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Old 29th March 2020, 03:33 AM   #1
dann
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Capitalism and Its Beneficiaries, Rich People, Are the Spreaders of Coronavirus

In Denmark, it was quite obvious from the very beginning where the virus came from and how it got here. All you needed to do was combine a couple of statistics:
1) The first people infected with the virus had been to Austria or Italy, the vast majority had been skiing in Austria.
2) The age group with the most people tested positive: 40-49 (that's still the case!).
3) The three areas with the most people tested positive for coronavirus are 1) Gentofte, 2) Rudersdal and 3) Frederiksberg, Copenhagen - areas with above-average incomes. (I live in Frederiksberg.)

The three age groups with most hospitalizations, however, are 1) 80+, 2) 70-79, and 3) 60-69, i.e. not the people who typically go skiing in the Alps. (However, a few in their 60s did!)

And when you look at the rest of the world, a similar pattern emerges:
Eastern Australia's coronavirus hotspots revealed: map shows affluent Sydney suburbs hard hit (The Guardian, March 27, 2020)
Party Zero: How a Soirée in Connecticut Became a ‘Super Spreader’ (NYT, March 23, 2020)
Westport, Connecticut, Is the Latest Fraught Meeting Point of Coronavirus and Wealth (Vanity Fair, March 24, 2020)

The Australians probably didn't go skiing in the Alps, but apart from that it seems to be similar to the other cases.

An excellent CNN article describes how business considerations (the tourist trade) helped spread the virus from Austria to Northern Europe:

Quote:
Despite an official warning from the Icelandic government on March 4 that a group of its nationals had contracted coronavirus in Ischgl, Austrian authorities allowed ski tourism -- and the partying that goes with it -- to continue for another nine days before fully quarantining the resort on March 13. Bars in Ischgl were closed on March 10.
Even after a bartender tested positive for the virus, the medical authority of Tyrol -- where ski tourism is one of the biggest economic drivers -- reiterated in a press release on March 8 that there was "no reason to worry."
How an Austrian ski resort helped coronavirus spread across Europe (CNN, March 24, 2020)
Americans may consider how Florida welcomed spring breakers for similar reasons.

In Denmark, we also have idiots who claim that immigrants brought the virus into the country, but they didn't. The areas of Denmark with the lowest number of people infected with the virus are typically the areas with the most immigrants. And immigrants don't go skiing in the Alps. They visit their countries of origin. (Not a single case in Denmark is directly related to China.)

It might be tempting for some Danes to call it the Austrian virus or the virus from Tyrol, but that's not really the point: Austria as such didn't spread the virus to the rest of Europe. Business considerations did! And affluent tourists were the carriers of the capitalist virus.
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"The abolition of religion as the illusory happiness of the people is required for their real happiness. The demand to give up the illusion about its condition is the demand to give up a condition which needs illusions." K. Marx
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Old 29th March 2020, 04:16 AM   #2
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Originally Posted by dann View Post
In Denmark, we also have idiots who claim that immigrants brought the virus into the country, but they didn't.
Indeed. It was never immigrants anywhere.

Without getting into the meta politics of the situation, this is why the US president's constant pleading that he somehow saved the country or delayed the spread of the virus by shutting down travel by foreigners from China misses the mark, and the point. He "stopped the Chinese" from coming to the US; but returning American tourists and businessmen were never effected by this measure, and it was these individuals who represent the initial disease vectors. It seems to be the case in Denmark as well - and probably worldwide generally.
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Old 29th March 2020, 05:51 AM   #3
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mmmmmm, Class Warfare in the middle of a pandemic, this will go well
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Old 29th March 2020, 06:52 AM   #4
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Yes, that's bloody awful. I'm not surprised that it hasn't come to your attention yet that the Class War is already being waged by Trump and his ilk:
Trump's 'back-to-work' plan would only make things worse, experts say (The Guardian, March 24, 2020)
Coronavirus has Donald Trump and Dan Patrick ready to sacrifice older people (NBC News, March 26, 2020)
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"The abolition of religion as the illusory happiness of the people is required for their real happiness. The demand to give up the illusion about its condition is the demand to give up a condition which needs illusions." K. Marx
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Old 29th March 2020, 07:21 AM   #5
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I did notice that in the memos from my workplace they identified as risk factors "those who have travelled recently to China, or to Colorado ski resorts". That list has since expanded, but "ski resorts" showed up pretty early on.
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Old 29th March 2020, 07:28 AM   #6
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Originally Posted by dann View Post
In Denmark, it was quite obvious from the very beginning where the virus came from and how it got here. All you needed to do was combine a couple of statistics:
1) The first people infected with the virus had been to Austria or Italy, the vast majority had been skiing in Austria.
2) The age group with the most people tested positive: 40-49 (that's still the case!).
3) The three areas with the most people tested positive for coronavirus are 1) Gentofte, 2) Rudersdal and 3) Frederiksberg, Copenhagen - areas with above-average incomes. (I live in Frederiksberg.)

