|
Welcome to the International Skeptics Forum, where we discuss skepticism, critical thinking, the paranormal and science in a friendly but lively way. You are currently viewing the forum as a guest, which means you are missing out on discussing matters that are of interest to you. Please consider registering so you can gain full use of the forum features and interact with other Members. Registration is simple, fast and free! Click here to register today. |
![]() |
#121 |
The Grammar Tyrant
Join Date: Jul 2006
Posts: 27,851
|
I glanced at the thread title and saw: The rapist says if you're an atheist you should lie to your kids about God.
Makes as much sense either way. |
__________________
The point of equilibrium has passed; satire and current events are now indistinguishable. |
|
![]() ![]() |
![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() |
![]() |
#122 |
Heb ei fai, heb ei eni
Join Date: Jul 2002
Posts: 3,752
|
Is there any other 'Uncle Ernie'?
My point being, if it behoves Doc to lie to a child about Auntie Doris, sitting on a cloud, being massaged by angels, then what if an absolute bastard like Townshends 'Ernie' dies? Would you, Doc, tell the same poor child that his uncle is having hot lava poured down his 'japs-eye' for all eternity*? *or some other painful punishment. |
__________________
"In science it often happens that scientists say, "You know that's a really good argument; my position is mistaken," and then they would actually change their minds and you never hear that old view from them again. They really do it. I cannot recall the last time something like that happened in politics or religion." Carl Sagan 1934 - 1996 RIP |
|
![]() ![]() |
![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() |
![]() |
#123 |
Lackey
Administrator
Join Date: Aug 2001
Location: South East, UK
Posts: 96,011
|
Or if you want to follow what many of the Christian religions think:
Parent: Uncle Ernie has died. KID: What does that mean? Parent:You'll never see him again. Kid: Really? Parent: Well not in this life, but as he died he gave his heart to Jesus so he is now in heaven. Kid: Heaven? Parent: Yes. It's where everyone that gives their heart to Jesus lives for every more. It's where everything is beuatiful, everyone is very happy and you'll be with Uncle Ernie again. Kid: When I'm in heaven will Uncle Ernie still come into my room every night and rape me? Parent: .... Yep lies are always so comforting. |
__________________
I wish I knew how to quit you |
|
![]() ![]() |
![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() |
![]() |
#124 |
Philosopher
Join Date: Jan 2007
Posts: 7,959
|
Well, I'd probably tell the child that since Uncle Ernie did very bad things and chose not to ask for forgiveness from God, he will spend eternity away from God and heaven. It was Uncle Ernie's own choice not to be near God or be in heaven.
Upon reading the below article, my actions above might be something the current pope would agree with: https://www.ncronline.org/news/opini...ancis-and-hell |
![]() ![]() |
![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() |
![]() |
#125 |
Hostile Nanobacon
Join Date: Jul 2008
Posts: 30,587
|
|
![]() ![]() |
![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() |
![]() |
#126 |
Self Employed
Remittance Man Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: Florida
Posts: 29,764
|
Wow all of this just seems so infinitely more complicated then just not making up a God you then have to make up stuff to explain.
|
__________________
Yahtzee: "You're doing that thing again where when asked a question you just discuss the philosophy of the question instead of answering the bloody question." Gabriel: "Well yeah, you see..." Yahtzee: "No. When you are asked a Yes or No question the first word out of your mouth needs to be Yes or No. Only after that have you earned the right to elaborate." |
|
![]() ![]() |
![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() |
![]() |
#127 |
Hostile Nanobacon
Join Date: Jul 2008
Posts: 30,587
|
Here's a counterpoint in Psychology Today to that religious psychoanalyst: https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/b...lieving-in-god
Quote:
Quote:
So, while I don't usually consider opinions to be correct or incorrect, Komisar's opinion is wrong. I'll just leave the lying and moral bankruptcy to the religious. |
![]() ![]() |
![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() |
![]() |
#128 |
Philosopher
Join Date: Aug 2003
Location: Detroit
Posts: 6,284
|
Don't let the atheists get to you, DOC. Believers lie to themselves, so why shouldn't they lie to their kids, right?
|
__________________
Fill the seats of justice with good men; not so absolute in goodness as to forget what human frailty is. -- Thomas Jefferson What region of the earth is not filled with our calamities? -- Virgil |
|
![]() ![]() |
![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() |
![]() |
#129 |
Philosopher
Join Date: Jan 2007
Posts: 7,959
|
The title of this thread contains the wording "if you're an atheist". If the author (Phil Zuckerman) of the above article is an atheist he would still be acting untruthful by saying such things to the child as "maybe we float in the clouds" or "maybe we return as another life-form" after death. That sounds more like an agnostic than a true atheist.
|
![]() ![]() |
![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() |
![]() |
#130 |
Self Employed
Remittance Man Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: Florida
Posts: 29,764
|
Oh goodie that meaningless hairsplit. Yes let's have a 50 page meaningless hijack about that.
