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Tags atheism , belief in god , Leonardo Blair , mental health issues

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Old 4th January 2020, 07:25 AM   #81
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Originally Posted by DOC View Post
I would have to disagree,<snip>
Bollocks. You tried this nonsense before and ran away from inconvenient facts then.
Originally Posted by DOC View Post
Also there is the evidence that it doesn't even make sense for Christianity to be in existence without a resurrection
Again, bollocks. Power and money are the focus for xianity.
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Old 4th January 2020, 07:40 AM   #82
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Originally Posted by catsmate View Post
Bollocks. You tried this nonsense before and ran away from inconvenient facts then.

Again, bollocks. Power and money are the focus for xianity.
Wildly unfair. Here in the States, the boots-on-the-ground xians don't exchange a penny or influence anyone, excepting by example. Please don't hold up the occasional Joel Olsteen (sp) and condemn all xianity, including those working a soup kitchen or volunteering at a hospital.
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Old 4th January 2020, 01:47 PM   #83
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Originally Posted by Thermal View Post
Wildly unfair. Here in the States, the boots-on-the-ground xians don't exchange a penny or influence anyone, excepting by example. Please don't hold up the occasional Joel Olsteen (sp) and condemn all xianity, including those working a soup kitchen or volunteering at a hospital.
I agree. There is a tendency for the worst and most cupidinous fundamentalists to commandeer the word "Christian," and deny it to those who don't share their narrow, punitive, exclusionist views. We must remember that a great many people who call themselves Christians are not those, but a variety of believers trying in diverse ways to do some good in the world, many of them volunteering their own resources, as well as their time and energy. Some do it better than others. You may disapprove of their choices, their priorities, their rules, and, of course their faith itself. All such criticisms have standing, but to say they're all doing it for power and money diminishes the good many do, misidentifies the harm others do, and also dissipates the argument against those who really are servants of power and money.
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Last edited by bruto; 4th January 2020 at 01:48 PM.
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Old 4th January 2020, 02:23 PM   #84
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Originally Posted by Thermal View Post
Not defending the OP, but teaching the belief in a god that is consistent with the contemporary culture's belief should be taken as a given.....
Teaching kids that some people believe in gods is not the same as telling them gods really exist!
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Old 4th January 2020, 02:50 PM   #85
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Originally Posted by smartcooky View Post
Teaching kids that some people believe in gods is not the same as telling them gods really exist!
Much like telling them the tooth fairy will bring them money isn't the same as telling them some other people believe this.

I don't think it harms the very young to innocently believe in all manner of the supernatural. As they grow up, I think they sort it out for themselves with parents that encourage inquisitiveness and value the truth.

Santa is the best example for me. It doesn't hurt them to believe when young, and they learn that goodness comes from those who love them, even if personified sometimes. They'll get it in their time, as long as they are not threatened lifelong with fire and brimstone.
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Old 5th January 2020, 12:37 AM   #86
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You can still have fun with Santa and the tooth fairy without telling your kid it's real.

Last edited by I Am The Scum; 5th January 2020 at 12:39 AM.
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Old 5th January 2020, 06:46 AM   #87
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Originally Posted by I Am The Scum View Post
You can still have fun with Santa and the tooth fairy without telling your kid it's real.
This. This is the core problem with any and all versions of "bUt yoU'lL DeSTRoY tHe MaGIC!" argument.

There is no form of personal satisfaction, sense of joy or wonder, or any other positive quality that literally requires you to believe false things to be true.
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Old 5th January 2020, 08:41 AM   #88
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Originally Posted by I Am The Scum View Post
You can still have fun with Santa and the tooth fairy without telling your kid it's real.
That's true. You can also discipline the tyke for showing any form of imagination and shame them for pretending. Got a point in there?
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Old 5th January 2020, 09:37 AM   #89
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Originally Posted by Thermal View Post
That's true. You can also discipline the tyke for showing any form of imagination and shame them for pretending. Got a point in there?
Who exactly is advocating disciplining children for "any form of imagination or pretending?"

