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Tags Aaron Zelinsky , donald trump , Jonathan Kravis , roger stone , Trump administration , Trump controversies

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Old 12th February 2020, 07:54 AM   #41
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Originally Posted by Donal View Post
1) does this president strike you as being bothered by things like perception or norms?
Trump is obsessed with perception. Not yours, mind you. He's quite willing to offend when he thinks he's got something to gain, but I think he's more calculating about that than you give him credit for. In this case, I think the marginal benefit of a pardon over a commutation won't justify the pardon for him. I could be wrong, I'm no 100% or even 90% confident, but I'd still put the odds of a commutation above the odds of a pardon.

Quote:
2) He will more likely get bored when someone tries to explain to him what "commuted sentence" means say say "$%^& it, just pardon him"
This level of analysis may be comforting, but it's not actually useful.
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Old 12th February 2020, 08:09 AM   #42
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Originally Posted by Minoosh View Post
If he's going to be pardoned, what's the point of quibbling over the sentencing recommendation?
Originally Posted by alfaniner View Post
So that The PDJT can Tweet that the original sentencing was "So unfair!", and he corrected it because he knows more than lawyers do.
Basically this.
Trump wants to be able to blame Barr if a Pardon backfires, politically.
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Old 12th February 2020, 09:57 AM   #43
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Originally Posted by The Great Zaganza View Post
Basically this.
Trump wants to be able to blame Barr if a Pardon backfires, politically.
He credits Barr for stepping up to the plate, but even if it doesn't backfire politically I'm pretty sure Barr is violating ethical standards. We have an adversarial legal system. The top prosecutor should not be advocating for the defendent. He shouldn't be at cross-purposes with his front-line prosecutors. It's a massive conflict of interest, IMO. It's almost like Trump is fingering him on purpose.

Trump has no professional certification to lose. Barr does. I think he cares a lot about what other lawyers think of him. Butting into a case involving his boss's friend, to the benefit of said friend ... I'm not a lawyer, but these guys are supposed to avoid even an appearance of conflict of interests. We've learned that the president has enormous leeway that had simply never been tested before. Especially if he has a Senate majority. But Barr's in a different situation. It could end badly for him.
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Old 12th February 2020, 09:57 AM   #44
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Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
Trump is obsessed with perception. Not yours, mind you. He's quite willing to offend when he thinks he's got something to gain, but I think he's more calculating about that than you give him credit for. In this case, I think the marginal benefit of a pardon over a commutation won't justify the pardon for him. I could be wrong, I'm no 100% or even 90% confident, but I'd still put the odds of a commutation above the odds of a pardon.



This level of analysis may be comforting, but it's not actually useful.
This is rather in the be vein of Collins's naive claim that the impeachment taught Trumpy a lesson. I think you give the dictator-in-making too much credit. He's far more stimulus/response than analyze/plan. What cognition there is is more of the primitive, instinctive, crafty, gut-level survival reflex.
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Old 12th February 2020, 10:03 AM   #45
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Rudy for AG!
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Old 12th February 2020, 10:16 AM   #46
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Originally Posted by Minoosh View Post
It's almost like Trump is fingering him on purpose.
Which is exactly what is happening. Trump is incriminating Barr so that Barr has no choice but to keep protecting Trump, and thereby protect himself.
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Old 12th February 2020, 10:17 AM   #47
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Originally Posted by Minoosh View Post
Rudy for AG!
Oh gods, that's actually likely.
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Old 12th February 2020, 10:17 AM   #48
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Originally Posted by Minoosh View Post
Rudy for AG!
AG hell. We'll be lucky to keep him off the Supreme Court.
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Old 12th February 2020, 10:29 AM   #49
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Originally Posted by Lurch View Post
This is rather in the be vein of Collins's naive claim that the impeachment taught Trumpy a lesson. I think you give the dictator-in-making too much credit. He's far more stimulus/response than analyze/plan. What cognition there is is more of the primitive, instinctive, crafty, gut-level survival reflex.
It's easy to think that about him, but if his reflex is "crafty," is it really just a reflex? He has pretty adroitly combined stimulus/response AND cunning, using his tantrums to distract from policy stuff that is really happening. Apparently when a sociopath decides to turn on the charm he can be delightful. Especially used in combination with his rages. It's like his whole Cabinet has Stockholm syndrome, or is like some battered spouse. A lot of people think he is truly losing it, but we'e been here before many times in the past 3-4 years that I think it's a mistake to underestimate him.
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Old 12th February 2020, 10:29 AM   #50
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Can we please not talk about Trump fingering anybody? There are some mental images I really don't need.

