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Tags atheism , belief in god , Leonardo Blair , mental health issues

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Old 7th January 2020, 12:45 AM   #121
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I glanced at the thread title and saw: The rapist says if you're an atheist you should lie to your kids about God.

Makes as much sense either way.
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Old 7th January 2020, 04:26 AM   #122
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Originally Posted by Steve View Post
Originally Posted by welshdean View Post
Doc.
What do you tell the kids when someones 'Uncle Ernie' dies?
If it is an Uncle Ernie like in “Tommy” you invite the kids to join in the celebration.
Is there any other 'Uncle Ernie'?
My point being, if it behoves Doc to lie to a child about Auntie Doris, sitting on a cloud, being massaged by angels, then what if an absolute bastard like Townshends 'Ernie' dies? Would you, Doc, tell the same poor child that his uncle is having hot lava poured down his 'japs-eye' for all eternity*?


*or some other painful punishment.
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Old 7th January 2020, 05:24 AM   #123
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Or if you want to follow what many of the Christian religions think:

Parent: Uncle Ernie has died.
KID: What does that mean?
Parent:You'll never see him again.
Kid: Really?
Parent: Well not in this life, but as he died he gave his heart to Jesus so he is now in heaven.
Kid: Heaven?
Parent: Yes. It's where everyone that gives their heart to Jesus lives for every more. It's where everything is beuatiful, everyone is very happy and you'll be with Uncle Ernie again.
Kid: When I'm in heaven will Uncle Ernie still come into my room every night and rape me?
Parent: ....

Yep lies are always so comforting.
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Old 7th January 2020, 08:05 AM   #124
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Originally Posted by welshdean View Post
Is there any other 'Uncle Ernie'?
My point being, if it behoves Doc to lie to a child about Auntie Doris, sitting on a cloud, being massaged by angels, then what if an absolute bastard like Townshends 'Ernie' dies? Would you, Doc, tell the same poor child that his uncle is having hot lava poured down his 'japs-eye' for all eternity*?


*or some other painful punishment.
Well, I'd probably tell the child that since Uncle Ernie did very bad things and chose not to ask for forgiveness from God, he will spend eternity away from God and heaven. It was Uncle Ernie's own choice not to be near God or be in heaven.

Upon reading the below article, my actions above might be something the current pope would agree with:

https://www.ncronline.org/news/opini...ancis-and-hell
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Old 7th January 2020, 08:08 AM   #125
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Originally Posted by DOC View Post
Well, I'd probably tell the child that since Uncle Ernie did very bad things and chose not to ask for forgiveness from God, he will spend eternity away from God and heaven. It was Uncle Ernie's own choice not to be near God or be in heaven.
You'd compound the lie of a god's existence with lies about the existence of make believe heaven and hell?
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Old 7th January 2020, 08:15 AM   #126
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Wow all of this just seems so infinitely more complicated then just not making up a God you then have to make up stuff to explain.
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Old 7th January 2020, 08:25 AM   #127
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Here's a counterpoint in Psychology Today to that religious psychoanalyst: https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/b...lieving-in-god

Quote:
Komisar maintains that parents who aren’t religious should just, well... fake it. Pretend. Deceive. Lie.

No, no, no, and no.
and

Quote:
Recent research has found that children raised in non-religious homes do just fine. In fact, many do better than fine, exhibiting a plethora of positive moral traits that are sometimes more pronounced than children raised in religious homes.
Bolding mine.

So, while I don't usually consider opinions to be correct or incorrect, Komisar's opinion is wrong.

I'll just leave the lying and moral bankruptcy to the religious.
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Old 7th January 2020, 08:59 AM   #128
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Don't let the atheists get to you, DOC. Believers lie to themselves, so why shouldn't they lie to their kids, right?
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Old 7th January 2020, 09:04 AM   #129
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Originally Posted by RoboTimbo View Post
Here's a counterpoint in Psychology Today to that religious psychoanalyst: https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/b...lieving-in-god
The title of this thread contains the wording "if you're an atheist". If the author (Phil Zuckerman) of the above article is an atheist he would still be acting untruthful by saying such things to the child as "maybe we float in the clouds" or "maybe we return as another life-form" after death. That sounds more like an agnostic than a true atheist.

