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Tags Ireland elections , Ireland issues , Ireland politics , sinn fein

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Old 10th February 2020, 07:31 PM   #41
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Killing defenseless people - especially women and children - is the specialty of the IRA scum and always will be. Sinn Fein is just another name for those animals and always will be. A pox on the house of anyone who calls themselves Sinn Fein or IRA and any of their supporters.
The fact that they have election success is no testament to anything good about them - it is just testament to the fact that people can embrace any horrible behaviour and vote for anyone who agrees with their hatred and prejudices. (For more proof of that type of voting behaviour - see the United States' 45th - and most likely 46th - president).

On 10 February 2005, the government-appointed Independent Monitoring Commission reported that it firmly supported the PSNI and Garda Síochána assessments that the IRA was responsible for the Northern Bank robbery and that certain senior members of Sinn Féin were also senior members of the IRA and would have had knowledge of and given approval to the carrying out of the robbery.
Fourth report of the Independent Monitoring Commission". Independent Monitoring Commission. 10 February 2005.
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Old 10th February 2020, 07:35 PM   #42
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Originally Posted by Giordano View Post
What is the evidence that the current IRA is linked to these current violent terrorist factions? I am not arguing they are not, nor that they are. Just tell me.
As I said, I don’t give them the benefit of the doubt.
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Old 10th February 2020, 10:04 PM   #43
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Okay, so far I see a link to a bank robbery 15 years ago and a lack of a benefit of a doubt.

I am not an IRA or Sinn Fein supporter. I recognize their past terrorism. I don’t forgive it. Many innocent people were killed by their thugs. But my understanding is that they pulled back from violent terrorism with the Good Friday agreement in 1998. Life in The UK is safer because of this. Many of their thugs have died or are simply too old to do much. Many of the people in Sinn Fein today never committed violence. Refusal to acknowledge this seems to me to be counterproductive. Sure they can change back to violence again, so being cautious and suspicious of them makes sense. But not recognizing they are important political powers in Ireland that need to involved in foreign and internal policy issues seems impractical.

Again they are not the only terror group that now is a part of a legitimate government.

Last edited by Giordano; 10th February 2020 at 10:06 PM.
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Old 10th February 2020, 10:07 PM   #44
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Originally Posted by rockinkt View Post
(For more proof of that type of voting behaviour - see the United States' 45th - and most likely 46th - president)
Just as a totally unrelated side note, but you are aware that should Trump win re-election, he will remain the 45th president. #46 will be the President after Trump, whether that is in the Election this year, as a result of his inability to complete his term, or in the case of his re-election this year, whoever is elected in 2024. Re-elected Presidents don't increase the number. Unless you are suggesting that whoever follows Trump will also be elected because of people's hatred and prejudices?
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Old 10th February 2020, 10:23 PM   #45
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Originally Posted by Giordano View Post
Okay, so far I see a link to a bank robbery 15 years ago and a lack of a benefit of a doubt.

I am not an IRA or Sinn Fein supporter. I recognize their past terrorism. I don’t forgive it. Many innocent people were killed by their thugs. But my understanding is that they pulled back from violent terrorism with the Good Friday agreement in 1998. Life in The UK is safer because of this. Many of their thugs have died or are simply too old to do much. Many of the people in Sinn Fein today never committed violence. Refusal to acknowledge this seems to me to be counterproductive. Sure they can change back to violence again, so being cautious and suspicious of them makes sense. But not recognizing they are important political powers in Ireland that need to involved in foreign and internal policy issues seems impractical.

Again they are not the only terror group that now is a part of a legitimate government.
No one is stopping you from having your view on Sinn Fein. You haven’t said anything to persuade me to change my view though.
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Old 11th February 2020, 12:08 AM   #46
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Originally Posted by rockinkt View Post
Killing defenseless people - especially women and children - is the specialty of the IRA scum and always will be. Sinn Fein is just another name for those animals and always will be.
They must be losing their touch, having not killed anyone with a bomb for 24 years.

