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#121 |
Philosopher
Join Date: Jan 2006
Posts: 8,852
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ftfy
“May be” isn’t equivalent to “Don’t know”. If you don’t know then you don’t know that it may be. “May be possible” is equivalent to “May be impossible”. “Don’t know if possible’ is equivalent to “Don’t know if impossible” The reason I’m “serious about it” is because truth is important to me and I respect and value your intellectual honesty and critical thinking (you’re worth the effort). You may be in holiday mode and rather have a beer ![]() Unless you or anyone wants to continue I will leave it at this . . .
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Paranormal/supernatural beliefs are knowledge placebos. Rumours of a god’s existence have been greatly exaggerated. Make beliefs truths and you get make-believe truths. |
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#122 |
Graduate Poster
Join Date: Jun 2012
Location: Jacksonville, FL
Posts: 1,543
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Speak for yourself, I counted 393 Zeuses in my jar of peanut butter.
It's odd. |
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Ben is sick ladies and gentlemen, thats right, Ben is sick. |
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#123 |
Observer of Phenomena
Pronouns: he/him Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: Ngunnawal Country
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What? No it isn't.
If the initial assumption is that it is possible, then you say "well, it may be impossible." If the initial assumption is that it is impossible, then you say "well, it may be possible." The emphasis is completely different. They're not equivalent statements, and are used in different contexts. Thor2 was speaking under the initial assumption that it is impossible, though you don't know that for certain. Therefore he said that it may be possible. |
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#124 |
Philosopher
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Posts: 8,852
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Paranormal/supernatural beliefs are knowledge placebos. Rumours of a god’s existence have been greatly exaggerated. Make beliefs truths and you get make-believe truths. |
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#125 |
Graduate Poster
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Ben is sick ladies and gentlemen, thats right, Ben is sick. |
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#126 |
Philosopher
Join Date: Jan 2006
Posts: 8,852
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Paranormal/supernatural beliefs are knowledge placebos. Rumours of a god’s existence have been greatly exaggerated. Make beliefs truths and you get make-believe truths. |
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#127 |
Philosopher
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Posts: 8,852
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Paranormal/supernatural beliefs are knowledge placebos. Rumours of a god’s existence have been greatly exaggerated. Make beliefs truths and you get make-believe truths. |
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#128 |
Observer of Phenomena
Pronouns: he/him Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: Ngunnawal Country
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You can't avoid starting with an assumption. That's what Bayesian probability is all about.
Take the following premise: "Green cats exist". But you don't know for sure whether they do or not. Are you going to say "Green cats might exist" or "Green cats might not exist. The former implies that they probably don't. The latter implies that they probably do. We're dealing with possibilities, not certainties, which throws a big wrench into formal logic. |
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#129 |
Philosopher
Join Date: Jan 2006
Posts: 8,852
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Oh, here we go . . .
I'm simply and intellectually honestly going to say "I don't know if green cats exist naturally, but I do know green cats could exist by dying white cats green". I'm dealing with what IS true, and more specifically whether you can know it's true without sufficient evidence, not what might possibly be true. |
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Paranormal/supernatural beliefs are knowledge placebos. Rumours of a god’s existence have been greatly exaggerated. Make beliefs truths and you get make-believe truths. |
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#130 |
Observer of Phenomena
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That's a different, and equally valid, answer. It takes a fair bit of intellectual courage to just say "I don't know" to something. Most people would tend to come down on one side or another.
This is also what I am saying. If you know that green cats exist without sufficient evidence, then rather than saying "green cats exist" you say "green cats probably exist, but I do not have sufficient evidence to be certain." But we're getting rather off-track here, which was totally unexpected and not at all what always happens. ![]() |
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#131 |
Penultimate Amazing
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#132 |
Philosopher
Join Date: Jan 2006
Posts: 8,852
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I would rather say it takes courage to be intellectually honest. You should try saying "I don't know" sometimes, it's really not scary at all.
