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#81 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Hong Kong
Posts: 48,643
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We already know that online interactions tend to dehumanize our perception of each other.
It stands to reason that as everyone cuts off whatever real human interaction they normally get, the pathologies of online activity will get much, much worse, not better. I don't think there was ever any hope of a silver lining. |
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#82 |
Philosopher
Join Date: Sep 2008
Posts: 8,394
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#83 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: Shanghai
Posts: 14,149
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Dann was very clear that "the rich" he's talking about doesn't include the people that I mentioned.
If capitalism is to blame for my sister being able to engage in International travel despite a low income, or my friend to be able to return home a couple of times a year to see family, then I can only say I'm a fan of capitalism. |
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"... when people thought the Earth was flat, they were wrong. When people thought the Earth was spherical they were wrong. But if you think that thinking the Earth is spherical is just as wrong as thinking the Earth is flat, then your view is wronger than both of them put together." Isaac Asimov |
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#84 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: Shanghai
Posts: 14,149
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"... when people thought the Earth was flat, they were wrong. When people thought the Earth was spherical they were wrong. But if you think that thinking the Earth is spherical is just as wrong as thinking the Earth is flat, then your view is wronger than both of them put together." Isaac Asimov |
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#85 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: Shanghai
Posts: 14,149
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Yeah, this trying to find people to blame thing is really bothering me.
It's turning into serious xenophobia here in china, where foreigners are looked at with fear. A friend of mine has a gym that is reopening, but they've been told no foreigners are allowed in the building. And here's a quote from him on our WeChat group yesterday:
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"... when people thought the Earth was flat, they were wrong. When people thought the Earth was spherical they were wrong. But if you think that thinking the Earth is spherical is just as wrong as thinking the Earth is flat, then your view is wronger than both of them put together." Isaac Asimov |
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#86 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: Shanghai
Posts: 14,149
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"... when people thought the Earth was flat, they were wrong. When people thought the Earth was spherical they were wrong. But if you think that thinking the Earth is spherical is just as wrong as thinking the Earth is flat, then your view is wronger than both of them put together." Isaac Asimov |
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#87 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Feb 2004
Posts: 13,302
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__________________
/dann "Stupidity renders itself invisible by assuming very large proportions. Completely unreasonable claims are irrefutable. Ni-en-leh pointed out that a philosopher might get into trouble by claiming that two times two makes five, but he does not risk much by claiming that two times two makes shoe polish." B. Brecht "The abolition of religion as the illusory happiness of the people is required for their real happiness. The demand to give up the illusion about its condition is the demand to give up a condition which needs illusions." K. Marx |
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#88 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Feb 2004
Posts: 13,302
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__________________
/dann "Stupidity renders itself invisible by assuming very large proportions. Completely unreasonable claims are irrefutable. Ni-en-leh pointed out that a philosopher might get into trouble by claiming that two times two makes five, but he does not risk much by claiming that two times two makes shoe polish." B. Brecht "The abolition of religion as the illusory happiness of the people is required for their real happiness. The demand to give up the illusion about its condition is the demand to give up a condition which needs illusions." K. Marx |
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#89 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Feb 2004
Posts: 13,302
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Do you have any examples of xenophobia in China as serious as this? Horrible Covid-19 racist attack in London |
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/dann "Stupidity renders itself invisible by assuming very large proportions. Completely unreasonable claims are irrefutable. Ni-en-leh pointed out that a philosopher might get into trouble by claiming that two times two makes five, but he does not risk much by claiming that two times two makes shoe polish." B. Brecht "The abolition of religion as the illusory happiness of the people is required for their real happiness. The demand to give up the illusion about its condition is the demand to give up a condition which needs illusions." K. Marx |
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#90 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Feb 2004
Posts: 13,302
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__________________
/dann "Stupidity renders itself invisible by assuming very large proportions. Completely unreasonable claims are irrefutable. Ni-en-leh pointed out that a philosopher might get into trouble by claiming that two times two makes five, but he does not risk much by claiming that two times two makes shoe polish." B. Brecht "The abolition of religion as the illusory happiness of the people is required for their real happiness. The demand to give up the illusion about its condition is the demand to give up a condition which needs illusions." K. Marx |
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#91 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Feb 2004
Posts: 13,302
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/dann "Stupidity renders itself invisible by assuming very large proportions. Completely unreasonable claims are irrefutable. Ni-en-leh pointed out that a philosopher might get into trouble by claiming that two times two makes five, but he does not risk much by claiming that two times two makes shoe polish." B. Brecht "The abolition of religion as the illusory happiness of the people is required for their real happiness. The demand to give up the illusion about its condition is the demand to give up a condition which needs illusions." K. Marx |
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#92 |
Philosopher
Join Date: Sep 2008
Posts: 8,394
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Strange post but if you need to be reminded of your spamming lists of how great white countries are, I'll remind you.
