answer about a possible 'beginning', instead of dealing with issues in the here and now.
And religion, while undeniably silly, can also be a force for good.
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#119 |
Philosopher
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You seem to be off with the fairies yet again. Just because the topic is about the silliness of religion, doesn't mean you can shoot off in all kinds of silly directions with the subject matter. The effectiveness of religion as a "force for good", has been argued in other threads. |
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#120 |
Philosopher
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To concede that something may be possible is essentially the same as saying you don't know if it is impossible.
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