Sovereign Citizen Nonsense

carlitos · 9th January 2020, 12:19 PM

Other than Rob Menard, we don't have a catch-all thread for what these cats are up to. Here's one.

The Crazy Case of Ex-NFL Player’s Pageant-Crashing Lackeys

Quote:

DISORDER IN THE COURT
The retired Green Bay Packer now runs a fringe ministry. Two of his followers spouted “sovereign citizen” buzzwords in a bizarre court appearance.

...
Gbaja-Biamila is the leader of Straitway Praiseland, a Wisconsin offshoot of Tennessee’s fringe Straitway Truth Ministry. The church calls itself “Hebrew Israelite” and claims to preach a literal reading of the Bible. Centered in a Tennessee compound where some members live, farm, and train with firearms, Straitway Truth Ministry has endorsed conspiracy theories like Flat Earth in its official pamphlets, as well as male members’ right to have multiple wives.
...
Salmi and Desmith’s handwritten court filings show further traces of sovereign ideology, according to Joanna Mendelson, a senior investigative researcher at the Anti-Defamation League’s Center on Extremism.

Many sovereign citizens believe that their legal name is actually a “straw man,” a separate entity from their “flesh-and-blood” selves, she explained. Sovereign citizens often reference their “straw man” in all-caps, while using phony or just plain weird jargon to refer to what they see as their true selves.

Salmi and Desmith both tried a version of the tactic in handwritten documents they filed this week.

“There are a few elements throughout the document where they identify themselves in capital letters and then in the next line they talk about themselves in lower case letters and mention ‘beneficiary,’” Mendelson told The Daily Beast.

She also suggested that they deliberately referred to themselves as human or “i:man,” perhaps to differentiate from the Sovereign concept of “straw man.”

I don't know what makes them believe in the power of these magic words.

Quote:

When the judge called the trio “respondents” (a legal term for people in the case), Gbaja-Biamila objected. “We are not respondents,” he said, according to the Associated Press. “We are only men.” He threatened to “bill you $10 per second” if the judge used the term.

Redwood · 9th January 2020, 06:40 PM

Quote:

When the judge called the trio “respondents” (a legal term for people in the case), Gbaja-Biamila objected. “We are not respondents,” he said, according to the Associated Press. “We are only men.” He threatened to “bill you $10 per second” if the judge used the term.

DevilsAdvocate · 9th January 2020, 07:02 PM

Quote:

When the judge called the trio “respondents” (a legal term for people in the case), Gbaja-Biamila objected. “We are not respondents,” he said, according to the Associated Press. “We are only men.” He threatened to “bill you $10 per second” if the judge used the term.

But then the judge would just return the bill to him stamped "Accepted for Value".

Mojo · 10th January 2020, 01:39 AM

Originally Posted by DevilsAdvocate

But then the judge would just return the bill to him stamped "Accepted for Value".

I thought it had to be written in red ink at a 45-degree angle.

Mongrel · 10th January 2020, 06:06 AM

Originally Posted by Mojo

I thought it had to be written in red ink at a 45-degree angle.

On duck egg blue paper...
Or was that from a different part of their handbook?

ahhell · 10th January 2020, 07:02 AM

I love these guys, as long as there non-violent. There is something poetic about the whole, "Your laws don't apply to me for these very legalistic* reasons!"

*obviously not really legal reason, just legalistic jargon and rationales.

Hans · 11th January 2020, 04:22 PM

Originally Posted by ahhell

I love these guys, as long as there non-violent. There is something poetic about the whole, "Your laws don't apply to me for these very legalistic* reasons!"

*obviously not really legal reason, just legalistic jargon and rationales.

I always liked the idea that the evil world wide conspiracy would write in 'opt out rules' into the evil legal system to make every one else slaves.

dudalb · 13th January 2020, 02:45 PM

Nice change since the usual proponents of this idiocy are Nordic Aryan types....

Mojo · 13th January 2020, 03:56 PM

Originally Posted by Mongrel

On duck egg blue paper...
Or was that from a different part of their handbook?

Not that old canard! It has to be robin egg blue, surely?

BStrong · 13th January 2020, 04:12 PM

Originally Posted by dudalb

Nice change since the usual proponents of this idiocy are Nordic Aryan types....

I wouldn't have predicted an intersection of white supremacy and black nationalism/religious affiliation, but I wouldn't have predicted The Nation of Islam and Scientology would make common cause either.

dudalb · 13th January 2020, 04:39 PM

Originally Posted by BStrong

I wouldn't have predicted an intersection of white supremacy and black nationalism/religious affiliation, but I wouldn't have predicted The Nation of Islam and Scientology would make common cause either.

The White Supremist and the Black Nationalist have one thing in common: THey both don't like Jews very much.

Venom · 13th January 2020, 04:41 PM

Originally Posted by BStrong

I wouldn't have predicted an intersection of white supremacy and black nationalism/religious affiliation, but I wouldn't have predicted The Nation of Islam and Scientology would make common cause either.

https://www.nytimes.com/1985/10/03/u...farrakhan.html

Seems for the most part an anti-miscegenation common cause.