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#93 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Feb 2004
Posts: 13,302
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Ain't it dreadful? The pathological inhumanity of online interactions when we know that people are so much nicer in real life! I think you'll appreciate this list of things you can do for your fellow man now that you are already online:
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The wealthy flee to Nantucket, a ‘medical desert,’ during coronavirus lockdown (NYPost, March 25, 2020) |
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/dann "Stupidity renders itself invisible by assuming very large proportions. Completely unreasonable claims are irrefutable. Ni-en-leh pointed out that a philosopher might get into trouble by claiming that two times two makes five, but he does not risk much by claiming that two times two makes shoe polish." B. Brecht "The abolition of religion as the illusory happiness of the people is required for their real happiness. The demand to give up the illusion about its condition is the demand to give up a condition which needs illusions." K. Marx |
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#94 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: Shanghai
Posts: 14,149
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"... when people thought the Earth was flat, they were wrong. When people thought the Earth was spherical they were wrong. But if you think that thinking the Earth is spherical is just as wrong as thinking the Earth is flat, then your view is wronger than both of them put together." Isaac Asimov |
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#95 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: Shanghai
Posts: 14,149
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Sure, I'm a fan of capitalism to some extent. I think a lot of people are a lot better off because of it. I also think that it's caused some suffering and some regulation and some redistribution of wealth are great things that help to mitigate some of those effects. There are also some serious issues with negative externalities of business that, again, we should be trying to avoid through regulation. But wealth creation is, in general a good thing, and capitalism is responsible for a lot of wealth creation.
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"... when people thought the Earth was flat, they were wrong. When people thought the Earth was spherical they were wrong. But if you think that thinking the Earth is spherical is just as wrong as thinking the Earth is flat, then your view is wronger than both of them put together." Isaac Asimov |
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#96 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: Shanghai
Posts: 14,149
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__________________
"... when people thought the Earth was flat, they were wrong. When people thought the Earth was spherical they were wrong. But if you think that thinking the Earth is spherical is just as wrong as thinking the Earth is flat, then your view is wronger than both of them put together." Isaac Asimov |
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#97 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: Shanghai
Posts: 14,149
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__________________
"... when people thought the Earth was flat, they were wrong. When people thought the Earth was spherical they were wrong. But if you think that thinking the Earth is spherical is just as wrong as thinking the Earth is flat, then your view is wronger than both of them put together." Isaac Asimov |
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#98 |
Pi
Join Date: Nov 2005
Posts: 20,411
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There shuld be much, much less travel, particularly air travel.
We have to start acting like the planet has finite resources. Because the planet has finite resources. Flying is a luxury with a massive environmental coss. And it's not even close to necessary 99% of the time. But there's a perception that somehow it's a right to travel 3000 miles across the world for a piss-up or to climb a mountain or to swim with dolphins that will utterly override any thoughts of the damage flying does to the environment. |
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Up the River! Anyone that wraps themselves in the Union Flag and also lives in tax exile is a [redacted] |
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#99 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Feb 2004
Posts: 13,302
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/dann "Stupidity renders itself invisible by assuming very large proportions. Completely unreasonable claims are irrefutable. Ni-en-leh pointed out that a philosopher might get into trouble by claiming that two times two makes five, but he does not risk much by claiming that two times two makes shoe polish." B. Brecht "The abolition of religion as the illusory happiness of the people is required for their real happiness. The demand to give up the illusion about its condition is the demand to give up a condition which needs illusions." K. Marx |
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#100 | |||
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Feb 2004
Posts: 13,302
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In some other system where people didn't benefit from letting other people come to harm, i.e. business? Like in Ischgl, Austria or Miami, Florida (or Amity Island, Jaws). ETA: Using an example from fiction it just occurred to me that the Norwegian playwright Henrik Ibsen wrote a play with a similar theme, [url=https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/An_Enemy_of_the_People]An Enemy of the People[/i] (Wikipedia):
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Somebody should adapt this play for TV immediately! Get it while it's still hot! Henrik Ibsen: An Enemy of the People (Gutenberg.org)
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/dann "Stupidity renders itself invisible by assuming very large proportions. Completely unreasonable claims are irrefutable. Ni-en-leh pointed out that a philosopher might get into trouble by claiming that two times two makes five, but he does not risk much by claiming that two times two makes shoe polish." B. Brecht "The abolition of religion as the illusory happiness of the people is required for their real happiness. The demand to give up the illusion about its condition is the demand to give up a condition which needs illusions." K. Marx |
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#102 |
Pi
Join Date: Nov 2005
Posts: 20,411
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I'm a big fan of capitalism as a tool. As a philosphy for life, not so much. As to the ubiquitous air travel, I think it's a bad idea, and it's a bad thing that the people you mention can fly wherever they like. Bad for the planet and the billions of people not able to do that, I mean. Bloody marvelous for those that can take advantage of it, of course. |
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Up the River! Anyone that wraps themselves in the Union Flag and also lives in tax exile is a [redacted] |
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#103 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: Shanghai
Posts: 14,149
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Sure. You said that the virus is being spread by rich people, particularly because they are the ones who engage in international travel, and as such they are hurting the rest of us. While you have refused to explain what the solution you have for this, if international travel is the problem, and being rich is the thing that leads to it, then the implied solution seems to be to stop being from being rich (thus preventing international travel while we're at it).