Do you protest as vehemently about US killing innocent civilians with drones?
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Old 11th February 2020, 12:45 AM   #47
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Originally Posted by Giordano View Post
Okay, so far I see a link to a bank robbery 15 years ago and a lack of a benefit of a doubt.
The bank robbery connection proves that they have only pulled back - not changed their ways. What do you think the money will be used for - paying money to all the families of the people they raped, tortured and murdered - or for a war chest?

Quote:
But my understanding is that they pulled back from violent terrorism with the Good Friday agreement in 1998. Life in The UK is safer because of this.
Hilarious! Picture this: "Your Honor - my client stopped murdering people a while back. He deserves to be thanked for making the community a safer place for people because the murder rate has dropped now that he has stopped murdering people.


Quote:
Many of their thugs have died or are simply too old to do much. Many of the people in Sinn Fein today never committed violence. Refusal to acknowledge this seems to me to be counterproductive.
The horrid and twisted mindset of people that are willing to rejoice in the past terrorist activities of such an organization and want to become a part of it should make any person with an ounce of common decency want to vomit.


Quote:
Sure they can change back to violence again, so being cautious and suspicious of them makes sense. But not recognizing they are important political powers in Ireland that need to involved in foreign and internal policy issues seems impractical.
Having to hold one's nose when dealing with horrible people and horrid regimes is nothing new on the national and international stage.

Quote:
Again they are not the only terror group that now is a part of a legitimate government.
True - but that does not make them free from the fact that they are a terrorist organization that venerates their horrible former members and acts of terrorism. They should never be allowed to forget that.
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Last edited by rockinkt; 11th February 2020 at 12:46 AM.
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Old 11th February 2020, 12:56 AM   #48
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They haven’t done terrorism for years, and other people once did terrorism, too.

Martin McGuinness was the First Minister until 2017 and only died that same year. Gerry Adams was a TD until, literally, yesterday.

It’s not as if those involved in actual IRA activities are long gone.

For me, the burden of proof is on them to show they can be trusted. They have to earn that trust and haven’t yet.
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Old 11th February 2020, 01:00 AM   #49
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Originally Posted by Guybrush Threepwood View Post
It's a 'win' in the same way Hillary Clinton 'won' the US presidency in 2016.
It is exactly not like that at all.

Unlike the WTA elections in the US, I understand that Ireland has multi-member electorates elected by PR using STV. Preferences don't matter a whit in the US but they are important in Ireland.
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Old 11th February 2020, 01:05 AM   #50
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Originally Posted by The Atheist View Post
They must be losing their touch, having not killed anyone with a bomb for 24 years.
They have been dormant for periods of time in the past.

Quote:
Do you protest as vehemently about US killing innocent civilians with drones?
You bet! We Canadians are not really happy about innocent civilians being killed by anyone.
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Old 11th February 2020, 02:27 AM   #51
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Originally Posted by The Atheist View Post
They must be losing their touch, having not killed anyone with a bomb for 24 years.



Do you protest as vehemently about US killing innocent civilians with drones?
Er?

https://www.belfasttelegraph.co.uk/n...-37401014.html

Terrorists in NI have been continuing to bomb and shoot people all this century. That your news sources apparently don't carry those stories is quite strange if they are interested in reporting terrorist stories from the UK.
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Old 11th February 2020, 02:59 AM   #52
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And coincidentally today this news has broken. BBC News - Lyra McKee murder: Four men arrested in Derry
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-northe...-west-51457008
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Old 11th February 2020, 03:03 AM   #53
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Originally Posted by Giordano View Post
IMHO this thread could legitimately be jointed to the Brexit thread.
No. While the issues are similar, desperate idiots believing promised by populists, it's not that Brexit related. To voters Brexit was a non-issue.

Originally Posted by Giordano View Post
Admittedly I am a USA citizen, but it appeared to me that Brexit and the re-introduction of a border (of some kind, somewhere) between the Republic and Northern Ireland would inevitably stir-up Irish Nationalist feelings and concerns.
That was bugger all to so with the vote; it was entirely domestic issues, to wit, housing and health.