The three age groups with most hospitalizations, however, are 1) 80+, 2) 70-79, and 3) 60-69, i.e. not the people who typically go skiing in the Alps. (However, a few in their 60s did!)

And when you look at the rest of the world, a similar pattern emerges:
Eastern Australia's coronavirus hotspots revealed: map shows affluent Sydney suburbs hard hit (The Guardian, March 27, 2020)
Party Zero: How a Soirée in Connecticut Became a ‘Super Spreader’ (NYT, March 23, 2020)
Westport, Connecticut, Is the Latest Fraught Meeting Point of Coronavirus and Wealth (Vanity Fair, March 24, 2020)

The Australians probably didn't go skiing in the Alps, but apart from that it seems to be similar to the other cases.

An excellent CNN article describes how business considerations (the tourist trade) helped spread the virus from Austria to Northern Europe:


Americans may consider how Florida welcomed spring breakers for similar reasons.

In Denmark, we also have idiots who claim that immigrants brought the virus into the country, but they didn't. The areas of Denmark with the lowest number of people infected with the virus are typically the areas with the most immigrants. And immigrants don't go skiing in the Alps. They visit their countries of origin. (Not a single case in Denmark is directly related to China.)

It might be tempting for some Danes to call it the Austrian virus or the virus from Tyrol, but that's not really the point: Austria as such didn't spread the virus to the rest of Europe. Business considerations did! And affluent tourists were the carriers of the capitalist virus.
a) The Aussies did go skiing in Colorado. Hmm, some CO resorts use labor hired from Singapore, my nephew married one... How about Euro resorts too? Because how did it get TO those resorts?

b) There are rich Chinese travelers too. I bet some even ski.
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Old 29th March 2020, 07:43 AM   #7
dann
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Originally Posted by casebro View Post
a) The Aussies did go skiing in Colorado. Hmm, some CO resorts use labor hired from Singapore, my nephew married one... How about Euro resorts too? Because how did it get TO those resorts?

A Euro ski resort is mentioned in the CNN article in my OP. TragicMonkey is the one who mentions Colorao.

Quote:
b) There are rich Chinese travelers too. I bet some even ski.

The (very thorough) CNN article doesn't mention any.
As to the way that the virus travelled from China to Austria, I'll venture a guess:
China-Iran relations (Wikipedia)
Iran-Italy relations (Wikipedia)
Tyrol (map) (Wikipedia)
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"Stupidity renders itself invisible by assuming very large proportions. Completely unreasonable claims are irrefutable. Ni-en-leh pointed out that a philosopher might get into trouble by claiming that two times two makes five, but he does not risk much by claiming that two times two makes shoe polish." B. Brecht
"The abolition of religion as the illusory happiness of the people is required for their real happiness. The demand to give up the illusion about its condition is the demand to give up a condition which needs illusions." K. Marx
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Old 29th March 2020, 07:47 AM   #8
dann
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Originally Posted by TragicMonkey View Post
I did notice that in the memos from my workplace they identified as risk factors "those who have travelled recently to China, or to Colorado ski resorts". That list has since expanded, but "ski resorts" showed up pretty early on.

Interesting. I hadn't heard about this. But I bet that Colorado ski resorts are mainly frequented by poor and downright destitute people from Wyoming and West Virginia!
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"Stupidity renders itself invisible by assuming very large proportions. Completely unreasonable claims are irrefutable. Ni-en-leh pointed out that a philosopher might get into trouble by claiming that two times two makes five, but he does not risk much by claiming that two times two makes shoe polish." B. Brecht
"The abolition of religion as the illusory happiness of the people is required for their real happiness. The demand to give up the illusion about its condition is the demand to give up a condition which needs illusions." K. Marx

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Old 29th March 2020, 08:09 AM   #9
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Okay, rich people travel more, and people who travel more were relatively more instrumental in spreading COVID-19.

So what? What action should be taken because of that?

And is that similar to the action that should be taken because gay people were relatively more instrumental in spreading AIDS?
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Old 29th March 2020, 08:21 AM   #10
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Don't see how this is a capitalist or business issue. Its a people who like to indulge themselves issue.

Eta: we have lots of not-so-well-off travellers, too. Is a once every two or three year family vacation a sin as well?
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Old 29th March 2020, 08:25 AM   #11
dann
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Originally Posted by Myriad View Post
Okay, rich people travel more, and people who travel more were relatively more instrumental in spreading COVID-19.

So what? What action should be taken because of that?

And is that similar to the action that should be taken because gay people were relatively more instrumental in spreading AIDS?

