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Tags lawsuits , New York incidents , racism charges , racism incidents , school incidents

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Old 10th January 2020, 06:36 PM   #81
smartcooky
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Originally Posted by Newsday
"But Scott Twining, who said his five children were taught by the teacher under fire, said the slideshow had been a feature of the class for many years and students of all colors were included as a joke, not as a slur meant to harm. “They’re not racist,” he said of the slideshows, adding that he has black relatives and would not hesitate to allow them to be taught by Heinrichs. “They’re meant for fun.”
Its the 21st century... its a different world we live in now

This might have been an OK thing in the 1970s and 80s and perhaps even in the 1990s.... its not OK now, and whether or not you personally agree with the way society has changed, it has and you have to accept that there will be consequences for this kind of thing.
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Old 10th January 2020, 06:41 PM   #82
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Originally Posted by PhantomWolf View Post
As the Judge it wouldn't be up to you to say where the money was to go.
Originally Posted by PhantomWolf View Post
I'd also note that most Civil Trials in the US are determined by Juries, not Judges.
This was a Civil Trial, the judge awarded the damages

https://www.nytimes.com/2020/01/02/u...uit-award.html
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Old 10th January 2020, 07:24 PM   #83
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Originally Posted by smartcooky View Post
You see, your attitude, well meaning as it might be, is the type that allows this kind of crap to continue to happen. What you are suggesting here is targeting of the person who actually did this, and giving the school district a slap on the hand with a wet tram ticket, . . . . . .
Yes, this is a trivial case that doesn't warrant the ringing of the cash register.

Originally Posted by smartcooky View Post
Its the 21st century... its a different world we live in now

This might have been an OK thing in the 1970s and 80s and perhaps even in the 1990s.... its not OK now, and whether or not you personally agree with the way society has changed, it has and you have to accept that there will be consequences for this kind of thing.
It is a horrifying development. Something you post on the internet could even years later become a money fountain for somebody.
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Old 10th January 2020, 07:29 PM   #84
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We commonly read about juries that award enormous amounts of money. Then the judge drastically cuts the amount.

I'm curious about the psychology or laws behind this. Why do juries give away mega-jackpots and then judges just chop it way down?

I'm also curious if there is some record of the greatest chop-down. Something like the jury awarding $10 million and then the judge reducing it to $1,000.
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Old 10th January 2020, 08:10 PM   #85
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Originally Posted by psionl0 View Post
Yes, this is a trivial case that doesn't warrant the ringing of the cash register.
You're missing the point (and since you cherry picked what I posted, snipping out the explainer, I can only assume that you are missing it intentionally).

This might be a trivial case per se, but is it likely an indicator of deeper problems in the culture of that school district.

Originally Posted by psionl0 View Post
It is a horrifying development. Something you post on the internet could even years later become a money fountain for somebody.
Hyperbole much!
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Old 10th January 2020, 08:13 PM   #86
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Originally Posted by William Parcher View Post
We commonly read about juries that award enormous amounts of money. Then the judge drastically cuts the amount.

I'm curious about the psychology or laws behind this. Why do juries give away mega-jackpots and then judges just chop it way down?

I'm also curious if there is some record of the greatest chop-down. Something like the jury awarding $10 million and then the judge reducing it to $1,000.
The most famous example is that of Stella Liebeck who sued McDonald's in 1994 for serving her coffee that was too hot and was awarded $2.86M (later cut back to $160,000).

This lead to the publication of a list of similar frivolous lawsuits known as the "Stella Awards". However, an investigation by Snopes.com found that all of the cases listed were fabrications. It appears that most frivolous lawsuits are either thrown out or judged in favour of the defendant. The main issue with frivolous lawsuits is the cost of defending them and this has lead some states to implement a variety of tort reform laws.
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Old 10th January 2020, 08:14 PM   #87
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Originally Posted by smartcooky View Post
This was a Civil Trial, the judge awarded the damages

https://www.nytimes.com/2020/01/02/u...uit-award.html
Yeah, but this is one of the cases that was decided in front of a Judge rather than a Jury, hence why I said that "most" and not "all" of them were.

