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Tags FOTL , Freemen on the land , Sovereign Citizens

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Old 9th January 2020, 12:19 PM   #1
carlitos
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Sovereign Citizen Nonsense

Other than Rob Menard, we don't have a catch-all thread for what these cats are up to. Here's one.

The Crazy Case of Ex-NFL Player’s Pageant-Crashing Lackeys
Quote:
DISORDER IN THE COURT
The retired Green Bay Packer now runs a fringe ministry. Two of his followers spouted “sovereign citizen” buzzwords in a bizarre court appearance.

...
Gbaja-Biamila is the leader of Straitway Praiseland, a Wisconsin offshoot of Tennessee’s fringe Straitway Truth Ministry. The church calls itself “Hebrew Israelite” and claims to preach a literal reading of the Bible. Centered in a Tennessee compound where some members live, farm, and train with firearms, Straitway Truth Ministry has endorsed conspiracy theories like Flat Earth in its official pamphlets, as well as male members’ right to have multiple wives.
...
Salmi and Desmith’s handwritten court filings show further traces of sovereign ideology, according to Joanna Mendelson, a senior investigative researcher at the Anti-Defamation League’s Center on Extremism.

Many sovereign citizens believe that their legal name is actually a “straw man,” a separate entity from their “flesh-and-blood” selves, she explained. Sovereign citizens often reference their “straw man” in all-caps, while using phony or just plain weird jargon to refer to what they see as their true selves.

Salmi and Desmith both tried a version of the tactic in handwritten documents they filed this week.

“There are a few elements throughout the document where they identify themselves in capital letters and then in the next line they talk about themselves in lower case letters and mention ‘beneficiary,’” Mendelson told The Daily Beast.

She also suggested that they deliberately referred to themselves as human or “i:man,” perhaps to differentiate from the Sovereign concept of “straw man.”
I don't know what makes them believe in the power of these magic words.

Quote:
When the judge called the trio “respondents” (a legal term for people in the case), Gbaja-Biamila objected. “We are not respondents,” he said, according to the Associated Press. “We are only men.” He threatened to “bill you $10 per second” if the judge used the term.
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Old 9th January 2020, 06:40 PM   #2
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Quote:
When the judge called the trio “respondents” (a legal term for people in the case), Gbaja-Biamila objected. “We are not respondents,” he said, according to the Associated Press. “We are only men.” He threatened to “bill you $10 per second” if the judge used the term.
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Old 9th January 2020, 07:02 PM   #3
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Quote:
When the judge called the trio “respondents” (a legal term for people in the case), Gbaja-Biamila objected. “We are not respondents,” he said, according to the Associated Press. “We are only men.” He threatened to “bill you $10 per second” if the judge used the term.
But then the judge would just return the bill to him stamped "Accepted for Value".
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Old 10th January 2020, 01:39 AM   #4
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Originally Posted by DevilsAdvocate View Post
But then the judge would just return the bill to him stamped "Accepted for Value".

I thought it had to be written in red ink at a 45-degree angle.
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Old 10th January 2020, 06:06 AM   #5
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Originally Posted by Mojo View Post
I thought it had to be written in red ink at a 45-degree angle.
On duck egg blue paper...
Or was that from a different part of their handbook?
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Old 10th January 2020, 07:02 AM   #6
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I love these guys, as long as there non-violent. There is something poetic about the whole, "Your laws don't apply to me for these very legalistic* reasons!"

*obviously not really legal reason, just legalistic jargon and rationales.
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Old 11th January 2020, 04:22 PM   #7
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Originally Posted by ahhell View Post
I love these guys, as long as there non-violent. There is something poetic about the whole, "Your laws don't apply to me for these very legalistic* reasons!"

*obviously not really legal reason, just legalistic jargon and rationales.
I always liked the idea that the evil world wide conspiracy would write in 'opt out rules' into the evil legal system to make every one else slaves.
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Old 13th January 2020, 02:45 PM   #8
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Nice change since the usual proponents of this idiocy are Nordic Aryan types....
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Old 13th January 2020, 03:56 PM   #9
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Originally Posted by Mongrel View Post
On duck egg blue paper...
Or was that from a different part of their handbook?

Not that old canard! It has to be robin egg blue, surely?
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Old 13th January 2020, 04:12 PM   #10
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Originally Posted by dudalb View Post
Nice change since the usual proponents of this idiocy are Nordic Aryan types....
I wouldn't have predicted an intersection of white supremacy and black nationalism/religious affiliation, but I wouldn't have predicted The Nation of Islam and Scientology would make common cause either.
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Old 13th January 2020, 04:39 PM   #11
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Originally Posted by BStrong View Post
I wouldn't have predicted an intersection of white supremacy and black nationalism/religious affiliation, but I wouldn't have predicted The Nation of Islam and Scientology would make common cause either.
The White Supremist and the Black Nationalist have one thing in common: THey both don't like Jews very much.
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Old 13th January 2020, 04:41 PM   #12
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Originally Posted by BStrong View Post
I wouldn't have predicted an intersection of white supremacy and black nationalism/religious affiliation, but I wouldn't have predicted The Nation of Islam and Scientology would make common cause either.
https://www.nytimes.com/1985/10/03/u...farrakhan.html

Seems for the most part an anti-miscegenation common cause.

