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Tags donald trump , Joe Walsh

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Old 7th February 2020, 06:33 PM   #1
Venom
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Joe Walsh: "I would rather have a socialist in the White House than a dictator"

Now here is a true Never Trumper.

Big time Tea Party affiliate Joe Walsh drops out of the Republican race and declares that he is ready to vote Trump out no matter what. He is prepared to vote for any of the Democratic candidates.

Not a fan of Walsh or Mitt Romney but they have a spine.
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Old 7th February 2020, 07:29 PM   #2
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Old 7th February 2020, 07:39 PM   #3
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Originally Posted by Venom View Post
Now here is a true Never Trumper.

Big time Tea Party affiliate Joe Walsh drops out of the Republican race and declares that he is ready to vote Trump out no matter what. He is prepared to vote for any of the Democratic candidates.

Not a fan of Walsh or Mitt Romney but they have a spine.
At least there are two Americans left in the Republican Party.
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Old 8th February 2020, 12:05 AM   #4
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If you've half a mind to support Trump, you're already over-qualified!
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Old 11th February 2020, 07:21 AM   #5
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I see what you did there

Originally Posted by Thermal View Post
It's hard to leave when you can't find the door.


Being right on the most obvious issue in world politics today shouldn't earn Walsh any points, but it is notable how rare it is these days.
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Old 11th February 2020, 08:24 AM   #6
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Originally Posted by Venom View Post
Now here is a true Never Trumper.
Except not at all, he's basically just jealous of Trump of getting there first.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Joe_Wa...ian)#Economics
Quote:
Big time Tea Party affiliate Joe Walsh drops out of the Republican race and declares that he is ready to vote Trump out no matter what. He is prepared to vote for any of the Democratic candidates.

Not a fan of Walsh or Mitt Romney but they have a spine.
Walsh is full of ****.

I am however amused by how Trump can make folks blind to someone like Walsh, who appears to actually agree with Trump on most issues that would make him a potential dictator. Its a lot like Trump himself. Rand Paul has one of the most anti-Trump voting records of a Republican congressman but kisses Trumps ass publicly so Trump never says a bad word about him. Vote 100% with Trump and publicly call him out on anything and he won't shut up about you.

Last edited by ahhell; 11th February 2020 at 08:28 AM.
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Old 11th February 2020, 08:27 AM   #7
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Originally Posted by Venom View Post
Now here is a true Never Trumper.

Big time Tea Party affiliate Joe Walsh drops out of the Republican race and declares that he is ready to vote Trump out no matter what. He is prepared to vote for any of the Democratic candidates.

Not a fan of Walsh or Mitt Romney but they have a spine.
Is Trump a "dictator" or was he impeached and put on trial? They're mutually exclusive, you know...
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Old 11th February 2020, 08:33 AM   #8
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Originally Posted by BrooklynBaby View Post
Is Trump a "dictator" or was he impeached and put on trial? They're mutually exclusive, you know...
He is a, dictator because he Rigged the trail, and Republicans said so from the Start!
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Old 11th February 2020, 08:39 AM   #9
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Originally Posted by Crazy Chainsaw View Post
He is a, dictator because he Rigged the trail, and Republicans said so from the Start!
Lindsey Graham publicly stated: “I am trying to give a pretty clear signal I have made up my mind. I’m not trying to pretend to be a fair juror here.” “I don’t need any witnesses.”

The trial required him to take an oath in these words:

“I solemnly swear (or affirm) that in all things appertaining to the trial of ____, now pending, I will do impartial justice according to the Constitution and laws, so help me God.”

There's no gray area here.
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Old 11th February 2020, 08:42 AM   #10
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Originally Posted by Crazy Chainsaw View Post
He is a, dictator because he Rigged the trail, and Republicans said so from the Start!
all hiking is rigged!
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Old 11th February 2020, 08:48 AM   #11
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Originally Posted by Crazy Chainsaw View Post
He is a, dictator because he Rigged the trail, and Republicans said so from the Start!
LOL. The trial wasn't rigged, Trump's party has a majority in the Senate, freely elected by Americans, as was Trump, and they voted to acquit, which was predictable because there was no crime in the indictments. Now, no more of this silliness about Trump being a dictator.
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Old 11th February 2020, 09:35 AM   #12
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Originally Posted by Venom View Post
Now here is a true Never Trumper.

Big time Tea Party affiliate Joe Walsh drops out of the Republican race and declares that he is ready to vote Trump out no matter what. He is prepared to vote for any of the Democratic candidates.