You will also note that the Judge awarded damages to the Plaintiffs and not to some random non-party, which was the initial issue.
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Old 10th January 2020, 08:15 PM   #88
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Originally Posted by smartcooky View Post
This might be a trivial case per se, but is it likely an indicator of deeper problems in the culture of that school district.
I didn't address that part of your post because you made that up.
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Old 10th January 2020, 08:20 PM   #89
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Originally Posted by Jimmy9 View Post
Monkey see, monkey do is an old saying for everyone.
People need to give this crap a rest.
See, here's the problem with that attitude (and I'm guessing you're probably white)

White people haven't had to endure generations of being cast as inferior, being oppressed, being enslaved, being discriminated against, being denied their civil rights, being at a continual disadvantage in Society as a whole.

Just because your white privilege and the preferred treatment your race has received historically makes you immune from racial insult, it doesn't necessarily follow that other races should also be immune.
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Old 10th January 2020, 08:23 PM   #90
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Originally Posted by psionl0 View Post
The most famous example is that of Stella Liebeck who sued McDonald's in 1994 for serving her coffee that was too hot and was awarded $2.86M (later cut back to $160,000).

This lead to the publication of a list of similar frivolous lawsuits known as the "Stella Awards". However, an investigation by Snopes.com found that all of the cases listed were fabrications. It appears that most frivolous lawsuits are either thrown out or judged in favour of the defendant. The main issue with frivolous lawsuits is the cost of defending them and this has lead some states to implement a variety of tort reform laws.
Just for reference, the suing of McDonalds for the spilled coffee was not actually a frivolous lawsuit. At the time McDonalds was serving coffee at a temperature above the Industry standard, and had been warned multiple times that it was capable of causing serve burns if spilled. There have been numerous threads discussing this case on this forum including this one here from 2009.
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Old 10th January 2020, 08:24 PM   #91
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Originally Posted by psionl0 View Post
I didn't address that part of your post because you made that up.
No, you snipped it because you were unable or unwilling or simply didn't have the courage to address those issues... but never mind; my previous experience debating you has informed me that there is no point in further debate with you.

I would be wasting my time.
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Old 10th January 2020, 08:28 PM   #92
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Originally Posted by Silly Green Monkey View Post
"Mary, you've been a good teacher for many years, but it's recently come to our attention that you single out black students for animal-themed pictures. That doesn't reflect well on us."
Is that the case? Have there been similar photos where the main difference has been that the students were white? If they treat everyone the same can they still be racist?
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Old 10th January 2020, 08:33 PM   #93
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Originally Posted by lionking View Post
Please tell me you are joking.

Tell you what, go to your nearest black neighbourhood and start calling random people monkeys. I hope your family has funeral insurance.
I don't see any reason to go around calling random people monkeys, completely out of context, but if I were to, I doubt it would result in murder.

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Old 10th January 2020, 08:37 PM   #94
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Originally Posted by rjh01 View Post
Is that the case? Have there been similar photos where the main difference has been that the students were white? If they treat everyone the same can they still be racist?
Is this post a joke?
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Old 10th January 2020, 08:40 PM   #95
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Originally Posted by William Parcher View Post
We commonly read about juries that award enormous amounts of money. Then the judge drastically cuts the amount.

I'm curious about the psychology or laws behind this. Why do juries give away mega-jackpots and then judges just chop it way down?

I'm also curious if there is some record of the greatest chop-down. Something like the jury awarding $10 million and then the judge reducing it to $1,000.
I'm not sure that it's really that common, and I suspect that when you hear about it, it is because it's unusual enough to make news headlines. The most common reason for cutting a Jury award is where punitive damages are considered excessive, which is considered about 4:1 of compensatory damages. Most often jury awards are reduced on Appeal rather than by the presiding Judge.
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Old 10th January 2020, 08:41 PM   #96
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Originally Posted by smartcooky View Post
See, here's the problem with that attitude (and I'm guessing you're probably white)

White people haven't had to endure generations of being cast as inferior, being oppressed, being enslaved, being discriminated against, being denied their civil rights, being at a continual disadvantage in Society as a whole.