**** the moderates and harmonizers, we're going to shut this crap down together!
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Old 14th January 2020, 09:31 AM   #13
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Originally Posted by ahhell View Post
I love these guys, as long as there non-violent. There is something poetic about the whole, "Your laws don't apply to me for these very legalistic* reasons!"

*obviously not really legal reason, just legalistic jargon and rationales.

I remember seeing a video of a woman and her boyfriend being stopped for a traffic violation, and he ended up being charged with driving without a license. She started yelling about a nonsense regulation that proved he didn't need a license and the police had no authority over them. She called herself a "free inhabitant", or something like that. She insisted that if the officer called his commander and reported her claims, then he would be told to let them go.
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Old 16th January 2020, 06:55 AM   #14
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Originally Posted by Armitage72 View Post
I remember seeing a video of a woman and her boyfriend being stopped for a traffic violation, and he ended up being charged with driving without a license. She started yelling about a nonsense regulation that proved he didn't need a license and the police had no authority over them. She called herself a "free inhabitant", or something like that. She insisted that if the officer called his commander and reported her claims, then he would be told to let them go.
Article 4 free inhabitant, I expect.
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Old 16th January 2020, 07:32 AM   #15
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Suddenly, I understand Luke Kuechly's early retirement a lot better.
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Old 17th January 2020, 11:10 AM   #16
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I was watching "How the States got their Shapes" the other day and it was talking about Ohio and how, apparently, Ohio didn't technically fulfill all the requirements when it applied for statehood, and there was a missing form of some sort. It was realized in 1950 when the state was going to celebrate its 150th anniversary of being a state, so Eisenhower had to sign something that retroactively made Ohio a state for all that time.

They mentioned in the show that it apparently still comes up on occasion for those who don't want to pay taxes (aka Sovereign Citizen), but just laughed them off as the dingbats that they are. By the way, their claims don't get any where.

Yes, Ohio is a state, you morons.
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Old 19th January 2020, 09:35 AM   #17
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Yeah, well, Ohioo may be a state, but how bout the Land Between Wyoming and Montana?

There really is such a place. The border was surveyed twice, in the 1870s & again in the 1890s. They differed by a quarter of a mile. Doesn't sound like much, but it's 300 miles long. Who levies taxes on all that, WY or MT?

Any Sov Git can tell you: nobody! The Land Between, the Horizontal Chile of the West, pays no taxes to anybody! It heeds no laws!

It charges fees on intruders, too. $10/second, probably.

My head hurts. Where's my tinfoil hat?
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Old 30th January 2020, 01:48 PM   #18
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Bizarre case involves a US air marshal, his Sea-Doo and accusations of his fringe, anti-government views

Originally Posted by CNN
As a federal air marshal, Paul Steward has sworn an oath to enforce the law in the skies above America.

But when he's off-duty, the 42-year-old officer has embraced a fringe ideology that rejects the US government's authority to impose many of the country's laws. The apparent contradiction between Steward's work and his personal views surfaced following what should have been a very minor brush with the law on one of the nation's waterways. The ensuing legal battle led to a suspension from his normal duties for the Transportation Security Administration.

Steward was riding his Sea-Doo watercraft on the Susquehanna River in Maryland in 2018 when a state Department of Natural Resources officer issued him three citations related to his vehicle's registration, according to court documents.

Instead of paying the fines, Steward aggressively fought the citations by espousing beliefs of the so-called "sovereign citizen" movement, court and police records show. Prosecutors and judges, Steward stated in court filings, were "foreign agents," the court overseeing his case was a "private corporation" controlled by foreign powers and the state of Maryland committed "fraud" by bringing such penalties against him.

The FBI has described sovereign citizens as "anti-government extremists who claim the federal government is operating outside its jurisdiction" and has previously identified the group as a "domestic threat." The FBI notes that sovereign citizens operate in loosely affiliated networks without established leadership....
https://www.cnn.com/2020/01/30/polit...nvs/index.html
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Old 30th January 2020, 01:53 PM   #19
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Originally Posted by dudalb View Post
The White Supremist and the Black Nationalist have one thing in common: THey both don't like Jews very much.
Really, the ideologies are just mirrors of one another, they have quite a bit in common. Once you've decided that there is either a superior race or that races are all just better off living apart, the solutions are gonna look alike, just with a different hue.