Is this another hill you've just picked?
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Old 5th January 2020, 09:52 AM   #90
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Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
Who exactly is advocating disciplining children for "any form of imagination or pretending?"
IATS offered an irrelevant comparison. I offered another in kind. Spirit of the Holidays and all.

Quote:
Is this another hill you've just picked?
Is this another lawn you've told the kids to stay off?
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Old 5th January 2020, 11:25 AM   #91
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Originally Posted by I Am The Scum View Post
You can still have fun with Santa and the tooth fairy without telling your kid it's real.
This.

There's also the problems with kids who feel lied to and develop trust issues when they realise Santa isn't real. I don't know how many they are, but they're my main argument against trying to portray Santa as real.

Other than "just don't freaking lie to your own kids".

Originally Posted by Thermal View Post
That's true. You can also discipline the tyke for showing any form of imagination and shame them for pretending. Got a point in there?


Originally Posted by Thermal View Post
Is this another lawn you've told the kids to stay off?
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Old 5th January 2020, 11:26 AM   #92
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Originally Posted by Thermal View Post
IATS offered an irrelevant comparison. I offered another in kind. Spirit of the Holidays and all.
Harry Potter, Santa Claus, and God are all in the same category. His comparison is valid, yours is not.
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Old 5th January 2020, 11:42 AM   #93
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Originally Posted by sackett View Post
Man but I get tired of repeating this: the only thing religion is good for is comforting the dying. Would I lie to a dying person to afford him or her solace? Of course I would! So would you!
Nah. If asked by a child I'd tell them that we don't really know what happens after death, but some people believe you go to Heaven or get born and get to live on Earth again, and isn't that a comforting thought? ETA: then I'd ask the child what they thought, get a discussion going so they got to talk about their thoughts.

Christians offended by this are encouraged to tell me how their idea that the kid is likely going to Hell to suffer for an eternity is less painful or horrific.
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Old 5th January 2020, 11:56 AM   #94
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Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
Harry Potter, Santa Claus, and God are all in the same category. His comparison is valid, yours is not.
Sez you. BTW, his comparison referred to realism in child rearing strategies. Mine did too. Your out in left field invocation of Harry Potter makes me think your white patent leather loafers are too tight.
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Old 5th January 2020, 12:04 PM   #95
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OOookkaaaay.

Arguing with you is... weird. It's like you're always having a different discussion from everyone else and you're always really, really passionate about the discussion that's going on in your alternative universe.

Either just jump ahead to the "Thermal flounces out of the thread (for the first time)" stage or the "Thermal now shifts into arguing that nobody is really disagreeing" stage and don't waste our time.
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Old 5th January 2020, 12:34 PM   #96
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Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
OOookkaaaay.

Arguing with you is... weird. It's like you're always having a different discussion from everyone else and you're always really, really passionate about the discussion that's going on in your alternative universe.

Either just jump ahead to the "Thermal flounces out of the thread (for the first time)" stage or the "Thermal now shifts into arguing that nobody is really disagreeing" stage and don't waste our time.
Aaahhh, the beloved 'alternative universe' strawman argument you so love to dismissively roll out in lieu of honest discussion. Here it's only the 5th day of the year, too.

Also it's a little precious how you demand there only be two possible POVs in a discussion. The innocence is charming.

Bonus points for lying about 'flouncing out of the discussion'. I occasionally bail from unproductive exchanges with a specific poster, but it is sweet how you misrepresent that too.