Last edited by DOC; 7th January 2020 at 09:11 AM.
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Old 7th January 2020, 09:06 AM   #130
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Originally Posted by DOC View Post
The title of this thread contains the wording "if you're an atheist". If the author of the above article is an atheist he would still be acting untruthful by saying such things to the child as "maybe we float in the clouds" or "maybe we return as another life-form". That sounds more like an agnostic then a true atheist.
Oh goodie that meaningless hairsplit. Yes let's have a 50 page meaningless hijack about that.

Reality doesn't change based on personal opinions. If you honestly believe the moon is made of green cheese you shouldn't "also teach your child that just to hedge your bets."

"Belief" is just meaningless a euphemism for disinformation.
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Old 7th January 2020, 09:09 AM   #131
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Originally Posted by DOC View Post
The title of this thread contains the wording "if you're an atheist". If the author of the above article is an atheist he would still be acting untruthful by saying such things to the child as "maybe we float in the clouds" or "maybe we return as another life-form". That sounds more like an agnostic then a true atheist.
I suspect the author of the above article was only talking to atheists as he knows that theists will continue to lie to their children.
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Old 7th January 2020, 09:27 AM   #132
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Originally Posted by Thermal View Post
I'm on the edge of my seat to see that robust evidence that *checks notes* telling your kids about Santa has the potential to harm trust, et al. Groundbreaking research, I'm sure. Otherwise, that which is asserted with out evidence...



Yeah, got it the first time. Since the theme is what creates trust issues, to wit: I assert, with the same authority as you do, that taking Santa away from your kids has the potential to harm trust.
Respectfully, I don't think you're understanding my point at all.

1. If a child goes many years being told by their parents that Santa is real, and then one day the child learns that Santa is not real, they might feel as though they've been lied to. That harms trust.

2. Likewise, if that same child is told from day 1 that Santa is not real (but it's still fun to pretend), there is no lie, and no harm to trust can result.

Do you disagree with either of the above statements?
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Old 7th January 2020, 09:56 AM   #133
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Originally Posted by DOC View Post
The title of this thread contains the wording "if you're an atheist". If the author (Phil Zuckerman) of the above article is an atheist he would still be acting untruthful by saying such things to the child as "maybe we float in the clouds" or "maybe we return as another life-form" after death. That sounds more like an agnostic than a true atheist.
So what? You have provided one (1) professional opinion that people should lie to their children about God, and you've been provided with one (1) equally credible professional opinion that they shouldn't. At the moment, neither side has the preponderance of evidence, so you should stop acting as though your side of the argument is proven when it isn't.

Dave
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Old 7th January 2020, 10:08 AM   #134
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Once a child can formulate the question they can, at least in a hazy abstract way, conceive of multiple answers.

You tell them the truth in a nice way that is comprehensible to them.

You don’t need to be the straw man atheist ******* delighting in ruining children’s imagination. Just don’t lie.

The truth, as near as we know it, is the correct answer to the question.
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Old 7th January 2020, 10:23 AM   #135
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Originally Posted by autumn1971 View Post
You don’t need to be the straw man atheist ******* delighting in ruining children’s imagination. Just don’t lie.
And, of course, saying "I don't know what happens to people after they die" is not a lie. I'm pretty certain the answer is that the person doesn't exist any more, but I couldn't put my hand on my heart and swear that I'm absolutely 100% certain of that. Even though I'm as strong-case an atheist as anyone I've ever encountered, I'd be stupid if I wasn't prepared to revise my understanding in the light of new evidence.

Oh, and "agnostic" and "atheist" are not mutually exclusive; they refer to different axes, of what we believe and of our confidence in those beliefs.

