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Old 7th April 2020, 08:12 AM   #161
dann
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Originally Posted by Roboramma View Post
I think dann's basic claim is that capitalist systems have encouraged certain behaviors that helped spread (or at least prevented the mitigation of) the pandemic: for instance ski resorts that should have closed or at least implemented measures to keep people apart instead went on with business as usual when they should have known better because doing so helped them make more money*.

It's not really a question of should have known better. They did know better, even the local health authorities. Much the same way that Trump was informed very early on about what was happening. It's not that he should have known better. It's that he denied reality, lied about it, and continued to do so until it bit him in the ass. And it's no secret what his considerations were.

Quote:
I'm actually interested in what he thinks should be done about this. Should we change our economic system and remove the idea of a profit motive? Or could some simple regulations help? Maybe the economic system could remain but society's view toward it needs to change, so that as individuals we would be more motivated to act according to the public good even if it hurt our pocket books? And maybe the way to motivate that change would be to heap scorn on the bad actors in cases like this? Perhaps that's what dann is trying to do.

The "profit motive" is not an idea. Profit exists and it's why people do business. All it took to remove some of the "simple regulations" put in place to avoid the present situation was a president. And it's not like a long line of presidents since at least Reagan haven't been doing the same thing. And I don't see why you suddenly bring us "as individuals" into this. We as individuals don't make these decisions and our pocket books are hurt all the time by the business considerations of businessmen and politicians.

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I have no idea and am just guessing because either he hasn't said or as usual I haven't been able to understand what he's saying.

Too bad.

Quote:
*My view is that everyone seems to have been in denial of the severity of the pandemic and the actions that were required. From governments to businesses to individuals. It's not clear to me that anything more than that was going on throughout February. I got a big boost in my accuracy score on The Good Judgement Project after making much more pessimistic forecasts about the spread of the virus than almost everyone else, and that's among people going to the effort to actually make forecasts.

No, not everyone. Remember: Trump and the rest of the leaders of the world were warned about this. They couldn't have been warned if everyone had been in denial.
But everyone who believed in Trump, sure. Like I pointed out from the very beginning, even businessmen don't even do what's good for business - long term. They have their eyes fixed on the short-term goal of profits and let the virus run wild because taking precautions against it, preparing for it and even trying to slow it down would be bad for business. Until it is actually here and ruins business completely.
But I don't even care about business. And that business doesn't care about anything beyond short-term profit was made as clear as it could possibly be by its (and its politicians') behaviour in this pandemic. If business was the only thing to have been hurt ... I think I could have lived with that version of poetic justice.


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"Stupidity renders itself invisible by assuming very large proportions. Completely unreasonable claims are irrefutable. Ni-en-leh pointed out that a philosopher might get into trouble by claiming that two times two makes five, but he does not risk much by claiming that two times two makes shoe polish." B. Brecht
"The abolition of religion as the illusory happiness of the people is required for their real happiness. The demand to give up the illusion about its condition is the demand to give up a condition which needs illusions." K. Marx

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Old 7th April 2020, 08:17 AM   #162
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Originally Posted by TragicMonkey View Post
I think income per capita is already a statistic divorced from the direct data points, and marrying it to geography means you're combining two averaged figures. That's two degrees of abstraction away from the actual things you're trying to analyze.

Yes, of course it is. And I'm aware that there are poor people in Gentofte, Rudersdal and Frederiksberg, too. But there aren't as many of them, and they don't go to Ischgl to ski!

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Because if you're insisting on making moral judgments on people's behavior you should at least have information on those people and their behavior? Rather than just guessing?

