Therapist says if you're an atheist you should lie to your kids about God. - Page 4

The Atheist · 7th January 2020, 12:45 AM

I glanced at the thread title and saw: The rapist says if you're an atheist you should lie to your kids about God.

Makes as much sense either way.

welshdean · 7th January 2020, 04:26 AM

Originally Posted by Steve

Originally Posted by welshdean

Doc.
What do you tell the kids when someones 'Uncle Ernie' dies?

If it is an Uncle Ernie like in “Tommy” you invite the kids to join in the celebration.

Is there any other 'Uncle Ernie'?
My point being, if it behoves Doc to lie to a child about Auntie Doris, sitting on a cloud, being massaged by angels, then what if an absolute bastard like Townshends 'Ernie' dies? Would you, Doc, tell the same poor child that his uncle is having hot lava poured down his 'japs-eye' for all eternity*?

*or some other painful punishment.

Darat · 7th January 2020, 05:24 AM

Or if you want to follow what many of the Christian religions think:

Parent: Uncle Ernie has died.
KID: What does that mean?
Parent:You'll never see him again.
Kid: Really?
Parent: Well not in this life, but as he died he gave his heart to Jesus so he is now in heaven.
Kid: Heaven?
Parent: Yes. It's where everyone that gives their heart to Jesus lives for every more. It's where everything is beuatiful, everyone is very happy and you'll be with Uncle Ernie again.
Kid: When I'm in heaven will Uncle Ernie still come into my room every night and rape me?
Parent: ....

Yep lies are always so comforting.

DOC · 7th January 2020, 08:05 AM

Originally Posted by welshdean

Is there any other 'Uncle Ernie'?
My point being, if it behoves Doc to lie to a child about Auntie Doris, sitting on a cloud, being massaged by angels, then what if an absolute bastard like Townshends 'Ernie' dies? Would you, Doc, tell the same poor child that his uncle is having hot lava poured down his 'japs-eye' for all eternity*?

*or some other painful punishment.

Well, I'd probably tell the child that since Uncle Ernie did very bad things and chose not to ask for forgiveness from God, he will spend eternity away from God and heaven. It was Uncle Ernie's own choice not to be near God or be in heaven.

Upon reading the below article, my actions above might be something the current pope would agree with:

https://www.ncronline.org/news/opini...ancis-and-hell

RoboTimbo · 7th January 2020, 08:08 AM

Originally Posted by DOC

Well, I'd probably tell the child that since Uncle Ernie did very bad things and chose not to ask for forgiveness from God, he will spend eternity away from God and heaven. It was Uncle Ernie's own choice not to be near God or be in heaven.

You'd compound the lie of a god's existence with lies about the existence of make believe heaven and hell?

JoeMorgue · 7th January 2020, 08:15 AM

Wow all of this just seems so infinitely more complicated then just not making up a God you then have to make up stuff to explain.

RoboTimbo · 7th January 2020, 08:25 AM

Here's a counterpoint in Psychology Today to that religious psychoanalyst: https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/b...lieving-in-god

Quote:

Komisar maintains that parents who aren’t religious should just, well... fake it. Pretend. Deceive. Lie.

No, no, no, and no.

and

Quote:

Recent research has found that children raised in non-religious homes do just fine. In fact, many do better than fine, exhibiting a plethora of positive moral traits that are sometimes more pronounced than children raised in religious homes.

Bolding mine.

So, while I don't usually consider opinions to be correct or incorrect, Komisar's opinion is wrong.

I'll just leave the lying and moral bankruptcy to the religious.

sackett · 7th January 2020, 08:59 AM

Don't let the atheists get to you, DOC. Believers lie to themselves, so why shouldn't they lie to their kids, right?

DOC · 7th January 2020, 09:04 AM

Originally Posted by RoboTimbo

Here's a counterpoint in Psychology Today to that religious psychoanalyst: https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/b...lieving-in-god

The title of this thread contains the wording "if you're an atheist". If the author (Phil Zuckerman) of the above article is an atheist he would still be acting untruthful by saying such things to the child as "maybe we float in the clouds" or "maybe we return as another life-form" after death. That sounds more like an agnostic than a true atheist.

JoeMorgue · 7th January 2020, 09:06 AM

Originally Posted by DOC

The title of this thread contains the wording "if you're an atheist". If the author of the above article is an atheist he would still be acting untruthful by saying such things to the child as "maybe we float in the clouds" or "maybe we return as another life-form". That sounds more like an agnostic then a true atheist.

Oh goodie that meaningless hairsplit. Yes let's have a 50 page meaningless hijack about that.

Reality doesn't change based on personal opinions. If you honestly believe the moon is made of green cheese you shouldn't "also teach your child that just to hedge your bets."

"Belief" is just meaningless a euphemism for disinformation.

RoboTimbo · 7th January 2020, 09:09 AM

Originally Posted by DOC

The title of this thread contains the wording "if you're an atheist". If the author of the above article is an atheist he would still be acting untruthful by saying such things to the child as "maybe we float in the clouds" or "maybe we return as another life-form". That sounds more like an agnostic then a true atheist.

I suspect the author of the above article was only talking to atheists as he knows that theists will continue to lie to their children.

I Am The Scum · 7th January 2020, 09:27 AM

Originally Posted by Thermal

I'm on the edge of my seat to see that robust evidence that *checks notes* telling your kids about Santa has the potential to harm trust, et al. Groundbreaking research, I'm sure. Otherwise, that which is asserted with out evidence...