Thanks.
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Old 12th February 2020, 10:31 AM   #51
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Originally Posted by Squeegee Beckenheim View Post
Can we please not talk about Trump fingering anybody? There are some mental images I really don't need.

Thanks.
He's probably saving it for Vlad anyway
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Old 12th February 2020, 10:33 AM   #52
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Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
AG hell. We'll be lucky to keep him off the Supreme Court.
Well he could make the court a *lot* more interesting.

ETA: He wanted to be Secretary of State, go around schmoozing oligarchs on the public's dime. Could have been very lucrative for him.

Last edited by Minoosh; 12th February 2020 at 10:37 AM.
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Old 12th February 2020, 10:43 AM   #53
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Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
AG hell. We'll be lucky to keep him off the Supreme Court.
I can only imagine the briefs him and Supreme Court Justice Pirro would write.
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Old 12th February 2020, 10:47 AM   #54
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Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
Trump is obsessed with perception. Not yours, mind you.
He wants to be perceived as a tough guy. Breaking norms is one way he thinks he pulls this off.

Quote:
He's quite willing to offend when he thinks he's got something to gain,
More like when he can't see a loss.

Quote:
but I think he's more calculating about that than you give him credit for.
His handlers are. But he tends to go off the rails from them.

Quote:
In this case, I think the marginal benefit of a pardon over a commutation won't justify the pardon for him. I could be wrong, I'm no 100% or even 90% confident, but I'd still put the odds of a commutation above the odds of a pardon.
You're thinking and using reason. That is where you are going wrong. The president goes off his first reaction.

Quote:
This level of analysis may be comforting, but it's not actually useful.
Based on reports from inside the White House, it is accurate.
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Old 12th February 2020, 11:00 AM   #55
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Originally Posted by Donal View Post
I can only imagine the briefs him and Supreme Court Justice Pirro would write.
Now I'm trying not to think about Rudi's briefs.
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Old 12th February 2020, 11:11 AM   #56
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Bush commuted Libby's sentence. Trump pardoned him.

If Stone's sentence is commuted, it won't be because Trump thought of it. He'll announce to staff that he intends to issue a pardon, and then some poindexter will say, "Hey, you can commute." Trump will ask, "What's that?" During the trek from the chopper to Mar-a-Lago he'll talk to reporters and use the word "commute" a half-dozen times, "I commuted his sentence because the Mueller prosecutors were being very unfair. A lot of people don't know what it means to be commuted, but it's one of the powers that I have under Article II."
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Old 12th February 2020, 02:58 PM   #57
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Slightly OT:

I looked up sentencing guidelines....
RS was convicted on 5 counts of making false statements to Congress.

The guideline is:

Quote:
...makes or uses any false writing or document knowing the same to contain any materially false, fictitious, or fraudulent statement or entry

shall be fined under this title, imprisoned not more than 5 years or, if the offense involves international or domestic terrorism (as defined in section 2331), imprisoned not more than 8 years, or both....
7-9 years is not unreasonable.
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Old 12th February 2020, 03:48 PM   #58
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Originally Posted by C_Felix View Post
Slightly OT:

I looked up sentencing guidelines....
RS was convicted on 5 counts of making false statements to Congress.

The guideline is:
...makes or uses any false writing or document knowing the same to contain any materially false, fictitious, or fraudulent statement or entry shall be fined under this title, imprisoned not more than 5 years or

7-9 years is not unreasonable.
I think one of the other things that went into the sentencing recommendation is the fact that Stone 1) Broke a gag order while awaiting trial, and 2) did so by posting a picture of the judge with 'crosshairs' (which could be seen as inciting violence)
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Old 12th February 2020, 10:54 PM   #59
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Originally Posted by smartcooky View Post
IIRC, the Judge in the Stone case is Amy Berman-Jackson

IIRC, Judge Berman Jackson doesn't take any **** from the DOJ. If she thinks the sentencing recommendation is too light, she will either ignore it or send it back with a "please try again" notice.
If she is ALLOWED to.
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Old 12th February 2020, 10:56 PM   #60
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Originally Posted by Random View Post
I don't know. He might be willing to pardon Stone, but someone would sit Trump down with slides and crayon drawings and explain that a Pardon would leave Stone open to subpoenas. Probably just get the sentence commutation like Scooter Libby.
Which would still open him to being subpoenaed. Once your sentence is served, it is served.
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Old 12th February 2020, 10:57 PM   #61
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Originally Posted by C_Felix View Post
Slightly OT:

I looked up sentencing guidelines....
RS was convicted on 5 counts of making false statements to Congress.