Yes, if you are, but I'm not. And I know more than enough about "those people and their behavior" already. The morals of this case don't interest me much.
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"Stupidity renders itself invisible by assuming very large proportions. Completely unreasonable claims are irrefutable. Ni-en-leh pointed out that a philosopher might get into trouble by claiming that two times two makes five, but he does not risk much by claiming that two times two makes shoe polish." B. Brecht
"The abolition of religion as the illusory happiness of the people is required for their real happiness. The demand to give up the illusion about its condition is the demand to give up a condition which needs illusions." K. Marx
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Old 7th April 2020, 08:44 AM   #163
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I just don't think the data presented is sufficiently solid to base the premise "capitalism and its beneficiaries, rich people, are the spreaders of coronavirus". I think that's a broad generalization not supported by sufficent data, but rather hypothesized through selectively viewing some insufficient data divorced from context. It's a product of perspective and assumption (and bias), not proper analysis.

I'm not a fan of the rich myself, but I don't think promulgating sloppy theories and claiming the data backs them up is doing anybody a service.
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Old 7th April 2020, 08:59 AM   #164
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I've been piling up evidence of how rich people and business considerations spread the virus from Tyrol to Northern Europe. I have shown that, accordingly, the areas hit hardest in Copenhagen at the time when the epidemic started in this country were the affluent parts of the city and its suburbs. I have posted links to articles showing that affluent neighborhoods in Australia were hardest hit by corona infections.
Of course, I don't have proof positive that it weren't some maid or gardener running from mansion to mansion, spitting coronavirus all over the residents, but it's not bloody likely.
In order to spread the virus from the suburbs to the countryside where the spreaders have their second homes, they would also have had to bring their infected maids and gardeners if that were the case, but at least in my experience they usually hire local help.
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"Stupidity renders itself invisible by assuming very large proportions. Completely unreasonable claims are irrefutable. Ni-en-leh pointed out that a philosopher might get into trouble by claiming that two times two makes five, but he does not risk much by claiming that two times two makes shoe polish." B. Brecht
"The abolition of religion as the illusory happiness of the people is required for their real happiness. The demand to give up the illusion about its condition is the demand to give up a condition which needs illusions." K. Marx
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Old 7th April 2020, 08:55 PM   #165
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Originally Posted by TragicMonkey View Post
I just don't think the data presented is sufficiently solid to base the premise "capitalism and its beneficiaries, rich people, are the spreaders of coronavirus". I think that's a broad generalization not supported by sufficent data, but rather hypothesized through selectively viewing some insufficient data divorced from context. It's a product of perspective and assumption (and bias), not proper analysis.

I'm not a fan of the rich myself, but I don't think promulgating sloppy theories and claiming the data backs them up is doing anybody a service.
Well said.
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Old 8th April 2020, 04:16 AM   #166
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Coronavirus hits African-American communities

At this point of the pandemic, the Covid-19 is killing a disproportionate number of African-Americans (CNN, April 7, 2020).
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Illinois: % of Population: 15; % of Deaths: 42.

Louisiana: % of Population: 33; % of Deaths: 70.

Michigan: % of Population: 14; % of Deaths: 41.
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"Stupidity renders itself invisible by assuming very large proportions. Completely unreasonable claims are irrefutable. Ni-en-leh pointed out that a philosopher might get into trouble by claiming that two times two makes five, but he does not risk much by claiming that two times two makes shoe polish." B. Brecht
"The abolition of religion as the illusory happiness of the people is required for their real happiness. The demand to give up the illusion about its condition is the demand to give up a condition which needs illusions." K. Marx
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Old 8th April 2020, 09:41 AM   #167
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Originally Posted by dann View Post
At this point of the pandemic, the Covid-19 is killing a disproportionate number of African-Americans (CNN, April 7, 2020).
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Illinois: % of Population: 15; % of Deaths: 42.

Louisiana: % of Population: 33; % of Deaths: 70.

