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Capitalism and Its Beneficiaries, Rich People, Are the Spreaders of Coronavirus

dann

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In Denmark, it was quite obvious from the very beginning where the virus came from and how it got here. All you needed to do was combine a couple of statistics:
1) The first people infected with the virus had been to Austria or Italy, the vast majority had been skiing in Austria.
2) The age group with the most people tested positive: 40-49 (that's still the case!).
3) The three areas with the most people tested positive for coronavirus are 1) Gentofte, 2) Rudersdal and 3) Frederiksberg, Copenhagen - areas with above-average incomes. (I live in Frederiksberg.)

The three age groups with most hospitalizations, however, are 1) 80+, 2) 70-79, and 3) 60-69, i.e. not the people who typically go skiing in the Alps. (However, a few in their 60s did!)

And when you look at the rest of the world, a similar pattern emerges:
Eastern Australia's coronavirus hotspots revealed: map shows affluent Sydney suburbs hard hit (The Guardian, March 27, 2020)
Party Zero: How a Soirée in Connecticut Became a ‘Super Spreader’ (NYT, March 23, 2020)
Westport, Connecticut, Is the Latest Fraught Meeting Point of Coronavirus and Wealth (Vanity Fair, March 24, 2020)

The Australians probably didn't go skiing in the Alps, but apart from that it seems to be similar to the other cases.

An excellent CNN article describes how business considerations (the tourist trade) helped spread the virus from Austria to Northern Europe:

Despite an official warning from the Icelandic government on March 4 that a group of its nationals had contracted coronavirus in Ischgl, Austrian authorities allowed ski tourism -- and the partying that goes with it -- to continue for another nine days before fully quarantining the resort on March 13. Bars in Ischgl were closed on March 10.
Even after a bartender tested positive for the virus, the medical authority of Tyrol -- where ski tourism is one of the biggest economic drivers -- reiterated in a press release on March 8 that there was "no reason to worry."
How an Austrian ski resort helped coronavirus spread across Europe (CNN, March 24, 2020)
Click to expand...
Americans may consider how Florida welcomed spring breakers for similar reasons.

In Denmark, we also have idiots who claim that immigrants brought the virus into the country, but they didn't. The areas of Denmark with the lowest number of people infected with the virus are typically the areas with the most immigrants. And immigrants don't go skiing in the Alps. They visit their countries of origin. (Not a single case in Denmark is directly related to China.)

It might be tempting for some Danes to call it the Austrian virus or the virus from Tyrol, but that's not really the point: Austria as such didn't spread the virus to the rest of Europe. Business considerations did! And affluent tourists were the carriers of the capitalist virus.
 
dann said:
In Denmark, we also have idiots who claim that immigrants brought the virus into the country, but they didn't.
Click to expand...

Indeed. It was never immigrants anywhere.

Without getting into the meta politics of the situation, this is why the US president's constant pleading that he somehow saved the country or delayed the spread of the virus by shutting down travel by foreigners from China misses the mark, and the point. He "stopped the Chinese" from coming to the US; but returning American tourists and businessmen were never effected by this measure, and it was these individuals who represent the initial disease vectors. It seems to be the case in Denmark as well - and probably worldwide generally.
 
I did notice that in the memos from my workplace they identified as risk factors "those who have travelled recently to China, or to Colorado ski resorts". That list has since expanded, but "ski resorts" showed up pretty early on.
 
dann said:
In Denmark, it was quite obvious from the very beginning where the virus came from and how it got here. All you needed to do was combine a couple of statistics:
1) The first people infected with the virus had been to Austria or Italy, the vast majority had been skiing in Austria.
2) The age group with the most people tested positive: 40-49 (that's still the case!).
3) The three areas with the most people tested positive for coronavirus are 1) Gentofte, 2) Rudersdal and 3) Frederiksberg, Copenhagen - areas with above-average incomes. (I live in Frederiksberg.)

The three age groups with most hospitalizations, however, are 1) 80+, 2) 70-79, and 3) 60-69, i.e. not the people who typically go skiing in the Alps. (However, a few in their 60s did!)

And when you look at the rest of the world, a similar pattern emerges:
Eastern Australia's coronavirus hotspots revealed: map shows affluent Sydney suburbs hard hit (The Guardian, March 27, 2020)
Party Zero: How a Soirée in Connecticut Became a ‘Super Spreader’ (NYT, March 23, 2020)
Westport, Connecticut, Is the Latest Fraught Meeting Point of Coronavirus and Wealth (Vanity Fair, March 24, 2020)

The Australians probably didn't go skiing in the Alps, but apart from that it seems to be similar to the other cases.