Just because your white privilege and the preferred treatment your race has received historically makes you immune from racial insult, it doesn't necessarily follow that other races should also be immune.
When the EXACT same picture and pose and words have been applied to white students, it is not racial insult. In fact, it's racist to think it is.
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Old 10th January 2020, 08:42 PM   #97
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Originally Posted by rjh01 View Post
Is that the case? Have there been similar photos where the main difference has been that the students were white? If they treat everyone the same can they still be racist?
There have been identical photos by the same teacher with white students, yes. I agree with you that this alone negates any claims of racism.
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Old 10th January 2020, 08:49 PM   #98
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Originally Posted by Doghouse Reilly View Post
There have been identical photos by the same teacher with white students, yes. I agree with you that this alone negates any claims of racism.
a) post a link to them

b) how is this relevant, as white people haven't had generations of abuse by being dehumanised, with stupid monkey crap
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Old 10th January 2020, 08:49 PM   #99
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Originally Posted by rjh01 View Post
Is that the case? Have there been similar photos where the main difference has been that the students were white? If they treat everyone the same can they still be racist?
I can see where they were trying to make the Joke that Human are primates and so part of the same family as other great apes, and yeah, they might have done so with many other students all whom were white and it was never an issue. However that is because white people haven't historically been referred to as monkeys in a derogatory way. By putting four black students in the image, rather then a mixture of black and white, or only white, then the image plays into the stereotype and racial slur. It's like the difference between a picture of a white man standing in front of a tree with a noose hanging from it with the words "hang 'em high", and a picture of a black man standing in front of a tree with a noose hanging from it with the same words, or a picture of a man cooking with the words, his place is in the kitchen, compared to a picture of a woman with the same words.

It's a case of the connotations of the image and words, and these are different for white students and black students, and the teachers should have known this, and avoided them at all costs,. They didn't and now it's going to cost the school district and it's insurer a lot of money as punishment.
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Old 10th January 2020, 08:51 PM   #100
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The big thing that comes out of this for me if this was as some say an innocent mistake.

The US must have some of the dimmest, vacant teachers in the western world.
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Old 10th January 2020, 09:11 PM   #101
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Originally Posted by PhantomWolf View Post
I can see where they were trying to make the Joke that Human are primates and so part of the same family as other great apes, and yeah, they might have done so with many other students all whom were white and it was never an issue. However that is because white people haven't historically been referred to as monkeys in a derogatory way. By putting four black students in the image, rather then a mixture of black and white, or only white, then the image plays into the stereotype and racial slur. It's like the difference between a picture of a white man standing in front of a tree with a noose hanging from it with the words "hang 'em high", and a picture of a black man standing in front of a tree with a noose hanging from it with the same words, or a picture of a man cooking with the words, his place is in the kitchen, compared to a picture of a woman with the same words.

It's a case of the connotations of the image and words, and these are different for white students and black students, and the teachers should have known this, and avoided them at all costs,. They didn't and now it's going to cost the school district and it's insurer a lot of money as punishment.
^This! Very well explained.
Something okay when applied to one group can easily be racist and deeply offensive one applied to another. Absolutely!
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Old 10th January 2020, 09:15 PM   #102
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Originally Posted by Doghouse Reilly View Post
When the EXACT same picture and pose and words have been applied to white students, it is not racial insult. .

Yes, and when the EXACT same picture and pose and words have been applied to black students, it IS a racial insult. That is how the world works now - whether you like it or not. There is a long and disgraceful history of racists covertly using seemingly innocent phraseology as vitriolic speech, the use of common words giving them a form of plausible deniability. Context is everything.