Yeah, got it the first time. Since the theme is what creates trust issues, to wit: I assert, with the same authority as you do, that taking Santa away from your kids has the potential to harm trust.

Respectfully, I don't think you're understanding my point at all.

1. If a child goes many years being told by their parents that Santa is real, and then one day the child learns that Santa is not real, they might feel as though they've been lied to. That harms trust.

2. Likewise, if that same child is told from day 1 that Santa is not real (but it's still fun to pretend), there is no lie, and no harm to trust can result.

Do you disagree with either of the above statements?

Dave Rogers · 7th January 2020, 09:56 AM

Originally Posted by DOC

The title of this thread contains the wording "if you're an atheist". If the author (Phil Zuckerman) of the above article is an atheist he would still be acting untruthful by saying such things to the child as "maybe we float in the clouds" or "maybe we return as another life-form" after death. That sounds more like an agnostic than a true atheist.

So what? You have provided one (1) professional opinion that people should lie to their children about God, and you've been provided with one (1) equally credible professional opinion that they shouldn't. At the moment, neither side has the preponderance of evidence, so you should stop acting as though your side of the argument is proven when it isn't.

Dave

autumn1971 · 7th January 2020, 10:08 AM

Once a child can formulate the question they can, at least in a hazy abstract way, conceive of multiple answers.

You tell them the truth in a nice way that is comprehensible to them.

You don’t need to be the straw man atheist ******* delighting in ruining children’s imagination. Just don’t lie.

The truth, as near as we know it, is the correct answer to the question.

Dave Rogers · 7th January 2020, 10:23 AM

Originally Posted by autumn1971

You don’t need to be the straw man atheist ******* delighting in ruining children’s imagination. Just don’t lie.

And, of course, saying "I don't know what happens to people after they die" is not a lie. I'm pretty certain the answer is that the person doesn't exist any more, but I couldn't put my hand on my heart and swear that I'm absolutely 100% certain of that. Even though I'm as strong-case an atheist as anyone I've ever encountered, I'd be stupid if I wasn't prepared to revise my understanding in the light of new evidence.

Oh, and "agnostic" and "atheist" are not mutually exclusive; they refer to different axes, of what we believe and of our confidence in those beliefs.

Dave

bruto · 7th January 2020, 03:38 PM

Originally Posted by Thermal

I'm on the edge of my seat to see that robust evidence that *checks notes* telling your kids about Santa has the potential to harm trust, et al. Groundbreaking research, I'm sure. Otherwise, that which is asserted with out evidence...

Yeah, got it the first time. Since the theme is what creates trust issues, to wit: I assert, with the same authority as you do, that taking Santa away from your kids has the potential to harm trust.

Where did the Santa we're taking away come from? I agree that if your kid has decided on their (sic) own to believe in Santa it seems reasonable to let it slide, or at least not to drop the hammer. But if nobody gives them (sic) Santa, then there's nothing to take away. And if a Santa story from elsewhere is contrary to one's principles, then why should it be reinforced? Must we go along with anything if the kid picks it up on the street? When our devout Catholic neighbors told me at five that I'd go to Hell for not believing, my parents did not consider it a breach of trust to tell me that it was a matter of faith, not fact. Santa is a little more benign than that, but I think if one treats him as make believe, or just kind of sidesteps him, kids get the idea quickly enough.

If you commit to telling your kids about Santa, then I would guess you're committed to the story, but there's no law that says one has to, any more than we must tell them about the Easter Bunny or the Flying Spaghetti Monster or the four horsemen of the apocalypse.

DOC · 7th January 2020, 05:29 PM

Well I'm not going to talk anymore about Santa Claus but he exists if we are to believe the most reprinted newspaper editorial in history:

https://www.newseum.org/exhibits/onl...a-santa-claus/

arthwollipot · 7th January 2020, 06:01 PM

In the end, there's just no need to lie to children. I never lied to my child, and he grew up fine. If you lie to a child, one day you're going to have to explain to them why you lied.

RoboTimbo · 7th January 2020, 06:27 PM

Originally Posted by DOC

Well I'm not going to talk anymore about Santa Claus but he exists if we are to believe the most reprinted newspaper editorial in history:

https://www.newseum.org/exhibits/onl...a-santa-claus/

Ok, let's talk about Shiva, Vishnu and Krishna then. DOC, do you suggest we tell our children that they exist since there is so much evidence for them?

DuvalHMFIC · 7th January 2020, 06:30 PM

To each his own I suppose. I'm nearly 40 and still have very fun, fond memories of awaiting Santa, the Easter Bunny, the Tooth Fairy, etc. I've raised children in a similar fashion and I know they enjoyed it, too. I never once harbored any ill-will towards my parents. I was aware enough to realize it was for fun.

arthwollipot · 7th January 2020, 06:37 PM

Originally Posted by DuvalHMFIC

To each his own I suppose. I'm nearly 40 and still have very fun, fond memories of awaiting Santa, the Easter Bunny, the Tooth Fairy, etc. I've raised children in a similar fashion and I know they enjoyed it, too. I never once harbored any ill-will towards my parents. I was aware enough to realize it was for fun.

And that's the difference between God and Santa. Everyone knows Santa is just for fun. God is serious. Your very soul is at stake.

bluesjnr · 8th January 2020, 01:43 AM

Originally Posted by arthwollipot

Mine was "Uncle Ernie committed suicide last night".