An excellent CNN article describes how business considerations (the tourist trade) helped spread the virus from Austria to Northern Europe:


Americans may consider how Florida welcomed spring breakers for similar reasons.

In Denmark, we also have idiots who claim that immigrants brought the virus into the country, but they didn't. The areas of Denmark with the lowest number of people infected with the virus are typically the areas with the most immigrants. And immigrants don't go skiing in the Alps. They visit their countries of origin. (Not a single case in Denmark is directly related to China.)

It might be tempting for some Danes to call it the Austrian virus or the virus from Tyrol, but that's not really the point: Austria as such didn't spread the virus to the rest of Europe. Business considerations did! And affluent tourists were the carriers of the capitalist virus.
Click to expand...

a) The Aussies did go skiing in Colorado. Hmm, some CO resorts use labor hired from Singapore, my nephew married one... How about Euro resorts too? Because how did it get TO those resorts?

b) There are rich Chinese travelers too. I bet some even ski.
 
casebro said:
a) The Aussies did go skiing in Colorado. Hmm, some CO resorts use labor hired from Singapore, my nephew married one... How about Euro resorts too? Because how did it get TO those resorts?
Click to expand...


A Euro ski resort is mentioned in the CNN article in my OP. TragicMonkey is the one who mentions Colorao.

b) There are rich Chinese travelers too. I bet some even ski.
Click to expand...


The (very thorough) CNN article doesn't mention any.
As to the way that the virus travelled from China to Austria, I'll venture a guess:
China-Iran relations (Wikipedia)
Iran-Italy relations (Wikipedia)
Tyrol (map) (Wikipedia)
 
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Okay, rich people travel more, and people who travel more were relatively more instrumental in spreading COVID-19.

So what? What action should be taken because of that?

And is that similar to the action that should be taken because gay people were relatively more instrumental in spreading AIDS?
 
Don't see how this is a capitalist or business issue. Its a people who like to indulge themselves issue.

Eta: we have lots of not-so-well-off travellers, too. Is a once every two or three year family vacation a sin as well?
 
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Myriad said:
Okay, rich people travel more, and people who travel more were relatively more instrumental in spreading COVID-19.

So what? What action should be taken because of that?

And is that similar to the action that should be taken because gay people were relatively more instrumental in spreading AIDS?
Click to expand...


You mean, like, distribution of free condoms and safe-sex lectures???
I don't see how that would protect anybody from this virus or how it would have prevented it from spreading in the first place. And unlike HIV/AIDS, we have had a very good and early understanding of what we are dealing with in the case of Covid-19. In the case of AIDS, it took years before anybody knew what was going on - at one point it was described as gay cancer and one idea was that the environment of saunas, somehow, was a vector! (It would have been an extinction event for the Finns if that had been the case) - so, no, I see no resemblance at all.
 
Thermal said:
Don't see how this is a capitalist or business issue. Its a people who like to indulge themselves issue.
Click to expand...


You didn't even read the quotation from the CNN article, did you? Haven't you heard Trump and his cronies talk about old people 'volunteering' to save big (as well as small) businesses?

Eta: we have lots of not-so-well-off travellers, too. Is a once every two or three year family vacation a sin as well?
Click to expand...


Did anybody mention sin? Why do the affluent areas appear to be the ones that are hit the hardest ... at first ... instead of the areas where the "not-so-well-off" people live?
 
dann said:
You didn't even read the quotation from the CNN article, did you? Haven't you heard Trump and his cronies talk about old people 'volunteering' to save big (as well as small) businesses?
Click to expand...

None of which extrapolated to being a capitalist virus. There was a bartender at the resort who tested positive, yes? Are we blaming the greedy service industry who comes to work to take in those juicy tourist tips?

Covid 19 is highly contagious. Exactly which socioeconomic group it spreads through initially is irrelevant. We live in a global society. It was going to travel. No need to associate it with capitalism.

Is CNN condemning the capitalist Chinese market where it originated?


id anybody mention sin? Why do the affluent areas appear to be the ones that are hit the hardest ... at first ... instead of the areas where the "not-so-well-off" people live?
Click to expand...

Doesn't matter really where it took hold first. This thing is an easy traveller. Not really the move to hang it on capitalism.
 