Michigan: % of Population: 14; % of Deaths: 41.
Black people in America: Disproportionate beneficiaries of capitalism.
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Old 8th April 2020, 11:23 AM   #168
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No, you got that totally wrong; Disproportionate victims of U.S. capitalism - during (as well as before and after) the coronavirus epidemic.
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"Stupidity renders itself invisible by assuming very large proportions. Completely unreasonable claims are irrefutable. Ni-en-leh pointed out that a philosopher might get into trouble by claiming that two times two makes five, but he does not risk much by claiming that two times two makes shoe polish." B. Brecht
"The abolition of religion as the illusory happiness of the people is required for their real happiness. The demand to give up the illusion about its condition is the demand to give up a condition which needs illusions." K. Marx
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Old 8th April 2020, 11:25 AM   #169
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Originally Posted by dann View Post
No, you got that totally wrong; Disproportionate victims of U.S. capitalism - during (as well as before and after) the coronavirus epidemic.
So... Beneficiaries of capitalism are spreading coronavirus in black communities?

Let me guess: It's because African Americans run all the ski resorts, right?
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Old 9th April 2020, 02:10 AM   #170
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I appreciate the effort of your attempt to make a joke, but when capitalism and rich people have imported the virus (and they obviously have), the virus will run wild on its own, infecting mainly poor people in the city centres who can't escape to the Caribbean or to Long Island and who can't even go outside and enjoy the flowers of Spring in their gardens.
They may have started by infecting their cooks, their drivers, their maids, their nannies or their nurses. Nobody wants to know since they are all imperfect human beings anyway, to paraphrase xjx388:

The Daily Social Distancing Show with Trevor Noah:
Why Coronavirus Is Hitting The Black Community Hardest (April 8, 2020)
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"Stupidity renders itself invisible by assuming very large proportions. Completely unreasonable claims are irrefutable. Ni-en-leh pointed out that a philosopher might get into trouble by claiming that two times two makes five, but he does not risk much by claiming that two times two makes shoe polish." B. Brecht
"The abolition of religion as the illusory happiness of the people is required for their real happiness. The demand to give up the illusion about its condition is the demand to give up a condition which needs illusions." K. Marx
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Old 14th April 2020, 05:35 AM   #171
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This has some related information

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-51906530
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Old 14th April 2020, 05:39 AM   #172
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Originally Posted by 3point14 View Post
This has some related information

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-51906530
Not at all surprising: almost everything we spend our money on requires energy to produce. Given that, this is basically saying that rich people spend more money.
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Old 14th April 2020, 06:08 AM   #173
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Originally Posted by Roboramma View Post
Not at all surprising: almost everything we spend our money on requires energy to produce. Given that, this is basically saying that rich people spend more money.
The bit that caught my eye was:

This reflects previous research showing that 15% of UK travellers take 70% of all flights.

Ubiquitous air travel only exists for an elite segment no matter how rich one's country.
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Old 14th April 2020, 06:27 AM   #174
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Originally Posted by dann View Post
I'm sorry, but if you go back to the OP, you'll notice something that's more than a coincidence: Affluent areas have more cases. I can guarantee you that the suburb Gentofte north of Copenhagen isn't exactly densely populated. It just happens to be one of the wealthiest areas of Denmark. And I linked to an article making a similar observation in Australia.
It is fairly obvious that you'll find more contagion in a city than in the countryside - until the people with second homes bring it those areas, too.

London doesn’t fit into that model, the richest people in the world may live across the road from some of the poorest people in the UK.
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Old 14th April 2020, 06:44 AM   #175
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Originally Posted by Darat View Post
London doesn’t fit into that model, the richest people in the world may live across the road from some of the poorest people in the UK.
There's bugger all space in London, so that seems reasonable, but could you say where?
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Old 14th April 2020, 10:16 AM   #176
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Originally Posted by Darat View Post
London doesn’t fit into that model, the richest people in the world may live across the road from some of the poorest people in the UK.