**** the moderates and harmonizers, we're going to shut this crap down together!

Armitage72 · 14th January 2020, 09:31 AM

Originally Posted by ahhell

I love these guys, as long as there non-violent. There is something poetic about the whole, "Your laws don't apply to me for these very legalistic* reasons!"

*obviously not really legal reason, just legalistic jargon and rationales.

I remember seeing a video of a woman and her boyfriend being stopped for a traffic violation, and he ended up being charged with driving without a license. She started yelling about a nonsense regulation that proved he didn't need a license and the police had no authority over them. She called herself a "free inhabitant", or something like that. She insisted that if the officer called his commander and reported her claims, then he would be told to let them go.

gypsyjackson · 16th January 2020, 06:55 AM

Originally Posted by Armitage72

I remember seeing a video of a woman and her boyfriend being stopped for a traffic violation, and he ended up being charged with driving without a license. She started yelling about a nonsense regulation that proved he didn't need a license and the police had no authority over them. She called herself a "free inhabitant", or something like that. She insisted that if the officer called his commander and reported her claims, then he would be told to let them go.

Article 4 free inhabitant, I expect.

timhau · 16th January 2020, 07:32 AM

Suddenly, I understand Luke Kuechly's early retirement a lot better.

pgwenthold · 17th January 2020, 11:10 AM

I was watching "How the States got their Shapes" the other day and it was talking about Ohio and how, apparently, Ohio didn't technically fulfill all the requirements when it applied for statehood, and there was a missing form of some sort. It was realized in 1950 when the state was going to celebrate its 150th anniversary of being a state, so Eisenhower had to sign something that retroactively made Ohio a state for all that time.

They mentioned in the show that it apparently still comes up on occasion for those who don't want to pay taxes (aka Sovereign Citizen), but just laughed them off as the dingbats that they are. By the way, their claims don't get any where.

Yes, Ohio is a state, you morons.

sackett · 19th January 2020, 09:35 AM

Yeah, well, Ohioo may be a state, but how bout the Land Between Wyoming and Montana?

There really is such a place. The border was surveyed twice, in the 1870s & again in the 1890s. They differed by a quarter of a mile. Doesn't sound like much, but it's 300 miles long. Who levies taxes on all that, WY or MT?

Any Sov Git can tell you: nobody! The Land Between, the Horizontal Chile of the West, pays no taxes to anybody! It heeds no laws!

It charges fees on intruders, too. $10/second, probably.

My head hurts. Where's my tinfoil hat?

William Parcher · 30th January 2020, 01:48 PM

Bizarre case involves a US air marshal, his Sea-Doo and accusations of his fringe, anti-government views

Originally Posted by CNN

As a federal air marshal, Paul Steward has sworn an oath to enforce the law in the skies above America.

But when he's off-duty, the 42-year-old officer has embraced a fringe ideology that rejects the US government's authority to impose many of the country's laws. The apparent contradiction between Steward's work and his personal views surfaced following what should have been a very minor brush with the law on one of the nation's waterways. The ensuing legal battle led to a suspension from his normal duties for the Transportation Security Administration.

Steward was riding his Sea-Doo watercraft on the Susquehanna River in Maryland in 2018 when a state Department of Natural Resources officer issued him three citations related to his vehicle's registration, according to court documents.

Instead of paying the fines, Steward aggressively fought the citations by espousing beliefs of the so-called "sovereign citizen" movement, court and police records show. Prosecutors and judges, Steward stated in court filings, were "foreign agents," the court overseeing his case was a "private corporation" controlled by foreign powers and the state of Maryland committed "fraud" by bringing such penalties against him.

The FBI has described sovereign citizens as "anti-government extremists who claim the federal government is operating outside its jurisdiction" and has previously identified the group as a "domestic threat." The FBI notes that sovereign citizens operate in loosely affiliated networks without established leadership....

https://www.cnn.com/2020/01/30/polit...nvs/index.html

ahhell · 30th January 2020, 01:53 PM

Originally Posted by dudalb

The White Supremist and the Black Nationalist have one thing in common: THey both don't like Jews very much.

Really, the ideologies are just mirrors of one another, they have quite a bit in common. Once you've decided that there is either a superior race or that races are all just better off living apart, the solutions are gonna look alike, just with a different hue.

Reminds of the Jewish conspiracy nut I heard interviewed years ago. Basically the same conspiracy and and actors as the anti-semitic conspiracy nuts would tell you its just the Rothschilds were really NAZI rather than Jews.

Agatha · 30th January 2020, 02:02 PM

It's spreading to the UK despite our laws being very different:

https://www.leicestermercury.co.uk/n...ge-mid-3589357

Armitage72 · 3rd February 2020, 08:56 AM

I just remembered an episode of "Dirty Jobs" in which the host was interviewing a leather tanner. He mentioned that he had gotten various letters from the EPA and the NY State Dept. of Environmental Conservation about his operation, but asserted that they had no authority over him. I was working for NYSDEC at the time, so I found it amusing.

Belz... · 3rd February 2020, 09:04 AM

Originally Posted by William Parcher

Bizarre case involves a US air marshal, his Sea-Doo and accusations of his fringe, anti-government views

https://www.cnn.com/2020/01/30/polit...nvs/index.html

Yeah, Sovereign Citizens don't have a belief system. They just don't want to have to pay taxes and fines, and obey the law.