Originally Posted by Giordano View Post
Welcome to the Troubles II?
It'll incite the lunatic fringes in Norn Iron but not yet.
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Old 11th February 2020, 03:06 AM   #54
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Originally Posted by dudalb View Post
Troubles III ,actually.

Troubles I: the Irish War of Independence aka "The Black and Tan war" 1916-1922.
Troubles II The Ulster war 1968-1998.

Before Ulster flared up, "The Troubles" was used as a term for the 1916 to 1922 war .
Sixth.
You're forgetting:
The Emergency of 1939-40
The Emergency, part 2: 1932-44
The Border Campaign of 1956-62 ("The Patriot Game""
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Old 11th February 2020, 03:07 AM   #55
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Originally Posted by catsmate View Post
No. While the issues are similar, desperate idiots believing promised by populists, it's not that Brexit related. To voters Brexit was a non-issue.





That was bugger all to so with the vote; it was entirely domestic issues, to wit, housing and health.





It'll incite the lunatic fringes in Norn Iron but not yet.
Yep. And in one way there is some good news from the vote, SF is a left party. Shows that the idea Europe is moving relentlessly rightwards isn't correct.
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Old 11th February 2020, 03:09 AM   #56
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Originally Posted by dudalb View Post
No to mention the whole "we will not be ruled by the Papists" thing.....

"Home Rule Is Rome Rule".....
Actually these days the problem is Ireland is notably more liberal on social issues (SSM, pregnancy termination, LGBT rights, racism et cetera) that the northern rump.
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Old 11th February 2020, 03:11 AM   #57
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Originally Posted by Robin View Post
Would you say that about the people who crashed planes into the World Trade Center towers?
Or Sam Adams and his fellows...
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Old 11th February 2020, 03:13 AM   #58
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Originally Posted by catsmate View Post
Actually these days the problem is Ireland is notably more liberal on social issues (SSM, pregnancy termination, LGBT rights, racism et cetera) that the northern rump.
Slightly disagree, I'd say it is the rabidly "religious" unionists parties that are in the dark ages, but from surveys the population seems pretty much in line with Ireland.
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Old 11th February 2020, 03:27 AM   #59
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Originally Posted by Darat View Post
Yep. And in one way there is some good news from the vote, SF is a left party. Shows that the idea Europe is moving relentlessly rightwards isn't correct.
Yes, but...

There's a new left/right divide in Irish politics but it's very fragmented and based on reaction to domestic issues. The 'old left' of Labour (and I'll include the SDs there) isn't doing well and the vote share is going to the Greens and Sinn Féin who, frankly, aren't fit to govern. Plus lots of independents and fringe idiots (remember Wallace ).

Plus let's look at the numbers:
38 Fianna Fáil
37 Sinn Féin (plus Tóibín)
35 Fine Gael
12 SD/Labour
12 Greens
6 Solidarity/PBP/I4C
18 Independents

Try and get a stable block of eighty out of that....

An xmas election I suspect.


Also I'd like to know the five thousand who voted for Barrett, Reynolds and their fellow fascists.
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Old 11th February 2020, 03:29 AM   #60
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Originally Posted by Darat View Post
Slightly disagree, I'd say it is the rabidly "religious" unionists parties that are in the dark ages, but from surveys the population seems pretty much in line with Ireland.
Oh yes, however the rabids control the DUP to a huge extent.
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Old 11th February 2020, 04:51 AM   #61
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My comment here;

Originally Posted by Nessie View Post
All Sinn Fein are doing is promoting support for and waiting for a sufficient majority to vote for a united Ireland.

If enough people vote to unite Ireland, the Unionists would hopefully accept the result.
...was not meant to suggest that all Unionists would accept the vote, as some seem to think.

The reality would be more likely to be; a reigniting of the Troubles by Unionists inclined to violence and an exodus of others to live in the UK.

