Monkey See. Monkey Do. Oops $12 million. - Page 6

PhantomWolf · 11th January 2020, 05:02 PM

Originally Posted by psionl0

This is sheer lunacy! When did political correctness drown out freedom of speech?

This "we will not stop until everybody is afraid to open their mouth" madness is everything that is wrong with this world.

Freedom of Speech is NOT Freedom from consequences, and also ONLY applies to the Government taking CRIMINAL actions.

You can say what you like, and other people can sue the pants off you for it if you breach civil laws and rights such as defamation or equal protections.

Giordano · 11th January 2020, 06:28 PM

^This. And teachers especially do not have the right, within their responsibilities as teachers, to bully students of any “race,” or to be so unaware/uncaring of fundamental memes of racial bigotry as to employ them so blatantly.

Freedom of speech does not mean that one can be nasty, insensitive, and ignorant at your job while expecting continued employment.

Beyond this, frankly IMHO I don’t see the right to insult other people as being one of the most crucial freedoms of speech...

cullennz · 11th January 2020, 06:43 PM

Probably just me, as we didn't have it, but I actually find the whole taking photos of the kids on trips thing a bit weird.

Get from the thread it is a normal thing some places.

William Parcher · 11th January 2020, 07:00 PM

Originally Posted by cullennz

taking photos of the kids on trips thing a bit weird.

High school yearbooks use photos of students and activities and such. A treasure for life.

TragicMonkey · 11th January 2020, 07:04 PM

Originally Posted by William Parcher

High school yearbooks use photos of students and activities and such. A treasure for life.

I burned mine! A fitting end to a dreadful period of time with truly awful people. Looking back from a mellow middle-age I can only hope, with all the sincerity and serenity of which I am capable, that all of those other people are dead now.

cullennz · 11th January 2020, 07:30 PM

Originally Posted by William Parcher

High school yearbooks use photos of students and activities and such. A treasure for life.

Fair enough

We didn't have high school year books, but have seen them in movies/tv etc.

We just had kind of group class photos where everyone poses like a sports team

William Parcher · 11th January 2020, 07:34 PM

Originally Posted by TragicMonkey

all of those other people are dead now.

That's an unfortunate attitude. Some kids with that same attitude take guns to school and blast away. It's horrible.

TragicMonkey · 11th January 2020, 07:42 PM

Originally Posted by William Parcher

That's an unfortunate attitude. Some kids with that same attitude take guns to school and blast away. It's horrible.

If any kids develop time travel and go back in time to shoot up my high school in the mid 90s I'll accept moral responsibility.

psionl0 · 11th January 2020, 09:56 PM

Originally Posted by PhantomWolf

Freedom of Speech is NOT Freedom from consequences, and also ONLY applies to the Government taking CRIMINAL actions.

You can say what you like, and other people can sue the pants off you for it if you breach civil laws and rights such as defamation or equal protections.

Then you don't have freedom of speech.

cullennz · 11th January 2020, 09:59 PM

Originally Posted by psionl0

Then you don't have freedom of speech.

Care to elaborate?

psionl0 · 11th January 2020, 10:19 PM

Originally Posted by cullennz

Care to elaborate?

This has been debated endlessly. If you knowingly and maliciously make a false statement then somebody who is harmed by it can sue for redress. Revealing classified information is also not covered under "free speech" (since you presumably gave that undertaking when you received that information or you obtained it illegally).

Merely stating an opinion should never be subject to such restrictions. Otherwise you would be handing the keys to the asylum to the lunatics. We would have the crazy situation where anybody who felt offended by your opinion could take you to court and sue you for millions of dollars.

psionl0 · 11th January 2020, 10:24 PM

Originally Posted by Babbylonian

Couldn't you have just said "suck it up, weaklings" and saved yourself some time?

I wouldn't go that far - although there are people who would. At least, that's what others have told me in the past.

I learned a long time ago that nobody cares how I feel.

cullennz · 11th January 2020, 10:41 PM

Originally Posted by psionl0

This has been debated endlessly. If you knowingly and maliciously make a false statement then somebody who is harmed by it can sue for redress. Revealing classified information is also not covered under "free speech" (since you presumably gave that undertaking when you received that information or you obtained it illegally).

Merely stating an opinion should never be subject to such restrictions. Otherwise you would be handing the keys to the asylum to the lunatics. We would have the crazy situation where anybody who felt offended by your opinion could take you to court and sue you for millions of dollars.

So you don't think the teacher

"knowingly and maliciously make a false statement then somebody who is harmed by it "

By comparing black kids to monkeys, who must have known the connotations.

cullennz · 11th January 2020, 10:43 PM

Unless of course the teachers in the US are the thickest people around.