The Great Zaganza · 3rd February 2020, 09:39 AM

They are spoiled brats who think they deserve something for nothing.

psionl0 · 3rd February 2020, 09:49 AM

Originally Posted by carlitos

Quote:

Many sovereign citizens believe that their legal name is actually a “straw man,” a separate entity from their “flesh-and-blood” selves, she explained. Sovereign citizens often reference their “straw man” in all-caps, while using phony or just plain weird jargon to refer to what they see as their true selves.

I don't know what makes them believe in the power of these magic words.

There may well be a "strawman" for financial purposes but the "flesh-and-blood" human would be surety for the strawman if he signed any contracts.

It is essentially a bastardization of the way a business is treated. For financial purposes, a business is treated as an entity that is separate from its owners. However, the business owners own all the assets of the business, are liable for all of the debts of the business and are entitled to all of the profits of the business or have to pay all of the losses of the business out of their own pocket.

Where the "magic" comes in is that they believe that there is a way to break the nexus between themselves and their strawman that the courts will actually listen to.

Originally Posted by DevilsAdvocate

But then the judge would just return the bill to him stamped "Accepted for Value".

If the judge did that then he would be on the hook for the bill.

This is another bastardization of the way financial documents work. A "bill of exchange" is essentially a letter addressed to somebody demanding money. If the addressee writes "accepted" then he is acknowledging the debt and the bill acquires the status of a promissory note.

There is supposed to be some magic way to sign a promissory note without being on the hook to pay it but it seems to apply mainly to banks who don't actually give you any money but just credit your bank account. (No explanation is given why this method works if you immediately make a cash withdrawal).

gypsyjackson · 21st May 2020, 11:33 AM

Sovereign citizenship has spread to my neck of the woods, making an appearance in Singapore:

YouTube Video This video is not hosted by the ISF. The ISF can not be held responsible for the suitability or legality of this material. By clicking the link below you agree to view content from an external website.

I AGREE

Her defence doesn’t seem to have worked, being remanded to a mental health institute, then fined:

https://www.scmp.com/news/asia/south...wear-face-mask

And now she has two extra charges:

https://www.todayonline.com/singapor...r-thomson-food

Next court date June 2...

SuburbanTurkey · 21st May 2020, 12:18 PM

Curious how this movement survives. They make very real claims about how the legal system works, and again and again there are examples of it failing. These people can harp about legal persons, gold fringed flags, and whatever, but eventually the State will prevail.

I get the feeling there's a mix of activist sovcits, who think their beliefs are what the law ought to be, and the extremely gullible ones who actually think it's going to work. The latter group I can't explain at all. How many times do the tactics have to fail in court before you realize the State won't accept your arguments?

Horatius · 21st May 2020, 12:23 PM

Originally Posted by SuburbanTurkey

I get the feeling there's a mix of activist sovcits, who think their beliefs are what the law ought to be, and the extremely gullible ones who actually think it's going to work. The latter group I can't explain at all. How many times do the tactics have to fail in court before you realize the State won't accept your arguments?

It's even worse than that. They've often said things like, "They couldn't disprove my arguments, so they just threw me in jail!"

Losing is literally seen as winning by more than a few of these people.

SuburbanTurkey · 21st May 2020, 12:27 PM

Originally Posted by Horatius

It's even worse than that. They've often said things like, "They couldn't disprove my arguments, so they just threw me in jail!"

Losing is literally seen as winning by more than a few of these people.

What do they even think the law is, on a fundamental level, I wonder. Because "a system of rules backed up by the threat of being taken to jail by guys with guns" sure sounds a lot like the law to me.

The nitty-gritty details of how the law is interpreted and how it is constructed can vary, but at the most basic level, it's about who has the most ability to exercise force to get their way, and that's the State.

theprestige · 21st May 2020, 12:28 PM

The most obnoxious thing about the SC arguments is that even if they're valid, the courts still prevail.

Telling the bandit leader that he has no legitimate authority isn't going to stop him and his henchmen from emptying your pockets and sending you on your way with a beating.

A real Freeman on the Land would be tracking down a legit Admiralty Court, with the flag fringes and everything, so they could lodge a proper appeal and get justice over the kangaroo courts that seemingly run things.

Trying to get the kangaroo court itself to honor your appeal of its rulings is by far the stupidest part of the FOTL nonsense.

Resume · 21st May 2020, 02:03 PM

I think many of these sov claimants are merely scofflaws and common petty criminals looking for an easy way to get over.

theprestige · 21st May 2020, 02:17 PM

Originally Posted by Resume

I think many of these sov claimants are merely scofflaws and common petty criminals looking for an easy way to get over.

I'd like to think that most petty criminals understand that telling the judge "you don't have power over me" is a pointless waste of time. But then I remember that these are the same folks who think telling the cop "these aren't my pants" is a good way to avoid arrest.

Resume · 21st May 2020, 02:25 PM

Originally Posted by theprestige

I'd like to think that most petty criminals understand that telling the judge "you don't have power over me" is a pointless waste of time. But then I remember that these are the same folks who think telling the cop "these aren't my pants" is a good way to avoid arrest.

I think wasting the cop's/judge's/legal system's time is part of the amusement. Also, there are sovcit videos in which their gibberish just exasperates the cop and they are told to move up, get a license, insurance, etc.

