So-called "objective" journalism is bad for democracy. Here's why:

ChristianProgressive

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I am truly sick of attacks on the media for being something more than mere transcriptionists for the powerful, but I've never seen a better summation of WHY that's a bad thing in a democratic society than this:

https://thecorrespondent.com/6138/w...ing-and-dangerous-illusion/157316940-eb6c348e

...the word “objectivity” is usually understood in terms of its moral dimension. Journalists are expected to suspend moral judgment. They’re not supposed to say what they think.

Yet this has never been an amoral business. On the contrary, journalism is moral through and through. It’s about what we as a society consider important, or should. All journalism, then, begins and ends with ideas about good and evil. The planet getting hotter isn’t news because it’s fact. The planet getting hotter is news because that’s a bad thing.

Journalism is moral through and through. It begins and ends with ideas of good and evil

If you order journalists to check their moral judgments at the door, one of two things will happen. Either they’ll have no clue what to report on and go home without a story, or they’ll figure it out in the only way possible: by letting others decide. In practice, that means becoming a mouthpiece for the establishment– the people with the power to decide what’s important, trivial, good, or bad. (Or, like the Dutch premier, to define what’s “normal” and what isn’t.)

Objective journalism, defined as not taking a position or having an opinion, has become precisely the opposite of what it was originally intended to be. Today, it equates to unquestioningly repeating the opinions of the powerful. By leaving the position-taking to the public, we reduce our task as journalists to issuing press releases on behalf of elites.

In short, we fail to fulfill our most basic duty.

The article goes into a lot more detail of the argument, but this is the heart of it, IMO.
 
I dislike Trump and the militant right as much as you do, but I don't like the idea of having nothing but biased media to get information from.
I agree the perfect objectivity is probably impossible, but you can be fair, and you can avoid distorting the facts to fit a viewpoint. Frankly, the writer of that article wants a licence to lie and distort;in the end he's no better then the people at Fox News.
 
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I have little objection to an article being objective in that it gives the facts unbiasedly.

I do have an issue where the facts fall squarely on one side of the argument, but the media in their strive to be "fair and balanced" act as if both sides have equal merit regardless of one having all the facts and the other having nothing but lies. That sort of reporting really gets my goat.
 
Do we really want media to devolve into punditry? I don’t. We are already halfway there and it’s bad enough. I would love to have a source where the facts are reported without someone telling me what to think about those facts. There aren’t many of those sources left.
 
Objectivity isn't the problem. We need more objectivity.

Compulsive neutrality is the issue among most news outlets.
 
I have little objection to an article being objective in that it gives the facts unbiasedly.

I do have an issue where the facts fall squarely on one side of the argument, but the media in their strive to be "fair and balanced" act as if both sides have equal merit regardless of one having all the facts and the other having nothing but lies. That sort of reporting really gets my goat.

Um...you've used the Huffington Post as if it were a credible and reliable source.
 
I dislike Trump and the militant right as much as you do, but I don't like the idea of having nothing but biased media to get information from.
I agree the perfect objectivity is probably impossible, but you can be fair, and you can avoid distorting the facts to fit a viewpoint. Frankly, the writer of that article wants a licence to lie and distort;in the end he's no better then the people at Fox News.

You have completely missed his point. It isn't distortion for a reporter to, for example, tell you in his story that Person A is lying when he says X. He just needs to show the evidence that what Person A says is a lie. That isn't "objective" in the sense the right wants to define the term. It's a conclusion, based on facts.

You are falling right into the conservative's trap saying that = "distortion".
 
Do we really want media to devolve into punditry? I don’t. We are already halfway there and it’s bad enough. I would love to have a source where the facts are reported without someone telling me what to think about those facts. There aren’t many of those sources left.

Drawing a conclusion =/= "punditry".
 
It's easily as reliable or more so than Fox "News" on most issues.
This contradicts your agreement with the opinion piece you cited even... "objective" journalism is "bad" yet you expect a proper news outlet to not be overtly biased against your view of politics?

We already have that in the form of punditry whereby hosts inject their political views into topics as a form of entertainment, and punditry has an unnerving tendency to grossly embellish issues moreso than the news coverage because it argues with an element of emotion to it. I view the major news outlets of have their own biased leanings, but the extensive punditry IMO makes the display of those biases much worse.
 
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Who here watches Maddow?

Maddow is a pundit, like a Hannity, though I'd suggest nowhere near extreme. When you watch her you know that you're mostly getting an opinion piece, though she does also present the facts that those opinions are based on.
 