Not a fan of Walsh or Mitt Romney but they have a spine.
Walsh may have a spine, but he doesn't have a brain. A socialist in the White House is entirely possible: Just elect Bernie Sanders, for example.

A dictator in the White House is flatly impossible, without replacing the current system of government with something else entirely. At this point it's safe to say that Donald Trump probably understands the American presidency better than Joe Walsh does.
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Old 11th February 2020, 10:02 AM   #13
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
Walsh may have a spine, but he doesn't have a brain. A socialist in the White House is entirely possible: Just elect Bernie Sanders, for example.

A dictator in the White House is flatly impossible, without replacing the current system of government with something else entirely. At this point it's safe to say that Donald Trump probably understands the American presidency better than Joe Walsh does.
Maybe a little latitude for Walsh's hyperbole? I mean, they say he's crazy but it takes all his time.
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Old 11th February 2020, 10:06 AM   #14
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
Walsh may have a spine, but he doesn't have a brain. A socialist in the White House is entirely possible: Just elect Bernie Sanders, for example.

A dictator in the White House is flatly impossible, without replacing the current system of government with something else entirely. At this point it's safe to say that Donald Trump probably understands the American presidency better than Joe Walsh does.
The Founders clearly understood that as well.
That is why they put no provisions in the Constitution designed to allow the citizenry to protect themselves from tyranny.
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Old 11th February 2020, 10:09 AM   #15
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
Walsh may have a spine, but he doesn't have a brain. A socialist in the White House is entirely possible: Just elect Bernie Sanders, for example.

A dictator in the White House is flatly impossible, without replacing the current system of government with something else entirely. At this point it's safe to say that Donald Trump probably understands the American presidency better than Joe Walsh does.
I think it's safe to say Donald Trump has shown he has all of the personal attributes of a dictator and the political structure of the U.S. government, or maybe even just his close advisers, is the only thing holding back his worst excesses.
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Old 11th February 2020, 10:17 AM   #16
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Originally Posted by BrooklynBaby View Post
LOL. The trial wasn't rigged, Trump's party has a majority in the Senate, freely elected by Americans, as was Trump, and they voted to acquit, which was predictable because there was no crime in the indictments.
Why do uou repeat this when you've already been corrected? Are you able to learn new information?

Impeachment is not about crimes as defined by US law, but about crimes as defined by the House.
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Old 11th February 2020, 10:17 AM   #17
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Originally Posted by BrooklynBaby View Post
LOL. The trial wasn't rigged, Trump's party has a majority in the Senate, freely elected by Americans, as was Trump, and they voted to acquit, which was predictable because there was no crime in the indictments. Now, no more of this silliness about Trump being a dictator.
Perhaps you can clear something up for me. You mention that there was no crime in the indictments against Trump, by this I assume you mean a punishable breach of a criminal statute. However, offenses by officials, while including ordinary crimes, are not limited to them. As I understand it (and if I'm mistaken here, please let me know), a “high crime or misdemeanor”, as the term was used at the time of the Founders, need not be a breach of criminal statute. The sole magistrate, as the Founders thought of the President, can be impeached for acts that subvert the Constitution and/or involve abuse of the office. High misdemeanors could even extend to gross maladministration.

I am given to understand that, the phrase "high crimes and misdemeanors," was a common phrase when the U.S. Constitution was written. In English law as we inherited it from the British, who were using it since the 14th Century, the phrase was used to cover many varieties of bad act. The English had prosecuted officeholders for, among other things, misappropriating government funds, appointing unfit subordinates, not prosecuting cases, promoting themselves ahead of more deserving candidates, threatening a grand jury, disobeying an order from Parliament and arresting a man to keep him from running for Parliament. As I understand the meaning of the phrase, “high crimes and misdemeanors” are actions by those who have special duties, powers or privileges, beyond those held by the common person, as a result of holding an office. A high crime is one that can be done only by someone in such a position of authority and may be solely political in character.

Back in the ‘70’s when Nixon was on the verge of impeachment, Congress (following the Supreme Court) held that, like other phrases in the Constitution such as “keep and bear arms” and “levying war”, “high crimes and misdemeanors” must be construed as the Founders understood it, not by modern usage. The original intent of the Founders can be found by reading the record of their debates. (They are on-line someplace.) The debates in Congress used such language as "high misdemeanor," "maladministration," or "other crime." Edmund Randolph said impeachment should be reserved for those who "misbehave." Charles Cotesworth Pinckney said it should be reserved "for those who behave amiss, or betray their public trust." In The Federalist, Alexander Hamilton spoke of "those offences which proceed from the misconduct of public men, or, in other words, from the abuse or violation of some public trust. They are of a nature which may with peculiar propriety be denominated political, as they relate chiefly to injuries done immediately to the society itself."