Ok.

dann · 8th January 2020, 03:30 AM

Originally Posted by arthwollipot

And that's the difference between God and Santa. Everyone knows Santa is just for fun. God is serious. Your very soul is at stake.

Exactly! And children are actually supposed to debunk the Santa lie at some point. They used to have special schools for those who don't.
The experience of finding out that Santa is a lie may even make them ask themselves (and others): What else that I've been told isn't true?
Santa is very educational in that respect: Christians could learn a lot from him!

DOC · 8th January 2020, 04:57 AM

Originally Posted by RoboTimbo

Ok, let's talk about Shiva, Vishnu and Krishna then. DOC, do you suggest we tell our children that they exist since there is so much evidence for them?

No, because a child might later get confused by the 33 million other gods in Hinduism. Also I'm not big on the caste system.

Dave Rogers · 8th January 2020, 05:16 AM

Originally Posted by DOC

No, because a child might later get confused by the 33 million other gods in Hinduism.

What's your evidence for this? Given the rather large Hindu population on the Indian sub-continent, one might think it was easy to find if it existed.

Dave

GrandMasterFox · 8th January 2020, 05:51 AM

YES! DOC is back! Best Threads Ever!

Oh boy how I missed this, comedy gold if I've ever seen one.

Originally Posted by DOC

Argument by Assertion. Let the posts stand for themselves without offering up a wide sweeping opinion.

If I recall, your posts have indeed stood for themselves and resulted in at least 2 people that we know that dumped their religion and declared themselves Atheist.

RoboTimbo · 8th January 2020, 06:40 AM

Originally Posted by DOC

No, because a child might later get confused by the 33 million other gods in Hinduism.

Why would they get confused by 33 million other gods? There is such a tremendous amount of evidence for Vishnu, Krishna and Shiva that I think those would be the easiest to tell my children about.

Quote:

Also I'm not big on the caste system.

But you're ok with the horrors of the Christian Bible and its cults?

JoeMorgue · 8th January 2020, 06:49 AM

I so we are firmly in the "My God makes perfect sense and clarifies things for Children, other Gods are confusing and would give the little tykes unrecoverable existential criseses" and "God and Santa are different because God is superserious I'm for realizes guys"

Santa is lot more serious for children then God is to adults who aren't seen as mentally ill.

DuvalHMFIC · 8th January 2020, 06:52 AM

Originally Posted by GrandMasterFox

If I recall, your posts have indeed stood for themselves and resulted in at least 2 people that we know that dumped their religion and declared themselves Atheist.

Is this true? I typically stay out of the religious threads, that's pretty cool!

GrandMasterFox · 8th January 2020, 08:29 AM

Originally Posted by DuvalHMFIC

Is this true? I typically stay out of the religious threads, that's pretty cool!

Indeed. I don't want to get this thread out of topic.
But the gist is that indeed, DOC has attempted to give us the "evidence" of why Christianity is true and done such a great job over a billion pages that 2 users said it helped them see how it got blasted and how there really is nothing to show for it or he would have done that by the millionth page.

Which is why it's great he's back! Hopefully bigger and better than ever!
We need more people on our side

catsmate · 8th January 2020, 09:26 AM

Originally Posted by Thermal

I'm on the edge of my seat to see that robust evidence that *checks notes* telling your kids about Santa has the potential to harm trust, et al. Groundbreaking research, I'm sure. Otherwise, that which is asserted with out evidence...

Yeah, got it the first time. Since the theme is what creates trust issues, to wit: I assert, with the same authority as you do, that taking Santa away from your kids has the potential to harm trust.

Why don't you go and look at the research that shows that lying to children (about god, santa and similar myths) causes them to lie more in turn.

DOC · 8th January 2020, 09:35 AM

Originally Posted by GrandMasterFox

...If I recall, your posts have indeed stood for themselves and resulted in at least 2 people that we know that dumped their religion and declared themselves Atheist.

Originally Posted by DuvalHMFIC

Is this true? I typically stay out of the religious threads, that's pretty cool!

More than likely it's not true. Anybody with a grudge, or who is a troll, can say anything on these threads. And out of my nearly 8000 posts, there was only one poster who made that claim and when I asked for them to give a post that allegedly caused this they didn't answer. Any anonymous person can say anything for whatever reason, but not any person can give a reasoned explanation when asked.

DOC · 8th January 2020, 09:48 AM

Originally Posted by GrandMasterFox

Indeed.

Actually I can only remember one in the several years I've made posts. Why don't you give the posts where this happened. If you can't you should retract the statement.

JoeMorgue · 8th January 2020, 09:57 AM

Originally Posted by DOC

Actually I can only remember one in the several years I've made posts. Why don't you give the posts where this happened. If you can't you should retract the statement.

Oh no any evidence that you are right is a hijack, remember?

Thermal · 8th January 2020, 10:27 AM

Originally Posted by catsmate

Why don't you go and look at the research that shows that lying to children (about god, santa and similar myths) causes them to lie more in turn.

Because it was not my unevidenced assertion. Need me to explain 'burden of proof' to you?

bruto · 8th January 2020, 10:40 AM

Originally Posted by DOC

No, because a child might later get confused by the 33 million other gods in Hinduism. Also I'm not big on the caste system.