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Maddow is a pundit, like a Hannity, though I'd suggest nowhere near extreme. When you watch her you know that you're mostly getting an opinion piece, though she does also present the facts that those opinions are based on.

She gish gallops/snow jobs. She knows "skeptics" are taken in by that kind of thing. She uses this to manipulate people like you, and it works. You come to this forum only using your "knowledge" you gained from HuffPo and MSNBC and that's why it's so easy to put you in your place.
 
She gish gallops/snow jobs. She knows "skeptics" are taken in by that kind of thing. She uses this to manipulate people like you, and it works. You come to this forum only using your "knowledge" you gained from HuffPo and MSNBC and that's why it's so easy to put you in your place.

:dl:
 
This contradicts your agreement with the opinion piece you cited even... "objective" journalism is "bad" yet you expect a proper news outlet to not be overtly biased against your view of politics?

That is not true at all. Fox goes way beyond any form of principled stance that might not be what I agree with and distorts the actual facts. It's coverage of the Mueller report, for example, flat out ignored the section documenting illicit Trump/Russia connections and obstruction of justice and claimed that it "exonerated" Trump. It's one thing to disagree about the conclusion drawn on the facts, and another thing entirely to ignore or make up your own "facts".
 
That is not true at all. Fox goes way beyond any form of principled stance that might not be what I agree with and distorts the actual facts. It's coverage of the Mueller report, for example, flat out ignored the section documenting illicit Trump/Russia connections and obstruction of justice and claimed that it "exonerated" Trump. It's one thing to disagree about the conclusion drawn on the facts, and another thing entirely to ignore or make up your own "facts".

You mean like Sean Hannity Promoting Birtherism and not understanding how paper punch cards worked you know Holes?
A lot of news has become merely Propoganda TV.
 
You mean like Sean Hannity Promoting Birtherism and not understanding how paper punch cards worked you know Holes?
A lot of news has become merely Propoganda TV.

This is what I was talking about. Sean Hannity is not a journalist. His show is not a news show. This blurring of lines between journalism and punditry is already bad enough.
 
Maddow is a pundit, like a Hannity, though I'd suggest nowhere near extreme. When you watch her you know that you're mostly getting an opinion piece, though she does also present the facts that those opinions are based on.

Yep.

Maddow is pretty much what I imagine would happen, if we were to get CP's wish for opinionated journalism. A mainstream media full of Rachel Maddows, calling themselves "reporters".
 
I believe the term you're looking for is false balance, not objectivity. News media can be objective and investigative, and confront politicians and others with sharp questions, all at the same time.

Have a look at this chyron from Fair and Balanced (We Decide, You Believe) Fox News:

https://twitter.com/DavidJollyFL/status/1219795231765299205
I would be thoroughly embarrassed to work at FOX News these days. I realise they have aligned themselves with the Republican party/Drumpf, and that this means catering to the knuckle-dragging trumpkins and thus lowering themselves to the level of the Orange Child King, but gods. I imagine them holding their noses as they type stuff out.
Eta: then again, I wouldn't work at a partisan propaganda venue in the first place, so what do I know.
 
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I think the OP article has everything pretty much wrong. We need objectivity in reporting. We also like punditry for interpretation and insight, which can of course be biased to our inclinations. They are not the same games, and the author conflates them.
 
I think the OP article has everything pretty much wrong. We need objectivity in reporting. We also like punditry for interpretation and insight, which can of course be biased to our inclinations. They are not the same games, and the author conflates them.

this.
 
I believe the term you're looking for is false balance, not objectivity. News media can be objective and investigative, and confront politicians and others with sharp questions, all at the same time.


I would be thoroughly embarrassed to work at FOX News these days. I realise they have aligned themselves with the Republican party/Drumpf, and that this means catering to the knuckle-dragging trumpkins and thus lowering themselves to the level of the Orange Child King, but gods. I imagine them holding their noses as they type stuff out.
Eta: then again, I wouldn't work at a partisan propaganda venue in the first place, so what do I know.
All fine and well but it's apparent this forum is lacking the critical thinking skills and cognitive capabilities to actually detect bull *!#@. The world is a complicated place and different people have different interests so "Fox News = bad, CNN = good" is not a sufficient way to analyze US Politics or anything else about the world. I continue to read the most bizarre, off-the wall things on this forum that go entirely unchallenged like Roe v Wade is about to be overturned, and people in US do not have any way to transfer funds electronically (three people here actually thought this!). I wish people here had the ability to discern facts from fantasy but they just don't.
 