If we can accept all of that, could you explain to me how using the power of the U.S. presidency to attempt to solicit a foreign power to prosecute a U.S. citizen for the purpose of interfering in a U.S. election to secure one's own re-election, then admitting to it on television, and then impeding a Congressional investigation and failing to respond to Congressional subpoenas does not rise to the level of an impeachable offense?

TIA.
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Old 11th February 2020, 10:26 AM   #18
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
Walsh may have a spine, but he doesn't have a brain. A socialist in the White House is entirely possible: Just elect Bernie Sanders, for example.

A dictator in the White House is flatly impossible, without replacing the current system of government with something else entirely. At this point it's safe to say that Donald Trump probably understands the American presidency better than Joe Walsh does.
What if, stay with me here, a contingent of members of one branch managed to maintain power and abdicate their duties in order to allow an executive to have almost unchecked power? So, we'd have the same government in name but in practice, far closer to a dictatorship than anyone would care to admit. Kind of like how under Saddam Hussein, Iraq was a "democracy".
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Old 11th February 2020, 10:46 AM   #19
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Originally Posted by Donal View Post
What if, stay with me here, a contingent of members of one branch managed to maintain power and abdicate their duties in order to allow an executive to have almost unchecked power? So, we'd have the same government in name but in practice, far closer to a dictatorship than anyone would care to admit. Kind of like how under Saddam Hussein, Iraq was a "democracy".
Factions in the Executive and Legislative branches agreeing with each other and enabling each other's agendas is indeed a failure mode of our system of government, but it doesn't make the government a dictatorship.
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Old 11th February 2020, 10:47 AM   #20
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Originally Posted by Belz... View Post
Why do uou repeat this when you've already been corrected? Are you able to learn new information?

Impeachment is not about crimes as defined by US law, but about crimes as defined by the House.
... And as defined by the Senate.
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Old 11th February 2020, 11:07 AM   #21
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
Factions in the Executive and Legislative branches agreeing with each other and enabling each other's agendas is indeed a failure mode of our system of government, but it doesn't make the government a dictatorship.
But we're going beyond fulfilling agendas. This is covering up and facilitating criminal, or at least anti-Constitutional, activity. Just because we have the trappings and titles associated with a Democratic Republic does not mean we can't slip into a dictatorship.
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Old 11th February 2020, 11:11 AM   #22
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I have to give it up to Joe Walsh. He's a good guy.
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Old 11th February 2020, 11:15 AM   #23
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Originally Posted by Venom View Post
I think it's safe to say Donald Trump has shown he has all of the personal attributes of a dictator and the political structure of the U.S. government, or maybe even just his close advisers, is the only thing holding back his worst excesses.
I don't think it's safe to say that at all. I think Trump has demonstrated a distinct lack of certain attributes necessary in a dictator. I also think he's fallen short of even the excesses actually available to a US president.
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Old 11th February 2020, 11:15 AM   #24
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Given how the Trial played out it seems very obvious how a Dictatorship could happen m
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Old 11th February 2020, 11:36 AM   #25
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Originally Posted by ahhell View Post
Except not at all, he's basically just jealous of Trump of getting there first.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Joe_Wa...ian)#Economics


Walsh is full of ****.

I am however amused by how Trump can make folks blind to someone like Walsh, who appears to actually agree with Trump on most issues that would make him a potential dictator.
Yes, Walsh may have agreed with Trump on certain policy points (low taxes, etc.)

That does not mean that he agrees with the tactics Trump has been using, or Trump's obvious corruption.

I certainly wouldn't want Walsh as a president. (Far too similar to Trump in policy beliefs, and a tendency to do dumb things.) But I have no trouble believing he thinks Trump is not suitable to be president because of Trump's actual activities, rather than out of jealousy.
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Old 11th February 2020, 11:46 AM   #26
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
Factions in the Executive and Legislative branches agreeing with each other and enabling each other's agendas is indeed a failure mode of our system of government, but it doesn't make the government a dictatorship.