And "most" would be silly and wrong to do so. Theists are an obvious example of such people. It's the ONLY valid answer I know of. Green cats either do or don't exist (there's no third option). If they don't exist then it's not valid or correct to say they probably might exist. If they do exist then it's not valid or correct to say they probably might not exist. |
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Paranormal/supernatural beliefs are knowledge placebos. Rumours of a god’s existence have been greatly exaggerated. Make beliefs truths and you get make-believe truths. |
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#133 |
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Paranormal/supernatural beliefs are knowledge placebos. Rumours of a god’s existence have been greatly exaggerated. Make beliefs truths and you get make-believe truths. |
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#134 |
Skeptical about skeptics
Join Date: Sep 2010
Location: 31°57'S 115°57'E
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LOL another professor of logic appears.
If you don't know if a statement is true or false then it is possible that the statement is true and it is possible that the statement is false. I don't understand why anybody would call the use of "possible" intellectually dishonest. Congratulations. You are the first person to have proven an negative. |
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"The process by which banks create money is so simple that the mind is repelled. Where something so important is involved, a deeper mystery seems only decent." - Galbraith, 1975 |
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#135 |
Observer of Phenomena
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I say it all the time.
Most people don't communicate in formal logic. There are dozens of valid answers, from simple rephrasings of the basic statement to elaborations, complications, and answers that include unnecessary digressions. This is how humans communicate. That's correct. Those options would be logically inconsistent (and what does "probably might exist" even mean anyway?). But if you're not certain if they exist, then it may be valid or correct to say that they probably don't exist. |
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#136 |
Philosopher
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I was wondering if the "professor of LOL” would turn up. Well that’s all a fine strawman.
We are debating the validity/correctness of answers to questions, not statements. Are gods real? Are we the product of some kind of celestial intelligence - some kind if experiment in a test tube perhaps? Are cats green? etc. These questions are about what IS true or false, not what might be. I don’t call the use of "possible" intellectually dishonest or invalid in answer to all questions as Mr Strawman suggests. In answer to “Will it rain tomorrow?” there’s nothing intellectually dishonest or invalid in answering “It possibly will (or won’t)”, as the fact of it raining tomorrow or not hasn’t as yet been established as a fact. More intellectually honest and valid of course to simply say “I don’t know”. Totally different question from “Did it rain yesterday?”. If it did rain yesterday then the fact has been established. If it did rain yesterday then there’s absolutely no possibility that it didn’t. Things are either true or false regardless of whether we know they are. It was true that dinosaurs once lived long before we gained knowledge it was/is true. Knowledge is the reward of discovering truth, not the creator of it. |
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Paranormal/supernatural beliefs are knowledge placebos. Rumours of a god’s existence have been greatly exaggerated. Make beliefs truths and you get make-believe truths. |
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#137 |
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Paranormal/supernatural beliefs are knowledge placebos. Rumours of a god’s existence have been greatly exaggerated. Make beliefs truths and you get make-believe truths. |
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#138 |
Observer of Phenomena
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#139 |
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Paranormal/supernatural beliefs are knowledge placebos. Rumours of a god’s existence have been greatly exaggerated. Make beliefs truths and you get make-believe truths. |
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#140 |
Observer of Phenomena
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#141 |
Philosopher
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Posts: 8,852
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In what way can what you merely think be valid and correct when a person that thinks the opposite can also be equally valid and correct?
You didn't respond to this previous "problem" . . . How CAN you know that green cats exist without sufficient evidence that they do? |
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Paranormal/supernatural beliefs are knowledge placebos. Rumours of a god’s existence have been greatly exaggerated. Make beliefs truths and you get make-believe truths. |
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#142 |
Observer of Phenomena
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#143 |
Philosopher
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Paranormal/supernatural beliefs are knowledge placebos. Rumours of a god’s existence have been greatly exaggerated. Make beliefs truths and you get make-believe truths. |
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#144 |
Skeptical about skeptics
Join Date: Sep 2010
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"The process by which banks create money is so simple that the mind is repelled. Where something so important is involved, a deeper mystery seems only decent." - Galbraith, 1975 |
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#145 |
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Paranormal/supernatural beliefs are knowledge placebos. Rumours of a god’s existence have been greatly exaggerated. Make beliefs truths and you get make-believe truths. |
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#146 |
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Join Date: Feb 2004
Posts: 1,992
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I think it’s just a quirk of English that people don’t say something more like “I guess that’s improbably possible” instead of “I guess that’s probably possible.” Most of the time colloquially ’probably’ used like that indicates you’re not trying to shut down the other guy’s position, out of conversational politics, rather than indicating you think it’s actually more probable than improbable. Like “could be, could be...”