You mean, like, distribution of free condoms and safe-sex lectures???
I don't see how that would protect anybody from this virus or how it would have prevented it from spreading in the first place. And unlike HIV/AIDS, we have had a very good and early understanding of what we are dealing with in the case of Covid-19. In the case of AIDS, it took years before anybody knew what was going on - at one point it was described as gay cancer and one idea was that the environment of saunas, somehow, was a vector! (It would have been an extinction event for the Finns if that had been the case) - so, no, I see no resemblance at all.
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"Stupidity renders itself invisible by assuming very large proportions. Completely unreasonable claims are irrefutable. Ni-en-leh pointed out that a philosopher might get into trouble by claiming that two times two makes five, but he does not risk much by claiming that two times two makes shoe polish." B. Brecht
"The abolition of religion as the illusory happiness of the people is required for their real happiness. The demand to give up the illusion about its condition is the demand to give up a condition which needs illusions." K. Marx
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Old 29th March 2020, 08:32 AM   #12
dann
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Originally Posted by Thermal View Post
Don't see how this is a capitalist or business issue. Its a people who like to indulge themselves issue.

You didn't even read the quotation from the CNN article, did you? Haven't you heard Trump and his cronies talk about old people 'volunteering' to save big (as well as small) businesses?

Quote:
Eta: we have lots of not-so-well-off travellers, too. Is a once every two or three year family vacation a sin as well?

Did anybody mention sin? Why do the affluent areas appear to be the ones that are hit the hardest ... at first ... instead of the areas where the "not-so-well-off" people live?
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"Stupidity renders itself invisible by assuming very large proportions. Completely unreasonable claims are irrefutable. Ni-en-leh pointed out that a philosopher might get into trouble by claiming that two times two makes five, but he does not risk much by claiming that two times two makes shoe polish." B. Brecht
"The abolition of religion as the illusory happiness of the people is required for their real happiness. The demand to give up the illusion about its condition is the demand to give up a condition which needs illusions." K. Marx
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Old 29th March 2020, 09:17 AM   #13
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Originally Posted by dann View Post
You didn't even read the quotation from the CNN article, did you? Haven't you heard Trump and his cronies talk about old people 'volunteering' to save big (as well as small) businesses?
None of which extrapolated to being a capitalist virus. There was a bartender at the resort who tested positive, yes? Are we blaming the greedy service industry who comes to work to take in those juicy tourist tips?

Covid 19 is highly contagious. Exactly which socioeconomic group it spreads through initially is irrelevant. We live in a global society. It was going to travel. No need to associate it with capitalism.

Is CNN condemning the capitalist Chinese market where it originated?


Quote:
id anybody mention sin? Why do the affluent areas appear to be the ones that are hit the hardest ... at first ... instead of the areas where the "not-so-well-off" people live?
Doesn't matter really where it took hold first. This thing is an easy traveller. Not really the move to hang it on capitalism.
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Old 29th March 2020, 09:35 AM   #14
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Originally Posted by Thermal View Post
None of which extrapolated to being a capitalist virus. There was a bartender at the resort who tested positive, yes? Are we blaming the greedy service industry who comes to work to take in those juicy tourist tips?

Covid 19 is highly contagious. Exactly which socioeconomic group it spreads through initially is irrelevant. We live in a global society. It was going to travel. No need to associate it with capitalism.
There is every reason to associate the virus with capitalism when capitalism helps it spread.

The CNN quotation had only five lines, and you skipped the last two:
Quote:
Despite an official warning from the Icelandic government on March 4 that a group of its nationals had contracted coronavirus in Ischgl, Austrian authorities allowed ski tourism -- and the partying that goes with it -- to continue for another nine days before fully quarantining the resort on March 13. Bars in Ischgl were closed on March 10.
Even after a bartender tested positive for the virus, the medical authority of Tyrol -- where ski tourism is one of the biggest economic drivers -- reiterated in a press release on March 8 that there was "no reason to worry."
Quote:
Is CNN condemning the capitalist Chinese market where it originated?

Why don't you read it and find out?

Quote:
Doesn't matter really where it took hold first.

You could have fooled me! Isn't that what you just wanted the CNN article to tell you?

Quote:
This thing is an easy traveller. Not really the move to hang it on capitalism.

At this point, after it has found its way into every country on Earth, you no longer need to travel to get it. Wanting to suspend the restrictions that prevent it from spreading or slows it down is a capitalist calculation through and through. And so were the Chinese attempts to conceal what was happening in the beginning of the pandemic.

Quote:
Truth is not what you want it to be; it is what it is, and you must bend to its power or live a lie -Miyamoto Musashi
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"Stupidity renders itself invisible by assuming very large proportions. Completely unreasonable claims are irrefutable. Ni-en-leh pointed out that a philosopher might get into trouble by claiming that two times two makes five, but he does not risk much by claiming that two times two makes shoe polish." B. Brecht
"The abolition of religion as the illusory happiness of the people is required for their real happiness. The demand to give up the illusion about its condition is the demand to give up a condition which needs illusions." K. Marx

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Old 29th March 2020, 09:38 AM   #15
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Originally Posted by dann View Post
You mean, like, distribution of free condoms and safe-sex lectures???