And yet the wealthiest and most deprived areas of London have been revealed (My London News, Oct. 30, 2019).
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"Stupidity renders itself invisible by assuming very large proportions. Completely unreasonable claims are irrefutable. Ni-en-leh pointed out that a philosopher might get into trouble by claiming that two times two makes five, but he does not risk much by claiming that two times two makes shoe polish." B. Brecht
"The abolition of religion as the illusory happiness of the people is required for their real happiness. The demand to give up the illusion about its condition is the demand to give up a condition which needs illusions." K. Marx
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Old 14th April 2020, 02:32 PM   #177
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Dr. Fauci on Health Disparities in Coronavirus Cases for African Americans

(NowThis, April 13, 2020)
"Dr. Fauci called out the racial disparities that are making the COVID-19 crisis worse for Black Americans, citing his professional experience with the gay community during the AIDS crisis."

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"Stupidity renders itself invisible by assuming very large proportions. Completely unreasonable claims are irrefutable. Ni-en-leh pointed out that a philosopher might get into trouble by claiming that two times two makes five, but he does not risk much by claiming that two times two makes shoe polish." B. Brecht
"The abolition of religion as the illusory happiness of the people is required for their real happiness. The demand to give up the illusion about its condition is the demand to give up a condition which needs illusions." K. Marx
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Old 14th April 2020, 04:23 PM   #178
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Originally Posted by 3point14 View Post
There's bugger all space in London, so that seems reasonable, but could you say where?

Here is one example https://www.hamhigh.co.uk/news/envir...ther-1-5035511

.....We found in some parts of Camden the most and least deprived people are living separated by only a single street.....
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Old 14th April 2020, 04:26 PM   #179
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Originally Posted by dann View Post

Thanks would have saved me finding a link for threepoint.
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Old 14th April 2020, 05:47 PM   #180
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Originally Posted by 3point14 View Post
The bit that caught my eye was:

This reflects previous research showing that 15% of UK travellers take 70% of all flights.
Again, not at all surprising. I suspect a lot of those trips are made by people traveling for work.

Quote:
Ubiquitous air travel only exists for an elite segment no matter how rich one's country.
How do you go from 70% to 100%? Air travel is much less expensive than it used to be, and even on a low income if it is a priority it's still possible for many people on relatively low incomes to travel. For most it's probably a lower priority than other things that they can do on a limited budget, but that's different from it being out of reach.
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Old 15th April 2020, 01:51 AM   #181
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Originally Posted by Roboramma View Post

How do you go from 70% to 100%?

I didn't. I went from 70% of the population of the sixth? seventh? (somewhere around there) largest economy in the world to conclude that globally, an elite few fly with any regularity. A slightly larger elite 'not very many at all' fly very rarely.

I realise I should have made this clearer, it's a continuation and support of the point I made earlier. Sorry.
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Old 15th April 2020, 09:12 PM   #182
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Originally Posted by 3point14 View Post
I didn't. I went from 70% of the population of the sixth? seventh? (somewhere around there) largest economy in the world to conclude that globally, an elite few fly with any regularity. A slightly larger elite 'not very many at all' fly very rarely.

I realise I should have made this clearer, it's a continuation and support of the point I made earlier. Sorry.
I'm not seeing how you get to that conclusion. Can you explain the argument in more detail?
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Old 16th April 2020, 03:48 AM   #183
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Originally Posted by Roboramma View Post
I'm not seeing how you get to that conclusion. Can you explain the argument in more detail?
If only a very small number of people in one of the richest and most affluent countries in the world actually fly with any regularity then, globally, a very small percentage of people are actually able to fly with regularity.

Here's the post from earlier that covers it:

Originally Posted by 3point14 View Post
No it doesn't. It just means it's not on the scale that you're used to.

A quick google will tell you that 80% of the world's population have never been on a plane.

The 'poor' in this context live in rural china, or india, or other undeveloped countries, living on an income that's measured in cents, or at least single figure dollars, a day.

If you google 'how many people are in 'The West'", you get this:

"Depends on your definition of the West. At its most exclusive, I'd go with around 893 million. This includes the European Union, Northern America and the larger Oceanic states.17 Jan 2017"

Maybe you can add to that the Middle East, Russia (and I'm being generous here), maybe one or two other countries, but that's probably about it for countries where flying is an affordable luxury, coming to around a seventh of the total population.