Thermal said:
None of which extrapolated to being a capitalist virus. There was a bartender at the resort who tested positive, yes? Are we blaming the greedy service industry who comes to work to take in those juicy tourist tips?

Covid 19 is highly contagious. Exactly which socioeconomic group it spreads through initially is irrelevant. We live in a global society. It was going to travel. No need to associate it with capitalism.
Click to expand...

There is every reason to associate the virus with capitalism when capitalism helps it spread.

The CNN quotation had only five lines, and you skipped the last two:
Despite an official warning from the Icelandic government on March 4 that a group of its nationals had contracted coronavirus in Ischgl, Austrian authorities allowed ski tourism -- and the partying that goes with it -- to continue for another nine days before fully quarantining the resort on March 13. Bars in Ischgl were closed on March 10.
Even after a bartender tested positive for the virus, the medical authority of Tyrol -- where ski tourism is one of the biggest economic drivers -- reiterated in a press release on March 8 that there was "no reason to worry."
Click to expand...

Is CNN condemning the capitalist Chinese market where it originated?
Click to expand...


Why don't you read it and find out?

Doesn't matter really where it took hold first.
Click to expand...


You could have fooled me! Isn't that what you just wanted the CNN article to tell you?

This thing is an easy traveller. Not really the move to hang it on capitalism.
Click to expand...


At this point, after it has found its way into every country on Earth, you no longer need to travel to get it. Wanting to suspend the restrictions that prevent it from spreading or slows it down is a capitalist calculation through and through. And so were the Chinese attempts to conceal what was happening in the beginning of the pandemic.

Truth is not what you want it to be; it is what it is, and you must bend to its power or live a lie -Miyamoto Musashi
Click to expand...
 
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dann said:
You mean, like, distribution of free condoms and safe-sex lectures???
Click to expand...


Maybe, but I was asking you what measures you think should be taken. I've seen plenty of lectures (video segments, signs, instruction sheets) for COVID-19 safety; they're not "safe-sex" lectures only because the predominant vectors of spread are different. I've personally handed out free bottles of hand sanitizer (not condoms ditto predominant vectors) because I happened to have the materials on hand to make it. I'm sure it would be being widely handed out for free if a sufficient supply were available. None of those seem to have anything to do with who spread the disease in the past, though. For what it's worth, there are plenty of travel restrictions and limitations now already in effect.

I don't see how that would protect anybody from this virus or how it would have prevented it from spreading in the first place. And unlike HIV/AIDS, we have had a very good and early understanding of what we are dealing with in the case of Covid-19. In the case of AIDS, it took years before anybody knew what was going on - at one point it was described as gay cancer and one idea was that the environment of saunas, somehow, was a vector! (It would have been an extinction event for the Finns if that had been the case) - so, no, I see no resemblance at all.
Click to expand...


I do see a resemblance between your attempting to direct blame at the people who spread COVID-19, and the blame very frequently directed at gay men (often by media personalities and evangelicals) for spreading AIDS in the 80s and early 90s. It's a pretty clear resemblance, even though some of the details of the circumstances are different. There's also a clear resemblance to Trump's ongoing attempts to direct blame for COVID-19 at the Chinese people and government. ETA: Oh, I see you're doing that too. Good show.
 
dann said:
There is every reason to associate the virus with capitalism when capitalism helps it spread.

The CNN quotation had only five lines, and you skipped the last two:





Why don't you read it and find out?




You could have fooled me! Isn't that what you just wanted the CNN article to tell you?




At this point, after it has found its way into every country on Earth, you no longer need to travel to get it. Wanting to suspend the restrictions that prevent it from spreading or slows it down is a capitalist calculation through and through. And so were the Chinese attempts to conceal what was happening in the beginning of the pandemic.
Click to expand...

Dude, seriously. The CNN article, which you seem to think was handed down from Mr Siania on stone tablets, is a case study in confirmation bias. It was well on the hoof to have gotten from China to the Alps already. The resort managers could well be taken to task for hubris, and underestimation, and even greed. But it was already far too late. None of this makes it a capitalist virus. Sure, wealthy travellers sped it up in certain sectors. Who cares? It was well on its way by the very limited time and place the Most Holy CNN article, Peace and Love be unto it's Name, chose to randomly focus on and try to blame on a specific class.

And I'm working poor. COVID came to my beach town from a couple tourists (who were the first to test positive in local hospitals). Its easy to blame patient zero. Its just not what the smart people do in the face of a pandemic virus.