Always a pleasure.
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Old 5th January 2020, 03:12 PM   #97
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Originally Posted by kmortis View Post
DOC, I think you're missing the point. You presented us with an article stating that non-believers should lie to their kids and promote a deity in times of great stress (death being the example given, but one can assume that it could be argued for other cases). What you have failed to do is satisfactory explain why it necessarily has to be the god of the Christians, other than the fact that it's the belief system (BS) that you happen to adhere to. What if a person followed a different BS? Should a Muslim also use Jehovah/Jesus? A Taoist? A Buddhist? A follower of a cargo cult?
I guess other religions will have different ways to help distressed children. For example Chinese religions like Buddhism and Taoism might comfort a distressed child by saying grandma could come back as an animal the child likes.

From the NCBI website:

In the Chinese religions, there is no a single God to worship, there is no afterlife in the Western sense, and there is lack of social support system and coping mechanism as the religious people do not meet regularly. Different from all the mainstream religions in the West, Chinese religions are often associated with superstition as the saying of zongjiao mixin. To some Chinese individuals, being religious is equivalent of being superstitious, and death is a solution of all the problems and beginning of a new life. The Buddhist and Taoist belief in metempsychoses indicates the rebirth of the soul at death in another body, either human or animal.

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2730492/

On the other hand the article says only about 8% of Chinese are religious so if the therapist in the OP article is right, it would seem that Chinese children on the whole would have a tougher time dealing with the sudden death of a close relative since it is unlikely their parents will bring God or heaven into the picture. That being the case I believe it would be an advantage for a Chinese person to be a Christian over being an atheist when it comes to helping distressed children dealing with the death of a close relative.

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Old 5th January 2020, 03:59 PM   #98
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Why not better off being a Muslim or even better being a Mazdayasnain?
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Old 5th January 2020, 04:56 PM   #99
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That's the problem with any version of the "Believe in God as a simple cost-benefit analysis" argument going all the way back to Pascal's Wager.

"Which God" and "Believe how?" are not minor side discussions or nitpicks, they are core parts of the argument.

Every religion puts specifics on what God is and how he has to be worshipped. Yes, all of them.

Okay so I want to "hedge my bets" or teach my children to do the same. What do I do? Do I face Mecca, pick a rosary, slaughter a chicken, not eat pork, not eat meat on Friday, get circumcised, not get circumcised, what? And no I can't just do all of them and no I can't not do them either.

"God is this vague, non-picky thing who's going to be happy with any type of worship he gets" is no more logical or self evident then the God who has a specific set of rules to follow.
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Old 5th January 2020, 05:50 PM   #100
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Doc! Nice to see you back. You disappeared so quickly and for so long I feared something bad had happened to you. I must say you do seem in fine fettle, I hope that is the case, and full of your old 'fighting spirit'. Huzzah!
In response to your OP, please may I refer you to the responses made to every other thread of yours as they are still relevant today as they were 5-6 or 7 years ago. You still quote-mine Ehrman, your doubling down on your circular reasoning and your still persisting with your 'evidence for God'. I'm proud of you.
Anyway, as I said, it's nice to see you back. But, can I please ask that we discuss something new, all of your old points (and this new, rehashing of them) have been soundly thrashed in each of their own threads and I've lost my 'Doc Bingo' cards.
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Old 5th January 2020, 07:47 PM   #101
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Okay, Doc, then tell us the difference between religion and superstition.
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Old 5th January 2020, 10:06 PM   #102
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Originally Posted by Thermal View Post
IATS offered an irrelevant comparison. I offered another in kind. Spirit of the Holidays and all.



Is this another lawn you've told the kids to stay off?
I'll spell out my point more clearly.

There are valid concerns with telling one's children that Santa is real: It's dishonest, unskeptical, and has the potential to harm trust. The alternative is posed as a kind of trade-off: Sure those things are bad, but Santa is fun, so the benefits outweigh the costs.

My point is that you can get the best of both worlds. Tell your kids that Santa is a type of "game" that people play around Christmas, kinda like a Halloween costume. Now, nobody is being misled, and it's still fun.

Hope that helps.
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Old 6th January 2020, 12:36 AM   #103
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Not this crap again.