As in incredibly rough guess, six sevenths of the world's population are too poor to fly.


If my numbers are wrong, then I'm open to correction. If they're right, you're just operating on a local scale.

Globally, rich people travel by air. Poor people do not.
The numbers are rough, but less than a billion people are in 'The West' and only those people fly with any regularity (add in the middle east, as I say). Net result, air travel is a global luxury only enjoyed by a very small percentage of the planet. Considering what most air travel is for (leisure) and the damage it does to the environment (lots) I don't think it's worth it on a cost basis (that is, costs in actual, not financial terms)
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Old 16th April 2020, 05:47 AM   #184
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Originally Posted by 3point14 View Post
If only a very small number of people in one of the richest and most affluent countries in the world actually fly with any regularity then, globally, a very small percentage of people are actually able to fly with regularity.
The highlighted is the part that I don't think you've supported.

Quote:
Here's the post from earlier that covers it:



The numbers are rough, but less than a billion people are in 'The West' and only those people fly with any regularity (add in the middle east, as I say). Net result, air travel is a global luxury only enjoyed by a very small percentage of the planet. Considering what most air travel is for (leisure) and the damage it does to the environment (lots) I don't think it's worth it on a cost basis (that is, costs in actual, not financial terms)
And as I said replying to this you seem to have completely ignored Asia. Did you miss the part where I showed the number of domestic passengers in China?

Here's a quote (from wikipedia, which I quoted in that post):
Quote:
China has the fastest growing passenger air market of any country in the world (by total passenger numbers) and between 2009 and 2014 the number of passengers increased over 47% from 266,293,020 to 390,878,784
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Old 16th April 2020, 09:01 AM   #185
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Originally Posted by Roboramma View Post
The highlighted is the part that I don't think you've supported.

This is starting to get a little circular, because that came from the BBC article that I put in the post you initially replied to in this exchange.

Is it that you missed that or that you don't think it's sufficiently supported?



Quote:
And as I said replying to this you seem to have completely ignored Asia. Did you miss the part where I showed the number of domestic passengers in China?

Here's a quote (from wikipedia, which I quoted in that post):
I'll bet a reasonably large sum of money that most of that increase doesn't represent more people flying but it represents the same people flying more.

My point does not depend on their being fewer flights. And more flights does not mean more flyers, it just means more air miles for those flying.


If you accept that 15% of people take 70% of the flights in the UK (and I understand if you don't, it's not well supported) then I really can't see that China is going to be any more egaliitarian than the UK in that respect.

I'm, open to correction if we can find the actual numbers, but I dont think an increase in the number of air miles in China has any bearing on this argument.
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Old 16th April 2020, 10:18 AM   #186
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3point14 and Roboramma, won't the two of you please stop the derail and take your frequent-flyer discussion somewhere else? It has almost nothing at all to do with the theme of the thread, and it started with Myriad's strawman in post 9.

You can take this quotation with you:
Quote:
Tom Farrier, an air safety specialist who contributes to the crowd-sourced information site, Quora, took a shot at answering the question a couple of years ago. He assumed most people fly round-trip, and that a number of flights are not point-to-point but involve a stop along the way. He then calculated that the majority of air tickets are purchased by people who travel for business. His final guess: Maybe six percent of the world’s population flew in a single year.
If you can be more precise than that, we’d love to hear from you.
How Much of the World’s Population Has Flown in an Airplane? (Air&Space Mag, Jan. 6, 2016)
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"Stupidity renders itself invisible by assuming very large proportions. Completely unreasonable claims are irrefutable. Ni-en-leh pointed out that a philosopher might get into trouble by claiming that two times two makes five, but he does not risk much by claiming that two times two makes shoe polish." B. Brecht
"The abolition of religion as the illusory happiness of the people is required for their real happiness. The demand to give up the illusion about its condition is the demand to give up a condition which needs illusions." K. Marx
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Old 16th April 2020, 10:28 AM   #187
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Full Frontal on TBS (April 15, 2020):
This Week in “Things That Shouldn’t Surprise Us”: COVID-19 Is Extremely Racist
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Andrew Cuomo: "We see that the poorest people pay the highest price."
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"Stupidity renders itself invisible by assuming very large proportions. Completely unreasonable claims are irrefutable. Ni-en-leh pointed out that a philosopher might get into trouble by claiming that two times two makes five, but he does not risk much by claiming that two times two makes shoe polish." B. Brecht
"The abolition of religion as the illusory happiness of the people is required for their real happiness. The demand to give up the illusion about its condition is the demand to give up a condition which needs illusions." K. Marx
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Old 16th April 2020, 10:29 AM   #188
3point14
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Originally Posted by dann View Post
3point14 and Roboramma, won't the two of you please stop the derail and take your frequent-flyer discussion somewhere else? It has almost nothing at all to do with the theme of the thread, and it started with Myriad's strawman in post 9.