Good luck with the kids if this is the case

Sideroxylon · 11th January 2020, 11:59 PM

Originally Posted by psionl0

I wouldn't go that far - although there are people who would. At least, that's what others have told me in the past.

I learned a long time ago that nobody cares how I feel.

That is sad but it doesn’t have to be like that.

PhantomWolf · 12th January 2020, 05:28 AM

Originally Posted by psionl0

If you knowingly and maliciously make a false statement then somebody who is harmed by it can sue for redress.

I am guessing then if I got a photo of you and posted it to the internet with the words "Pedo-Guy" on it, then as long as it was just a joke and no harm meant, you'd be all fine with it?

Giordano · 12th January 2020, 09:57 AM

Originally Posted by psionl0

Then you don't have freedom of speech.

We don't. Not by your definition. Never did.

Giordano · 12th January 2020, 10:00 AM

Originally Posted by psionl0

This has been debated endlessly. If you knowingly and maliciously make a false statement then somebody who is harmed by it can sue for redress. Revealing classified information is also not covered under "free speech" (since you presumably gave that undertaking when you received that information or you obtained it illegally).

Merely stating an opinion should never be subject to such restrictions. Otherwise you would be handing the keys to the asylum to the lunatics. We would have the crazy situation where anybody who felt offended by your opinion could take you to court and sue you for millions of dollars.

Try telling your boss he/she is an idiot. Just an opinion... Or that your 6 year old students should tortured and killed. Just an opinion...

Sorry, opinions do have consequences. Particularly in terms of a work environment, but often beyond that as well.

Distracted1 · 12th January 2020, 10:02 AM

Originally Posted by PhantomWolf

I am guessing then if I got a photo of you and posted it to the internet with the words "Pedo-Guy" on it, then as long as it was just a joke and no harm meant, you'd be all fine with it?

I think for your example to have merit it would need to be self-evident from the image that the pictured person was not a part of the class you choose for your label.

Perhaps a picture of your target labeled a "dog" or some such.

Giordano · 12th January 2020, 10:04 AM

Originally Posted by cullennz

Unless of course the teachers in the US are the thickest people around.

Good luck with the kids if this is the case

Some are. Some are brilliant. My kids were in public school K - 12 and some significant part of my role as parent was to hope they got the latter as teachers, but if they got the former to find ways of compensating. Of course I tried to influence the choices of teachers in the few subtle ways available to me, but usually that was not possible.

Giordano · 12th January 2020, 10:05 AM

Originally Posted by psionl0

I wouldn't go that far - although there are people who would. At least, that's what others have told me in the past.

I learned a long time ago that nobody cares how I feel.

Actually I do, and I usually enjoy reading your posts. I don't agree with all of them, but that doesn't mean I don't care or don't value them.

psionl0 · 12th January 2020, 12:07 PM

Originally Posted by PhantomWolf

I am guessing then if I got a photo of you and posted it to the internet with the words "Pedo-Guy" on it, then as long as it was just a joke and no harm meant, you'd be all fine with it?

What a malicious thing to make up!

PhantomWolf · 12th January 2020, 01:11 PM

Originally Posted by psionl0

What a malicious thing to make up!

It's not malicious, it's a joke, just like calling a Black person a monkey, so what's the harm?

PhantomWolf · 12th January 2020, 01:13 PM

Originally Posted by Distracted1

I think for your example to have merit it would need to be self-evident from the image that the pictured person was not a part of the class you choose for your label.

Perhaps a picture of your target labeled a "dog" or some such.

Problem here is that the pictured people in the OP are part of the class that have been repeated racially slurred as Monkeys throughout history, so no, my example is apt.

Distracted1 · 12th January 2020, 01:33 PM

Originally Posted by PhantomWolf

Problem here is that the pictured people in the OP are part of the class that have been repeated racially slurred as Monkeys throughout history, so no, my example is apt.

No it is not.
Although the term has been used as an insult, it is not possible to conclude from an image that the maligned actually are monkeys. However, it is not possible to discern from an image that a person pictured is clearly not a pedophile.
Your labeling it thus has a potential to create harm that a clearly untrue accusation does not have.

Or do you assert that labeling the boys in question "pedophiles" would not be an act of greater consequence to them than putting "monkey do" above their picture (following the "monkey see" image) ?

Thermal · 12th January 2020, 03:40 PM

Originally Posted by Giordano

When black people are described as monkeys or linked to monkeys I think immediately of the long history of the meme being used in a racist fashion. Decades, hundreds of years of its use in this fashion. It hasn't disappeared by any means (in fact I see it recently expanding once again as politicians have sought to play to racist groups for support). Do you think that the kids and their parents somehow were unaware of it as a racial insult and had to be told about the problem by someone over 60 years old?

Were you unaware of it and were shocked to learn of the racist connection by this thread?