Reality doesn't change based on personal opinions. If you honestly believe the moon is made of green cheese you shouldn't "also teach your child that just to hedge your bets." "Belief" is just meaningless a euphemism for disinformation. |
__________________
Yahtzee: "You're doing that thing again where when asked a question you just discuss the philosophy of the question instead of answering the bloody question." Gabriel: "Well yeah, you see..." Yahtzee: "No. When you are asked a Yes or No question the first word out of your mouth needs to be Yes or No. Only after that have you earned the right to elaborate." |
|
![]() ![]() |
![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() |
![]() |
#131 |
Hostile Nanobacon
Join Date: Jul 2008
Posts: 30,587
|
|
![]() ![]() |
![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() |
![]() |
#132 |
Illuminator
Join Date: Mar 2010
Posts: 4,558
|
Respectfully, I don't think you're understanding my point at all.
1. If a child goes many years being told by their parents that Santa is real, and then one day the child learns that Santa is not real, they might feel as though they've been lied to. That harms trust. 2. Likewise, if that same child is told from day 1 that Santa is not real (but it's still fun to pretend), there is no lie, and no harm to trust can result. Do you disagree with either of the above statements? |
![]() ![]() |
![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() |
![]() |
#133 |
Bandaged ice that stampedes inexpensively through a scribbled morning waving necessary ankles
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: Cair Paravel, according to XKCD
Posts: 32,184
|
So what? You have provided one (1) professional opinion that people should lie to their children about God, and you've been provided with one (1) equally credible professional opinion that they shouldn't. At the moment, neither side has the preponderance of evidence, so you should stop acting as though your side of the argument is proven when it isn't.
Dave |
__________________
Inspiring discussion of Sharknado is not a good sign for the audience expectations of your new high-concept SF movie sequel. - Myriad |
|
![]() ![]() |
![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() |
![]() |
#134 |
Illuminator
Join Date: Jan 2007
Posts: 3,279
|
Once a child can formulate the question they can, at least in a hazy abstract way, conceive of multiple answers.
You tell them the truth in a nice way that is comprehensible to them. You don’t need to be the straw man atheist ******* delighting in ruining children’s imagination. Just don’t lie. The truth, as near as we know it, is the correct answer to the question. |
__________________
'A knave; a rascal; an eater of broken meats; a base, proud, shallow, beggardly, three-suited, hundred-pound, filthy, worsted-stocking knave; a lily-livered, action-taking knave, a whoreson, glass-gazing, superservicable, finical rogue;... the son and heir of a mongral bitch: one whom I will beat into clamorous whining, if thou deniest the least syllable of thy addition."' -The Bard |
|
![]() ![]() |
![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() |
![]() |
#135 |
Bandaged ice that stampedes inexpensively through a scribbled morning waving necessary ankles
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: Cair Paravel, according to XKCD
Posts: 32,184
|
And, of course, saying "I don't know what happens to people after they die" is not a lie. I'm pretty certain the answer is that the person doesn't exist any more, but I couldn't put my hand on my heart and swear that I'm absolutely 100% certain of that. Even though I'm as strong-case an atheist as anyone I've ever encountered, I'd be stupid if I wasn't prepared to revise my understanding in the light of new evidence.
Oh, and "agnostic" and "atheist" are not mutually exclusive; they refer to different axes, of what we believe and of our confidence in those beliefs. Dave |
__________________
Inspiring discussion of Sharknado is not a good sign for the audience expectations of your new high-concept SF movie sequel. - Myriad |
|
![]() ![]() |
![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() |
![]() |
#136 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: Way way north of Diddy Wah Diddy
Posts: 27,213
|
Where did the Santa we're taking away come from? I agree that if your kid has decided on their (sic) own to believe in Santa it seems reasonable to let it slide, or at least not to drop the hammer. But if nobody gives them (sic) Santa, then there's nothing to take away. And if a Santa story from elsewhere is contrary to one's principles, then why should it be reinforced? Must we go along with anything if the kid picks it up on the street? When our devout Catholic neighbors told me at five that I'd go to Hell for not believing, my parents did not consider it a breach of trust to tell me that it was a matter of faith, not fact. Santa is a little more benign than that, but I think if one treats him as make believe, or just kind of sidesteps him, kids get the idea quickly enough.