Resume · 21st May 2020, 02:30 PM

My favorite sov/cit court failure.

YouTube Video This video is not hosted by the ISF. The ISF can not be held responsible for the suitability or legality of this material. By clicking the link below you agree to view content from an external website.

I AGREE

Judge Tells Sovcit To Learn The Law Real Quick Or Get Represented

Horatius · 21st May 2020, 03:59 PM

Originally Posted by SuburbanTurkey

What do they even think the law is, on a fundamental level, I wonder. Because "a system of rules backed up by the threat of being taken to jail by guys with guns" sure sounds a lot like the law to me.

For some of them, it's a religious thing. they think the "real law" was handed down by god, and then these fake courts screwed it all up.

For others, they think that the "Real Law" exists, but is only known the The Special People, like corporations and rich people, who know all the right words to say to get free money and to get out of jail. The Sov Cits are convinced they've sussed out what those magic words are, so they can do it too. Any failures are explained away as you not getting it quite right, thus invalidating the incantation.

coalesce · 21st May 2020, 04:23 PM

One thing I don't quite get: if sovereign citizens don't accept the law of the land, then why do they use the currency of the land?

Michael

The Common Potato · 23rd May 2020, 12:46 AM

Originally Posted by Mojo

I thought it had to be written in red ink at a 45-degree angle.

That's quite normal for us contortionist, left-handed types.

gmanontario · 25th May 2020, 12:49 PM

I always wonder about the SovCits that use the Bible for a basis in law and continually talk about Gods Laws as the only law of the land. I've read the Old Testament and I do NOT want to live in that world. Where can I get a written list of Gods Laws aside from the 10 commandments?
Lately I've read its the King James version but nowhere would anyone tell me which version that is of the bible. Still no laws quoted, just verses that are taken out of context.
The new groups looks like another kick at the can or throwing crap against the wall hoping for some stickiness. Nothing new or interesting at all.

arayder · 25th May 2020, 01:45 PM

Originally Posted by gmanontario

I always wonder about the SovCits that use the Bible for a basis in law and continually talk about Gods Laws as the only law of the land. I've read the Old Testament and I do NOT want to live in that world. Where can I get a written list of Gods Laws aside from the 10 commandments?
Lately I've read its the King James version but nowhere would anyone tell me which version that is of the bible. Still no laws quoted, just verses that are taken out of context.
The new groups looks like another kick at the can or throwing crap against the wall hoping for some stickiness. Nothing new or interesting at all.

I've always thought that sovcits are really anarcho-libertarians pretending what they believe is law.

Most anarcho-libertarians know full well that their politics are the way they think things ought to be, not the way they are.

The sovcit's self-delusion is the reason they are so decried.

The Great Zaganza · 25th May 2020, 01:49 PM

They are cosplayers who can't tell fiction from reality.

gmanontario · 25th May 2020, 03:43 PM

Originally Posted by The Great Zaganza

They are cosplayers who can't tell fiction from reality.

Some SovCits have guns without orange caps on the barrels. Cosplayers are harmless, fun and serious about their schtick. To compare them with turdballs like SovCits is unfair.

I actually cant think of a group to compare them to without insulting a whole lotta people.

9th January 2020, 12:19 PM	#1
carlitos "más divertido" Join Date: Jul 2009 Location: USA! USA! Posts: 22,779	Sovereign Citizen Nonsense Other than Rob Menard, we don't have a catch-all thread for what these cats are up to. Here's one. The Crazy Case of Ex-NFL Player’s Pageant-Crashing Lackeys Quote: DISORDER IN THE COURT The retired Green Bay Packer now runs a fringe ministry. Two of his followers spouted “sovereign citizen” buzzwords in a bizarre court appearance. ... Gbaja-Biamila is the leader of Straitway Praiseland, a Wisconsin offshoot of Tennessee’s fringe Straitway Truth Ministry. The church calls itself “Hebrew Israelite” and claims to preach a literal reading of the Bible. Centered in a Tennessee compound where some members live, farm, and train with firearms, Straitway Truth Ministry has endorsed conspiracy theories like Flat Earth in its official pamphlets, as well as male members’ right to have multiple wives. ... Salmi and Desmith’s handwritten court filings show further traces of sovereign ideology, according to Joanna Mendelson, a senior investigative researcher at the Anti-Defamation League’s Center on Extremism. Many sovereign citizens believe that their legal name is actually a “straw man,” a separate entity from their “flesh-and-blood” selves, she explained. Sovereign citizens often reference their “straw man” in all-caps, while using phony or just plain weird jargon to refer to what they see as their true selves. Salmi and Desmith both tried a version of the tactic in handwritten documents they filed this week. “There are a few elements throughout the document where they identify themselves in capital letters and then in the next line they talk about themselves in lower case letters and mention ‘beneficiary,’” Mendelson told The Daily Beast. She also suggested that they deliberately referred to themselves as human or “i:man,” perhaps to differentiate from the Sovereign concept of “straw man.” I don't know what makes them believe in the power of these magic words. Quote: When the judge called the trio “respondents” (a legal term for people in the case), Gbaja-Biamila objected. “We are not respondents,” he said, according to the Associated Press. “We are only men.” He threatened to “bill you $10 per second” if the judge used the term.