Fair question. When seeing the thread title, I assumed some kind of business tried to rip off another business model and got slammed with a $12mil suit.

And no one is claiming they are shocked. It is more that it is not a common racial thing. Look at Wikipedia's entry for the expression. No mention of racist usage or connotations. Wiki gone white power too, I suppose?

Originally Posted by Giordano

In thread after thread, at least according to a few posters, no matter what occurs there is no evidence of it being racism. Apparently the black people involved in these incidents who do believe that racism has taken place are wrong; just over-sensitive and/or incited by others to leap to the wrong conclusion and "play the race card."

Thankfully we white people know better and that most racism has disappeared! Certainly we don't see it...

Having lived through the 1960s I am reminded by a very common response by those in opposition to the civil rights movement at that time, "Its all those outside agitators! We whites and them "racial slurs" got along just fine until those communists, Jews, and Northerns came down and started putting ideas into their heads."

Well, speaking as one o' them thar Northerns, this tale is solidly in the 'leaping to the wrong conclusion' pile. I mean, come on...monkey see, monkey do? Google the term, and see how many kid programs and yoga studios and everything else under the sun shares this name. But just this one usage is racist (while parents and students of all colors flood the hearing in support of them)?

Here again, it does not reflect on whether racism exists, despite your straw assertion. The argument is that this is a lousy example if someone wishes to show racism on the hoof.

cullennz · 12th January 2020, 03:58 PM

Originally Posted by Thermal

Fair question. When seeing the thread title, I assumed some kind of business tried to rip off another business model and got slammed with a $12mil suit.

And no one is claiming they are shocked. It is more that it is not a common racial thing. Look at Wikipedia's entry for the expression. No mention of racist usage or connotations. Wiki gone white power too, I suppose?

Well, speaking as one o' them thar Northerns, this tale is solidly in the 'leaping to the wrong conclusion' pile. I mean, come on...monkey see, monkey do? Google the term, and see how many kid programs and yoga studios and everything else under the sun shares this name. But just this one usage is racist (while parents and students of all colors flood the hearing in support of them)?

Here again, it does not reflect on whether racism exists, despite your straw assertion. The argument is that this is a lousy example if someone wishes to show racism on the hoof.

"Google the term"

Try googling black people monkey and learn some facts about it

Sideroxylon · 12th January 2020, 05:21 PM

Originally Posted by Thermal

Fair question. When seeing the thread title, I assumed some kind of business tried to rip off another business model and got slammed with a $12mil suit.

And no one is claiming they are shocked. It is more that it is not a common racial thing. Look at Wikipedia's entry for the expression. No mention of racist usage or connotations. Wiki gone white power too, I suppose?

Well, speaking as one o' them thar Northerns, this tale is solidly in the 'leaping to the wrong conclusion' pile. I mean, come on...monkey see, monkey do? Google the term, and see how many kid programs and yoga studios and everything else under the sun shares this name. But just this one usage is racist (while parents and students of all colors flood the hearing in support of them)?

Here again, it does not reflect on whether racism exists, despite your straw assertion. The argument is that this is a lousy example if someone wishes to show racism on the hoof.

This bit is amazingly obtuse. An exercise in missing the point, which I will not labour any further.

Giordano · 12th January 2020, 05:26 PM

Originally Posted by cullennz

"Google the term"

Try googling black people monkey and learn some facts about it

That was going to be my suggestion too.
The problem was not that the general term “monkey see monkey do,” was a racist meme, but using it to label a picture of black children was...

I think this has been explained before in this thread...

pgwenthold · 12th January 2020, 06:40 PM

Originally Posted by Giordano

That was going to be my suggestion too.
The problem was not that the general term “monkey see monkey do,” was a racist meme, but using it to label a picture of black children was...

I think this has been explained before in this thread...

You know, this topic pops up every couple of months, and every time, it always has to be explained that comparing black people to monkeys is a common racist trope!

cullennz · 12th January 2020, 06:52 PM

Tbf without naming names there is a fair bit of purposefully obtuseness (may have made up a word) that goes on here.

Thermal · 12th January 2020, 07:42 PM

Originally Posted by cullennz

"Google the term"

Try googling black people monkey and learn some facts about it

Yeah, we know. We all know. But it's not what we are talking about.

Any reference to monkeys does not automatically mean racism. I've heard there are these cats called 'skeptics' who value this jazz called 'context'. The context here is a science teacher who has used this goofy monkey do thing for like a decade with kids of different races. At the hearing, the place overflowed with support for him, from people of all colors. That says to me that this example is not racist. It was innocent, if stupid, as some of these turn out to be.

But what do we do with a day care called 'Monkey Do'? Should we recommend to the owners not to accept black students, lest they be pictured under the school's signage, and the owner accused of being a hateful racist?