But the question is not what you like or don't like, nor what might confuse you. Hindu children get Hindu religion. If you can provide evidence that this causes them confusion that some other religion would assuage, there's plenty of room left in this thread for you to provide some good evidence.

RoboTimbo · 8th January 2020, 10:40 AM

DOC, you didn't answer this:

Originally Posted by RoboTimbo

Why would they get confused by 33 million other gods? There is such a tremendous amount of evidence for Vishnu, Krishna and Shiva that I think those would be the easiest to tell my children about.

But you're ok with the horrors of the Christian Bible and its cults?

kmortis · 8th January 2020, 10:45 AM

Originally Posted by DOC

No, because a child might later get confused by the 33 million other gods in Hinduism. Also I'm not big on the caste system.

What's that got to do with lying to children about the existence of gods? Are the non-believing parents supposed to check with you to see if you like an aspect of the proposed lie that they're about to tell their children? That seems...odd.

carlitos · 8th January 2020, 01:22 PM

Originally Posted by DuvalHMFIC

Is this true? I typically stay out of the religious threads, that's pretty cool!

I was one of the two. You'd have to search my posts in one of the continuation "evidence for why we know the writers of the new testament told the truth" (sic) threads.

ETA - on topic:
Actually, one of the contributing factors was when I caught myself telling a child how "when people are still talking about you and quoting you 2,000 years later, then maybe we can discuss how Jesus was wrong" or something like that. My skeptical brain knew that this was a fallacy, and DOCs threads were he first time I had applied skepticism to the New Testament since I had been a kid in Sunday School. So I don't believe in lying to children about God, because they might learn bad logic in the process, since religion only has apologetics to defend it.

EEEETTTTTTAAAAA - try this.

welshdean · 8th January 2020, 02:58 PM

Originally Posted by GrandMasterFox

YES! DOC is back! Best Threads Ever!

Oh boy how I missed this, comedy gold if I've ever seen one.

If I recall, your posts have indeed stood for themselves and resulted in at least 2 people that we know that dumped their religion and declared themselves Atheist.

Lol, I forgot about that...

Originally Posted by carlitos

I was one of the two. You'd have to search my posts in one of the continuation "evidence for why we know the writers of the new testament told the truth" (sic) threads.

ETA - on topic:
Actually, one of the contributing factors was when I caught myself telling a child how "when people are still talking about you and quoting you 2,000 years later, then maybe we can discuss how Jesus was wrong" or something like that. My skeptical brain knew that this was a fallacy, and DOCs threads were he first time I had applied skepticism to the New Testament since I had been a kid in Sunday School. So I don't believe in lying to children about God, because they might learn bad logic in the process, since religion only has apologetics to defend it.

EEEETTTTTTAAAAA - try this.

Those were the days, so much fun.

Thing is Doc, nothings changed. If the Pharoah turned up to contribute, it would almost seem like deja vu!

7th January 2020, 12:45 AM	#121
The Atheist The Grammar Tyrant Join Date: Jul 2006 Posts: 23,337	I glanced at the thread title and saw: The rapist says if you're an atheist you should lie to your kids about God. Makes as much sense either way.
	__________________ The point of equilibrium has passed; satire and current events are now indistinguishable.

7th January 2020, 04:26 AM	#122
welshdean BESTEST RUGBY TEAM IN THE NORTHEN HEMISPHERE Join Date: Jul 2002 Posts: 3,420	Originally Posted by Steve Originally Posted by welshdean Doc. What do you tell the kids when someones 'Uncle Ernie' dies? If it is an Uncle Ernie like in “Tommy” you invite the kids to join in the celebration. Is there any other 'Uncle Ernie'? My point being, if it behoves Doc to lie to a child about Auntie Doris, sitting on a cloud, being massaged by angels, then what if an absolute bastard like Townshends 'Ernie' dies? Would you, Doc, tell the same poor child that his uncle is having hot lava poured down his 'japs-eye' for all eternity? or some other painful punishment.
	__________________ "In science it often happens that scientists say, "You know that's a really good argument; my position is mistaken," and then they would actually change their minds and you never hear that old view from them again. They really do it. I cannot recall the last time something like that happened in politics or religion." Carl Sagan 1934 - 1996 RIP

7th January 2020, 05:24 AM	#123
Darat Lackey Administrator Join Date: Aug 2001 Location: South East, UK Posts: 89,345	Or if you want to follow what many of the Christian religions think: Parent: Uncle Ernie has died. KID: What does that mean? Parent:You'll never see him again. Kid: Really? Parent: Well not in this life, but as he died he gave his heart to Jesus so he is now in heaven. Kid: Heaven? Parent: Yes. It's where everyone that gives their heart to Jesus lives for every more. It's where everything is beuatiful, everyone is very happy and you'll be with Uncle Ernie again. Kid: When I'm in heaven will Uncle Ernie still come into my room every night and rape me? Parent: .... Yep lies are always so comforting.
	__________________ I wish I knew how to quit you

7th January 2020, 08:05 AM	#124
DOC Philosopher Join Date: Jan 2007 Posts: 7,959	Originally Posted by welshdean Is there any other 'Uncle Ernie'? My point being, if it behoves Doc to lie to a child about Auntie Doris, sitting on a cloud, being massaged by angels, then what if an absolute bastard like Townshends 'Ernie' dies? Would you, Doc, tell the same poor child that his uncle is having hot lava poured down his 'japs-eye' for all eternity? or some other painful punishment. Well, I'd probably tell the child that since Uncle Ernie did very bad things and chose not to ask for forgiveness from God, he will spend eternity away from God and heaven. It was Uncle Ernie's own choice not to be near God or be in heaven. Upon reading the below article, my actions above might be something the current pope would agree with: https://www.ncronline.org/news/opini...ancis-and-hell
DOC Philosopher Join Date: Jan 2007 Posts: 7,959