The guideline is:



7-9 years is not unreasonable.
It's a joke. Drop the traitors in the deepest hole to be found and fill it in on top of them.
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Old 13th February 2020, 03:15 AM   #62
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https://twitter.com/EamonJavers/stat...845442562?s=20

Quote:
Per pool reporter, President Trump was just asked in the Oval if he would pardon Roger Stone. He replied:
“I don't want to say that yet.”
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Old 13th February 2020, 03:20 AM   #63
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Barr will testify before the House Judiciary Committee next month
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Old 13th February 2020, 03:47 AM   #64
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This is all just to keep Stone Quiet on Jerome Corsi's Collusion with Russia in the 2016 Campaign and hide the Obstruction that saved Corsi and Trump.
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Old 13th February 2020, 03:59 AM   #65
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Originally Posted by Crazy Chainsaw View Post
This is all just to keep Stone Quiet on Jerome Corsi's Collusion with Russia in the 2016 Campaign and hide the Obstruction that saved Corsi and Trump.
it's more than that.
It's to demonstrate that everyone who crimes for Trump gets a out-of-jail-free Card.
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Old 13th February 2020, 04:47 AM   #66
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Originally Posted by The Great Zaganza View Post
it's more than that.
It's to demonstrate that everyone who crimes for Trump gets a out-of-jail-free Card.
Yes Total breakdown of Law and order and logic.
This didn't start with Donald John Trump, though this started with the breakdown of Investigative Journalism, and the adoption of what used to be known as Yellow Journalism, now just full out Propogandists.
I saw this occuring a decade ago, but stayed silent now your seeing it brought mainstream It's McConnell Republicanism do anything even murder if you need too to win.
I am not saying the sky is falling, I am saying the asteroid has already hit and you better be sheltering from the rain of Motlen BS. coming from Trump's Administration.
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Old 13th February 2020, 05:03 AM   #67
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Lesson from Nixon Impeachment: we need better tools to investigate Presidents
Lesson from Clinton Impeachment: we went a bit too far, we need fewer tools to investigate Presidents
Lesson from Trump Impeachment: we need better tools to investigate those who dare to investigate the President.
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Old 13th February 2020, 05:58 AM   #68
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Originally Posted by The Great Zaganza View Post
Lesson from Nixon Impeachment: we need better tools to investigate Presidents
Lesson from Clinton Impeachment: we went a bit too far, we need fewer tools to investigate Presidents
Lesson from Trump Impeachment: we need better tools to investigate those who dare to investigate the President.
Lessons from Trump Presidency, any idiot who can't do a 5 seconds Google and debunk an idiot Conspiracy Theory shouldn't be President of the United States of America.
https://youtu.be/etu-cH-nkIA
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Old 13th February 2020, 07:16 AM   #69
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Originally Posted by ChristianProgressive View Post
If she is ALLOWED to.
There is no question of being allowed to do anything. Federal Judges are pretty much free to sentence as they like within the guidelines of the Law, regardless of the Prosecution's recommendation.
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Old 13th February 2020, 07:19 AM   #70
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https://twitter.com/alex_mallin/stat...78397452705793

Quote:
New: Sen @LindseyGrahamSC told @caphilltrish he was briefed by AG Barr on the DOJ's reversal in the Stone sentencing. Graham says Barr told him “that the guidelines call for 3 1/2 to 4 1/2 [yrs] for an offense like this" and DOJ made the decision on the reversal Monday night.
https://twitter.com/emptywheel/statu...78821274484736

Quote:
Basically, Lindsey is revealing that Bill Barr lied outright to him. And ... Lindsey is okay with that.
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Old 13th February 2020, 07:19 AM   #71
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Originally Posted by The Great Zaganza View Post
Lesson from Nixon Impeachment: we need better tools to investigate Presidents
Lesson from Clinton Impeachment: we went a bit too far, we need fewer tools to investigate Presidents
Lesson from Trump Impeachment: we need better tools to investigate those who dare to investigate the President.
Republican Lesson from Nixon Impeachment: We need better media tools to control the narrative and prevent another Republican President from ending up this way.