9th January 2020, 06:40 PM	#2
Redwood Graduate Poster Join Date: May 2012 Posts: 1,550	Quote: When the judge called the trio “respondents” (a legal term for people in the case), Gbaja-Biamila objected. “We are not respondents,” he said, according to the Associated Press. “We are only men.” He threatened to “bill you $10 per second” if the judge used the term.
Redwood Graduate Poster Join Date: May 2012 Posts: 1,550

9th January 2020, 07:02 PM	#3
DevilsAdvocate Philosopher Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 6,252	Quote: When the judge called the trio “respondents” (a legal term for people in the case), Gbaja-Biamila objected. “We are not respondents,” he said, according to the Associated Press. “We are only men.” He threatened to “bill you $10 per second” if the judge used the term. But then the judge would just return the bill to him stamped "Accepted for Value".
	__________________ I don't need to fight to prove I'm right. - Baba O'Riley

10th January 2020, 01:39 AM	#4
Mojo Mostly harmless Join Date: Jul 2004 Location: Nor Flanden Posts: 33,559	Originally Posted by DevilsAdvocate But then the judge would just return the bill to him stamped "Accepted for Value". I thought it had to be written in red ink at a 45-degree angle.
	__________________ "You got to use your brain." - McKinley Morganfield "The poor mystic homeopaths feel like petted house-cats thrown at high flood on the breaking ice." - Leon Trotsky

10th January 2020, 06:06 AM	#5
Mongrel Begging for Scraps Join Date: Aug 2004 Location: UK, suburbia. 20 minutes in the future Posts: 2,020	Originally Posted by Mojo I thought it had to be written in red ink at a 45-degree angle. On duck egg blue paper... Or was that from a different part of their handbook?
	__________________ “Ignorance more frequently begets confidence than does knowledge: it is those who know little, and not those who know much, who so positively assert that this or that problem will never be solved by science.” - Charles Darwin ...like so many contemporary philosophers he especially enjoyed giving helpful advice to people who were happier than he was. - Tom Lehrer

10th January 2020, 07:02 AM	#6
ahhell Illuminator Join Date: Feb 2017 Posts: 3,351	I love these guys, as long as there non-violent. There is something poetic about the whole, "Your laws don't apply to me for these very legalistic* reasons!" *obviously not really legal reason, just legalistic jargon and rationales.
ahhell Illuminator Join Date: Feb 2017 Posts: 3,351

11th January 2020, 04:22 PM	#7
Hans Philosopher Join Date: May 2007 Posts: 8,419	Originally Posted by ahhell I love these guys, as long as there non-violent. There is something poetic about the whole, "Your laws don't apply to me for these very legalistic* reasons!" *obviously not really legal reason, just legalistic jargon and rationales. I always liked the idea that the evil world wide conspiracy would write in 'opt out rules' into the evil legal system to make every one else slaves.
Hans Philosopher Join Date: May 2007 Posts: 8,419

13th January 2020, 02:45 PM	#8
dudalb Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: Sacramento Posts: 49,869	Nice change since the usual proponents of this idiocy are Nordic Aryan types....
	__________________ Pacifism is a shifty doctrine under which a man accepts the benefits of the social group without being willing to pay - and claims a halo for his dishonesty. Robert Heinlein.

13th January 2020, 03:56 PM	#9
Mojo Mostly harmless Join Date: Jul 2004 Location: Nor Flanden Posts: 33,559	Originally Posted by Mongrel On duck egg blue paper... Or was that from a different part of their handbook? Not that old canard! It has to be robin egg blue, surely?
	__________________ "You got to use your brain." - McKinley Morganfield "The poor mystic homeopaths feel like petted house-cats thrown at high flood on the breaking ice." - Leon Trotsky

13th January 2020, 04:12 PM	#10
BStrong Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Jun 2011 Location: San Francisco Posts: 13,073	Originally Posted by dudalb Nice change since the usual proponents of this idiocy are Nordic Aryan types.... I wouldn't have predicted an intersection of white supremacy and black nationalism/religious affiliation, but I wouldn't have predicted The Nation of Islam and Scientology would make common cause either.
	__________________ Music is what feelings sound like "Dulce bellum inexpertīs." - Erasmus

13th January 2020, 04:39 PM	#11
dudalb Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: Sacramento Posts: 49,869	Originally Posted by BStrong I wouldn't have predicted an intersection of white supremacy and black nationalism/religious affiliation, but I wouldn't have predicted The Nation of Islam and Scientology would make common cause either. The White Supremist and the Black Nationalist have one thing in common: THey both don't like Jews very much.
	__________________ Pacifism is a shifty doctrine under which a man accepts the benefits of the social group without being willing to pay - and claims a halo for his dishonesty. Robert Heinlein.

13th January 2020, 04:41 PM	#12
Venom Illuminator Join Date: Apr 2011 Location: United States Posts: 4,840	Originally Posted by BStrong I wouldn't have predicted an intersection of white supremacy and black nationalism/religious affiliation, but I wouldn't have predicted The Nation of Islam and Scientology would make common cause either. https://www.nytimes.com/1985/10/03/u...farrakhan.html Seems for the most part an anti-miscegenation common cause. **** the moderates and harmonizers, we're going to shut this crap down together!