7th January 2020, 08:15 AM	#126
JoeMorgue Self Employed Remittance Man Join Date: Nov 2009 Location: Florida Posts: 22,136	Wow all of this just seems so infinitely more complicated then just not making up a God you then have to make up stuff to explain.
	__________________ - "Ernest Hemingway once wrote that the world is a fine place and worth fighting for. I agree with the second part." - Detective Sommerset - "Stupidity does not cancel out stupidity to yield genius. It breeds like a bucket-full of coked out hamsters." - The Oatmeal - "To the best of my knowledge the only thing philosophy has ever proven is that Descartes could think." - SMBC

7th January 2020, 08:08 AM	#125
RoboTimbo Hostile Nanobacon Join Date: Jul 2008 Posts: 30,587	Originally Posted by DOC Well, I'd probably tell the child that since Uncle Ernie did very bad things and chose not to ask for forgiveness from God, he will spend eternity away from God and heaven. It was Uncle Ernie's own choice not to be near God or be in heaven. You'd compound the lie of a god's existence with lies about the existence of make believe heaven and hell?

7th January 2020, 08:25 AM	#127
RoboTimbo Hostile Nanobacon Join Date: Jul 2008 Posts: 30,587	Here's a counterpoint in Psychology Today to that religious psychoanalyst: https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/b...lieving-in-god Quote: Komisar maintains that parents who aren’t religious should just, well... fake it. Pretend. Deceive. Lie. No, no, no, and no. and Quote: Recent research has found that children raised in non-religious homes do just fine. In fact, many do better than fine, exhibiting a plethora of positive moral traits that are sometimes more pronounced than children raised in religious homes. Bolding mine. So, while I don't usually consider opinions to be correct or incorrect, Komisar's opinion is wrong. I'll just leave the lying and moral bankruptcy to the religious.

7th January 2020, 08:59 AM	#128
sackett Philosopher Join Date: Aug 2003 Location: Detroit Posts: 5,829	Don't let the atheists get to you, DOC. Believers lie to themselves, so why shouldn't they lie to their kids, right?
	__________________ Fill the seats of justice with good men; not so absolute in goodness as to forget what human frailty is. -- Thomas Jefferson What region of the earth is not filled with our calamities? -- Virgil

7th January 2020, 09:04 AM	#129
DOC Philosopher Join Date: Jan 2007 Posts: 7,959	Originally Posted by RoboTimbo Here's a counterpoint in Psychology Today to that religious psychoanalyst: https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/b...lieving-in-god The title of this thread contains the wording "if you're an atheist". If the author (Phil Zuckerman) of the above article is an atheist he would still be acting untruthful by saying such things to the child as "maybe we float in the clouds" or "maybe we return as another life-form" after death. That sounds more like an agnostic than a true atheist.
DOC Philosopher Join Date: Jan 2007 Posts: 7,959	Last edited by DOC; 7th January 2020 at 09:11 AM.

7th January 2020, 09:06 AM	#130
JoeMorgue Self Employed Remittance Man Join Date: Nov 2009 Location: Florida Posts: 22,136	Originally Posted by DOC The title of this thread contains the wording "if you're an atheist". If the author of the above article is an atheist he would still be acting untruthful by saying such things to the child as "maybe we float in the clouds" or "maybe we return as another life-form". That sounds more like an agnostic then a true atheist. Oh goodie that meaningless hairsplit. Yes let's have a 50 page meaningless hijack about that. Reality doesn't change based on personal opinions. If you honestly believe the moon is made of green cheese you shouldn't "also teach your child that just to hedge your bets." "Belief" is just meaningless a euphemism for disinformation.
	__________________ - "Ernest Hemingway once wrote that the world is a fine place and worth fighting for. I agree with the second part." - Detective Sommerset - "Stupidity does not cancel out stupidity to yield genius. It breeds like a bucket-full of coked out hamsters." - The Oatmeal - "To the best of my knowledge the only thing philosophy has ever proven is that Descartes could think." - SMBC

7th January 2020, 09:09 AM	#131
RoboTimbo Hostile Nanobacon Join Date: Jul 2008 Posts: 30,587	Originally Posted by DOC The title of this thread contains the wording "if you're an atheist". If the author of the above article is an atheist he would still be acting untruthful by saying such things to the child as "maybe we float in the clouds" or "maybe we return as another life-form". That sounds more like an agnostic then a true atheist. I suspect the author of the above article was only talking to atheists as he knows that theists will continue to lie to their children.

7th January 2020, 09:27 AM	#132
I Am The Scum Illuminator Join Date: Mar 2010 Posts: 4,204	Originally Posted by Thermal I'm on the edge of my seat to see that robust evidence that checks notes telling your kids about Santa has the potential to harm trust, et al. Groundbreaking research, I'm sure. Otherwise, that which is asserted with out evidence... Yeah, got it the first time. Since the theme is what creates trust issues, to wit: I assert, with the same authority as you do, that taking Santa away from your kids has the potential to harm trust. Respectfully, I don't think you're understanding my point at all. 1. If a child goes many years being told by their parents that Santa is real, and then one day the child learns that Santa is not real, they might feel as though they've been lied to. That harms trust. 2. Likewise, if that same child is told from day 1 that Santa is not real (but it's still fun to pretend), there is no lie, and no harm to trust can result. Do you disagree with either of the above statements?