There are also moderate Unionists who would remain and who would accept democracy.

What they then do, who knows? They may try to keep NI as a devolved part of Ireland, so Ireland becomes like the UK, with devolved and a central government. I am sure they would try to retain and even further promote their Ulster and Protestant heritage, history and identities.

Only time will tell, I doubt anything will happen in my life time, but I do think Ireland will eventually unite.
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Old 11th February 2020, 05:16 AM   #62
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Originally Posted by Nessie View Post
My comment here;



...was not meant to suggest that all Unionists would accept the vote, as some seem to think.

The reality would be more likely to be; a reigniting of the Troubles by Unionists inclined to violence and an exodus of others to live in the UK.

There are also moderate Unionists who would remain and who would accept democracy.

What they then do, who knows? They may try to keep NI as a devolved part of Ireland, so Ireland becomes like the UK, with devolved and a central government. I am sure they would try to retain and even further promote their Ulster and Protestant heritage, history and identities.

Only time will tell, I doubt anything will happen in my life time, but I do think Ireland will eventually unite.
In the meantime, do the majority of people in Ireland want the six counties and the baggage that goes with it? Sound like a major law enforcement headache.
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"Evolution and Ethics" T.H. Huxley (1893)
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Old 11th February 2020, 05:26 AM   #63
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Originally Posted by Giordano View Post
Okay, so far I see a link to a bank robbery 15 years ago and a lack of a benefit of a doubt.

I am not an IRA or Sinn Fein supporter. I recognize their past terrorism. I don’t forgive it. Many innocent people were killed by their thugs. But my understanding is that they pulled back from violent terrorism with the Good Friday agreement in 1998. Life in The UK is safer because of this. Many of their thugs have died or are simply too old to do much. Many of the people in Sinn Fein today never committed violence. Refusal to acknowledge this seems to me to be counterproductive. Sure they can change back to violence again, so being cautious and suspicious of them makes sense. But not recognizing they are important political powers in Ireland that need to involved in foreign and internal policy issues seems impractical.

Again they are not the only terror group that now is a part of a legitimate government.
Exactly. If there is to be no one who has a past that involved the supporting of terrorism, either actively planting bombs or enabling those who did, then many from both sides should not be in politics.

Sinn Fein supporters and politicians do not see themselves as the ones in the wrong. They can point to plenty of violence by the UK army and RUC during the Troubles.
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Old 11th February 2020, 05:26 AM   #64
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Originally Posted by angrysoba View Post
In the meantime, do the majority of people in Ireland want the six counties and the baggage that goes with it? Sound like a major law enforcement headache.
Not if you explain the costs.
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Old 11th February 2020, 05:32 AM   #65
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Originally Posted by Robin View Post
Would you say that about the people who crashed planes into the World Trade Center towers?
I'm sure there are plenty of people in the world that see Al-Qaeda as a legitimate authority and their use of violence as necessary and moral.
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Old 11th February 2020, 05:51 AM   #66
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Originally Posted by SuburbanTurkey View Post
I'm sure there are plenty of people in the world that see Al-Qaeda as a legitimate authority and their use of violence as necessary and moral.
As British, we are taught that fighting back against our numerous invasions, occupations, colonialisations and other foreign wars, interventions and excursions, is often the work of evil terrorists.
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Old 11th February 2020, 06:11 AM   #67
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Originally Posted by Nessie View Post
As British, we are taught that fighting back against our numerous invasions, occupations, colonialisations and other foreign wars, interventions and excursions, is often the work of evil terrorists.
I think most Irish people also see the IRA as terrorists, and most British people hopefully see “loyalist” paramilitaries as terrorist scum as well.
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"The thief and the murderer follow nature just as much as the philanthropist. Cosmic evolution may teach us how the good and the evil tendencies of man may have come about; but, in itself, it is incompetent to furnish any better reason why what we call good is preferable to what we call evil than we had before."