Maybe, but I was asking you what measures you think should be taken. I've seen plenty of lectures (video segments, signs, instruction sheets) for COVID-19 safety; they're not "safe-sex" lectures only because the predominant vectors of spread are different. I've personally handed out free bottles of hand sanitizer (not condoms ditto predominant vectors) because I happened to have the materials on hand to make it. I'm sure it would be being widely handed out for free if a sufficient supply were available. None of those seem to have anything to do with who spread the disease in the past, though. For what it's worth, there are plenty of travel restrictions and limitations now already in effect.

Quote:
I don't see how that would protect anybody from this virus or how it would have prevented it from spreading in the first place. And unlike HIV/AIDS, we have had a very good and early understanding of what we are dealing with in the case of Covid-19. In the case of AIDS, it took years before anybody knew what was going on - at one point it was described as gay cancer and one idea was that the environment of saunas, somehow, was a vector! (It would have been an extinction event for the Finns if that had been the case) - so, no, I see no resemblance at all.

I do see a resemblance between your attempting to direct blame at the people who spread COVID-19, and the blame very frequently directed at gay men (often by media personalities and evangelicals) for spreading AIDS in the 80s and early 90s. It's a pretty clear resemblance, even though some of the details of the circumstances are different. There's also a clear resemblance to Trump's ongoing attempts to direct blame for COVID-19 at the Chinese people and government. ETA: Oh, I see you're doing that too. Good show.
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Old 29th March 2020, 09:54 AM   #16
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Originally Posted by dann View Post
There is every reason to associate the virus with capitalism when capitalism helps it spread.

The CNN quotation had only five lines, and you skipped the last two:





Why don't you read it and find out?




You could have fooled me! Isn't that what you just wanted the CNN article to tell you?




At this point, after it has found its way into every country on Earth, you no longer need to travel to get it. Wanting to suspend the restrictions that prevent it from spreading or slows it down is a capitalist calculation through and through. And so were the Chinese attempts to conceal what was happening in the beginning of the pandemic.
Dude, seriously. The CNN article, which you seem to think was handed down from Mr Siania on stone tablets, is a case study in confirmation bias. It was well on the hoof to have gotten from China to the Alps already. The resort managers could well be taken to task for hubris, and underestimation, and even greed. But it was already far too late. None of this makes it a capitalist virus. Sure, wealthy travellers sped it up in certain sectors. Who cares? It was well on its way by the very limited time and place the Most Holy CNN article, Peace and Love be unto it's Name, chose to randomly focus on and try to blame on a specific class.

And I'm working poor. COVID came to my beach town from a couple tourists (who were the first to test positive in local hospitals). Its easy to blame patient zero. Its just not what the smart people do in the face of a pandemic virus.

Eta: my Sig. Exactly. You want the truth to be 'bad old capitalist virus'. The Truth is, it's a highly contagious SARS bug. Its not the fault of a economic group, or economic principle. Go blame the Chinese if you want to point a finger. I don't blame people for viruses anymore.
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Old 29th March 2020, 10:04 AM   #17
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Originally Posted by TragicMonkey View Post
I did notice that in the memos from my workplace they identified as risk factors "those who have travelled recently to China, or to Colorado ski resorts". That list has since expanded, but "ski resorts" showed up pretty early on.

One of our first publicly known cases was a man who got infected in Singapore but then went on a sking holiday and probably infected more. Coronavirus: UK businessman linked to virus cases speaks out https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-51459210
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Old 29th March 2020, 10:14 AM   #18
dann
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Originally Posted by Myriad View Post
Maybe, but I was asking you what measures you think should be taken. I've seen plenty of lectures (video segments, signs, instruction sheets) for COVID-19 safety; they're not "safe-sex" lectures only because the predominant vectors of spread are different. I've personally handed out free bottles of hand sanitizer (not condoms ditto predominant vectors) because I happened to have the materials on hand to make it. I'm sure it would be being widely handed out for free if a sufficient supply were available. None of those seem to have anything to do with who spread the disease in the past, though. For what it's worth, there are plenty of travel restrictions and limitations now already in effect.

I'm sure it wouldn't be being handed out for free if a sufficient supply were available. That's not how capitalism works:
Air Force vet hoarded 17,700 bottles of hand sanitizer, then had no place to sell them — Sad! (AirForceTimes, March 17, 2020)
Yes, now there are travel restrictions in place. They should have been in place much sooner, and they could have been in place much sooner if it weren't for the short sighted interests of the tourism trade. Read the whole CNN article.

Quote:
I do see a resemblance between your attempting to direct blame at the people who spread COVID-19, and the blame very frequently directed at gay men (often by media personalities and evangelicals) for spreading AIDS in the 80s and early 90s. It's a pretty clear resemblance, even though some of the details of the circumstances are different. There's also a clear resemblance to Trump's ongoing attempts to direct blame for COVID-19 at the Chinese people and government. ETA: Oh, I see you're doing that too. Good show.