Republican Lesson from Trump Impeachment: Creation of FOX News and Sinclair group has proven successful.
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Old 13th February 2020, 07:19 AM   #72
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This whole charade seems more like a pretext to commute or pardon than an actual attempt to reduce his sentence. Judges have tremendous power in their courts, and this kind of stunt is not likely to sway Jackson's decision.

There's been a lot of speculation that Trump will start pardoning all his cronies after the election, since public perception won't matter at that point. Perhaps he's feeling bold with the impeachment acquittal under his belt and will start springing his cronies now.

Or perhaps Trump isn't planning to pardon, and his attempts to reduce sentencing is sincere. Hard to say.
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Old 13th February 2020, 07:20 AM   #73
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Originally Posted by Squeegee Beckenheim View Post
That's something I don't understand. AFAIK Barr was totally willing to blow off the House in impeachment hearings (actually I'm not really sure how much the House pursued him). But then Nadler says, "come over, we want to ask you some questions about what may be unethical behavior in the Stone case, " and he just days "sure" and it's penciled in for next month?

Does Barr think this will be good for the Trump administration?
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Old 13th February 2020, 07:23 AM   #74
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Originally Posted by The Great Zaganza View Post
Lesson from Nixon Impeachment: we need better tools to investigate Presidents
Lesson from Clinton Impeachment: we went a bit too far, we need fewer tools to investigate Presidents
Lesson from Trump Impeachment: we need better tools to investigate those who dare to investigate the President.
Lesson from Trump Impeachment: The US needs to codify Senate trial rules about witnesses and evidence and not throw together some slapdash set of rules and procedures .
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Old 13th February 2020, 08:05 AM   #75
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Rudy Giuliani attacking the Stone juror by name on Twitter.

No one is safe from Trump's vindictive justice department.
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Old 13th February 2020, 08:13 AM   #76
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Originally Posted by SuburbanTurkey View Post
This whole charade seems more like a pretext to commute or pardon than an actual attempt to reduce his sentence. Judges have tremendous power in their courts, and this kind of stunt is not likely to sway Jackson's decision.

There's been a lot of speculation that Trump will start pardoning all his cronies after the election, since public perception won't matter at that point. Perhaps he's feeling bold with the impeachment acquittal under his belt and will start springing his cronies now.

Or perhaps Trump isn't planning to pardon, and his attempts to reduce sentencing is sincere. Hard to say.
That's so Stone will not reviel who Jerome Corsi's Friend in the Russian Embassy in Italy is exposing Trumpsters actual Collusion with Russia!
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Old 13th February 2020, 08:37 AM   #77
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Trump Tweeted

Now it looks like the fore person in the jury, in the Roger Stone case, had significant bias. Add that to everything else, and this is not looking good for the “Justice” Department. @foxandfriends @FoxNews
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Old 13th February 2020, 08:39 AM   #78
The Great Zaganza
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Originally Posted by SuburbanTurkey View Post
Rudy Giuliani attacking the Stone juror by name on Twitter.

No one is safe from Trump's vindictive justice department.
Guiliani thinks it's unfair that Stone is the only one who got convicted for Witnesses Tampering.
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Old 13th February 2020, 08:56 AM   #79
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Originally Posted by Minoosh View Post
That's something I don't understand. AFAIK Barr was totally willing to blow off the House in impeachment hearings (actually I'm not really sure how much the House pursued him). But then Nadler says, "come over, we want to ask you some questions about what may be unethical behavior in the Stone case, " and he just days "sure" and it's penciled in for next month?

Does Barr think this will be good for the Trump administration?
Yes. He can blow off all criticism for a month, then have Trump block his testimony the night before and tell Congress to go **** themselves all while "cooperating." You don't think he's actually sincere about testifying, do you?
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Old 13th February 2020, 08:58 AM   #80
Squeegee Beckenheim
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Originally Posted by Captain_Swoop View Post
Trump Tweeted

Now it looks like the fore person in the jury, in the Roger Stone case, had significant bias. Add that to everything else, and this is not looking good for the “Justice” Department. @foxandfriends @FoxNews
Leaving aside the fact that this is blatantly setting up a parton/commutation, surely the people this reflects badly on would be Stone's lawyers who could dismiss any jury member they chose? Either they didn't think it was a problem at the time, or they didn't even bother to go as far as to google the jurors.
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