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Old 11th February 2020, 06:21 AM   #68
SuburbanTurkey
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Originally Posted by angrysoba View Post
I think most Irish people also see the IRA as terrorists, and most British people hopefully see “loyalist” paramilitaries as terrorist scum as well.
Probably depends on which era of the IRA you are referring to.

The provos operating in the time of The Troubles probably have the most unpalatable reputation. I doubt there is much allure to that type of militancy when reunification seems within grasp through non-violent means.
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Old 11th February 2020, 07:52 AM   #69
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Originally Posted by SuburbanTurkey View Post
Probably depends on which era of the IRA you are referring to.

The provos operating in the time of The Troubles probably have the most unpalatable reputation. I doubt there is much allure to that type of militancy when reunification seems within grasp through non-violent means.
Yes, by IRA, I am referring to the Provos. Although the same can be said of the Conts.
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"Evolution and Ethics" T.H. Huxley (1893)
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Old 11th February 2020, 08:08 AM   #70
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Originally Posted by Giordano View Post
Okay, so far I see a link to a bank robbery 15 years ago and a lack of a benefit of a doubt.

I am not an IRA or Sinn Fein supporter. I recognize their past terrorism. I don’t forgive it. Many innocent people were killed by their thugs. But my understanding is that they pulled back from violent terrorism with the Good Friday agreement in 1998. Life in The UK is safer because of this. Many of their thugs have died or are simply too old to do much. Many of the people in Sinn Fein today never committed violence. Refusal to acknowledge this seems to me to be counterproductive. Sure they can change back to violence again, so being cautious and suspicious of them makes sense. But not recognizing they are important political powers in Ireland that need to involved in foreign and internal policy issues seems impractical.

Again they are not the only terror group that now is a part of a legitimate government.
Originally Posted by angrysoba View Post
No one is stopping you from having your view on Sinn Fein. You haven’t said anything to persuade me to change my view though.
Do you have the same attitude toward Fine Gael and Fianna Fail? They both had their origins in the IRA which even in 1922 was a terrorist organization, especially Fianna fail, they lost the Civil War but quickly took political power for something like 70 years.

Originally Posted by angrysoba View Post
They haven’t done terrorism for years, and other people once did terrorism, too.

Martin McGuinness was the First Minister until 2017 and only died that same year. Gerry Adams was a TD until, literally, yesterday.

It’s not as if those involved in actual IRA activities are long gone.

For me, the burden of proof is on them to show they can be trusted. They have to earn that trust and haven’t yet.
It really does appear as though they legitimately gave up violence in 1998. How long do you need to believe they have changed.

Originally Posted by catsmate View Post
Sixth.
You're forgetting:
The Emergency of 1939-40
The Emergency, part 2: 1932-44
The Border Campaign of 1956-62 ("The Patriot Game""
Don't forget the civil war.
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Old 11th February 2020, 11:13 AM   #71
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Originally Posted by Darat View Post
Terrorists in NI have been continuing to bomb and shoot people all this century. That your news sources apparently don't carry those stories is quite strange if they are interested in reporting terrorist stories from the UK.
Ok, someone hasn't been editing Wikipedia, then.

I'll settle for "vastly reduced terrorist attacks" this century.

However, none of it appears to be connected to Sinn Fein.
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Old 11th February 2020, 11:48 AM   #72
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Originally Posted by Nessie View Post
A united Ireland moves another step closer.
Originally Posted by Craig4 View Post
As does an independent Scotland. Everyone may soon get what they want from Brexit. The countries in the UK who wanted to stay will and the countries that wanted to leave will. They just won't be the UK anymore.
If they've got any sense they'll wait for Boris to spend squillions of pounds on the bridge before they leave the UK.
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Old 11th February 2020, 12:50 PM   #73
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I would bet a reborn Dal Riata before a united Ireland. Scotland and Ulster decide to leave the UK for the European Union as the United Kingdom of Scotland and Northern Ireland.
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Old 11th February 2020, 01:03 PM   #74
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Originally Posted by catsmate View Post
Yes, but...