Dave
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Old 7th January 2020, 03:38 PM   #136
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Originally Posted by Thermal View Post
I'm on the edge of my seat to see that robust evidence that *checks notes* telling your kids about Santa has the potential to harm trust, et al. Groundbreaking research, I'm sure. Otherwise, that which is asserted with out evidence...



Yeah, got it the first time. Since the theme is what creates trust issues, to wit: I assert, with the same authority as you do, that taking Santa away from your kids has the potential to harm trust.
Where did the Santa we're taking away come from? I agree that if your kid has decided on their (sic) own to believe in Santa it seems reasonable to let it slide, or at least not to drop the hammer. But if nobody gives them (sic) Santa, then there's nothing to take away. And if a Santa story from elsewhere is contrary to one's principles, then why should it be reinforced? Must we go along with anything if the kid picks it up on the street? When our devout Catholic neighbors told me at five that I'd go to Hell for not believing, my parents did not consider it a breach of trust to tell me that it was a matter of faith, not fact. Santa is a little more benign than that, but I think if one treats him as make believe, or just kind of sidesteps him, kids get the idea quickly enough.

If you commit to telling your kids about Santa, then I would guess you're committed to the story, but there's no law that says one has to, any more than we must tell them about the Easter Bunny or the Flying Spaghetti Monster or the four horsemen of the apocalypse.
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Old 7th January 2020, 05:29 PM   #137
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Well I'm not going to talk anymore about Santa Claus but he exists if we are to believe the most reprinted newspaper editorial in history:

https://www.newseum.org/exhibits/onl...a-santa-claus/
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Old 7th January 2020, 06:01 PM   #138
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In the end, there's just no need to lie to children. I never lied to my child, and he grew up fine. If you lie to a child, one day you're going to have to explain to them why you lied.
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Old 7th January 2020, 06:27 PM   #139
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Originally Posted by DOC View Post
Well I'm not going to talk anymore about Santa Claus but he exists if we are to believe the most reprinted newspaper editorial in history:

https://www.newseum.org/exhibits/onl...a-santa-claus/
Ok, let's talk about Shiva, Vishnu and Krishna then. DOC, do you suggest we tell our children that they exist since there is so much evidence for them?
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Old 7th January 2020, 06:30 PM   #140
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To each his own I suppose. I'm nearly 40 and still have very fun, fond memories of awaiting Santa, the Easter Bunny, the Tooth Fairy, etc. I've raised children in a similar fashion and I know they enjoyed it, too. I never once harbored any ill-will towards my parents. I was aware enough to realize it was for fun.
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Old 7th January 2020, 06:37 PM   #141
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Originally Posted by DuvalHMFIC View Post
To each his own I suppose. I'm nearly 40 and still have very fun, fond memories of awaiting Santa, the Easter Bunny, the Tooth Fairy, etc. I've raised children in a similar fashion and I know they enjoyed it, too. I never once harbored any ill-will towards my parents. I was aware enough to realize it was for fun.
And that's the difference between God and Santa. Everyone knows Santa is just for fun. God is serious. Your very soul is at stake.
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Old 8th January 2020, 01:43 AM   #142
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Originally Posted by arthwollipot View Post
Mine was "Uncle Ernie committed suicide last night".
Ok.
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Old 8th January 2020, 03:30 AM   #143
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Originally Posted by arthwollipot View Post
And that's the difference between God and Santa. Everyone knows Santa is just for fun. God is serious. Your very soul is at stake.