Should the owner of Monkey Do Yoga refuse to sell a t-shirt to a black member? Think about it; the reasoning is going off the rails.

Giordano · 12th January 2020, 07:57 PM

Originally Posted by cullennz

Tbf without naming names there is a fair bit of purposefully obtuseness (may have made up a word) that goes on here.

Yes indeed.

JoeMorgue · 12th January 2020, 07:59 PM

Yes the "Oh please remind me again that this is bad, as if we've never had this discussion before" thing we have to do every time this topic comes up.

JoeMorgue · 12th January 2020, 08:07 PM

I'd ask what exactly about calling black people monkeys is so important to people that it has to be defended, but I already know I'd just get a bunch of unrelated rants about PC snowflakes and everyone being offended all the time which aren't answers to that question.

cullennz · 12th January 2020, 08:14 PM

Originally Posted by Thermal

Yeah, we know. We all know. But it's not what we are talking about.

Any reference to monkeys does not automatically mean racism. I've heard there are these cats called 'skeptics' who value this jazz called 'context'. The context here is a science teacher who has used this goofy monkey do thing for like a decade with kids of different races. At the hearing, the place overflowed with support for him, from people of all colors. That says to me that this example is not racist. It was innocent, if stupid, as some of these turn out to be.

But what do we do with a day care called 'Monkey Do'? Should we recommend to the owners not to accept black students, lest they be pictured under the school's signage, and the owner accused of being a hateful racist?

Should the owner of Monkey Do Yoga refuse to sell a t-shirt to a black member? Think about it; the reasoning is going off the rails.

We are talking about this case, not some business people can chose to go to or not.

Alright then. Let's say it was a completely innocent mistake.

Do you want people that thick teaching your kids?

Thermal · 12th January 2020, 08:35 PM

Originally Posted by cullennz

We are talking about this case, not some business people can chose to go to or not.

Alright then. Let's say it was a completely innocent mistake.

Do you want people that thick teaching your kids?

Based on the reported outpouring of support, yeah, I think he sounds like a teacher that touched a lot of lives.

cullennz · 12th January 2020, 08:42 PM

Originally Posted by Thermal

Based on the reported outpouring of support, yeah, I think he sounds like a teacher that touched a lot of lives.

Fair enough.

Disagree but fair enough.

psionl0 · 12th January 2020, 10:30 PM

Originally Posted by PhantomWolf

It's not malicious, it's a joke, just like calling a Black person a monkey, so what's the harm?

I say it's a malicious attempt to defame me with false information and cause me harm.

PhantomWolf · 12th January 2020, 11:04 PM

Originally Posted by psionl0

I say it's a malicious attempt to defame me with false information and cause me harm.

Quashing freedom of speech then, or do you also accept that Blacks put in a photo that refers to them as Monkeys might also consider that "a malicious attempt to defame with false information and cause harm."

11th January 2020, 05:02 PM	#201
PhantomWolf Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Mar 2007 Posts: 20,116	Originally Posted by psionl0 This is sheer lunacy! When did political correctness drown out freedom of speech? This "we will not stop until everybody is afraid to open their mouth" madness is everything that is wrong with this world. Freedom of Speech is NOT Freedom from consequences, and also ONLY applies to the Government taking CRIMINAL actions. You can say what you like, and other people can sue the pants off you for it if you breach civil laws and rights such as defamation or equal protections.
	__________________ It must be fun to lead a life completely unburdened by reality. -- JayUtah I am not able to rightly apprehend the kind of confusion of ideas that could provoke such a question. -- Charles Babbage (1791-1871)

11th January 2020, 06:43 PM	#203
cullennz Suspended Join Date: Sep 2006 Posts: 19,688	Probably just me, as we didn't have it, but I actually find the whole taking photos of the kids on trips thing a bit weird. Get from the thread it is a normal thing some places.
cullennz Suspended Join Date: Sep 2006 Posts: 19,688

11th January 2020, 07:00 PM	#204
William Parcher Show me the monkey! Join Date: Jul 2005 Posts: 25,729	Originally Posted by cullennz taking photos of the kids on trips thing a bit weird. High school yearbooks use photos of students and activities and such. A treasure for life.
	__________________ Bigfoot believers and Bigfoot skeptics are both plumb crazy. Each spends more than one minute per year thinking about Bigfoot.

11th January 2020, 07:04 PM	#205
TragicMonkey Poisoned Waffles Join Date: Jun 2004 Location: Monkey Posts: 58,972	Originally Posted by William Parcher High school yearbooks use photos of students and activities and such. A treasure for life. I burned mine! A fitting end to a dreadful period of time with truly awful people. Looking back from a mellow middle-age I can only hope, with all the sincerity and serenity of which I am capable, that all of those other people are dead now.
	__________________ You added nothing to that conversation, Barbara.