There's a new left/right divide in Irish politics but it's very fragmented and based on reaction to domestic issues. The 'old left' of Labour (and I'll include the SDs there) isn't doing well and the vote share is going to the Greens and Sinn Féin who, frankly, aren't fit to govern. Plus lots of independents and fringe idiots (remember Wallace ).



Plus let's look at the numbers:

38 Fianna Fáil

37 Sinn Féin (plus Tóibín)

35 Fine Gael

12 SD/Labour

12 Greens

6 Solidarity/PBP/I4C

18 Independents



Try and get a stable block of eighty out of that....



An xmas election I suspect.





Also I'd like to know the five thousand who voted for Barrett, Reynolds and their fellow fascists.
That's Ireland's own fault for not having the superior voting system we have in the UK for general elections. They should apply to become a member of the UK!
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Old 11th February 2020, 01:26 PM   #75
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Originally Posted by Giordano View Post
What is the evidence that the current IRA is linked to these current violent terrorist factions? I am not arguing they are not, nor that they are. Just tell me.
Which IRA? There are a number of groups calling themselves the IRA out there.
Problem is given the 'Official" IRA's history, it's not unreasonable to suspect their non violence is just a tacitical move, and they will go back to their old ways when they think the time is right.
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Old 11th February 2020, 01:29 PM   #76
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Originally Posted by angrysoba View Post
In the meantime, do the majority of people in Ireland want the six counties and the baggage that goes with it? Sound like a major law enforcement headache.
That is a dirty little secret; A lot of people in the Republic sing the songs, and shout "4 Green Fields" but in reality don't want the whole mess of Ulster handed to them.
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Old 11th February 2020, 01:31 PM   #77
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Originally Posted by Nessie View Post
As British, we are taught that fighting back against our numerous invasions, occupations, colonialisations and other foreign wars, interventions and excursions, is often the work of evil terrorists.
DO you think the 9/11 attacks were justified?
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Old 11th February 2020, 01:52 PM   #78
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Originally Posted by dudalb View Post
DO you think the 9/11 attacks were justified?
No. Do you think all of the numerous US military actions in the Middle East were justified?
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Old 11th February 2020, 03:50 PM   #79
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IMO the "Irish Question" has generated among the most long lasting hatreds/never forget emotions of any political conflict. Events of hundreds of years ago are still periodically paraded out (sometimes literally) to revisit and to re-enliven these hatreds. At one level I understand. I've already indicated in another thread how I could never forgive if a loved one of mine was killed as "collateral damage" in a military strike. Worse still in a terrorist action.

But I still maintain that things change in ways that are important to recognize, if only for practical reasons. Terrorists die and are replaced with people who have not performed violent acts. Choosing to identify with and join Sinn Fenn may not laudable, but in effect these new recruits are changing Sinn Fenn from within, replacing violent thugs with people seeking achieving goals though politic action. Trust them or not, but one can still recognize the changes that have occurred. Fail to do so and one dooms both sides to an dystopian future that just extends the evils of the past hundreds of years.
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Old 11th February 2020, 03:58 PM   #80
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Originally Posted by dudalb View Post
Which IRA? There are a number of groups calling themselves the IRA out there.
Problem is given the 'Official" IRA's history, it's not unreasonable to suspect their non violence is just a tacitical move, and they will go back to their old ways when they think the time is right.
The IRA with which Sinn Fein is associated. Recognizing that even that "official" IRA was/is composed of a spectrum of different subgroups, such as the provos. It is Sinn Fenn that is the topic of this thread.

That IRA has engaged in twenty years of a clear and documented pullback from violence since the Good Friday accords. If this was a tactical move then it has been a long one and certainly worth responding to appropriately to encourage its solidification and lengthy extension into the future. Perhaps if this "tactical move" is recognized and 'exploited" properly "they" will not go back to their old ways. Especially since so many of the most violent "they" are dead or very old farts.

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