Exactly! And children are actually supposed to debunk the Santa lie at some point. They used to have special schools for those who don't.
The experience of finding out that Santa is a lie may even make them ask themselves (and others): What else that I've been told isn't true?
Santa is very educational in that respect: Christians could learn a lot from him!
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Old 8th January 2020, 04:57 AM   #144
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Originally Posted by RoboTimbo View Post
Ok, let's talk about Shiva, Vishnu and Krishna then. DOC, do you suggest we tell our children that they exist since there is so much evidence for them?
No, because a child might later get confused by the 33 million other gods in Hinduism. Also I'm not big on the caste system.
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Old 8th January 2020, 05:16 AM   #145
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Originally Posted by DOC View Post
No, because a child might later get confused by the 33 million other gods in Hinduism.
What's your evidence for this? Given the rather large Hindu population on the Indian sub-continent, one might think it was easy to find if it existed.

Dave
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Old 8th January 2020, 05:51 AM   #146
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YES! DOC is back! Best Threads Ever!

Oh boy how I missed this, comedy gold if I've ever seen one.

Originally Posted by DOC View Post
Argument by Assertion. Let the posts stand for themselves without offering up a wide sweeping opinion.
If I recall, your posts have indeed stood for themselves and resulted in at least 2 people that we know that dumped their religion and declared themselves Atheist.
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Old 8th January 2020, 06:40 AM   #147
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Originally Posted by DOC View Post
No, because a child might later get confused by the 33 million other gods in Hinduism.
Why would they get confused by 33 million other gods? There is such a tremendous amount of evidence for Vishnu, Krishna and Shiva that I think those would be the easiest to tell my children about.

Quote:
Also I'm not big on the caste system.
But you're ok with the horrors of the Christian Bible and its cults?
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Old 8th January 2020, 06:49 AM   #148
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I so we are firmly in the "My God makes perfect sense and clarifies things for Children, other Gods are confusing and would give the little tykes unrecoverable existential criseses" and "God and Santa are different because God is superserious I'm for realizes guys"

Santa is lot more serious for children then God is to adults who aren't seen as mentally ill.
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Old 8th January 2020, 06:52 AM   #149
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Originally Posted by GrandMasterFox View Post
If I recall, your posts have indeed stood for themselves and resulted in at least 2 people that we know that dumped their religion and declared themselves Atheist.
Is this true? I typically stay out of the religious threads, that's pretty cool!
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Old 8th January 2020, 08:29 AM   #150
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Originally Posted by DuvalHMFIC View Post
Is this true? I typically stay out of the religious threads, that's pretty cool!
Indeed. I don't want to get this thread out of topic.
But the gist is that indeed, DOC has attempted to give us the "evidence" of why Christianity is true and done such a great job over a billion pages that 2 users said it helped them see how it got blasted and how there really is nothing to show for it or he would have done that by the millionth page.

Which is why it's great he's back! Hopefully bigger and better than ever!
We need more people on our side
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Old 8th January 2020, 09:26 AM   #151
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Originally Posted by Thermal View Post
I'm on the edge of my seat to see that robust evidence that *checks notes* telling your kids about Santa has the potential to harm trust, et al. Groundbreaking research, I'm sure. Otherwise, that which is asserted with out evidence...



Yeah, got it the first time. Since the theme is what creates trust issues, to wit: I assert, with the same authority as you do, that taking Santa away from your kids has the potential to harm trust.
Why don't you go and look at the research that shows that lying to children (about god, santa and similar myths) causes them to lie more in turn.
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Old 8th January 2020, 09:35 AM   #152
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Originally Posted by GrandMasterFox View Post
...If I recall, your posts have indeed stood for themselves and resulted in at least 2 people that we know that dumped their religion and declared themselves Atheist.
Originally Posted by DuvalHMFIC View Post
Is this true? I typically stay out of the religious threads, that's pretty cool!
More than likely it's not true. Anybody with a grudge, or who is a troll, can say anything on these threads. And out of my nearly 8000 posts, there was only one poster who made that claim and when I asked for them to give a post that allegedly caused this they didn't answer. Any anonymous person can say anything for whatever reason, but not any person can give a reasoned explanation when asked.