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All fine and well but it's apparent this forum is lacking the critical thinking skills and cognitive capabilities to actually detect bull *!#@. The world is a complicated place and different people have different interests so "Fox News = bad, CNN = good" is not a sufficient way to analyze US Politics or anything else about the world. I continue to read the most bizarre, off-the wall things on this forum that go entirely unchallenged like Roe v Wade is about to be overturned, and people in US do not have any way to transfer funds electronically (three people here actually thought this!). I wish people here had the ability to discern facts from fantasy but they just don't.

Actually they do if they choose too, did You know that Donald J Trump, doesn't understand how paper punch cards worked?
 
I think the OP article has everything pretty much wrong. We need objectivity in reporting. We also like punditry for interpretation and insight, which can of course be biased to our inclinations. They are not the same games, and the author conflates them.


Again, drawing a conclusion =/= "punditry".
 
I am truly sick of attacks on the media for being something more than mere transcriptionists for the powerful, but I've never seen a better summation of WHY that's a bad thing in a democratic society than this:
The article goes into a lot more detail of the argument, but this is the heart of it, IMO.
All I see is the usual liberal nonsense; stealing the language of the left in order to propagate the views of the wealthy elite.

Sure, they bang on about morality but display none of it and yet, here we are, with grown adults falling for it.



Objectivity isn't the problem. We need more objectivity.

Compulsive neutrality is the issue among most news outlets.
It's the issue currently because it is what sells the best amongst the liberals. The conservatives love being lied to just as much; the only difference is that they're more blatant about their lies.

Only leftists are unafraid of the truth and shove it in everyone's faces all the time which is why they've been demonized for the past 100 years (and thoroughly crushed in the US). Like the comment below from CP which I'll get to after...


Maddow is a pundit, like a Hannity, though I'd suggest nowhere near extreme. When you watch her you know that you're mostly getting an opinion piece, though she does also present the facts that those opinions are based on.
Sometimes, as long as those facts align with the current liberal ideology. When there are nothing but rumors, she runs with those too. Same with such liberal bastions as the New York Times and other major publications which has come back and bit them hard, on occasion.



You mean like Sean Hannity Promoting Birtherism and not understanding how paper punch cards worked you know Holes?
A lot of news has become merely Propoganda TV.
Almost all news is owned and run by billionaires so in that case, all of it is Propaganda TV.



Hannity is suspected of also being a Russian stooge, if not an outright asset.

https://observer.com/2018/01/sanctions-nunes-memo-reveal-donald-trump-sean-hannity-ties-to-russia/
Oh, please. Just stop. You know, nobody is scared of the big, bad Soviet Union any more because there is no Soviet Union. This isn't the 1950's. Russia today is full-on, through and through capitalist just like us. They aren't communist and haven't been since Stalin. Same with China. They have some state-owned structures but they're still capitalist too.
 
Priority 1:
don't let opinion pieces or shows masquerade as news - there should be penalties if they don't make it clear that they aren't actually reporting but instead preaching.

Priority 2:
make footnotes available
 
Oh, please. Just stop. You know, nobody is scared of the big, bad Soviet Union any more because there is no Soviet Union. This isn't the 1950's. Russia today is full-on, through and through capitalist just like us. They aren't communist and haven't been since Stalin. Same with China. They have some state-owned structures but they're still capitalist too.


Oh, please. Just stop. Absolutely none of that has any relevance to the fact that Russia is currently an adversary meddling in US elections and fomenting division within the country.
 
Oh, please. Just stop. Absolutely none of that has any relevance to the fact that Russia is currently an adversary meddling in US elections and fomenting division within the country.

Yeah, 1st time it's happened too, not like it's been going on FOR-FRIGGIN-EVER !!

If they ain't cheatin, they ain't tryin.
 
Yeah, 1st time it's happened too, not like it's been going on FOR-FRIGGIN-EVER !!

If they ain't cheatin, they ain't tryin.



No, it's not the first time it's happened. Russia has been an adversary of America for decades.
 
From the OP link:
Yet this has never been an amoral business. On the contrary, journalism is moral through and through.
I kinda wonder what planet this writer has been living on. Yes, patient and persistent newsgathering is sometimes, even often, a force for good. But plenty of other times it has been conspicuously amoral. Not immoral, just the usual selling newspapers or generating traffic or attracting eyeballs, what you need sell ads.
 
Drawing a conclusion is interpretation. I don't need a reporter to draw conclusions for me. Do you?