Reminds of the Jewish conspiracy nut I heard interviewed years ago. Basically the same conspiracy and and actors as the anti-semitic conspiracy nuts would tell you its just the Rothschilds were really NAZI rather than Jews.

Last edited by ahhell; 30th January 2020 at 03:46 PM.
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Old 30th January 2020, 02:02 PM   #20
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It's spreading to the UK despite our laws being very different:

https://www.leicestermercury.co.uk/n...ge-mid-3589357
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Old 3rd February 2020, 08:56 AM   #21
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I just remembered an episode of "Dirty Jobs" in which the host was interviewing a leather tanner. He mentioned that he had gotten various letters from the EPA and the NY State Dept. of Environmental Conservation about his operation, but asserted that they had no authority over him. I was working for NYSDEC at the time, so I found it amusing.
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Old 3rd February 2020, 09:04 AM   #22
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Originally Posted by William Parcher View Post
Bizarre case involves a US air marshal, his Sea-Doo and accusations of his fringe, anti-government views


https://www.cnn.com/2020/01/30/polit...nvs/index.html
Yeah, Sovereign Citizens don't have a belief system. They just don't want to have to pay taxes and fines, and obey the law.
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Old 3rd February 2020, 09:39 AM   #23
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They are spoiled brats who think they deserve something for nothing.
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Old 3rd February 2020, 09:49 AM   #24
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Originally Posted by carlitos View Post
Quote:
Many sovereign citizens believe that their legal name is actually a “straw man,” a separate entity from their “flesh-and-blood” selves, she explained. Sovereign citizens often reference their “straw man” in all-caps, while using phony or just plain weird jargon to refer to what they see as their true selves.
I don't know what makes them believe in the power of these magic words.
There may well be a "strawman" for financial purposes but the "flesh-and-blood" human would be surety for the strawman if he signed any contracts.

It is essentially a bastardization of the way a business is treated. For financial purposes, a business is treated as an entity that is separate from its owners. However, the business owners own all the assets of the business, are liable for all of the debts of the business and are entitled to all of the profits of the business or have to pay all of the losses of the business out of their own pocket.

Where the "magic" comes in is that they believe that there is a way to break the nexus between themselves and their strawman that the courts will actually listen to.


Originally Posted by DevilsAdvocate View Post
But then the judge would just return the bill to him stamped "Accepted for Value".
If the judge did that then he would be on the hook for the bill.

This is another bastardization of the way financial documents work. A "bill of exchange" is essentially a letter addressed to somebody demanding money. If the addressee writes "accepted" then he is acknowledging the debt and the bill acquires the status of a promissory note.

There is supposed to be some magic way to sign a promissory note without being on the hook to pay it but it seems to apply mainly to banks who don't actually give you any money but just credit your bank account. (No explanation is given why this method works if you immediately make a cash withdrawal).
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Old 21st May 2020, 11:33 AM   #25
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Sovereign citizenship has spread to my neck of the woods, making an appearance in Singapore:
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Her defence doesn’t seem to have worked, being remanded to a mental health institute, then fined:

https://www.scmp.com/news/asia/south...wear-face-mask

And now she has two extra charges:

https://www.todayonline.com/singapor...r-thomson-food

Next court date June 2...

Last edited by Darat; 21st May 2020 at 01:20 PM. Reason: Fixed YT tag
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Old 21st May 2020, 12:18 PM   #26
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Curious how this movement survives. They make very real claims about how the legal system works, and again and again there are examples of it failing. These people can harp about legal persons, gold fringed flags, and whatever, but eventually the State will prevail.

I get the feeling there's a mix of activist sovcits, who think their beliefs are what the law ought to be, and the extremely gullible ones who actually think it's going to work. The latter group I can't explain at all. How many times do the tactics have to fail in court before you realize the State won't accept your arguments?
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Old 21st May 2020, 12:23 PM   #27
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Originally Posted by SuburbanTurkey View Post
I get the feeling there's a mix of activist sovcits, who think their beliefs are what the law ought to be, and the extremely gullible ones who actually think it's going to work. The latter group I can't explain at all. How many times do the tactics have to fail in court before you realize the State won't accept your arguments?


It's even worse than that. They've often said things like, "They couldn't disprove my arguments, so they just threw me in jail!"

Losing is literally seen as winning by more than a few of these people.
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Old 21st May 2020, 12:27 PM   #28
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Originally Posted by Horatius View Post
It's even worse than that. They've often said things like, "They couldn't disprove my arguments, so they just threw me in jail!"

Losing is literally seen as winning by more than a few of these people.
What do they even think the law is, on a fundamental level, I wonder. Because "a system of rules backed up by the threat of being taken to jail by guys with guns" sure sounds a lot like the law to me.