If you were to hang a banana in a tree in this country, worldly as most New Zealanders are, MOST people would have utterly no idea of the significance. Do the same thing in the USA, and you'd be hard-pressed to find someone who didn't know it.

Call someone a "pikey" in America, most would be clueless as to the implications, but call them that in the UK, and you're likely to cop punch on the nose.
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Old 10th January 2020, 09:16 PM   #103
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Originally Posted by Doghouse Reilly View Post
I don't see any reason to go around calling random people monkeys, completely out of context, but if I were to, I doubt it would result in murder.
Why don’t you try it anyway? I’m certain you are a fine, non-racist citizen (actually I’m not certain, but for sake of argument) and you will be able to explain that because you are not racist, nobody should take offence.

Fair point about funeral insurance though. Hospital insurance should hopefully suffice.
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Old 10th January 2020, 09:17 PM   #104
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In the Newsday article:
“The four boys say, for now, they have been encouraged by the administration not to return to the science class and that they should expect to receive a grade of "incomplete" for the class.”

What? The kids get are ostracized from the class, are not given an alternative class, and are to be given incompletes?? The school as a whole appears incompetent and deserves whatever comes to them!
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Old 10th January 2020, 09:42 PM   #105
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Originally Posted by Giordano View Post
In the Newsday article:
“The four boys say, for now, they have been encouraged by the administration not to return to the science class and that they should expect to receive a grade of "incomplete" for the class.”

What? The kids get are ostracized from the class, are not given an alternative class, and are to be given incompletes?? The school as a whole appears incompetent and deserves whatever comes to them!
They are getting money instead and that makes it all right.
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Old 10th January 2020, 09:51 PM   #106
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Originally Posted by psionl0 View Post
They are getting money instead and that makes it all right.
Awesome.

You have inside knowledge they are getting the money.

How much are they getting?
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Old 10th January 2020, 09:57 PM   #107
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Originally Posted by psionl0 View Post
They are getting money instead and that makes it all right.
Are you arguing with yourself? Because I fail to see how this addresses any point that anyone has raised. There’s a word for posts like this. Several words actually.
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Old 10th January 2020, 10:00 PM   #108
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Originally Posted by cullennz View Post
a) post a link to them

b) how is this relevant, as white people haven't had generations of abuse by being dehumanised, with stupid monkey crap
Here is your link https://abc7ny.com/5827320/

Quote:
Parent Desmond Dent Sr. said he met with administrators and they showed him slideshows the teacher has done in the past of the class trip to the Bronx Zoo, which included white students doing the same pose with the same "monkey do" caption. Dent Sr. said administrators presented it to him to try to point out that the teacher didn't single out the African-American students.
This link with a similar quote was provided earlier.

So treating white students like this is ok, but if done on black ones this is racist? I would suggest that the photo is in poor taste and the colour of the students' skin is not relevant. If it is relevant then black students have special privileges.

One reason why four black students and not some white students were in the group could be because they were all friends. Interesting thought. Teacher setting up the photo saying "you cannot be in it, I need to put this white student in it. I do not want to be accused of racism." I would suggest that that would be racism.

Also remember that so far NO ONE has been sued over this. They may never be, let alone a substantial award given.

There is one way to make a case that this is discrimination, even though all students are treated the same way and that is indirect discrimination.
See this link for more information https://www.citizensadvice.org.uk/la...iscrimination/.
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Old 10th January 2020, 10:04 PM   #109
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Originally Posted by Norman Alexander View Post
Goes to show: In the USA, lawyers make VERY good money.
Not my first thought by a long shot.
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Old 10th January 2020, 10:05 PM   #110
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"So treating white students like this is ok, but if done on black ones this is racist?"

My god man.