So gay men who had no idea what was happening somehow resemble business men and local authorities who have actually been told what is going on but who don't take the proper precautions, on the contrary, because in Tyrol, like in Florida at Spring Break, but not quite the same kind, "ski tourism [unlike beach, beer and booze tourism] is one of the biggest economic drivers."
Yes, that's a pretty clear resemblance. Only minor details differ, right?!
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"Stupidity renders itself invisible by assuming very large proportions. Completely unreasonable claims are irrefutable. Ni-en-leh pointed out that a philosopher might get into trouble by claiming that two times two makes five, but he does not risk much by claiming that two times two makes shoe polish." B. Brecht
"The abolition of religion as the illusory happiness of the people is required for their real happiness. The demand to give up the illusion about its condition is the demand to give up a condition which needs illusions." K. Marx
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Old 29th March 2020, 10:19 AM   #19
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Originally Posted by Thermal View Post
Dude, seriously. The CNN article, which you seem to think was handed down from Mr Siania on stone tablets, is a case study in confirmation bias. It was well on the hoof to have gotten from China to the Alps already. The resort managers could well be taken to task for hubris, and underestimation, and even greed. But it was already far too late. None of this makes it a capitalist virus. Sure, wealthy travellers sped it up in certain sectors. Who cares? It was well on its way by the very limited time and place the Most Holy CNN article, Peace and Love be unto it's Name, chose to randomly focus on and try to blame on a specific class.

And I'm working poor. COVID came to my beach town from a couple tourists (who were the first to test positive in local hospitals). Its easy to blame patient zero. Its just not what the smart people do in the face of a pandemic virus.

Eta: my Sig. Exactly. You want the truth to be 'bad old capitalist virus'. The Truth is, it's a highly contagious SARS bug. Its not the fault of a economic group, or economic principle. Go blame the Chinese if you want to point a finger. I don't blame people for viruses anymore.

I don't blame people for viruses. Well, at least in this case I don't. I show you how this particular virus has been spread due to business calculations; profits before health and lives.
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"Stupidity renders itself invisible by assuming very large proportions. Completely unreasonable claims are irrefutable. Ni-en-leh pointed out that a philosopher might get into trouble by claiming that two times two makes five, but he does not risk much by claiming that two times two makes shoe polish." B. Brecht
"The abolition of religion as the illusory happiness of the people is required for their real happiness. The demand to give up the illusion about its condition is the demand to give up a condition which needs illusions." K. Marx
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Old 29th March 2020, 10:43 AM   #20
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Originally Posted by dann View Post
I don't blame people for viruses. Well, at least in this case I don't. I show you how this particular virus has been spread due to business calculations; profits before health and lives.
Without shutting down borders and all air travel immediately upon it's discovery, do you think there was any practical way of stopping a highly contagious virus for which there was no ready test and many of the infected persons were asymptomatic?

If not, then the specific way it travelled through a specific subculture of wealthy skiers is immaterial. Certainly, capitalism was not the culprit. Hubris and resort managers not getting how serious of a problem this was surely contributed. But an actual Capitalist Virus? No.

Again, if you want to blame how it was spread, talk to the Chinese. By the time it was in ski lodges in Italy, twas too late. Its just an academic exercise to talk about the specifics of transmission by then. It is not Capitalism's fault by any means.
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Old 29th March 2020, 10:47 AM   #21
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Originally Posted by dann View Post
I'm disappointed! I thought that I was on the actual ignore list!
LOL. Nah. A body of work has to be extremely toxic and/or repetitive. Yours is nowhere near that point yet.

I was just wondering how many of the thousands dead in China were capitalists or its beneficiaries, but then I realized this wasn't the thread for that.

Originally Posted by Thermal View Post
Don't see how this is a capitalist or business issue. Its a people who like to indulge themselves issue.
Body of work. Capitalism is the issue. The demographics of C19 transmission are the stalking horse.
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Old 29th March 2020, 11:02 AM   #22
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Originally Posted by dann View Post
So gay men who had no idea what was happening somehow resemble business men and local authorities who have actually been told what is going on but who don't take the proper precautions, on the contrary, because in Tyrol, like in Florida at Spring Break, but not quite the same kind, "ski tourism [unlike beach, beer and booze tourism] is one of the biggest economic drivers."
Yes, that's a pretty clear resemblance. Only minor details differ, right?!

Right. The part you're not getting (and that I admittedly didn't explain very clearly) is that it's not about attitudes toward the specific individuals who actually did spread the disease. Few of the radio jocks who spread anti-gay blame for "gays causing the AIDS pandemic" were specifically directing that blame toward the individual gay (and straight) people who had gotten ill due to knowingly or unknowingly engaging in risky behaviors. They were blaming gay people in general. That distinction is where the borderline lies between dispassionate assessment of cause and effect, and blaming an entire group based on a characteristic they share.