How about if, the only reason they're agreeing with him is because they fear his retaliation?
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Old 11th February 2020, 11:51 AM   #27
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Originally Posted by Donal View Post
But we're going beyond fulfilling agendas. This is covering up and facilitating criminal, or at least anti-Constitutional, activity. Just because we have the trappings and titles associated with a Democratic Republic does not mean we can't slip into a dictatorship.
A dictator that serves at the pleasure of the legislature isn't a dictator. That's the point.
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Old 11th February 2020, 11:54 AM   #28
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Originally Posted by Mumbles View Post
I have to give it up to Joe Walsh. He's a good guy.
An ordinary average guy at best.
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Old 11th February 2020, 11:54 AM   #29
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Originally Posted by Horatius View Post
How about if, the only reason they're agreeing with him is because they fear his retaliation?
Political trade-offs don't make a dictatorship.

Now, if they were agreeing with him because they feared his praetorian guard or ideological militia would disappear them into gulags or club them to death in the street, I might agree that we're looking at a dictatorship.

Trump opposing his political enemies politically is no more dictatorial than AOC opposing her political enemies politically.

If you squint really hard it kinda looks like a dictatorship. Until you realize you're squinting so hard your eyes are shut and you're not looking at anything at all, just imagining it.
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Old 11th February 2020, 11:55 AM   #30
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
A dictator that serves at the pleasure of the legislature isn't a dictator. That's the point.
Does he though? From various accounts, the GOP senators were afraid to take any action against Trump. Is the legislature really in charge?
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Old 11th February 2020, 11:56 AM   #31
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Originally Posted by Horatius View Post
Quote:
Factions in the Executive and Legislative branches agreeing with each other and enabling each other's agendas is indeed a failure mode of our system of government, but it doesn't make the government a dictatorship.
How about if, the only reason they're agreeing with him is because they fear his retaliation?
And what if both Trump's and the Republican Party's activities create a sort of positive feedback loop... Appoint more right-wing judges on the supreme court, courts allow more voter suppression and gerrymandering, giving the republicans more power to appoint more right-wing judges. Or break the norms of government, use that as an opportunity to get more power (through precedents), and then use that additional power to break government again.

I personally don't think Trump himself would end up as a dictator... too incompetent and too old. But the U.S. is setting itself up for future (right wing) politicians to become either Dictators at worst, or oligarchs at best.
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Old 11th February 2020, 12:04 PM   #32
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
Trump opposing his political enemies politically is no more dictatorial than AOC opposing her political enemies politically.
Last time I checked, AOC did not have the authority to launch baseless investigations into her opponents (through the DoJ).

Last time I checked, AOC did not have the ability to silence critics within her own party through control of party funds.

Last time I checked, AOC did not have enough 'followers' to have any rivals 'primaried' by supporting an opponent
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Old 11th February 2020, 12:11 PM   #33
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Originally Posted by Distracted1 View Post
The Founders clearly understood that as well.
That is why they put no provisions in the Constitution designed to allow the citizenry to protect themselves from tyranny.
I used to believe that. Nowadays I'm not so sure. It seems more likely that the 2nd amendment provided for citizens to protect themselves against local unrest, instead of depending on a distant Federal government to send the cavalry in time to save them. Sort of a 17th century version of "when you're seconds from death and the cops are minutes away..."

I think the constitutional provisions that actually hedge against dictatorship are the ones that lay out the separation of powers and the checks and balances on those powers.

---

Though, if you really believe Trump is a dictator, and that an armed insurgency is the appropriate remedy, then I'd like to hear your plans. Are you armed? Have you made contact with many like-minded patriots? Have you figured out which part of the country you're going to turn into your own version of Fallujah or the Afghani hinterlands? I recommend somewhere along the Canadian border. You'll have easy access to a (hopefully) friendly power willing to support your rebellion. On the southern border, you'd be more likely overrun by cartels than supported by the Mexican government.
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Old 11th February 2020, 12:17 PM   #34
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
Political trade-offs don't make a dictatorship.

Here is a checklist of things that dictators do. I have placed checkmarks after the ones that fit Trump's behaviour

1. Systematic efforts to intimidate the media.

"The media is the enemy of the people"

2. Building an official pro-leader media network.
Faux News, Hannity

3. Politicizing the civil service, military, National Guard, or the domestic security agencies.

Appointing loyalists to top posts even when they lack the obvious qualifications

4. Using government assets against domestic political opponents.

The attempts to use Giuliani, the Three Amigos and the Derp Squad to investigate Biden

5. Using state power to reward corporate backers and punish opponents.
Gordon Sondland donates a million dollars, rewarded with an ambassadorship. Washington Post runs a lot of critical articles about Trump, and Post owner Jeff Bezos suddenly learns federal officials are contemplating new regulations that would hurt his main business (Amazon)

6. Stacking the courts.
Thanks Moscow Mitch

7. Scaremongering
Muslim bans, immigrant caravans

8. Enforcing the law for only one side.
Trump is quick to call out his critics but gives racists, bigots, and homophobes a free pass because they happen to like him.