7th January 2020, 09:56 AM	#133
Dave Rogers Bandaged ice that stampedes inexpensively through a scribbled morning waving necessary ankles Join Date: Jan 2007 Location: Cair Paravel, according to XKCD Posts: 30,129	Originally Posted by DOC The title of this thread contains the wording "if you're an atheist". If the author (Phil Zuckerman) of the above article is an atheist he would still be acting untruthful by saying such things to the child as "maybe we float in the clouds" or "maybe we return as another life-form" after death. That sounds more like an agnostic than a true atheist. So what? You have provided one (1) professional opinion that people should lie to their children about God, and you've been provided with one (1) equally credible professional opinion that they shouldn't. At the moment, neither side has the preponderance of evidence, so you should stop acting as though your side of the argument is proven when it isn't. Dave
	__________________ Inspiring discussion of Sharknado is not a good sign for the audience expectations of your new high-concept SF movie sequel. - Myriad

7th January 2020, 10:08 AM	#134
autumn1971 Illuminator Join Date: Jan 2007 Posts: 3,095	Once a child can formulate the question they can, at least in a hazy abstract way, conceive of multiple answers. You tell them the truth in a nice way that is comprehensible to them. You don’t need to be the straw man atheist ******* delighting in ruining children’s imagination. Just don’t lie. The truth, as near as we know it, is the correct answer to the question.
autumn1971 Illuminator Join Date: Jan 2007 Posts: 3,095	__________________ 'A knave; a rascal; an eater of broken meats; a base, proud, shallow, beggardly, three-suited, hundred-pound, filthy, worsted-stocking knave; a lily-livered, action-taking knave, a whoreson, glass-gazing, superservicable, finical rogue;... the son and heir of a mongral bitch: one whom I will beat into clamorous whining, if thou deniest the least syllable of thy addition."' -The Bard

7th January 2020, 10:23 AM	#135
Dave Rogers Bandaged ice that stampedes inexpensively through a scribbled morning waving necessary ankles Join Date: Jan 2007 Location: Cair Paravel, according to XKCD Posts: 30,129	Originally Posted by autumn1971 You don’t need to be the straw man atheist ******* delighting in ruining children’s imagination. Just don’t lie. And, of course, saying "I don't know what happens to people after they die" is not a lie. I'm pretty certain the answer is that the person doesn't exist any more, but I couldn't put my hand on my heart and swear that I'm absolutely 100% certain of that. Even though I'm as strong-case an atheist as anyone I've ever encountered, I'd be stupid if I wasn't prepared to revise my understanding in the light of new evidence. Oh, and "agnostic" and "atheist" are not mutually exclusive; they refer to different axes, of what we believe and of our confidence in those beliefs. Dave
	__________________ Inspiring discussion of Sharknado is not a good sign for the audience expectations of your new high-concept SF movie sequel. - Myriad

7th January 2020, 03:38 PM	#136
bruto Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Jun 2005 Location: Way way north of Diddy Wah Diddy Posts: 25,071	Originally Posted by Thermal I'm on the edge of my seat to see that robust evidence that checks notes telling your kids about Santa has the potential to harm trust, et al. Groundbreaking research, I'm sure. Otherwise, that which is asserted with out evidence... Yeah, got it the first time. Since the theme is what creates trust issues, to wit: I assert, with the same authority as you do, that taking Santa away from your kids has the potential to harm trust. Where did the Santa we're taking away come from? I agree that if your kid has decided on their (sic) own to believe in Santa it seems reasonable to let it slide, or at least not to drop the hammer. But if nobody gives them (sic) Santa, then there's nothing to take away. And if a Santa story from elsewhere is contrary to one's principles, then why should it be reinforced? Must we go along with anything if the kid picks it up on the street? When our devout Catholic neighbors told me at five that I'd go to Hell for not believing, my parents did not consider it a breach of trust to tell me that it was a matter of faith, not fact. Santa is a little more benign than that, but I think if one treats him as make believe, or just kind of sidesteps him, kids get the idea quickly enough. If you commit to telling your kids about Santa, then I would guess you're committed to the story, but there's no law that says one has to, any more than we must tell them about the Easter Bunny or the Flying Spaghetti Monster or the four horsemen of the apocalypse.
	__________________ I love this world, but not for its answers. (Mary Oliver) Quand il dit "cuic" le moineau croit tout dire. (When he's tweeted the sparrow thinks he's said it all. (Jules Renard)

7th January 2020, 05:29 PM	#137
DOC Philosopher Join Date: Jan 2007 Posts: 7,959	Well I'm not going to talk anymore about Santa Claus but he exists if we are to believe the most reprinted newspaper editorial in history: https://www.newseum.org/exhibits/onl...a-santa-claus/
DOC Philosopher Join Date: Jan 2007 Posts: 7,959

7th January 2020, 06:01 PM	#138
arthwollipot Observer of Phenomena Pronouns: he/him Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Location, Location Posts: 65,199	In the end, there's just no need to lie to children. I never lied to my child, and he grew up fine. If you lie to a child, one day you're going to have to explain to them why you lied.
	__________________ Self-described nerd. My mom told me she tries never to make fun of people for not knowing something. - Randall Munroe

7th January 2020, 06:27 PM	#139
RoboTimbo Hostile Nanobacon Join Date: Jul 2008 Posts: 30,587	Originally Posted by DOC Well I'm not going to talk anymore about Santa Claus but he exists if we are to believe the most reprinted newspaper editorial in history: https://www.newseum.org/exhibits/onl...a-santa-claus/ Ok, let's talk about Shiva, Vishnu and Krishna then. DOC, do you suggest we tell our children that they exist since there is so much evidence for them?