So, the thread title: "Capitalism and Its Beneficiaries, Rich People, Are the Spreaders of Coronavirus." I see nothing there, or in the subsequent discussion, distinguishing between the rich capitalism beneficiaries (which describes nearly all Americans, by world standards) who actually spread the disease, those who risked doing so but got lucky and didn't, and the many who did nothing of the sort. You're clearly attempting to blame the entire group. There are other names for that pursuit.
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Old 29th March 2020, 11:38 AM   #23
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Originally Posted by applecorped View Post
mmmmmm, Class Warfare in the middle of a pandemic, this will go well
the true agenda of the leftist scum, the commintern has gone nowhere over time.
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Old 29th March 2020, 11:39 AM   #24
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Originally Posted by dann View Post
Yes, that's bloody awful. I'm not surprised that it hasn't come to your attention yet that the Class War is already being waged by Trump and his ilk:
Trump's 'back-to-work' plan would only make things worse, experts say (The Guardian, March 24, 2020)
Coronavirus has Donald Trump and Dan Patrick ready to sacrifice older people (NBC News, March 26, 2020)
immediately blame the other side, predictable
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Old 29th March 2020, 12:12 PM   #25
dann
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Originally Posted by Thermal View Post
Without shutting down borders and all air travel immediately upon it's discovery, do you think there was any practical way of stopping a highly contagious virus for which there was no ready test and many of the infected persons were asymptomatic?

Yes, obviously! 1) Make sure that people don't enter or leave Wuhan. 2) Make sure that people don't enter or leave China. 3) .... Iran ... Italy ... 4) Don't let people go to the Alps when Northern Italy appears to be infected.
But you miss the point of the article! People got infected in Tyrol for more than a week even after it had become apparent that the infection was spreading. And people were sent back to their respective countries when it was obvious to the Austrian authorities that a lot of them were probably already infected. An awful lot of things could have been done to stop the virus or at least slow it down, yet you argue that it would have been impossible.

Quote:
If not, then the specific way it travelled through a specific subculture of wealthy skiers is immaterial. Certainly, capitalism was not the culprit. Hubris and resort managers not getting how serious of a problem this was surely contributed. But an actual Capitalist Virus? No.

It wouldn't have been immaterial if some people weren't intent on denying what was happening because of the tourism trade. The irony is that the trade (and a lot of trade in other fields) has been harmed immensely because of the very shortsighted interest in letting the tourism trade in Tyrol continue. And it was not about people "not getting" it. It was about people getting but denying it, lying about it, because they didn't want to harm their shortsighted business interests.

Quote:
Again, if you want to blame how it was spread, talk to the Chinese. By the time it was in ski lodges in Italy, twas too late. Its just an academic exercise to talk about the specifics of transmission by then. It is not Capitalism's fault by any means.

Why are you so preoccupied with blame?! This is about how the the coronavirus was spread from Southern Europe to the rest of the continent. And the way it was spread appears to have things in common with how it was spread elsewhere. The Chinese authorities probably have a lot to do with the way that it got out of country, but they don't seem to have had much to do with the way that it got from Northern Italy to Scandinavia and Germany.

And in this context, it's also important to stress that the CIA and other U.S. spy organizations appear to have known about the virus running wild in China, which means that China's attempts to conceal what was happening weren't the reason why the USA wasn't prepared. The reason was that Trump either didn't believe the reports about this or didn't care. China can't be blamed for that.
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"The abolition of religion as the illusory happiness of the people is required for their real happiness. The demand to give up the illusion about its condition is the demand to give up a condition which needs illusions." K. Marx
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Old 29th March 2020, 12:16 PM   #26
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Originally Posted by rockysmith76 View Post
the true agenda of the leftist scum, the commintern has gone nowhere over time.
Originally Posted by rockysmith76 View Post
immediately blame the other side, predictable
Glad to see you've given up on your 'I'm a centrist!' claim nonsense.
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Old 29th March 2020, 12:34 PM   #27
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Originally Posted by dann View Post
I'm disappointed! I thought that I was on the actual ignore list!
You are now. Plonk.
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Old 29th March 2020, 12:38 PM   #28
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Originally Posted by Myriad View Post
Right. The part you're not getting (and that I admittedly didn't explain very clearly) is that it's not about attitudes toward the specific individuals who actually did spread the disease. Few of the radio jocks who spread anti-gay blame for "gays causing the AIDS pandemic" were specifically directing that blame toward the individual gay (and straight) people who had gotten ill due to knowingly or unknowingly engaging in risky behaviors. They were blaming gay people in general. That distinction is where the borderline lies between dispassionate assessment of cause and effect, and blaming an entire group based on a characteristic they share.

They also blamed "gay people in general", but it isn't true that "few of the radio jocks ... were specifically directing that blame toward the individual gay ..." I think you can learn something from this story: Gaëtan Dugas (Wikipedia). Feel free to imagine that I blame "an entire group." What I actually do is to show how capitalism and its beneficiaries spread the coronavirus.

Quote:
So, the thread title: "Capitalism and Its Beneficiaries, Rich People, Are the Spreaders of Coronavirus." I see nothing there, or in the subsequent discussion, distinguishing between the rich capitalism beneficiaries (which describes nearly all Americans, by world standards) who actually spread the disease, those who risked doing so but got lucky and didn't, and the many who did nothing of the sort. You're clearly attempting to blame the entire group. There are other names for that pursuit.