If you don't think you've been implying that, I'd be interested in an explanation of what you do think the solution is (Myriad asked for such in a post which I later quoted, but both times you failed to answer his questions). |
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"... when people thought the Earth was flat, they were wrong. When people thought the Earth was spherical they were wrong. But if you think that thinking the Earth is spherical is just as wrong as thinking the Earth is flat, then your view is wronger than both of them put together." Isaac Asimov |
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#104 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: Shanghai
Posts: 14,149
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Absolutely.
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I do think that there are externalities that aren't (but should be) captured by the price. There should be some sort of a carbon tax on air travel/airlines, and if that was implemented (and those externalities thus accounted for) some international travel would stop. But while those externalities exist I don't think they're so high as to be greater than the good that comes for it. |
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"... when people thought the Earth was flat, they were wrong. When people thought the Earth was spherical they were wrong. But if you think that thinking the Earth is spherical is just as wrong as thinking the Earth is flat, then your view is wronger than both of them put together." Isaac Asimov |
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#105 |
Pi
Join Date: Nov 2005
Posts: 20,411
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I disagree, almost completely, I think. I think the majority of air travel, the environmental costs of which are utterly massive (taking into account polution, oil extraction, mineral extraction and processing detritus from making god alone knows how many planes (many of which are now in car parks)) is leisure based. Now, I'm not down on leisure, but a whole industry ******* up the planet on multiple levels so people can go on a stag do in Prague or to spring break down in Florida (because that, or age based equivalent are what at least 90% of air travel is for) just isn't cost effective That is, cost effective in environmental, not fiscal terms. In my view it's long past time the former started outweighing the latter, but we're a long, long way and a whole lot of damage to the earth and its air,from that.
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Up the River! Anyone that wraps themselves in the Union Flag and also lives in tax exile is a [redacted] |
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#106 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: Shanghai
Posts: 14,149
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Yeah, and please note I was only trying to make clear exactly where we disagree. I certainly haven't said anything the should make you change your mind. I'll have to do some more thinking about it before I'd be prepared to attempt to make an argument for my point of view on this topic. So I do respect what you're saying.
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"... when people thought the Earth was flat, they were wrong. When people thought the Earth was spherical they were wrong. But if you think that thinking the Earth is spherical is just as wrong as thinking the Earth is flat, then your view is wronger than both of them put together." Isaac Asimov |
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#108 |
Banned
Join Date: Mar 2008
Posts: 20,145
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Limiting freedom of movement over environmental concerns, who would have saw that coming?
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#109 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Hong Kong
Posts: 48,643
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I take the Soviet Union as a model. Yes, the people at the top, deciding the "important work" were all exploiting the system to live better than the vast majority of their fellow citizens. But overall, the degree of consumer consumption* was drastically reduced compared to the capitalist west.
If the World Government did limit air travel to "important work", there'd still probably be a couple hundred thousand cronies, black marketeers, regulatory captors, and the like, effectively enjoying luxury air travel they didn't need and hadn't earned. But that would still be a lot less than the billions of air travelers we had in 2018. That seems like a huge win. Even if a lot of hangers-on and officer's wives end up exploiting the policy, it still seems like a small price to pay, for the result. In any case, solve global warming first, then worry about any lingering social injustices in the solution. --- *For lack of a better term. |
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#110 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Feb 2004
Posts: 13,302
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Yes, it's even in the title of this thread.