If you commit to telling your kids about Santa, then I would guess you're committed to the story, but there's no law that says one has to, any more than we must tell them about the Easter Bunny or the Flying Spaghetti Monster or the four horsemen of the apocalypse. |
__________________
I love this world, but not for its answers. (Mary Oliver) Quand il dit "cuic" le moineau croit tout dire. (When he's tweeted the sparrow thinks he's said it all. (Jules Renard) |
|
![]() ![]() |
![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() |
![]() |
#137 |
Philosopher
Join Date: Jan 2007
Posts: 7,959
|
Well I'm not going to talk anymore about Santa Claus but he exists if we are to believe the most reprinted newspaper editorial in history:
https://www.newseum.org/exhibits/onl...a-santa-claus/ |
![]() ![]() |
![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() |
![]() |
#138 |
Observer of Phenomena
Pronouns: he/him Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: Ngunnawal Country
Posts: 69,479
|
In the end, there's just no need to lie to children. I never lied to my child, and he grew up fine. If you lie to a child, one day you're going to have to explain to them why you lied.
|
__________________
Please scream inside your heart. |
|
![]() ![]() |
![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() |
![]() |
#139 |
Hostile Nanobacon
Join Date: Jul 2008
Posts: 30,587
|
|
![]() ![]() |
![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() |
![]() |
#140 |
Graduate Poster
Join Date: Jun 2012
Location: Jacksonville, FL
Posts: 1,543
|
To each his own I suppose. I'm nearly 40 and still have very fun, fond memories of awaiting Santa, the Easter Bunny, the Tooth Fairy, etc. I've raised children in a similar fashion and I know they enjoyed it, too. I never once harbored any ill-will towards my parents. I was aware enough to realize it was for fun.
|
__________________
Ben is sick ladies and gentlemen, thats right, Ben is sick. |
|
![]() ![]() |
![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() |
![]() |
#141 |
Observer of Phenomena
Pronouns: he/him Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: Ngunnawal Country
Posts: 69,479
|
|
__________________
Please scream inside your heart. |
|
![]() ![]() |
![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() |
![]() |
#142 |
Professional Nemesis for Hire
Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: Home.
Posts: 8,298
|
|
__________________
![]() |
|
![]() ![]() |
![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() |
![]() |
#143 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Feb 2004
Posts: 13,245
|
Exactly! And children are actually supposed to debunk the Santa lie at some point. They used to have special schools for those who don't. The experience of finding out that Santa is a lie may even make them ask themselves (and others): What else that I've been told isn't true? Santa is very educational in that respect: Christians could learn a lot from him! |
__________________
/dann "Stupidity renders itself invisible by assuming very large proportions. Completely unreasonable claims are irrefutable. Ni-en-leh pointed out that a philosopher might get into trouble by claiming that two times two makes five, but he does not risk much by claiming that two times two makes shoe polish." B. Brecht "The abolition of religion as the illusory happiness of the people is required for their real happiness. The demand to give up the illusion about its condition is the demand to give up a condition which needs illusions." K. Marx |
|
![]() ![]() |
![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() |
![]() |
#144 |
Philosopher
Join Date: Jan 2007
Posts: 7,959
|
|
![]() ![]() |
![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() |
![]() |
#145 |
Bandaged ice that stampedes inexpensively through a scribbled morning waving necessary ankles
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: Cair Paravel, according to XKCD
Posts: 32,184
|
|
__________________
Inspiring discussion of Sharknado is not a good sign for the audience expectations of your new high-concept SF movie sequel. - Myriad |
|
![]() ![]() |
![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() |
![]() |
#146 |
Master Poster
Join Date: Oct 2009
Posts: 2,401
|
|
![]() ![]() |
![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() |
![]() |
#147 |
Hostile Nanobacon
Join Date: Jul 2008
Posts: 30,587
|
|
![]() ![]() |
![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() |
![]() |
#148 |
Self Employed
Remittance Man Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: Florida
Posts: 29,764
|
I so we are firmly in the "My God makes perfect sense and clarifies things for Children, other Gods are confusing and would give the little tykes unrecoverable existential criseses" and "God and Santa are different because God is superserious I'm for realizes guys"
Santa is lot more serious for children then God is to adults who aren't seen as mentally ill. |
__________________
Yahtzee: "You're doing that thing again where when asked a question you just discuss the philosophy of the question instead of answering the bloody question." Gabriel: "Well yeah, you see..." Yahtzee: "No. When you are asked a Yes or No question the first word out of your mouth needs to be Yes or No. Only after that have you earned the right to elaborate." |
|
![]() ![]() |
![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() |
![]() |
#149 |
Graduate Poster
Join Date: Jun 2012
Location: Jacksonville, FL
Posts: 1,543
|
|
__________________
Ben is sick ladies and gentlemen, thats right, Ben is sick. |
|
![]() ![]() |
![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() |
![]() |
#150 |
Master Poster
Join Date: Oct 2009
Posts: 2,401
|
Indeed. I don't want to get this thread out of topic.