No, it doesn't describe "nearly all Americans." Capitalism doesn't benefit the vast majority of Americans. On the contrary. You are obsessed with the blame game instead of trying to find out how the virus spread to all corners of the world as fast as it did. And it is fairly obvious that the vector wasn't poor people in Wyoming or West Virginia. It also wasn't poor people in Ishøj, Samsø or Ærø.
You interpret the title of my OP as if it were: Capitalism and Its Beneficiaries, Rich People, Each and Every Single One of Them without Exception, Are the Spreaders of Coronavirus.
Feel free to do so if you think that it will help you deny what I actually write.
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"The abolition of religion as the illusory happiness of the people is required for their real happiness. The demand to give up the illusion about its condition is the demand to give up a condition which needs illusions." K. Marx

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Old 29th March 2020, 12:45 PM   #29
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Originally Posted by rockysmith76 View Post
immediately blame the other side, predictable

You mean, like, the 'Gina Virus'?
Okaaaaaayyy
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"Stupidity renders itself invisible by assuming very large proportions. Completely unreasonable claims are irrefutable. Ni-en-leh pointed out that a philosopher might get into trouble by claiming that two times two makes five, but he does not risk much by claiming that two times two makes shoe polish." B. Brecht
"The abolition of religion as the illusory happiness of the people is required for their real happiness. The demand to give up the illusion about its condition is the demand to give up a condition which needs illusions." K. Marx
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Old 29th March 2020, 01:17 PM   #30
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Originally Posted by Shalamar View Post
Glad to see you've given up on your 'I'm a centrist!' claim nonsense.
I never said centrist, I said both side suck, which they do. That partisan blinder thing is the thing in your way.
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Old 29th March 2020, 01:34 PM   #31
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Originally Posted by dann View Post
You are obsessed with the blame game instead of trying to find out how the virus spread to all corners of the world as fast as it did.

You started a thread essentially saying, let's play the blame game (and here's who to blame).

Now you're accusing people who respond of being obsessed with the blame game. That's... what it is, I suppose.

A thread for discussing trying to find out how the virus spread to all corners of the world as fast as it did would have been better named something like, "How did the virus spread to all corners of the world as fast as it did?"
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Old 29th March 2020, 01:53 PM   #32
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Originally Posted by rockysmith76 View Post
I never said centrist, I said both side suck, which they do. That partisan blinder thing is the thing in your way.

This is your claim. You fail to follow through. Your bias, and your obvious partisan blinders have you attacking 'lefties'/'leftists' non stop.

Yet you claim I have partisan blinders? You're a hard right winger, you just seem to lack the racism of your fellow righties displayed in this forum.
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Old 29th March 2020, 02:41 PM   #33
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Originally Posted by dann View Post
You mean, like, distribution of free condoms and safe-sex lectures???
I don't see how that would protect anybody from this virus or how it would have prevented it from spreading in the first place. And unlike HIV/AIDS, we have had a very good and early understanding of what we are dealing with in the case of Covid-19. In the case of AIDS, it took years before anybody knew what was going on - at one point it was described as gay cancer and one idea was that the environment of saunas, somehow, was a vector! (It would have been an extinction event for the Finns if that had been the case) - so, no, I see no resemblance at all.
That doesn't come close to answering the question. You're quick to blame the covid-19 outbreak on "rich people" but refuse to hold "gay people" to the same standards for the HIV pandemic. It's not because of some magnificent logic pretzel you've figured out, it's because you're afraid of upsetting GloboHomo.

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Old 29th March 2020, 02:45 PM   #34
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Originally Posted by rockysmith76 View Post
I never said centrist, I said both side suck, which they do. That partisan blinder thing is the thing in your way.
These people can only view the world of a white person's take of the 'left/right' paradigm. They do it with religious fervor and it's bizarrely fascinating but also incredibly frustrating.
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Old 29th March 2020, 02:46 PM   #35
dann
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Originally Posted by Myriad View Post
You started a thread essentially saying, let's play the blame game (and here's who to blame).

No. Instead of playing games, I started a thread saying, Capitalism and Its Beneficiaries, Rich People, Are the Spreaders of Coronavirus.

Quote:
Now you're accusing people who respond of being obsessed with the blame game. That's... what it is, I suppose.

A thread for discussing trying to find out how the virus spread to all corners of the world as fast as it did would have been better named something like, "How did the virus spread to all corners of the world as fast as it did?"

Then maybe you should start another thread with that question. I started a thread with an OP stating that capitalism and its beneficiaries, rich people, are the spreaders of coronavirus, and telling you how it took place in my corner of the world and with a reference to articles about two other places where it appeared to have happened in a similar manner.
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"The abolition of religion as the illusory happiness of the people is required for their real happiness. The demand to give up the illusion about its condition is the demand to give up a condition which needs illusions." K. Marx
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Old 29th March 2020, 02:50 PM   #36
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Originally Posted by Baylor View Post
That doesn't come close to answering the question. You're quick to blame the covid-19 outbreak on "rich people" but refuse to hold "gay people" to the same standards for the HIV pandemic. It's not because of some magnificent logic pretzel you've figured out, it's because you're afraid of upsetting GloboHomo.