11th January 2020, 07:30 PM	#206
cullennz Suspended Join Date: Sep 2006 Posts: 19,688	Originally Posted by William Parcher High school yearbooks use photos of students and activities and such. A treasure for life. Fair enough We didn't have high school year books, but have seen them in movies/tv etc. We just had kind of group class photos where everyone poses like a sports team
cullennz Suspended Join Date: Sep 2006 Posts: 19,688

11th January 2020, 06:28 PM	#202
Giordano Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Apr 2011 Posts: 17,646	^This. And teachers especially do not have the right, within their responsibilities as teachers, to bully students of any “race,” or to be so unaware/uncaring of fundamental memes of racial bigotry as to employ them so blatantly. Freedom of speech does not mean that one can be nasty, insensitive, and ignorant at your job while expecting continued employment. Beyond this, frankly IMHO I don’t see the right to insult other people as being one of the most crucial freedoms of speech...

11th January 2020, 07:34 PM	#207
William Parcher Show me the monkey! Join Date: Jul 2005 Posts: 25,729	Originally Posted by TragicMonkey all of those other people are dead now. That's an unfortunate attitude. Some kids with that same attitude take guns to school and blast away. It's horrible.
	__________________ Bigfoot believers and Bigfoot skeptics are both plumb crazy. Each spends more than one minute per year thinking about Bigfoot.

11th January 2020, 07:42 PM	#208
TragicMonkey Poisoned Waffles Join Date: Jun 2004 Location: Monkey Posts: 58,972	Originally Posted by William Parcher That's an unfortunate attitude. Some kids with that same attitude take guns to school and blast away. It's horrible. If any kids develop time travel and go back in time to shoot up my high school in the mid 90s I'll accept moral responsibility.
	__________________ You added nothing to that conversation, Barbara.

11th January 2020, 09:56 PM	#209
psionl0 Skeptical about skeptics Join Date: Sep 2010 Location: 31°57'S 115°57'E Posts: 16,879	Originally Posted by PhantomWolf Freedom of Speech is NOT Freedom from consequences, and also ONLY applies to the Government taking CRIMINAL actions. You can say what you like, and other people can sue the pants off you for it if you breach civil laws and rights such as defamation or equal protections. Then you don't have freedom of speech.
	__________________ "The process by which banks create money is so simple that the mind is repelled. Where something so important is involved, a deeper mystery seems only decent." - Galbraith, 1975

11th January 2020, 09:59 PM	#210
cullennz Suspended Join Date: Sep 2006 Posts: 19,688	Originally Posted by psionl0 Then you don't have freedom of speech. Care to elaborate?
cullennz Suspended Join Date: Sep 2006 Posts: 19,688

11th January 2020, 10:19 PM	#211
psionl0 Skeptical about skeptics Join Date: Sep 2010 Location: 31°57'S 115°57'E Posts: 16,879	Originally Posted by cullennz Care to elaborate? This has been debated endlessly. If you knowingly and maliciously make a false statement then somebody who is harmed by it can sue for redress. Revealing classified information is also not covered under "free speech" (since you presumably gave that undertaking when you received that information or you obtained it illegally). Merely stating an opinion should never be subject to such restrictions. Otherwise you would be handing the keys to the asylum to the lunatics. We would have the crazy situation where anybody who felt offended by your opinion could take you to court and sue you for millions of dollars.
	__________________ "The process by which banks create money is so simple that the mind is repelled. Where something so important is involved, a deeper mystery seems only decent." - Galbraith, 1975 Last edited by psionl0; 11th January 2020 at 10:20 PM.

11th January 2020, 10:24 PM	#212
psionl0 Skeptical about skeptics Join Date: Sep 2010 Location: 31°57'S 115°57'E Posts: 16,879	Originally Posted by Babbylonian Couldn't you have just said "suck it up, weaklings" and saved yourself some time? I wouldn't go that far - although there are people who would. At least, that's what others have told me in the past. I learned a long time ago that nobody cares how I feel.
	__________________ "The process by which banks create money is so simple that the mind is repelled. Where something so important is involved, a deeper mystery seems only decent." - Galbraith, 1975

11th January 2020, 10:41 PM	#213
cullennz Suspended Join Date: Sep 2006 Posts: 19,688	Originally Posted by psionl0 This has been debated endlessly. If you knowingly and maliciously make a false statement then somebody who is harmed by it can sue for redress. Revealing classified information is also not covered under "free speech" (since you presumably gave that undertaking when you received that information or you obtained it illegally). Merely stating an opinion should never be subject to such restrictions. Otherwise you would be handing the keys to the asylum to the lunatics. We would have the crazy situation where anybody who felt offended by your opinion could take you to court and sue you for millions of dollars. So you don't think the teacher "knowingly and maliciously make a false statement then somebody who is harmed by it " By comparing black kids to monkeys, who must have known the connotations.
cullennz Suspended Join Date: Sep 2006 Posts: 19,688