The nitty-gritty details of how the law is interpreted and how it is constructed can vary, but at the most basic level, it's about who has the most ability to exercise force to get their way, and that's the State.
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Old 21st May 2020, 12:28 PM   #29
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The most obnoxious thing about the SC arguments is that even if they're valid, the courts still prevail.

Telling the bandit leader that he has no legitimate authority isn't going to stop him and his henchmen from emptying your pockets and sending you on your way with a beating.

A real Freeman on the Land would be tracking down a legit Admiralty Court, with the flag fringes and everything, so they could lodge a proper appeal and get justice over the kangaroo courts that seemingly run things.

Trying to get the kangaroo court itself to honor your appeal of its rulings is by far the stupidest part of the FOTL nonsense.
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Old 21st May 2020, 02:03 PM   #30
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I think many of these sov claimants are merely scofflaws and common petty criminals looking for an easy way to get over.
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Old 21st May 2020, 02:17 PM   #31
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Originally Posted by Resume View Post
I think many of these sov claimants are merely scofflaws and common petty criminals looking for an easy way to get over.
I'd like to think that most petty criminals understand that telling the judge "you don't have power over me" is a pointless waste of time. But then I remember that these are the same folks who think telling the cop "these aren't my pants" is a good way to avoid arrest.
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Old 21st May 2020, 02:25 PM   #32
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
I'd like to think that most petty criminals understand that telling the judge "you don't have power over me" is a pointless waste of time. But then I remember that these are the same folks who think telling the cop "these aren't my pants" is a good way to avoid arrest.
I think wasting the cop's/judge's/legal system's time is part of the amusement. Also, there are sovcit videos in which their gibberish just exasperates the cop and they are told to move up, get a license, insurance, etc.
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Old 21st May 2020, 02:30 PM   #33
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My favorite sov/cit court failure.
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Judge Tells Sovcit To Learn The Law Real Quick Or Get Represented
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Old 21st May 2020, 03:59 PM   #34
Horatius
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Originally Posted by SuburbanTurkey View Post
What do they even think the law is, on a fundamental level, I wonder. Because "a system of rules backed up by the threat of being taken to jail by guys with guns" sure sounds a lot like the law to me.

For some of them, it's a religious thing. they think the "real law" was handed down by god, and then these fake courts screwed it all up.

For others, they think that the "Real Law" exists, but is only known the The Special People, like corporations and rich people, who know all the right words to say to get free money and to get out of jail. The Sov Cits are convinced they've sussed out what those magic words are, so they can do it too. Any failures are explained away as you not getting it quite right, thus invalidating the incantation.
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Old 21st May 2020, 04:23 PM   #35
coalesce
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One thing I don't quite get: if sovereign citizens don't accept the law of the land, then why do they use the currency of the land?

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Old 23rd May 2020, 12:46 AM   #36
The Common Potato
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Originally Posted by Mojo View Post
I thought it had to be written in red ink at a 45-degree angle.
That's quite normal for us contortionist, left-handed types.
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Old 25th May 2020, 12:49 PM   #37
gmanontario
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I always wonder about the SovCits that use the Bible for a basis in law and continually talk about Gods Laws as the only law of the land. I've read the Old Testament and I do NOT want to live in that world. Where can I get a written list of Gods Laws aside from the 10 commandments?
Lately I've read its the King James version but nowhere would anyone tell me which version that is of the bible. Still no laws quoted, just verses that are taken out of context.
The new groups looks like another kick at the can or throwing crap against the wall hoping for some stickiness. Nothing new or interesting at all.
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Last edited by gmanontario; 25th May 2020 at 12:51 PM.
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Old 25th May 2020, 01:45 PM   #38
arayder
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Originally Posted by gmanontario View Post
I always wonder about the SovCits that use the Bible for a basis in law and continually talk about Gods Laws as the only law of the land. I've read the Old Testament and I do NOT want to live in that world. Where can I get a written list of Gods Laws aside from the 10 commandments?
Lately I've read its the King James version but nowhere would anyone tell me which version that is of the bible. Still no laws quoted, just verses that are taken out of context.
The new groups looks like another kick at the can or throwing crap against the wall hoping for some stickiness. Nothing new or interesting at all.
I've always thought that sovcits are really anarcho-libertarians pretending what they believe is law.

Most anarcho-libertarians know full well that their politics are the way they think things ought to be, not the way they are.

The sovcit's self-delusion is the reason they are so decried.
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Old 25th May 2020, 01:49 PM   #39
The Great Zaganza
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They are cosplayers who can't tell fiction from reality.
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Old 25th May 2020, 03:43 PM   #40
gmanontario
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Originally Posted by The Great Zaganza View Post
They are cosplayers who can't tell fiction from reality.
Some SovCits have guns without orange caps on the barrels. Cosplayers are harmless, fun and serious about their schtick. To compare them with turdballs like SovCits is unfair.

I actually cant think of a group to compare them to without insulting a whole lotta people.
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