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#147 |
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Ahhh yes... the weeds. And now we shall enter them.
The argument will now be a constant, self feeding, snake eating it's own tail cluster of endless hairsplitting over intellectual probably, semantic nonsense of strong and weak beliefs, meaningless "Do you positively believe the thing exists or negatively believe the thing doesn't exist" and other such tripe. |
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Yahtzee: "You're doing that thing again where when asked a question you just discuss the philosophy of the question instead of answering the bloody question." Gabriel: "Well yeah, you see..." Yahtzee: "No. When you are asked a Yes or No question the first word out of your mouth needs to be Yes or No. Only after that have you earned the right to elaborate." |
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#148 |
Lackey
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#149 |
Philosopher
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Paranormal/supernatural beliefs are knowledge placebos. Rumours of a god’s existence have been greatly exaggerated. Make beliefs truths and you get make-believe truths. |
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#150 |
Philosopher
Join Date: Jun 2008
Posts: 5,268
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On the contrary, it is the heart of the matter. You asserted that religion 'becomes just silly' when it includes the notion of a caring god who takes great interest in our activities (implying that it is not otherwise just silly).
But if many other notions are also silly then why single out religion?
Quote:
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We don't want good, sound arguments. We want arguments that sound good. |
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#151 |
Observer of Phenomena
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But both talking about the same thing is, as you point out, a contradiction. So while it's possible that they're talking about the same thing, it's more likely that I was simply describing two different ways of saying something. The subject is unspecified. Okay, how about this.
Do green cats exist? I think that they probably don't exist. Do deaf tortoiseshell cats exist? I think that they probably do exist. The first is unlikely - who's ever seen a green cat anyway? (psst) So you frame your statement such that you're affirming the negative, even though you don't have proof either way. The second is likely - it certainly isn't beyond the realms of possibility. So you frame your statement such that you're affirming the positive, even though you don't have proof either way. Thus, the statements "it probably exists" and "it probably doesn't exist" are not logically equivalent. QED. |
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#152 |
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Oh really? - GREEN CATS! - Mega fail!
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#153 |
Observer of Phenomena
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Yeah. That's almost all the same one I linked to in my own post. Didn't you see it?
The story is actually that the cat was dyed green in an accident with an industrial colouring agent. It's not naturally green. But it's my go-to in discussions about proving a negative so I thought I'd rope it in here. ![]() |
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#154 |
Philosopher
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Paranormal/supernatural beliefs are knowledge placebos. Rumours of a god’s existence have been greatly exaggerated. Make beliefs truths and you get make-believe truths. |
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#155 |
Observer of Phenomena
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#156 |
The Grammar Tyrant
Join Date: Jul 2006
Posts: 27,830
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When Does Religion Become Just Silly?
First three words: "In the beginning". |
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The point of equilibrium has passed; satire and current events are now indistinguishable. |
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#157 |
Observer of Phenomena
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#158 |
Lackey
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They do exist.
BBC News - Glowing cats shed light on Aids http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/science-environment-14882008 |
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#159 |
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Ben is sick ladies and gentlemen, thats right, Ben is sick. |
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#160 |
Self Employed
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Yahtzee: "You're doing that thing again where when asked a question you just discuss the philosophy of the question instead of answering the bloody question." Gabriel: "Well yeah, you see..." Yahtzee: "No. When you are asked a Yes or No question the first word out of your mouth needs to be Yes or No. Only after that have you earned the right to elaborate." |
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