I think you have it.....finally

Edit: When that specific reference is made
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Last edited by cullennz; 10th January 2020 at 10:07 PM.
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Old 10th January 2020, 10:05 PM   #111
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Originally Posted by Doghouse Reilly View Post
I don't see the problem, kids are often compared to monkeys, I was always called a monkey as a child, it was meant to be endearing. Because they're black they can't be playfully compared to monkeys? Why?
White privilege overload.
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Old 10th January 2020, 10:07 PM   #112
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Originally Posted by smartcooky View Post
Yes, and when the EXACT same picture and pose and words have been applied to black students, it IS a racial insult. That is how the world works now - whether you like it or not. There is a long and disgraceful history of racists covertly using seemingly innocent phraseology as vitriolic speech, the use of common words giving them a form of plausible deniability. Context is everything.

If you were to hang a banana in a tree in this country, worldly as most New Zealanders are, MOST people would have utterly no idea of the significance. Do the same thing in the USA, and you'd be hard-pressed to find someone who didn't know it.

Call someone a "pikey" in America, most would be clueless as to the implications, but call them that in the UK, and you're likely to cop punch on the nose.
Its 2020 and this still has to be explained.
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Old 10th January 2020, 10:13 PM   #113
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Originally Posted by rjh01 View Post
Here is your link https://abc7ny.com/5827320/


This link with a similar quote was provided earlier.

So treating white students like this is ok, but if done on black ones this is racist? I would suggest that the photo is in poor taste and the colour of the students' skin is not relevant. If it is relevant then black students have special privileges.

One reason why four black students and not some white students were in the group could be because they were all friends. Interesting thought. Teacher setting up the photo saying "you cannot be in it, I need to put this white student in it. I do not want to be accused of racism." I would suggest that that would be racism.

Also remember that so far NO ONE has been sued over this. They may never be, let alone a substantial award given.

There is one way to make a case that this is discrimination, even though all students are treated the same way and that is indirect discrimination.
See this link for more information https://www.citizensadvice.org.uk/la...iscrimination/.
Just had to check my calendar. Yes it is 2020, not 1975 as it appears from posts like this.

And action will proceed unless sense prevails and the school settles beforehand.
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Old 10th January 2020, 10:15 PM   #114
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Originally Posted by cullennz View Post
Awesome.

You have inside knowledge they are getting the money.

How much are they getting?
The school is being sued for $12M.

Sure, the lawyers will make a big fist about the black oppression angle (that's what they get paid for) but now it's all about the money.
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Old 10th January 2020, 10:17 PM   #115
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Originally Posted by Sideroxylon View Post
Its 2020 and this still has to be explained.
Yep, and is bloody disappointing to see it on a forum of supposedly intelligent, well-informed skeptics.
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Old 10th January 2020, 10:18 PM   #116
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Originally Posted by psionl0 View Post
The school is being sued for $12M.

Yes.

Which hasn't been won or lost.

But you said they were getting the money
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Old 10th January 2020, 10:20 PM   #117
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Originally Posted by psionl0 View Post
The school is being sued for $12M.

Sure, the lawyers will make a big fist about the black oppression angle (that's what they get paid for) but now it's all about the money.
Well the racism can’t be undone and the school has not apologised, so punishment will be financial. Seems fair to me.
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Old 10th January 2020, 10:27 PM   #118
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I wonder how the other students at that school now relate to these four boys. There would probably be a mixture of support and hostility. This teacher seems very popular there with lots of supporters. The four might be treated harshly by other students because they are essentially ousting this teacher and also suing the school for huge money.

It could get worse than it is now.
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Old 10th January 2020, 10:32 PM   #119
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Originally Posted by psionl0 View Post
The school is being sued for $12M.

<snip>
Incorrect. No one is being sued. They have said they WILL sue. Whether it actually happens is another thing.

But you are not the first in this thread to have made that mistake.
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Old 10th January 2020, 10:34 PM   #120
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Originally Posted by William Parcher View Post
I wonder how the other students at that school now relate to these four boys. There would probably be a mixture of support and hostility. This teacher seems very popular there with lots of supporters. The four might be treated harshly by other students because they are essentially ousting this teacher and also suing the school for huge money.

It could get worse than it is now.
All of which is because they say they are going to sue the school.

And it is ok for the photo to be reproduced? How is that not racism?
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