9. Rigging the system.
Invited Russian electoral interference

10. Demonizing the opposition.

Her emails, lock her up, telling "the sqaud" to "back back where they came from"


Yep, Trump is passing a lot of the sniff tests for dictatorship.

Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
Now, if they were agreeing with him because they feared his praetorian guard or ideological militia would disappear them into gulags or club them to death in the street, I might agree that we're looking at a dictatorship.
There is more than one way to skin a cat, and just because that hasn't happened yet, who is to say that won't happen.

If you had told me in 2010 that single US president would

Praise white nationalists
Use social media to announce policy and fire staff
Completely ignore his own intelligence services and instead, take the advice of Vladimir Putin
Threaten to withdraw from NATO
Invite a foreign country to help him win an election
Call the FBI "scum"
Fail to criticise a foreign country for murdering a US journalist
Hide his conversations with dictators from his own foreign affairs officials
Cuddle up to dictators
Help to spread Russian propaganda and disinformation

I would have told you that you were a nutcase.

Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
Trump opposing his political enemies politically is no more dictatorial than AOC opposing her political enemies politically.
But using the power of his office to extort a foreign country into investigating his political opponents... that is a sign of dictatorship

Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
If you squint really hard it kinda looks like a dictatorship. Until you realize you're squinting so hard your eyes are shut and you're not looking at anything at all, just imagining it.
I see someone trying to be a king/dictator, and my eyes are wide open
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Old 11th February 2020, 12:29 PM   #35
Donal
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
A dictator that serves at the pleasure of the legislature isn't a dictator. That's the point.
No, we actually seem to have the opposite. Sniveling cowards groveling before an executive.
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Old 11th February 2020, 12:44 PM   #36
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Originally Posted by Donal View Post
No, we actually seem to have the opposite. Sniveling cowards groveling before an executive.
Correction, groveling before an electorate. Trump is very popular among R voters. Going anti-Trump would be a sure way for them to get primaried or lose their seat to a Democrat if R voters don't vote for them.
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Old 11th February 2020, 12:51 PM   #37
theprestige
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Originally Posted by Donal View Post
No, we actually seem to have the opposite. Sniveling cowards groveling before an executive.
Still not a dictatorship.

But okay, let's look at that more closely. Say Bernie The Socialist* gets elected, but the GOP retains the Senate majority, and McConnnell stays on as Senate Majority leader. Do you think they'd be sniveling cowards groveling before President Sanders? If they were, would it make the Sanders Administration a dictatorship? If they don't grovel, would that be better? Is that the kind of outcome you're looking for? I remember the Senate did a pretty good job of not groveling before President Obama. Do you want more of that? Because I could totally vote for more of that.

Or what about if Bernie gets elected, and the Democrats gain a Senate majority. What would you prefer, dictatorship-wise? A Senate that cooperates with the President to further his agenda? Or a Senate that balks at the President and serves to check his power?
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Old 11th February 2020, 12:52 PM   #38
theprestige
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Originally Posted by Iamafalser View Post
Correction, groveling before an electorate. Trump is very popular among R voters. Going anti-Trump would be a sure way for them to get primaried or lose their seat to a Democrat if R voters don't vote for them.
Groveling before the voters is pretty much the opposite of a dictatorship.
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Old 11th February 2020, 01:05 PM   #39
Segnosaur
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
Or what about if Bernie gets elected, and the Democrats gain a Senate majority. What would you prefer, dictatorship-wise? A Senate that cooperates with the President to further his agenda? Or a Senate that balks at the President and serves to check his power?
False dichotomy.

We would hope that the senate works with the president to further his agenda when his agenda is both legal and a benefit to the nation. On the other hand, if the president acts in ways that are illegal (e.g. engaging in extortion against a foreign country by withholding funds allocated by congress) then the senate should stop cooperating.
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Old 11th February 2020, 01:15 PM   #40
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Originally Posted by BrooklynBaby View Post
LOL. The trial wasn't rigged, Trump's party has a majority in the Senate, freely elected by Americans, as was Trump, and they voted to acquit, which was predictable because there was no crime in the indictments.
The vote to acquit was predictable because there was a Republican majority in the Senate not because there was no crime. Much the same as impeachment was a foregone conclusion after the Democrats took the house in the midterms.

Quote:
Now, no more of this silliness about Trump being a dictator.
Agreed.
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