14th January 2020, 09:31 AM	#13
Armitage72 Philosopher Join Date: Mar 2012 Location: Rochester, NY Posts: 5,164	Originally Posted by ahhell I love these guys, as long as there non-violent. There is something poetic about the whole, "Your laws don't apply to me for these very legalistic* reasons!" *obviously not really legal reason, just legalistic jargon and rationales. I remember seeing a video of a woman and her boyfriend being stopped for a traffic violation, and he ended up being charged with driving without a license. She started yelling about a nonsense regulation that proved he didn't need a license and the police had no authority over them. She called herself a "free inhabitant", or something like that. She insisted that if the officer called his commander and reported her claims, then he would be told to let them go.

16th January 2020, 06:55 AM	#14
gypsyjackson Graduate Poster Join Date: Jan 2014 Location: Kuala Lumpur, Malaysia Posts: 1,027	Originally Posted by Armitage72 I remember seeing a video of a woman and her boyfriend being stopped for a traffic violation, and he ended up being charged with driving without a license. She started yelling about a nonsense regulation that proved he didn't need a license and the police had no authority over them. She called herself a "free inhabitant", or something like that. She insisted that if the officer called his commander and reported her claims, then he would be told to let them go. Article 4 free inhabitant, I expect.

16th January 2020, 07:32 AM	#15
timhau NWO Litter Technician Join Date: May 2004 Location: Looks like Finland. Smells like Finland. Quacks like Finland. Where the hell am I? Posts: 14,341	Suddenly, I understand Luke Kuechly's early retirement a lot better.
	__________________ When I was a kid I used to pray every night for a new bicycle. Then I realised that the Lord, in his wisdom, doesn't work that way. I just stole one and asked Him to forgive me. - Emo Philips

17th January 2020, 11:10 AM	#16
pgwenthold Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Sep 2001 Posts: 20,037	I was watching "How the States got their Shapes" the other day and it was talking about Ohio and how, apparently, Ohio didn't technically fulfill all the requirements when it applied for statehood, and there was a missing form of some sort. It was realized in 1950 when the state was going to celebrate its 150th anniversary of being a state, so Eisenhower had to sign something that retroactively made Ohio a state for all that time. They mentioned in the show that it apparently still comes up on occasion for those who don't want to pay taxes (aka Sovereign Citizen), but just laughed them off as the dingbats that they are. By the way, their claims don't get any where. Yes, Ohio is a state, you morons.
	__________________ "As your friend, I have to be honest with you: I don't care about you or your problems" - Chloe, Secret Life of Pets

19th January 2020, 09:35 AM	#17
sackett Philosopher Join Date: Aug 2003 Location: Detroit Posts: 6,284	Yeah, well, Ohioo may be a state, but how bout the Land Between Wyoming and Montana? There really is such a place. The border was surveyed twice, in the 1870s & again in the 1890s. They differed by a quarter of a mile. Doesn't sound like much, but it's 300 miles long. Who levies taxes on all that, WY or MT? Any Sov Git can tell you: nobody! The Land Between, the Horizontal Chile of the West, pays no taxes to anybody! It heeds no laws! It charges fees on intruders, too. $10/second, probably. My head hurts. Where's my tinfoil hat?
	__________________ Fill the seats of justice with good men; not so absolute in goodness as to forget what human frailty is. -- Thomas Jefferson What region of the earth is not filled with our calamities? -- Virgil

30th January 2020, 01:48 PM	#18
William Parcher Show me the monkey! Join Date: Jul 2005 Posts: 25,728	Bizarre case involves a US air marshal, his Sea-Doo and accusations of his fringe, anti-government views Originally Posted by CNN As a federal air marshal, Paul Steward has sworn an oath to enforce the law in the skies above America. But when he's off-duty, the 42-year-old officer has embraced a fringe ideology that rejects the US government's authority to impose many of the country's laws. The apparent contradiction between Steward's work and his personal views surfaced following what should have been a very minor brush with the law on one of the nation's waterways. The ensuing legal battle led to a suspension from his normal duties for the Transportation Security Administration. Steward was riding his Sea-Doo watercraft on the Susquehanna River in Maryland in 2018 when a state Department of Natural Resources officer issued him three citations related to his vehicle's registration, according to court documents. Instead of paying the fines, Steward aggressively fought the citations by espousing beliefs of the so-called "sovereign citizen" movement, court and police records show. Prosecutors and judges, Steward stated in court filings, were "foreign agents," the court overseeing his case was a "private corporation" controlled by foreign powers and the state of Maryland committed "fraud" by bringing such penalties against him. The FBI has described sovereign citizens as "anti-government extremists who claim the federal government is operating outside its jurisdiction" and has previously identified the group as a "domestic threat." The FBI notes that sovereign citizens operate in loosely affiliated networks without established leadership.... https://www.cnn.com/2020/01/30/polit...nvs/index.html
	__________________ Bigfoot believers and Bigfoot skeptics are both plumb crazy. Each spends more than one minute per year thinking about Bigfoot.