You can take this quotation with you:
I disagree that it has nothing to do with the topic at hand.

I'm happy to **** off though.
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Old 16th April 2020, 11:37 AM   #189
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Originally Posted by dann View Post
You can take this quotation with you:
That's a terrible quotation. But it is a good example of lazy, non-investigative journalism. Quora doesn't verify credentials. It doesn't check citations. And according to the quote, neither did Air&Space Magazine. Hell, they're trying the exact same crowdsourcing "hopefully the Internet will tell us if we got it right" thing that Quora does. It's like the opposite of reporting.

Anyway, a self-identified "air safety specialist" tries to answer an air travel economics question, makes a number of arbitrary assumptions to get started, and arrives at a conclusion that may or may not have any bearing on reality. It's not even his supposed area of expertise, and even Air&Space Magazine doesn't know how accurate it is.

Why did they even bother to report it? Why did you even bother to cite it? Why would anybody want to take it away with them to any discussion of this topic?
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Old 16th April 2020, 01:57 PM   #190
dann
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Because it is an attempt to answer a question that nobody else (or at least nobody with access to the relevant data) seems to have attempted to answer or even have an interest in answering: How Much of the World’s Population Has Flown in an Airplane? I personally think, but that is also only a guess, that far fewer than six percent of people in the world have been on an airplane in any given year. I don't even think that six percent have ever been on an airplane.

And I can see why you would be much more interested in this question than in the way that the coronavirus affects poor people in the world because of capitalism.
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"Stupidity renders itself invisible by assuming very large proportions. Completely unreasonable claims are irrefutable. Ni-en-leh pointed out that a philosopher might get into trouble by claiming that two times two makes five, but he does not risk much by claiming that two times two makes shoe polish." B. Brecht
"The abolition of religion as the illusory happiness of the people is required for their real happiness. The demand to give up the illusion about its condition is the demand to give up a condition which needs illusions." K. Marx
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Old 16th April 2020, 02:15 PM   #191
theprestige
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Originally Posted by dann View Post
Because it is an attempt to answer a question that nobody else (or at least nobody with access to the relevant data) seems to have attempted to answer or even have an interest in answering: How Much of the World’s Population Has Flown in an Airplane? I personally think, but that is also only a guess, that far fewer than six percent of people in the world have been on an airplane in any given year. I don't even think that six percent have ever been on an airplane.

And I can see why you would be much more interested in this question than in the way that the coronavirus affects poor people in the world because of capitalism.
Oh? You can see that? Please tell me.
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Old 16th April 2020, 04:40 PM   #192
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Originally Posted by 3point14 View Post
This is starting to get a little circular, because that came from the BBC article that I put in the post you initially replied to in this exchange.

Is it that you missed that or that you don't think it's sufficiently supported?
No, it's that the facts in the article don't line up with the conclusion you're reaching. Which is why I'd like you to try to explain explicitly how you go from the fact to the conclusion.