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No, I think that was one of the very early strawmen: 'Rich people travel more that poor people.' Some people use this strategy quite frequently. They come up with a strawman that is slightly related to the actual argument, and others assume that it must be right and respond to the strawman instead of to the actual argument. (And as you can see, theprestige is still doing it.) Go back to the OP, which was mainly based on my observations of the way that coronavirus was spread to Denmark. My observations coincided with the appearance of the CNN article about conditions in Ischgl, Austria.
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Your "if ... then" is based on the strawman. I don't think I've "refused to explain" any solution. I actually don't think I've mentioned any solution at all. And international travel as such is not the problem so the rest of your assumption is also wrong.
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Yes, Myriad was the first poster to come up with the strawman. You should have read my OP instead of basing your impression of what I wrote on his post. The solution to the behaviour exhibited by the "medical authority" in Ischgl, Austria, as well as whoever might be responsible in Miami, Florida, (and in Wuhan, China, as well) would obviously be to put a stop to the calculations that make it happen. However, it has been happening in all capitalist countries for as long as capitalism has existed. Ibsen’s play An Enemy of the People, which I mentioned in post 100, is from 1882. |
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/dann "Stupidity renders itself invisible by assuming very large proportions. Completely unreasonable claims are irrefutable. Ni-en-leh pointed out that a philosopher might get into trouble by claiming that two times two makes five, but he does not risk much by claiming that two times two makes shoe polish." B. Brecht "The abolition of religion as the illusory happiness of the people is required for their real happiness. The demand to give up the illusion about its condition is the demand to give up a condition which needs illusions." K. Marx |
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#111 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: Shanghai
Posts: 14,149
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Hey Dann,
I did read your OP, but I've gone back and re-read it. You're right that you didn't explicitly talk about international travel. But it seemed to me that's what you were implicitly talking about, given that those rich people clearly brought it to those ski resorts and from those ski resorts to their home countries through international travel. Based on your last reply, maybe I misread you. Looking back over the thread it seems you're that it was the actions of the ski resort operators in both staying open and, if they weren't going to close not at least having policies to enforce some sort of social distancing. You may also be talking about those staying at the resorts going to the resorts at all, as well as going to parties once they were there. So, that's my reading now. If I'm still missing the point please let me know. |
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"... when people thought the Earth was flat, they were wrong. When people thought the Earth was spherical they were wrong. But if you think that thinking the Earth is spherical is just as wrong as thinking the Earth is flat, then your view is wronger than both of them put together." Isaac Asimov |
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#112 |
Philosopher
Join Date: Nov 2010
Posts: 9,000
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So Capitalism is responsible for the spread of coronavirus....presumably because businesses refused to close down out of fear of the loss of profit, thus creating a vector for spread.
So what is the alternative system that would have stopped the spread in its tracks? It seems to me there is no such alternative system. The real problem isn’t Capitalism or businesses; the real problem is humans. I can’t imagine any scenario in the modern connected world in which the spread would have been stopped in its tracks. People want freedom to do things; people want to travel. You would have to imagine a world in which a government could exercise absolute control over all businesses and people. And you have to imagine humans that always make the right decisions as quickly as possible. Fantasy Utopias, basically. |
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#113 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Feb 2004
Posts: 13,302
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__________________
/dann "Stupidity renders itself invisible by assuming very large proportions. Completely unreasonable claims are irrefutable. Ni-en-leh pointed out that a philosopher might get into trouble by claiming that two times two makes five, but he does not risk much by claiming that two times two makes shoe polish." B. Brecht "The abolition of religion as the illusory happiness of the people is required for their real happiness. The demand to give up the illusion about its condition is the demand to give up a condition which needs illusions." K. Marx |
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#114 |
Philosopher
Join Date: Nov 2010
Posts: 9,000
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Ok, I will agree with you for the sake of argument. Now what? What is the system that would have saved us? And you are misunderstanding me. My point is that there is no alternative system that would have resulted in anything different because of human nature. Any alternative system would require humans to be be perfectly logical creatures who always acted perfectly in any given situation. Pandemic? We immediately follow all recommendations and none of us leave our (presumably well-stocked for disaster) homes for a month Because of human nature, there is no scenario or alternative system in which this thing doesn’t spread all over the world. |
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#115 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Feb 2004
Posts: 13,302
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Why pretend that you would like to know the answer to your question when you follow it up with your own claim that no such system can possibly exists?
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No, on the contrary. Systems are imperfect if they don't take into consideration that humans (unlike Donald Trump, of course) aren't perfect. That is the point of such down-to-earth stuff like ABS brakes, motorcycle helmets and airbags. The alleged imperfection of human nature is the argument we always get to hear from proponents of the idea that capitalism is perfect every time we confront them with the obvious fact that it isn't.