But the gist is that indeed, DOC has attempted to give us the "evidence" of why Christianity is true and done such a great job over a billion pages that 2 users said it helped them see how it got blasted and how there really is nothing to show for it or he would have done that by the millionth page. Which is why it's great he's back! Hopefully bigger and better than ever! We need more people on our side ![]() |
![]() ![]() |
![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() |
![]() |
#151 |
No longer the 1
Join Date: Apr 2007
Posts: 23,423
|
|
__________________
As human right is always something given, it always in reality reduces to the right which men give, "concede," to each other. If the right to existence is conceded to new-born children, then they have the right; if it is not conceded to them, as was the case among the Spartans and ancient Romans, then they do not have it. For only society can give or concede it to them; they themselves cannot take it, or give it to themselves. |
|
![]() ![]() |
![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() |
![]() |
#152 |
Philosopher
Join Date: Jan 2007
Posts: 7,959
|
More than likely it's not true. Anybody with a grudge, or who is a troll, can say anything on these threads. And out of my nearly 8000 posts, there was only one poster who made that claim and when I asked for them to give a post that allegedly caused this they didn't answer. Any anonymous person can say anything for whatever reason, but not any person can give a reasoned explanation when asked.
|
![]() ![]() |
![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() |
![]() |
#153 |
Philosopher
Join Date: Jan 2007
Posts: 7,959
|
|
![]() ![]() |
![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() |
![]() |
#154 |
Self Employed
Remittance Man Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: Florida
Posts: 29,764
|
|
__________________
Yahtzee: "You're doing that thing again where when asked a question you just discuss the philosophy of the question instead of answering the bloody question." Gabriel: "Well yeah, you see..." Yahtzee: "No. When you are asked a Yes or No question the first word out of your mouth needs to be Yes or No. Only after that have you earned the right to elaborate." |
|
![]() ![]() |
![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() |
![]() |
#155 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Aug 2016
Location: East Coast USA
Posts: 13,017
|
|
__________________
We find comfort among those who agree with us, growth among those who don't -Frank A. Clark Whenever you find yourself on the side of the majority, it is time to pause and reflect -Mark Twain |
|
![]() ![]() |
![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() |
![]() |
#156 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: Way way north of Diddy Wah Diddy
Posts: 27,213
|
But the question is not what you like or don't like, nor what might confuse you. Hindu children get Hindu religion. If you can provide evidence that this causes them confusion that some other religion would assuage, there's plenty of room left in this thread for you to provide some good evidence.
|
__________________
I love this world, but not for its answers. (Mary Oliver) Quand il dit "cuic" le moineau croit tout dire. (When he's tweeted the sparrow thinks he's said it all. (Jules Renard) |
|
![]() ![]() |
![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() |
![]() |
#157 |
Hostile Nanobacon
Join Date: Jul 2008
Posts: 30,587
|
|
![]() ![]() |
![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() |
![]() |
#158 |
Biomechanoid
Director of IDIOCY (Region 13) Administrator Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: New Texas (aka SOMD)
Posts: 31,156
|
|
__________________
-Aberhaten did it - "Which gives us an answer to our question. What’s the worst thing that can happen in a pressure cooker?" Randall Munroe -Director of Independent Determining Inquisitor Of Crazy Yapping - Aberhaten's Apothegm™ - An Internet law that states that optimism is indistinguishable from sarcasm |
|
![]() ![]() |
![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() |
![]() |
#159 |
"más divertido"
Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: USA! USA!
Posts: 22,779
|
I was one of the two. You'd have to search my posts in one of the continuation "evidence for why we know the writers of the new testament told the truth" (sic) threads.
ETA - on topic: Actually, one of the contributing factors was when I caught myself telling a child how "when people are still talking about you and quoting you 2,000 years later, then maybe we can discuss how Jesus was wrong" or something like that. My skeptical brain knew that this was a fallacy, and DOCs threads were he first time I had applied skepticism to the New Testament since I had been a kid in Sunday School. So I don't believe in lying to children about God, because they might learn bad logic in the process, since religion only has apologetics to defend it. EEEETTTTTTAAAAA - try this. |
![]() ![]() |
![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() |
![]() |
#160 |
Heb ei fai, heb ei eni
Join Date: Jul 2002
Posts: 3,752
|
|
__________________
"In science it often happens that scientists say, "You know that's a really good argument; my position is mistaken," and then they would actually change their minds and you never hear that old view from them again. They really do it. I cannot recall the last time something like that happened in politics or religion." Carl Sagan 1934 - 1996 RIP |
|
![]() ![]() |
![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() |
![]() |
Bookmarks |
Thread Tools | |
|
|