What baffles me though is how much negligent hand-waving is done by people when it comes to lying, especially to children. No. Lying is bad. Don't do it. No real reason to.

But it's a joke when I get to read a few people acting like the torture question: they have to come up with some incredibly implausible, never-actually-happens-in-real-life scenarios such as "hey there's a ticking time bomb located somewhere which will go off in 24 hours and nuke San Francisco unless we torture a ton of dudes, pronto, to hell with the consequences". No, it's not okay to torture anybody. No, it doesn't work.

It never suddenly becomes okay to lie to people about fantasies and religions. In this case, it's often the theist-on-his-deathbed-who-implausibly-asks-the-non-believer-to-pray-for-or-with-him-or-asks-the-atheists-opinion-on-the-afterlife and then they're all like, "Hey lie like a goddamned rug! Go for it!"

Frankly, I think it's because the people who are okay with lying just simply don't have enough tact or nuance to deal with telling the truth. And no, responding to the wife's loaded question of "does my butt look fat in this dress" with a "yes, but it's the truth" doesn't know enough to separate truth from opinion and should simply remain either silent or single.
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Old 6th January 2020, 04:04 AM   #104
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Originally Posted by sackett View Post
Okay, Doc, then tell us the difference between religion and superstition.
I could answer but it would probably be off topic.
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Old 6th January 2020, 04:37 AM   #105
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Originally Posted by welshdean View Post
Anyway, as I said, it's nice to see you back. But, can I please ask that we discuss something new...
A Jewish Psychoanalyst with over 20 years experience saying atheists should lie to their children about God is new.

And when Mojo asks me for historical evidence in post 19 I gave him some.

And when people keep making wide sweeping generalizations such as all your past points have been soundly thrashed I might make it another 6 year absence. Any transient on a library computer could make a similar statement without having read one word of my threads. People should let my past posts speak for themselves without continually offering no information empty opinions about them.
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Old 6th January 2020, 06:30 AM   #106
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Originally Posted by DOC View Post
A Jewish Psychoanalyst with over 20 years experience saying atheists should lie to their children about God is new.
Atheists just aren't as comfortable being liars as theists are.

Quote:
And when people keep making wide sweeping generalizations such as all your past points have been soundly thrashed I might make it another 6 year absence.
All of your past points have been soundly thrashed.

Quote:
Any transient on a library computer could make a similar statement without having read one word of my threads. People should let my past posts speak for themselves without continually offering no information empty opinions about them.
Then you should let your past posts and all of the refutations speak for themselves, DOC. Your no information empty opinion is simply you regurgitating all of your past refuted points.

So is it only the Abrahamic gods whose existence you think needs to be lied about?
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Old 6th January 2020, 06:53 AM   #107
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Originally Posted by DOC View Post
A Jewish Psychoanalyst with over 20 years experience saying atheists should lie to their children about God is new.
Which god does he suggest they lie about the existence of?
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Old 6th January 2020, 07:08 AM   #108
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Hey, Norseman: The woman across the street from me has inoperable cancer. She'll die soon. Nothing theoretical about it.

She's religious and it seems to comfort her. But in that hour when doubt enters her mind, and fear with it, she may well ask for reassurance. I hope she doesn't ask me, but if she does, I'll lie like a trouper, and I hope you'll issue me a ticket to hell for it. See you there.
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What region of the earth is not filled with our calamities? -- Virgil

Last edited by sackett; 6th January 2020 at 07:12 AM.
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Old 6th January 2020, 07:11 AM   #109
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I just felt a breeze

Originally Posted by DOC View Post
I could answer but it would probably be off topic.
Hey, I just had a brilliant idear! Consider ALL your answers off-topic!