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That would have been close to perfect, obviously, and yet it took the perfect president months of ignoring recommendations before he grudgingly acknowledged that, well, maybe it wouldn't go away after all however much you focussed on ignoring it. That is Trump nature, not human nature, but I can see why people who consider him to be a supreme being might confuse the two things.
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In the actual, real world, even in some capitalist nations, there are several examples of imperfect human beings with the ability to tackle this situation much, much better than the businessman president currently residing in the White House. Who do you think came up with the recommendations mentioned by you in a sentence that was supposed to be an example of blue-eyed Utopianism? "We immediately follow all recommendations"? Aliens? Unicorns? Angels? No, of course not!!! ******* human beings came up with those recommendations! You see, that's the thing about human beings: We tend to be "perfectly logical creatures" when we look at the world as it is and try to make sense of it as unbiased as we possibly can. (Even science, imperfect as it is, is aware that biasses can be counterbalanced by checks and guidelines installed for this very purpose: to make sure that results are as perfect as they can possibly be. I've never heard scientists resort to the stupid excuse that biasses can't be overcome because, 'Well, you know, human nature is imperfect, so biassed results are just something that we have to live with! Anything else would be Utopian! Now, are you going to go on that plane or not?!') |
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/dann "Stupidity renders itself invisible by assuming very large proportions. Completely unreasonable claims are irrefutable. Ni-en-leh pointed out that a philosopher might get into trouble by claiming that two times two makes five, but he does not risk much by claiming that two times two makes shoe polish." B. Brecht "The abolition of religion as the illusory happiness of the people is required for their real happiness. The demand to give up the illusion about its condition is the demand to give up a condition which needs illusions." K. Marx |
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#116 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Feb 2004
Posts: 13,302
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2,500 tourists are joining a mass lawsuit after after hundreds of Europe's early coronavirus cases were traced to a single ski resort in Austria (Business Insider, April 1, 2020)
It's probably not an April's Fool joke because I saw it on this Danish website, too: Corona-hotspot i Alperne: 2.500 skiturister vil sagsøge Ischgl (DR.dk, March 30, 2020) |
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/dann "Stupidity renders itself invisible by assuming very large proportions. Completely unreasonable claims are irrefutable. Ni-en-leh pointed out that a philosopher might get into trouble by claiming that two times two makes five, but he does not risk much by claiming that two times two makes shoe polish." B. Brecht "The abolition of religion as the illusory happiness of the people is required for their real happiness. The demand to give up the illusion about its condition is the demand to give up a condition which needs illusions." K. Marx |
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#117 |
Show me the monkey!
Join Date: Jul 2005
Posts: 25,729
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Bigfoot believers and Bigfoot skeptics are both plumb crazy. Each spends more than one minute per year thinking about Bigfoot. |
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#118 |
Philosopher
Join Date: Nov 2010
Posts: 9,000
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Capitalism and Its Beneficiaries, Rich People, Are the Spreaders of Coronavirus
Because that’s the way I see it and I’d like your take on it, seeing as how you are the one claiming Capitalism is to blame.
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Again, human beings are imperfect. I don’t care what system you implement, it will never result in a perfect response. You seem to disagree, but you have yet to offer a direct answer to: What system would have protected people better than Capitalism? If you want to argue that Donald Trump didn’t handle this well? I agree. But Donald Trump isn’t Capitalism. He is a Capitalist, but he’s also an idiot. But Donald Trump wasn’t mentioned in your OP. I didn’t mention Trump. What does he have to do with ski resorts in Austria or Capitalism as a whole system?
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There is no economic system that would have shut down this virus. The countries that responded best had better leaders and more compliant citizens, period. |
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#119 |
No Punting
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: Not In Follansbee
Posts: 4,058
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A person who has more money than is needed to live a life comfortable by any remotely reasonable standard but who seeks more wealth has a harmful hording disorder.
Which is more or less evil if you see things in those terms, I guess. Either way, it is conduct that should be strongly disfavored. |
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#120 |
Pi
Join Date: Nov 2005
Posts: 20,411
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True.
Although better results would probably be yeilded if powerful media figures and even elected government officials, hadn't spent the last 40 years denigrating the scientific method obfuscating facts, promoting woo, disenfanchising academia and generally promoting the idea that it's laudable to be a selfish, I'm alright, Jack, dickhead and, of course, that the government is useless. If that hadn't happened, people would be more like to follow the wise, scientifically founded, advice rather than believing that they know better because FREEEEEEEEDDDDDDDDDDOOOOOMMMMMMM |
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Up the River! Anyone that wraps themselves in the Union Flag and also lives in tax exile is a [redacted] |
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