7th January 2020, 06:30 PM	#140
DuvalHMFIC Graduate Poster Join Date: Jun 2012 Location: Jacksonville, FL Posts: 1,465	To each his own I suppose. I'm nearly 40 and still have very fun, fond memories of awaiting Santa, the Easter Bunny, the Tooth Fairy, etc. I've raised children in a similar fashion and I know they enjoyed it, too. I never once harbored any ill-will towards my parents. I was aware enough to realize it was for fun.
	__________________ Ben is sick ladies and gentlemen, thats right, Ben is sick.

7th January 2020, 06:37 PM	#141
arthwollipot Observer of Phenomena Pronouns: he/him Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Location, Location Posts: 65,199	Originally Posted by DuvalHMFIC To each his own I suppose. I'm nearly 40 and still have very fun, fond memories of awaiting Santa, the Easter Bunny, the Tooth Fairy, etc. I've raised children in a similar fashion and I know they enjoyed it, too. I never once harbored any ill-will towards my parents. I was aware enough to realize it was for fun. And that's the difference between God and Santa. Everyone knows Santa is just for fun. God is serious. Your very soul is at stake.
	__________________ Self-described nerd. My mom told me she tries never to make fun of people for not knowing something. - Randall Munroe

8th January 2020, 01:43 AM	#142
bluesjnr Professional Nemesis for Hire Join Date: Jun 2009 Location: Not where I should be. Posts: 7,307	Originally Posted by arthwollipot Mine was "Uncle Ernie committed suicide last night". Ok.
	__________________ Thanks for bringing the list of [your] cards to our attention, we will try to be more vigilant in future - Zooterkin If it helps, I'm in favor of suspending you, too - Loss Leader

8th January 2020, 03:30 AM	#143
dann Philosopher Join Date: Feb 2004 Posts: 9,226	Originally Posted by arthwollipot And that's the difference between God and Santa. Everyone knows Santa is just for fun. God is serious. Your very soul is at stake. Exactly! And children are actually supposed to debunk the Santa lie at some point. They used to have special schools for those who don't. The experience of finding out that Santa is a lie may even make them ask themselves (and others): What else that I've been told isn't true? Santa is very educational in that respect: Christians could learn a lot from him!
dann Philosopher Join Date: Feb 2004 Posts: 9,226	__________________ /dann "Stupidity renders itself invisible by assuming very large proportions. Completely unreasonable claims are irrefutable. Ni-en-leh pointed out that a philosopher might get into trouble by claiming that two times two makes five, but he does not risk much by claiming that two times two makes shoe polish." B. Brecht "The abolition of religion as the illusory happiness of the people is required for their real happiness. The demand to give up the illusion about its condition is the demand to give up a condition which needs illusions." K. Marx Last edited by dann; 8th January 2020 at 03:33 AM.

8th January 2020, 04:57 AM	#144
DOC Philosopher Join Date: Jan 2007 Posts: 7,959	Originally Posted by RoboTimbo Ok, let's talk about Shiva, Vishnu and Krishna then. DOC, do you suggest we tell our children that they exist since there is so much evidence for them? No, because a child might later get confused by the 33 million other gods in Hinduism. Also I'm not big on the caste system.
DOC Philosopher Join Date: Jan 2007 Posts: 7,959

8th January 2020, 05:16 AM	#145
Dave Rogers Bandaged ice that stampedes inexpensively through a scribbled morning waving necessary ankles Join Date: Jan 2007 Location: Cair Paravel, according to XKCD Posts: 30,129	Originally Posted by DOC No, because a child might later get confused by the 33 million other gods in Hinduism. What's your evidence for this? Given the rather large Hindu population on the Indian sub-continent, one might think it was easy to find if it existed. Dave
	__________________ Inspiring discussion of Sharknado is not a good sign for the audience expectations of your new high-concept SF movie sequel. - Myriad

8th January 2020, 05:51 AM	#146
GrandMasterFox Master Poster Join Date: Oct 2009 Posts: 2,292	YES! DOC is back! Best Threads Ever! Oh boy how I missed this, comedy gold if I've ever seen one. Originally Posted by DOC Argument by Assertion. Let the posts stand for themselves without offering up a wide sweeping opinion. If I recall, your posts have indeed stood for themselves and resulted in at least 2 people that we know that dumped their religion and declared themselves Atheist.

8th January 2020, 06:40 AM	#147
RoboTimbo Hostile Nanobacon Join Date: Jul 2008 Posts: 30,587	Originally Posted by DOC No, because a child might later get confused by the 33 million other gods in Hinduism. Why would they get confused by 33 million other gods? There is such a tremendous amount of evidence for Vishnu, Krishna and Shiva that I think those would be the easiest to tell my children about. Quote: Also I'm not big on the caste system. But you're ok with the horrors of the Christian Bible and its cults?