Run silent, run deep.
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What region of the earth is not filled with our calamities? -- Virgil
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Old 6th January 2020, 08:17 AM   #110
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Starting a topic on a thing then doing the whole "But awwww shucks me defending it might be off topic" thing is certainly... bold.
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Old 6th January 2020, 09:35 AM   #111
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Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
Starting a topic on a thing then doing the whole "But awwww shucks me defending it might be off topic" thing is certainly... bold.
ftfy
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Old 6th January 2020, 10:09 AM   #112
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To be fair, some posts including some from DOC, were moved to AAH for being off topic.

I hope that encourages DOC to answer the questions actually asked without resorting to tired old nonsense long refuted.
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Old 6th January 2020, 04:13 PM   #113
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Originally Posted by DOC View Post
The idea that you simply die and turn to dust may work for some adults, but it doesn’t help children.
May work???! Doesn't help children?
Well, it helps them understand life and death, which appears to be what it's supposed to do, doesn't it? The idea is pretty straightforward and uncomplicated. Children should be able to grasp it. Adults who've been lied to as kids and now lie to themselves are the ones who don't seem to get it.

Quote:
Belief in Heaven helps them grapple with this tremendous and incomprehensible loss.

There's absolutely nothing incomprehensible about it. Ask (almost) any biologist! In Scandinavia, it appears to be what most parents tell their children. However, a few parents resort to the lie that 'nobody knows what happens after death' in order to avoid having to tell their children the truth.
Based on what I've heard from adults whose irreligious parents told them the truth (I wasn't so lucky myself), it's not at all traumatic to be told about death. (But remember, we're the kind of people who take our children to see young giraffes be dismembered and fed to the lions!)

The children who are told that an eternal life in Paradise awaits them after death are the ones who tend to think of the big nothing as something scary and awful. Otherwise, why would their parents tell them the Paradise lie?
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Old 6th January 2020, 07:43 PM   #114
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Doc.
What do you tell the kids when someones 'Uncle Ernie' dies?
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Old 6th January 2020, 07:57 PM   #115
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Originally Posted by welshdean View Post
Doc.
What do you tell the kids when someones 'Uncle Ernie' dies?
I remember when my Uncle Ernie died. My parents told me exactly what had happened and what it meant.
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Old 6th January 2020, 08:21 PM   #116
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Originally Posted by welshdean View Post
Doc.
What do you tell the kids when someones 'Uncle Ernie' dies?
If it is an Uncle Ernie like in “Tommy” you invite the kids to join in the celebration.
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Old 6th January 2020, 10:08 PM   #117
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Originally Posted by arthwollipot View Post
I remember when my Uncle Ernie died. My parents told me exactly what had happened and what it meant.
Same when my Great Aunt Jenny died. I was 8. I handled it.
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Old 6th January 2020, 11:06 PM   #118
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Originally Posted by I Am The Scum View Post
I'll spell out my point more clearly.

There are valid concerns with telling one's children that Santa is real: It's dishonest, unskeptical, and has the potential to harm trust. The alternative is posed as a kind of trade-off: Sure those things are bad, but Santa is fun, so the benefits outweigh the costs.
I'm on the edge of my seat to see that robust evidence that *checks notes* telling your kids about Santa has the potential to harm trust, et al. Groundbreaking research, I'm sure. Otherwise, that which is asserted with out evidence...

Quote:
My point is that you can get the best of both worlds. Tell your kids that Santa is a type of "game" that people play around Christmas, kinda like a Halloween costume. Now, nobody is being misled, and it's still fun.

Hope that helps.
Yeah, got it the first time. Since the theme is what creates trust issues, to wit: I assert, with the same authority as you do, that taking Santa away from your kids has the potential to harm trust.
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Old 7th January 2020, 12:22 AM   #119
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Originally Posted by arthwollipot View Post
I remember when my Uncle Ernie died. My parents told me exactly what had happened and what it meant.
Mine too, they said, "you don't have an Uncle Ernie".
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Old 7th January 2020, 12:41 AM   #120
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Originally Posted by bluesjnr View Post
Mine too, they said, "you don't have an Uncle Ernie".
Mine was "Uncle Ernie committed suicide last night".
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