11th January 2020, 10:43 PM	#214
cullennz Suspended Join Date: Sep 2006 Posts: 19,688	Unless of course the teachers in the US are the thickest people around. Good luck with the kids if this is the case
cullennz Suspended Join Date: Sep 2006 Posts: 19,688

11th January 2020, 11:59 PM	#215
Sideroxylon Featherless biped Join Date: Aug 2008 Location: Aporia Posts: 24,137	Originally Posted by psionl0 I wouldn't go that far - although there are people who would. At least, that's what others have told me in the past. I learned a long time ago that nobody cares how I feel. That is sad but it doesn’t have to be like that.

12th January 2020, 05:28 AM	#216
PhantomWolf Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Mar 2007 Posts: 20,116	Originally Posted by psionl0 If you knowingly and maliciously make a false statement then somebody who is harmed by it can sue for redress. I am guessing then if I got a photo of you and posted it to the internet with the words "Pedo-Guy" on it, then as long as it was just a joke and no harm meant, you'd be all fine with it?
	__________________ It must be fun to lead a life completely unburdened by reality. -- JayUtah I am not able to rightly apprehend the kind of confusion of ideas that could provoke such a question. -- Charles Babbage (1791-1871)

12th January 2020, 09:57 AM	#217
Giordano Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Apr 2011 Posts: 17,646	Originally Posted by psionl0 Then you don't have freedom of speech. We don't. Not by your definition. Never did.

12th January 2020, 10:00 AM	#218
Giordano Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Apr 2011 Posts: 17,646	Originally Posted by psionl0 This has been debated endlessly. If you knowingly and maliciously make a false statement then somebody who is harmed by it can sue for redress. Revealing classified information is also not covered under "free speech" (since you presumably gave that undertaking when you received that information or you obtained it illegally). Merely stating an opinion should never be subject to such restrictions. Otherwise you would be handing the keys to the asylum to the lunatics. We would have the crazy situation where anybody who felt offended by your opinion could take you to court and sue you for millions of dollars. Try telling your boss he/she is an idiot. Just an opinion... Or that your 6 year old students should tortured and killed. Just an opinion... Sorry, opinions do have consequences. Particularly in terms of a work environment, but often beyond that as well.

12th January 2020, 10:02 AM	#219
Distracted1 Philosopher Join Date: Dec 2007 Location: Philadelphia Posts: 5,204	Originally Posted by PhantomWolf I am guessing then if I got a photo of you and posted it to the internet with the words "Pedo-Guy" on it, then as long as it was just a joke and no harm meant, you'd be all fine with it? I think for your example to have merit it would need to be self-evident from the image that the pictured person was not a part of the class you choose for your label. Perhaps a picture of your target labeled a "dog" or some such.
	__________________ The man with one watch knows what time it is, the man with two watches is never sure.

12th January 2020, 10:04 AM	#220
Giordano Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Apr 2011 Posts: 17,646	Originally Posted by cullennz Unless of course the teachers in the US are the thickest people around. Good luck with the kids if this is the case Some are. Some are brilliant. My kids were in public school K - 12 and some significant part of my role as parent was to hope they got the latter as teachers, but if they got the former to find ways of compensating. Of course I tried to influence the choices of teachers in the few subtle ways available to me, but usually that was not possible.

12th January 2020, 10:05 AM	#221
Giordano Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Apr 2011 Posts: 17,646	Originally Posted by psionl0 I wouldn't go that far - although there are people who would. At least, that's what others have told me in the past. I learned a long time ago that nobody cares how I feel. Actually I do, and I usually enjoy reading your posts. I don't agree with all of them, but that doesn't mean I don't care or don't value them.

12th January 2020, 12:07 PM	#222
psionl0 Skeptical about skeptics Join Date: Sep 2010 Location: 31°57'S 115°57'E Posts: 16,879	Originally Posted by PhantomWolf I am guessing then if I got a photo of you and posted it to the internet with the words "Pedo-Guy" on it, then as long as it was just a joke and no harm meant, you'd be all fine with it? What a malicious thing to make up!
	__________________ "The process by which banks create money is so simple that the mind is repelled. Where something so important is involved, a deeper mystery seems only decent." - Galbraith, 1975

12th January 2020, 01:11 PM	#223
PhantomWolf Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Mar 2007 Posts: 20,116	Originally Posted by psionl0 What a malicious thing to make up! It's not malicious, it's a joke, just like calling a Black person a monkey, so what's the harm?
	__________________ It must be fun to lead a life completely unburdened by reality. -- JayUtah I am not able to rightly apprehend the kind of confusion of ideas that could provoke such a question. -- Charles Babbage (1791-1871)