30th January 2020, 01:53 PM	#19
ahhell Illuminator Join Date: Feb 2017 Posts: 3,351	Originally Posted by dudalb The White Supremist and the Black Nationalist have one thing in common: THey both don't like Jews very much. Really, the ideologies are just mirrors of one another, they have quite a bit in common. Once you've decided that there is either a superior race or that races are all just better off living apart, the solutions are gonna look alike, just with a different hue. Reminds of the Jewish conspiracy nut I heard interviewed years ago. Basically the same conspiracy and and actors as the anti-semitic conspiracy nuts would tell you its just the Rothschilds were really NAZI rather than Jews.
ahhell Illuminator Join Date: Feb 2017 Posts: 3,351	Last edited by ahhell; 30th January 2020 at 03:46 PM.

30th January 2020, 02:02 PM	#20
Agatha Winking at the Moon Deputy Admin Join Date: Sep 2008 Location: UK Posts: 13,951	It's spreading to the UK despite our laws being very different: https://www.leicestermercury.co.uk/n...ge-mid-3589357
	__________________ Why can't you be more like Agatha? - Loss Leader

3rd February 2020, 08:56 AM	#21
Armitage72 Philosopher Join Date: Mar 2012 Location: Rochester, NY Posts: 5,164	I just remembered an episode of "Dirty Jobs" in which the host was interviewing a leather tanner. He mentioned that he had gotten various letters from the EPA and the NY State Dept. of Environmental Conservation about his operation, but asserted that they had no authority over him. I was working for NYSDEC at the time, so I found it amusing.

3rd February 2020, 09:04 AM	#22
Belz... Fiend God Join Date: Oct 2005 Location: In a post-fact world Posts: 91,292	Originally Posted by William Parcher Bizarre case involves a US air marshal, his Sea-Doo and accusations of his fringe, anti-government views https://www.cnn.com/2020/01/30/polit...nvs/index.html Yeah, Sovereign Citizens don't have a belief system. They just don't want to have to pay taxes and fines, and obey the law.
	__________________ Master of the Shining Darkness "My views are nonsense. So what?" - BobTheCoward

3rd February 2020, 09:39 AM	#23
The Great Zaganza Maledictorian Join Date: Aug 2016 Posts: 14,291	They are spoiled brats who think they deserve something for nothing.
	__________________ Ceterum autem censeo fox et amicis esse delendam.

3rd February 2020, 09:49 AM	#24
psionl0 Skeptical about skeptics Join Date: Sep 2010 Location: 31°57'S 115°57'E Posts: 16,848	Originally Posted by carlitos Quote: Many sovereign citizens believe that their legal name is actually a “straw man,” a separate entity from their “flesh-and-blood” selves, she explained. Sovereign citizens often reference their “straw man” in all-caps, while using phony or just plain weird jargon to refer to what they see as their true selves. I don't know what makes them believe in the power of these magic words. There may well be a "strawman" for financial purposes but the "flesh-and-blood" human would be surety for the strawman if he signed any contracts. It is essentially a bastardization of the way a business is treated. For financial purposes, a business is treated as an entity that is separate from its owners. However, the business owners own all the assets of the business, are liable for all of the debts of the business and are entitled to all of the profits of the business or have to pay all of the losses of the business out of their own pocket. Where the "magic" comes in is that they believe that there is a way to break the nexus between themselves and their strawman that the courts will actually listen to. Originally Posted by DevilsAdvocate But then the judge would just return the bill to him stamped "Accepted for Value". If the judge did that then he would be on the hook for the bill. This is another bastardization of the way financial documents work. A "bill of exchange" is essentially a letter addressed to somebody demanding money. If the addressee writes "accepted" then he is acknowledging the debt and the bill acquires the status of a promissory note. There is supposed to be some magic way to sign a promissory note without being on the hook to pay it but it seems to apply mainly to banks who don't actually give you any money but just credit your bank account. (No explanation is given why this method works if you immediately make a cash withdrawal).
	__________________ "The process by which banks create money is so simple that the mind is repelled. Where something so important is involved, a deeper mystery seems only decent." - Galbraith, 1975

21st May 2020, 12:18 PM	#26
SuburbanTurkey Philosopher Join Date: Apr 2018 Location: Massachusetts, USA Posts: 7,110	Curious how this movement survives. They make very real claims about how the legal system works, and again and again there are examples of it failing. These people can harp about legal persons, gold fringed flags, and whatever, but eventually the State will prevail. I get the feeling there's a mix of activist sovcits, who think their beliefs are what the law ought to be, and the extremely gullible ones who actually think it's going to work. The latter group I can't explain at all. How many times do the tactics have to fail in court before you realize the State won't accept your arguments?
	__________________ Gobble gobble

21st May 2020, 12:23 PM	#27
Horatius NWO Kitty Wrangler Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 28,886	Originally Posted by SuburbanTurkey I get the feeling there's a mix of activist sovcits, who think their beliefs are what the law ought to be, and the extremely gullible ones who actually think it's going to work. The latter group I can't explain at all. How many times do the tactics have to fail in court before you realize the State won't accept your arguments? It's even worse than that. They've often said things like, "They couldn't disprove my arguments, so they just threw me in jail!" Losing is literally seen as winning by more than a few of these people.
	__________________ Obviously, that means cats are indeed evil and that ownership or display of a feline is an overt declaration of one's affiliation with dark forces. - Cl1mh4224rd