Eta: my Sig. Exactly. You want the truth to be 'bad old capitalist virus'. The Truth is, it's a highly contagious SARS bug. Its not the fault of a economic group, or economic principle. Go blame the Chinese if you want to point a finger. I don't blame people for viruses anymore.
 
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TragicMonkey said:
I did notice that in the memos from my workplace they identified as risk factors "those who have travelled recently to China, or to Colorado ski resorts". That list has since expanded, but "ski resorts" showed up pretty early on.
Click to expand...


One of our first publicly known cases was a man who got infected in Singapore but then went on a sking holiday and probably infected more. Coronavirus: UK businessman linked to virus cases speaks out https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-51459210
 
Myriad said:
Maybe, but I was asking you what measures you think should be taken. I've seen plenty of lectures (video segments, signs, instruction sheets) for COVID-19 safety; they're not "safe-sex" lectures only because the predominant vectors of spread are different. I've personally handed out free bottles of hand sanitizer (not condoms ditto predominant vectors) because I happened to have the materials on hand to make it. I'm sure it would be being widely handed out for free if a sufficient supply were available. None of those seem to have anything to do with who spread the disease in the past, though. For what it's worth, there are plenty of travel restrictions and limitations now already in effect.
Click to expand...


I'm sure it wouldn't be being handed out for free if a sufficient supply were available. That's not how capitalism works:
Air Force vet hoarded 17,700 bottles of hand sanitizer, then had no place to sell them — Sad! (AirForceTimes, March 17, 2020)
Yes, now there are travel restrictions in place. They should have been in place much sooner, and they could have been in place much sooner if it weren't for the short sighted interests of the tourism trade. Read the whole CNN article.

I do see a resemblance between your attempting to direct blame at the people who spread COVID-19, and the blame very frequently directed at gay men (often by media personalities and evangelicals) for spreading AIDS in the 80s and early 90s. It's a pretty clear resemblance, even though some of the details of the circumstances are different. There's also a clear resemblance to Trump's ongoing attempts to direct blame for COVID-19 at the Chinese people and government. ETA: Oh, I see you're doing that too. Good show.
Click to expand...


So gay men who had no idea what was happening somehow resemble business men and local authorities who have actually been told what is going on but who don't take the proper precautions, on the contrary, because in Tyrol, like in Florida at Spring Break, but not quite the same kind, "ski tourism [unlike beach, beer and booze tourism] is one of the biggest economic drivers."
Yes, that's a pretty clear resemblance. Only minor details differ, right?!
 
Thermal said:
Dude, seriously. The CNN article, which you seem to think was handed down from Mr Siania on stone tablets, is a case study in confirmation bias. It was well on the hoof to have gotten from China to the Alps already. The resort managers could well be taken to task for hubris, and underestimation, and even greed. But it was already far too late. None of this makes it a capitalist virus. Sure, wealthy travellers sped it up in certain sectors. Who cares? It was well on its way by the very limited time and place the Most Holy CNN article, Peace and Love be unto it's Name, chose to randomly focus on and try to blame on a specific class.

And I'm working poor. COVID came to my beach town from a couple tourists (who were the first to test positive in local hospitals). Its easy to blame patient zero. Its just not what the smart people do in the face of a pandemic virus.

Eta: my Sig. Exactly. You want the truth to be 'bad old capitalist virus'. The Truth is, it's a highly contagious SARS bug. Its not the fault of a economic group, or economic principle. Go blame the Chinese if you want to point a finger. I don't blame people for viruses anymore.
Click to expand...


I don't blame people for viruses. Well, at least in this case I don't. I show you how this particular virus has been spread due to business calculations; profits before health and lives.
 
dann said:
I don't blame people for viruses. Well, at least in this case I don't. I show you how this particular virus has been spread due to business calculations; profits before health and lives.
Click to expand...

Without shutting down borders and all air travel immediately upon it's discovery, do you think there was any practical way of stopping a highly contagious virus for which there was no ready test and many of the infected persons were asymptomatic?

If not, then the specific way it travelled through a specific subculture of wealthy skiers is immaterial. Certainly, capitalism was not the culprit. Hubris and resort managers not getting how serious of a problem this was surely contributed. But an actual Capitalist Virus? No.

Again, if you want to blame how it was spread, talk to the Chinese. By the time it was in ski lodges in Italy, twas too late. Its just an academic exercise to talk about the specifics of transmission by then. It is not Capitalism's fault by any means.
 
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