12th January 2020, 01:13 PM	#224
PhantomWolf Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Mar 2007 Posts: 20,116	Originally Posted by Distracted1 I think for your example to have merit it would need to be self-evident from the image that the pictured person was not a part of the class you choose for your label. Perhaps a picture of your target labeled a "dog" or some such. Problem here is that the pictured people in the OP are part of the class that have been repeated racially slurred as Monkeys throughout history, so no, my example is apt.
	__________________ It must be fun to lead a life completely unburdened by reality. -- JayUtah I am not able to rightly apprehend the kind of confusion of ideas that could provoke such a question. -- Charles Babbage (1791-1871)

12th January 2020, 01:33 PM	#225
Distracted1 Philosopher Join Date: Dec 2007 Location: Philadelphia Posts: 5,204	Originally Posted by PhantomWolf Problem here is that the pictured people in the OP are part of the class that have been repeated racially slurred as Monkeys throughout history, so no, my example is apt. No it is not. Although the term has been used as an insult, it is not possible to conclude from an image that the maligned actually are monkeys. However, it is not possible to discern from an image that a person pictured is clearly not a pedophile. Your labeling it thus has a potential to create harm that a clearly untrue accusation does not have. Or do you assert that labeling the boys in question "pedophiles" would not be an act of greater consequence to them than putting "monkey do" above their picture (following the "monkey see" image) ?
	__________________ The man with one watch knows what time it is, the man with two watches is never sure. Last edited by Distracted1; 12th January 2020 at 01:36 PM.

12th January 2020, 03:40 PM	#226
Thermal Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Aug 2016 Location: East Coast USA Posts: 13,113	Originally Posted by Giordano When black people are described as monkeys or linked to monkeys I think immediately of the long history of the meme being used in a racist fashion. Decades, hundreds of years of its use in this fashion. It hasn't disappeared by any means (in fact I see it recently expanding once again as politicians have sought to play to racist groups for support). Do you think that the kids and their parents somehow were unaware of it as a racial insult and had to be told about the problem by someone over 60 years old? Were you unaware of it and were shocked to learn of the racist connection by this thread? Fair question. When seeing the thread title, I assumed some kind of business tried to rip off another business model and got slammed with a $12mil suit. And no one is claiming they are shocked. It is more that it is not a common racial thing. Look at Wikipedia's entry for the expression. No mention of racist usage or connotations. Wiki gone white power too, I suppose? Originally Posted by Giordano In thread after thread, at least according to a few posters, no matter what occurs there is no evidence of it being racism. Apparently the black people involved in these incidents who do believe that racism has taken place are wrong; just over-sensitive and/or incited by others to leap to the wrong conclusion and "play the race card." Thankfully we white people know better and that most racism has disappeared! Certainly we don't see it... Having lived through the 1960s I am reminded by a very common response by those in opposition to the civil rights movement at that time, "Its all those outside agitators! We whites and them "racial slurs" got along just fine until those communists, Jews, and Northerns came down and started putting ideas into their heads." Well, speaking as one o' them thar Northerns, this tale is solidly in the 'leaping to the wrong conclusion' pile. I mean, come on...monkey see, monkey do? Google the term, and see how many kid programs and yoga studios and everything else under the sun shares this name. But just this one usage is racist (while parents and students of all colors flood the hearing in support of them)? Here again, it does not reflect on whether racism exists, despite your straw assertion. The argument is that this is a lousy example if someone wishes to show racism on the hoof.
	__________________ We find comfort among those who agree with us, growth among those who don't -Frank A. Clark Whenever you find yourself on the side of the majority, it is time to pause and reflect -Mark Twain

12th January 2020, 03:58 PM	#227
cullennz Suspended Join Date: Sep 2006 Posts: 19,688	Originally Posted by Thermal Fair question. When seeing the thread title, I assumed some kind of business tried to rip off another business model and got slammed with a $12mil suit. And no one is claiming they are shocked. It is more that it is not a common racial thing. Look at Wikipedia's entry for the expression. No mention of racist usage or connotations. Wiki gone white power too, I suppose? Well, speaking as one o' them thar Northerns, this tale is solidly in the 'leaping to the wrong conclusion' pile. I mean, come on...monkey see, monkey do? Google the term, and see how many kid programs and yoga studios and everything else under the sun shares this name. But just this one usage is racist (while parents and students of all colors flood the hearing in support of them)? Here again, it does not reflect on whether racism exists, despite your straw assertion. The argument is that this is a lousy example if someone wishes to show racism on the hoof. "Google the term" Try googling black people monkey and learn some facts about it
cullennz Suspended Join Date: Sep 2006 Posts: 19,688