21st May 2020, 12:27 PM	#28
SuburbanTurkey Philosopher Join Date: Apr 2018 Location: Massachusetts, USA Posts: 7,110	Originally Posted by Horatius It's even worse than that. They've often said things like, "They couldn't disprove my arguments, so they just threw me in jail!" Losing is literally seen as winning by more than a few of these people. What do they even think the law is, on a fundamental level, I wonder. Because "a system of rules backed up by the threat of being taken to jail by guys with guns" sure sounds a lot like the law to me. The nitty-gritty details of how the law is interpreted and how it is constructed can vary, but at the most basic level, it's about who has the most ability to exercise force to get their way, and that's the State.
	__________________ Gobble gobble

21st May 2020, 12:28 PM	#29
theprestige Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: Hong Kong Posts: 48,524	The most obnoxious thing about the SC arguments is that even if they're valid, the courts still prevail. Telling the bandit leader that he has no legitimate authority isn't going to stop him and his henchmen from emptying your pockets and sending you on your way with a beating. A real Freeman on the Land would be tracking down a legit Admiralty Court, with the flag fringes and everything, so they could lodge a proper appeal and get justice over the kangaroo courts that seemingly run things. Trying to get the kangaroo court itself to honor your appeal of its rulings is by far the stupidest part of the FOTL nonsense.

21st May 2020, 02:03 PM	#30
Resume Troublesome Passenger Join Date: Apr 2010 Posts: 18,624	I think many of these sov claimants are merely scofflaws and common petty criminals looking for an easy way to get over.
	__________________ He must be removed. George Will on President Donald J. Trump. June 1, 2020

21st May 2020, 02:17 PM	#31
theprestige Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: Hong Kong Posts: 48,524	Originally Posted by Resume I think many of these sov claimants are merely scofflaws and common petty criminals looking for an easy way to get over. I'd like to think that most petty criminals understand that telling the judge "you don't have power over me" is a pointless waste of time. But then I remember that these are the same folks who think telling the cop "these aren't my pants" is a good way to avoid arrest.

21st May 2020, 02:25 PM	#32
Resume Troublesome Passenger Join Date: Apr 2010 Posts: 18,624	Originally Posted by theprestige I'd like to think that most petty criminals understand that telling the judge "you don't have power over me" is a pointless waste of time. But then I remember that these are the same folks who think telling the cop "these aren't my pants" is a good way to avoid arrest. I think wasting the cop's/judge's/legal system's time is part of the amusement. Also, there are sovcit videos in which their gibberish just exasperates the cop and they are told to move up, get a license, insurance, etc.
	__________________ He must be removed. George Will on President Donald J. Trump. June 1, 2020 Last edited by Resume; 21st May 2020 at 02:30 PM.

21st May 2020, 03:59 PM	#34
Horatius NWO Kitty Wrangler Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 28,886	Originally Posted by SuburbanTurkey What do they even think the law is, on a fundamental level, I wonder. Because "a system of rules backed up by the threat of being taken to jail by guys with guns" sure sounds a lot like the law to me. For some of them, it's a religious thing. they think the "real law" was handed down by god, and then these fake courts screwed it all up. For others, they think that the "Real Law" exists, but is only known the The Special People, like corporations and rich people, who know all the right words to say to get free money and to get out of jail. The Sov Cits are convinced they've sussed out what those magic words are, so they can do it too. Any failures are explained away as you not getting it quite right, thus invalidating the incantation.
	__________________ Obviously, that means cats are indeed evil and that ownership or display of a feline is an overt declaration of one's affiliation with dark forces. - Cl1mh4224rd

21st May 2020, 04:23 PM	#35
coalesce Illuminator Join Date: Mar 2003 Posts: 4,698	One thing I don't quite get: if sovereign citizens don't accept the law of the land, then why do they use the currency of the land? Michael
coalesce Illuminator Join Date: Mar 2003 Posts: 4,698	__________________ "I want the kids in bed by nine, the dog fed, the yard watered and the gate locked. And get a note to the milkman NO MORE CHEESE!" “Of all sad words of tongue or pen, the saddest are these, 'It might have been.”

23rd May 2020, 12:46 AM	#36
The Common Potato Critical Thinker Join Date: Apr 2019 Location: The Scunthorpe Problem Posts: 351	Originally Posted by Mojo I thought it had to be written in red ink at a 45-degree angle. That's quite normal for us contortionist, left-handed types.

25th May 2020, 12:49 PM	#37
gmanontario Muse Join Date: Mar 2004 Posts: 560	I always wonder about the SovCits that use the Bible for a basis in law and continually talk about Gods Laws as the only law of the land. I've read the Old Testament and I do NOT want to live in that world. Where can I get a written list of Gods Laws aside from the 10 commandments? Lately I've read its the King James version but nowhere would anyone tell me which version that is of the bible. Still no laws quoted, just verses that are taken out of context. The new groups looks like another kick at the can or throwing crap against the wall hoping for some stickiness. Nothing new or interesting at all.
gmanontario Muse Join Date: Mar 2004 Posts: 560	__________________ Energy can neither be created nor destroyed...it can only be wasted. Red Green Last edited by gmanontario; 25th May 2020 at 12:51 PM.