8th January 2020, 06:49 AM	#148
JoeMorgue Self Employed Remittance Man Join Date: Nov 2009 Location: Florida Posts: 22,136	I so we are firmly in the "My God makes perfect sense and clarifies things for Children, other Gods are confusing and would give the little tykes unrecoverable existential criseses" and "God and Santa are different because God is superserious I'm for realizes guys" Santa is lot more serious for children then God is to adults who aren't seen as mentally ill.
	__________________ - "Ernest Hemingway once wrote that the world is a fine place and worth fighting for. I agree with the second part." - Detective Sommerset - "Stupidity does not cancel out stupidity to yield genius. It breeds like a bucket-full of coked out hamsters." - The Oatmeal - "To the best of my knowledge the only thing philosophy has ever proven is that Descartes could think." - SMBC

8th January 2020, 06:52 AM	#149
DuvalHMFIC Graduate Poster Join Date: Jun 2012 Location: Jacksonville, FL Posts: 1,465	Originally Posted by GrandMasterFox If I recall, your posts have indeed stood for themselves and resulted in at least 2 people that we know that dumped their religion and declared themselves Atheist. Is this true? I typically stay out of the religious threads, that's pretty cool!
	__________________ Ben is sick ladies and gentlemen, thats right, Ben is sick.

8th January 2020, 08:29 AM	#150
GrandMasterFox Master Poster Join Date: Oct 2009 Posts: 2,292	Originally Posted by DuvalHMFIC Is this true? I typically stay out of the religious threads, that's pretty cool! Indeed. I don't want to get this thread out of topic. But the gist is that indeed, DOC has attempted to give us the "evidence" of why Christianity is true and done such a great job over a billion pages that 2 users said it helped them see how it got blasted and how there really is nothing to show for it or he would have done that by the millionth page. Which is why it's great he's back! Hopefully bigger and better than ever! We need more people on our side

8th January 2020, 09:26 AM	#151
catsmate No longer the 1 Join Date: Apr 2007 Posts: 21,513	Originally Posted by Thermal I'm on the edge of my seat to see that robust evidence that checks notes telling your kids about Santa has the potential to harm trust, et al. Groundbreaking research, I'm sure. Otherwise, that which is asserted with out evidence... Yeah, got it the first time. Since the theme is what creates trust issues, to wit: I assert, with the same authority as you do, that taking Santa away from your kids has the potential to harm trust. Why don't you go and look at the research that shows that lying to children (about god, santa and similar myths) causes them to lie more in turn.
	__________________ As human right is always something given, it always in reality reduces to the right which men give, "concede," to each other. If the right to existence is conceded to new-born children, then they have the right; if it is not conceded to them, as was the case among the Spartans and ancient Romans, then they do not have it. For only society can give or concede it to them; they themselves cannot take it, or give it to themselves.

8th January 2020, 09:35 AM	#152
DOC Philosopher Join Date: Jan 2007 Posts: 7,959	Originally Posted by GrandMasterFox ...If I recall, your posts have indeed stood for themselves and resulted in at least 2 people that we know that dumped their religion and declared themselves Atheist. Originally Posted by DuvalHMFIC Is this true? I typically stay out of the religious threads, that's pretty cool! More than likely it's not true. Anybody with a grudge, or who is a troll, can say anything on these threads. And out of my nearly 8000 posts, there was only one poster who made that claim and when I asked for them to give a post that allegedly caused this they didn't answer. Any anonymous person can say anything for whatever reason, but not any person can give a reasoned explanation when asked.
DOC Philosopher Join Date: Jan 2007 Posts: 7,959	Last edited by DOC; 8th January 2020 at 09:41 AM.

8th January 2020, 09:48 AM	#153
DOC Philosopher Join Date: Jan 2007 Posts: 7,959	Originally Posted by GrandMasterFox Indeed. Actually I can only remember one in the several years I've made posts. Why don't you give the posts where this happened. If you can't you should retract the statement.
DOC Philosopher Join Date: Jan 2007 Posts: 7,959

8th January 2020, 09:57 AM	#154
JoeMorgue Self Employed Remittance Man Join Date: Nov 2009 Location: Florida Posts: 22,136	Originally Posted by DOC Actually I can only remember one in the several years I've made posts. Why don't you give the posts where this happened. If you can't you should retract the statement. Oh no any evidence that you are right is a hijack, remember?
	__________________ - "Ernest Hemingway once wrote that the world is a fine place and worth fighting for. I agree with the second part." - Detective Sommerset - "Stupidity does not cancel out stupidity to yield genius. It breeds like a bucket-full of coked out hamsters." - The Oatmeal - "To the best of my knowledge the only thing philosophy has ever proven is that Descartes could think." - SMBC

8th January 2020, 10:27 AM	#155
Thermal Philosopher Join Date: Aug 2016 Location: God's own NJ USA Posts: 9,359	Originally Posted by catsmate Why don't you go and look at the research that shows that lying to children (about god, santa and similar myths) causes them to lie more in turn. Because it was not my unevidenced assertion. Need me to explain 'burden of proof' to you?
	__________________ Whenever you find yourself on the side of the majority, it is time to pause and reflect -Mark Twain Truth is not what you want it to be; it is what it is, and you must bend to its power or live a lie -Miyamoto Musashi