Yes, I lie trembling in fear that the Lavender Mafia will send a hitman and infect me with gay. Go back to your white supremacist fantasies, Baylor.
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"Stupidity renders itself invisible by assuming very large proportions. Completely unreasonable claims are irrefutable. Ni-en-leh pointed out that a philosopher might get into trouble by claiming that two times two makes five, but he does not risk much by claiming that two times two makes shoe polish." B. Brecht
"The abolition of religion as the illusory happiness of the people is required for their real happiness. The demand to give up the illusion about its condition is the demand to give up a condition which needs illusions." K. Marx
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Old 29th March 2020, 05:56 PM   #37
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Originally Posted by dann View Post
No. Instead of playing games, I started a thread saying, Capitalism and Its Beneficiaries, Rich People, Are the Spreaders of Coronavirus.

Then maybe you should start another thread with that question. I started a thread with an OP stating that capitalism and its beneficiaries, rich people, are the spreaders of coronavirus, and telling you how it took place in my corner of the world and with a reference to articles about two other places where it appeared to have happened in a similar manner.

Yes, you started out the thread by assigning blame. Then you accused those disputing that of "playing the blame game" instead of "trying to find out how the virus spread to all corners of the world as fast as it did." And then you suggest that I should start another thread with that question.

But you're not playing games.

If you didn't actually want to discuss the topic you started, why did you start it? Is it because you just expected everyone to agree with you? Scapegoating entire groups of people for epidemics has a long and ugly history. It's not going to go unchallenged here. Sorry.
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Old 30th March 2020, 02:06 AM   #38
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Oh yes, the poor, underprivileged, scapegoated rich people! Who will speak out for them?!
I'll leave you to it.
In the meantime, I would rather take a look at the reality of this situation:

Rich Europeans Flee Virus for 2nd Homes, Spreading Fear and Fury (NYT, March 29, 2020)
COVID-19's Global Spread Among The Relatively Rich Has Been Remarkable (NPR, March 14, 2020)
It Pays to Be Rich during a Pandemic - How the wealthy, powerful, and connected are exploiting the loopholes in our health-care system (The Atlantic, March 15, 2020)
Super-rich jet off to disaster bunkers amid coronavirus outbreak - ‘Self isolate’ for some of world’s richest means Covid-19 tests abroad, personal medics and subterranean hideouts (The Guardian, March 11, 2020)
Coronavirus lifestyles of the rich and famous: how the 1% are coping - While the rest of us face the pandemic, the wealthy are donning face masks, boarding private jets and heading for the hills (The Guardian, March 13, 2020)

So does anybody still believe in the idea that the boomers are one, united group, who should sacrifice their lives for the common good of capitalism, when the actual beneficiaries of the economic system are either hiding out in their (no doubt luxurious) disaster bunkers waiting for a vaccine or busy spreading the virus to regions that would otherwise have been unaffected? (In Denmark, the often elderly inhabitants of a couple of so-far-unaffected islands are asking city dwellers with second homes on the islands to stay the **** away!)
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"The abolition of religion as the illusory happiness of the people is required for their real happiness. The demand to give up the illusion about its condition is the demand to give up a condition which needs illusions." K. Marx

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Old 30th March 2020, 05:52 AM   #39
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These guys also seem to get the idea:

A virus is haunting Europe - the vector is capitalism: The decision to defend capital has led to governments taking too little action too late to stop the spread of novel coronavirus. (The Ecologist, March 18, 2020)
Capitalism is an Incubator for Pandemics. Socialism is the Solution. (CounterPunch, March 20, 2020)
Coronavirus stimulus and disaster plans reveal cruelty of capitalist and politica ’realitly’ (NBC News, March 24, 2020)
Capitalist Death Panels: If corporate vultures get their way, we’ll be dead (The Intercept, March 25, 2020)
How Capitalism Kills during a Pandemic (Jacobin, March 26, 2020)
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"Stupidity renders itself invisible by assuming very large proportions. Completely unreasonable claims are irrefutable. Ni-en-leh pointed out that a philosopher might get into trouble by claiming that two times two makes five, but he does not risk much by claiming that two times two makes shoe polish." B. Brecht
"The abolition of religion as the illusory happiness of the people is required for their real happiness. The demand to give up the illusion about its condition is the demand to give up a condition which needs illusions." K. Marx
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Old 30th March 2020, 06:16 AM   #40
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Small rural towns are begging rich folk not to come out to their 2nd homes fleeing the disease. It's happening here in the Berkshires, wealthy folks from Boston are fleeing the city to their vacation homes, spreading the disease to rural communities ill equipped to deal with a health disaster.

https://theberkshireedge.com/great-b...-19-contagion/

Likewise in Blaine county Idaho, where wealthy resort towns have high infection rates.
https://www.npr.org/2020/03/27/82212...ould-come-here
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