12th January 2020, 05:21 PM	#228
Sideroxylon Featherless biped Join Date: Aug 2008 Location: Aporia Posts: 24,137	Originally Posted by Thermal Fair question. When seeing the thread title, I assumed some kind of business tried to rip off another business model and got slammed with a $12mil suit. And no one is claiming they are shocked. It is more that it is not a common racial thing. Look at Wikipedia's entry for the expression. No mention of racist usage or connotations. Wiki gone white power too, I suppose? Well, speaking as one o' them thar Northerns, this tale is solidly in the 'leaping to the wrong conclusion' pile. I mean, come on...monkey see, monkey do? Google the term, and see how many kid programs and yoga studios and everything else under the sun shares this name. But just this one usage is racist (while parents and students of all colors flood the hearing in support of them)? Here again, it does not reflect on whether racism exists, despite your straw assertion. The argument is that this is a lousy example if someone wishes to show racism on the hoof. This bit is amazingly obtuse. An exercise in missing the point, which I will not labour any further.

12th January 2020, 05:26 PM	#229
Giordano Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Apr 2011 Posts: 17,646	Originally Posted by cullennz "Google the term" Try googling black people monkey and learn some facts about it That was going to be my suggestion too. The problem was not that the general term “monkey see monkey do,” was a racist meme, but using it to label a picture of black children was... I think this has been explained before in this thread...

12th January 2020, 06:40 PM	#230
pgwenthold Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Sep 2001 Posts: 20,059	Originally Posted by Giordano That was going to be my suggestion too. The problem was not that the general term “monkey see monkey do,” was a racist meme, but using it to label a picture of black children was... I think this has been explained before in this thread... You know, this topic pops up every couple of months, and every time, it always has to be explained that comparing black people to monkeys is a common racist trope!
	__________________ "As your friend, I have to be honest with you: I don't care about you or your problems" - Chloe, Secret Life of Pets

12th January 2020, 06:52 PM	#231
cullennz Suspended Join Date: Sep 2006 Posts: 19,688	Tbf without naming names there is a fair bit of purposefully obtuseness (may have made up a word) that goes on here.
cullennz Suspended Join Date: Sep 2006 Posts: 19,688

12th January 2020, 07:42 PM	#232
Thermal Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Aug 2016 Location: East Coast USA Posts: 13,113	Originally Posted by cullennz "Google the term" Try googling black people monkey and learn some facts about it Yeah, we know. We all know. But it's not what we are talking about. Any reference to monkeys does not automatically mean racism. I've heard there are these cats called 'skeptics' who value this jazz called 'context'. The context here is a science teacher who has used this goofy monkey do thing for like a decade with kids of different races. At the hearing, the place overflowed with support for him, from people of all colors. That says to me that this example is not racist. It was innocent, if stupid, as some of these turn out to be. But what do we do with a day care called 'Monkey Do'? Should we recommend to the owners not to accept black students, lest they be pictured under the school's signage, and the owner accused of being a hateful racist? Should the owner of Monkey Do Yoga refuse to sell a t-shirt to a black member? Think about it; the reasoning is going off the rails.
	__________________ We find comfort among those who agree with us, growth among those who don't -Frank A. Clark Whenever you find yourself on the side of the majority, it is time to pause and reflect -Mark Twain

12th January 2020, 07:57 PM	#233
Giordano Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Apr 2011 Posts: 17,646	Originally Posted by cullennz Tbf without naming names there is a fair bit of purposefully obtuseness (may have made up a word) that goes on here. Yes indeed.

12th January 2020, 07:59 PM	#234
JoeMorgue Self Employed Remittance Man Join Date: Nov 2009 Location: Florida Posts: 29,980	Yes the "Oh please remind me again that this is bad, as if we've never had this discussion before" thing we have to do every time this topic comes up.
	__________________ Yahtzee: "You're doing that thing again where when asked a question you just discuss the philosophy of the question instead of answering the bloody question." Gabriel: "Well yeah, you see..." Yahtzee: "No. When you are asked a Yes or No question the first word out of your mouth needs to be Yes or No. Only after that have you earned the right to elaborate." Last edited by JoeMorgue; 12th January 2020 at 08:00 PM.

12th January 2020, 08:07 PM	#235
JoeMorgue Self Employed Remittance Man Join Date: Nov 2009 Location: Florida Posts: 29,980	I'd ask what exactly about calling black people monkeys is so important to people that it has to be defended, but I already know I'd just get a bunch of unrelated rants about PC snowflakes and everyone being offended all the time which aren't answers to that question.
	__________________ Yahtzee: "You're doing that thing again where when asked a question you just discuss the philosophy of the question instead of answering the bloody question." Gabriel: "Well yeah, you see..." Yahtzee: "No. When you are asked a Yes or No question the first word out of your mouth needs to be Yes or No. Only after that have you earned the right to elaborate."