Here's your conclusion: "only a very small number of people in one of the richest and most affluent countries in the world actually fly with any regularity"

Here's your fact: " 15% of UK travellers take 70% of all flights"

These two are not the same thing. Maybe I'm missing some obvious way to get from that fact to your conclusion, which is why I asked you to spell it out.




Quote:
I'll bet a reasonably large sum of money that most of that increase doesn't represent more people flying but it represents the same people flying more.
How many individuals do you think it is? Even if the average flyer flew once/week, you'd still have six million individual people who fly (and that would be six million people who all fly once per week!). In China. Moreover, you seemed to think that no one in China flies (only people in the west do so). You also ignored Japan, Korea, The Philippines, Thailand, India... People there fly as well.

Quote:
My point does not depend on their being fewer flights. And more flights does not mean more flyers, it just means more air miles for those flying.
At some point hundreds of millions of trips does mean that there are a lot of people flying.

Quote:
If you accept that 15% of people take 70% of the flights in the UK (and I understand if you don't, it's not well supported) then I really can't see that China is going to be any more egaliitarian than the UK in that respect.
If it's true, 30% of flights are taken by 85% of people. 30%<>0.

Quote:
I'm, open to correction if we can find the actual numbers, but I dont think an increase in the number of air miles in China has any bearing on this argument.
My point wasn't the increase, but the actual number of flights happening. There are a lot of people flying in China. Yet your argument was based on the odd idea that only people in "The West" fly. You even summed up all the people in "The West" as an argument that all people who fly are members of that group.
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Old 16th April 2020, 04:41 PM   #193
Roboramma
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Originally Posted by dann View Post
You can take this quotation with you:
6% worldwide? That seems reasonable to me.
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Old 16th April 2020, 09:37 PM   #194
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Wasn't the original idea of Socialism that it would grow the economy and provide workers with more leisure time? Like skiing?
Now we have political movements that have an explicit goal of economic degrowth and think that it is virtuous to not be able to afford to go on a vacation. I don't get it.
Also, the OP seems to be resentful of the rich, and not neccesarily those that own the means of production. I imagine many, if not most of the vacationers are paid workers of one kind or the other instead of being the owners of the means of production. There are also people who do own the means of production who are too poor to go on a skiing vacation.
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Old 17th April 2020, 02:48 PM   #195
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Quote:
Ryktet om den svenska fristaden har spridit sig.
Europeiska lyxturister kommer till Sverige för att fixa håret, gå på restaurang och festa, menar frisörer som Aftonbladet pratat med.
– Hon var jätteglad för att hon kunde komma hit och färga håret, och uppenbarligen så hade flera av hennes vänner gjort desamma, säger en av frisörerna.
Många länder i Europa tacklar coronaviruset med ”lockdowns”, vilket innebär att frisörsalonger, restauranger och klubbar har bommat igen. Men möjligheten till lyx och flärd finns kvar i Sverige, någonting som lockar jetseters från Europa.
Europeiska kvinnor flyr karantänen – för att lyxfesta i Stockholm - Rika europeiska tjejgäng fixar frillan i Sverige (Aftonbladet, April 17, 2020)
Rumors have spread about the Swedish sanctuary.
European luxury tourists go to Sweden to have their hair done, visit restaurants and party, according to hairdressers that Aftonbladet talked to.
She was extremely happy because she could come here to get her hair dyed, and many of her friends appeared to have done the same thing, one of the hairdressers says.
Many European countries have ”lockdowns” to cope with the coronavirus, which means that hair salons, restaurants and clubs are closed. But Sweden offers the opportunity to indulge in luxury and vanity, which is something that tempts jetsetters from Europe.
European women escape from quarantine – to luxury parties in Stockholm – Rich European groups of girls have their hair done in Sweden
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"Stupidity renders itself invisible by assuming very large proportions. Completely unreasonable claims are irrefutable. Ni-en-leh pointed out that a philosopher might get into trouble by claiming that two times two makes five, but he does not risk much by claiming that two times two makes shoe polish." B. Brecht
"The abolition of religion as the illusory happiness of the people is required for their real happiness. The demand to give up the illusion about its condition is the demand to give up a condition which needs illusions." K. Marx
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Old 18th April 2020, 03:23 AM   #196
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Poverty, Race, Health & Covid-19