Some of the greatest pieces of journalism in history have had a point to make, usually that of exposing corruption and speaking truth about it to power (cf Watergate, Pentagon Papers, or [for those historically minded] Nelly Bly's expose of the inhumane mental institutions of the turn of the 20th century).

The original article I linked to discusses the fallacy at length of "He said, he said" so-called "journalism" which is not journalism at all, but reduces the media to the role of press secretary and PR publisher.
 
Drawing a conclusion is interpretation. I don't need a reporter to draw conclusions for me. Do you?

Humans can draw conclusions without mentally shutting down unlike some people I could mention.

There's a difference between repeating what other people are saying and reporting, and there's a difference between reporting and "spin." The difference between this things are those pesky "facts" that we used to all agree exist.

As someone once said if Side A says it is raining and Side B says it is not the media's job to just go "There is controversy over whether or not it is raining" or just let us know that Side A says this and Side B says that... it's their job to a window and check.
 
Oh, please. Just stop. You know, nobody is scared of the big, bad Soviet Union any more because there is no Soviet Union. This isn't the 1950's. Russia today is full-on, through and through capitalist just like us. They aren't communist and haven't been since Stalin. Same with China. They have some state-owned structures but they're still capitalist too.

  1. Being 'capitalist' does not make a nation not hostile to US interests.
  2. Dismissing the Russian threat as you (and Trump) do ignores the unanimous opinion of our intelligence services AND the GOP-controlled Senate Intelligence Committee, ALL of which found that Russia attacked our election in 2016.

No nation that attacks our elections means us well, and when evidence is found that said hostile nation is funding "alternative" media sites and figures that suspiciously seem to support its agenda, a wise nation does not blithely dismiss those concerns as "Red Baiting".
 
Humans can draw conclusions without mentally shutting down unlike some people I could mention.

There's a difference between repeating what other people are saying and reporting, and there's a difference between reporting and "spin." The difference between this things are those pesky "facts" that we used to all agree exist.

As someone once said if Side A says it is raining and Side B says it is not the media's job to just go "There is controversy over whether or not it is raining" or just let us know that Side A says this and Side B says that... it's their job to a window and check.
No, Joe. It's not their job to check.

The media is fundamentally nothing more than the exercise of free speech by free citizens. The "job" is whatever the speaker thinks it is.

Nobody owes it to you to go check if it's really raining. Not me. Not Maddow. Not Fox News. Not CNN. Maybe they'll go check for you, if they think it'll sell more ads. But probably not. Investigative journalism is expensive. Not a lot of places can afford it anymore.

Plus, there's the problem of... well, I'm not sure what to call it. Similar to "regulatory capture". Media outlets depend in part on access to sources of information. Adversarial investigative journalism will tend to undermine access to sources. No access, no content, no advertising, no money to hire investigative journalists (and law firms to protect them).

So no, it's not CNN's "job" to check if it's raining. CNN's actual job is to make money by selling ads. They do so in part by fostering a certain kind of reputation, of being a certain kind of news source. But as soon as it becomes cheaper to foster the perception rather than the reality, as soon as they discover how much viewership they can sustain on the perception alone, that's that.

They're rain-controversy-reporting people. That is, in their own estimation, their actual job. You object that they're not living up to their promise of being rain-investigation-reporting people, but I'd say that was never actually the promise.

For sure it's not the media's "job". The media is just people speaking in public. Their job is whatever they want it to be. There has never actually been a Fourth Estate, except in the self-righteous, self-congratulatory rhetoric of publishers and journalists. And their dupes and shills.

The kind of reporting you want isn't going to come from the Media. It's going to come from individual reporters and publishers who have actually taken on that job. You want investigative journalism? Ignore the press and find out what David Carreyrou has been up to lately. Don't expect Christiane Amanpour to tell you anything that hasn't been filtered through several layers of demographic analysis, personal bias, information access control, and editorial narrative through-lines.

And even a good investigator like Carreyrou, with the full backing of the Wall Street Journal's editorial and legal teams, still gets to pick and choose what he investigates, and what kind of story he's going to tell.

The media isn't a branch of government. It's not a control rod on the reactor of public policy. It's just us. Citizens speaking freely. Some of it good. Some of it bad. Some of it done well. Some of it done poorly. None of it is ever supposed to be the kind of magic you and others seem to expect from it.
 
That is a wonderful argument against for profit news media. Even if you are, in fact, wrong on the idea that the news media does not "owe" us to get the facts straight.
 
I said "media" when I meant "news" not that that is going to make difference to certain people.
 

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