Last edited by DOC; 8th January 2020 at 09:41 AM.
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Old 8th January 2020, 09:48 AM   #153
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Originally Posted by GrandMasterFox View Post
Indeed.
Actually I can only remember one in the several years I've made posts. Why don't you give the posts where this happened. If you can't you should retract the statement.
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Old 8th January 2020, 09:57 AM   #154
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Originally Posted by DOC View Post
Actually I can only remember one in the several years I've made posts. Why don't you give the posts where this happened. If you can't you should retract the statement.
Oh no any evidence that you are right is a hijack, remember?
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Old 8th January 2020, 10:27 AM   #155
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Originally Posted by catsmate View Post
Why don't you go and look at the research that shows that lying to children (about god, santa and similar myths) causes them to lie more in turn.
Because it was not my unevidenced assertion. Need me to explain 'burden of proof' to you?
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Old 8th January 2020, 10:40 AM   #156
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Originally Posted by DOC View Post
No, because a child might later get confused by the 33 million other gods in Hinduism. Also I'm not big on the caste system.
But the question is not what you like or don't like, nor what might confuse you. Hindu children get Hindu religion. If you can provide evidence that this causes them confusion that some other religion would assuage, there's plenty of room left in this thread for you to provide some good evidence.
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Old 8th January 2020, 10:40 AM   #157
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DOC, you didn't answer this:

Originally Posted by RoboTimbo View Post
Why would they get confused by 33 million other gods? There is such a tremendous amount of evidence for Vishnu, Krishna and Shiva that I think those would be the easiest to tell my children about.


But you're ok with the horrors of the Christian Bible and its cults?
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Old 8th January 2020, 10:45 AM   #158
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Originally Posted by DOC View Post
No, because a child might later get confused by the 33 million other gods in Hinduism. Also I'm not big on the caste system.
What's that got to do with lying to children about the existence of gods? Are the non-believing parents supposed to check with you to see if you like an aspect of the proposed lie that they're about to tell their children? That seems...odd.
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Old 8th January 2020, 01:22 PM   #159
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Originally Posted by DuvalHMFIC View Post
Is this true? I typically stay out of the religious threads, that's pretty cool!
I was one of the two. You'd have to search my posts in one of the continuation "evidence for why we know the writers of the new testament told the truth" (sic) threads.


ETA - on topic:
Actually, one of the contributing factors was when I caught myself telling a child how "when people are still talking about you and quoting you 2,000 years later, then maybe we can discuss how Jesus was wrong" or something like that. My skeptical brain knew that this was a fallacy, and DOCs threads were he first time I had applied skepticism to the New Testament since I had been a kid in Sunday School. So I don't believe in lying to children about God, because they might learn bad logic in the process, since religion only has apologetics to defend it.


EEEETTTTTTAAAAA - try this.

Last edited by carlitos; 8th January 2020 at 02:01 PM.
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Old 8th January 2020, 02:58 PM   #160
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Originally Posted by GrandMasterFox View Post
YES! DOC is back! Best Threads Ever!

Oh boy how I missed this, comedy gold if I've ever seen one.



If I recall, your posts have indeed stood for themselves and resulted in at least 2 people that we know that dumped their religion and declared themselves Atheist.
Lol, I forgot about that...


Originally Posted by carlitos View Post
I was one of the two. You'd have to search my posts in one of the continuation "evidence for why we know the writers of the new testament told the truth" (sic) threads.


ETA - on topic:
Actually, one of the contributing factors was when I caught myself telling a child how "when people are still talking about you and quoting you 2,000 years later, then maybe we can discuss how Jesus was wrong" or something like that. My skeptical brain knew that this was a fallacy, and DOCs threads were he first time I had applied skepticism to the New Testament since I had been a kid in Sunday School. So I don't believe in lying to children about God, because they might learn bad logic in the process, since religion only has apologetics to defend it.


EEEETTTTTTAAAAA - try this.

Those were the days, so much fun.


Thing is Doc, nothings changed. If the Pharoah turned up to contribute, it would almost seem like deja vu!
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