Late Night with Seth Meyers, April 14, 2020 (4:42 min.)
Amber's Minute of Fury: Jerome Adams, Surgeon General of the United States

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"Stupidity renders itself invisible by assuming very large proportions. Completely unreasonable claims are irrefutable. Ni-en-leh pointed out that a philosopher might get into trouble by claiming that two times two makes five, but he does not risk much by claiming that two times two makes shoe polish." B. Brecht
"The abolition of religion as the illusory happiness of the people is required for their real happiness. The demand to give up the illusion about its condition is the demand to give up a condition which needs illusions." K. Marx
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Old 18th April 2020, 06:51 AM   #197
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I only made it to page 2 and I'm laughing at how absolutely stupid the premise of this thread is.

People travel.

I seem to recall my own city playing host to 4000+ Athletico Madrid fans whose own country was being locked down due to the outbreak of the virus. Now, I don't really recall seeing many of those Madrid fans wearing top hats and monocles, swanning around town looking like the Spanish version of the Monopoly man. Plenty of people didn't take the pandemic seriously, and they're people of all ilk, rich and poor. Those were the people waving their hands at the general medical advice being doled out, they were the ones still sitting in bars, breathing down peoples necks in the supermarkets, and travelling 10 miles away from their house to walk their dog.

This notion that only rich people are guilty of being ignorant is basically plucked straight out of a paranoid mind that is full of conspiracies and embarrassing theories.

Behave yourself, you wally.
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Old 18th April 2020, 08:32 AM   #198
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If you made it to page two, I find it hard to believe that you think that you have made the brand new discovery that societies consist of people, not aliens. It was xjx388's favourite argument from the very beginning in spite of his ability to distinguish between employers and employees in real life. Instead of his idea that human beings are imperfect, you have your own version about people being stupid. Yes, probably, but that doesn't make them super spreaders, and the health authorities in Austria appear to have been more than just plain stupide. If that had been the case, they probably wouldn't have had that position.

So the only thing in your post that is new and maybe even relevant is your story about "4000+ Athletico Madrid fans" that you seem to think spread the virus in your city. That one is specific and maybe even to the point. Could you tell us more about that?


ETA: I found this article in The Guardian:
Quote:
La Liga decided that day that all matches must be played behind closed doors and Spain’s government had ordered schools closed the day before. In Britain the government was still pursuing its policy of allowing life to continue with no restrictions other than advising people who believed they had Covid-19 symptoms to self-isolate.
It was wrong to play against Atlético, says Liverpool's public health director (Guardian, April 2, 2020)
Why do you think it took so long before the "government changed the policy and began to announce social distancing restrictions"?!
Was it sheer stupidity?
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"Stupidity renders itself invisible by assuming very large proportions. Completely unreasonable claims are irrefutable. Ni-en-leh pointed out that a philosopher might get into trouble by claiming that two times two makes five, but he does not risk much by claiming that two times two makes shoe polish." B. Brecht
"The abolition of religion as the illusory happiness of the people is required for their real happiness. The demand to give up the illusion about its condition is the demand to give up a condition which needs illusions." K. Marx

Last edited by dann; 18th April 2020 at 08:44 AM.
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Old 18th April 2020, 09:59 AM   #199
Gilbert Syndrome
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Originally Posted by dann View Post
If you made it to page two, I find it hard to believe that you think that you have made the brand new discovery that societies consist of people, not aliens. It was xjx388's favourite argument from the very beginning in spite of his ability to distinguish between employers and employees in real life. Instead of his idea that human beings are imperfect, you have your own version about people being stupid. Yes, probably, but that doesn't make them super spreaders, and the health authorities in Austria appear to have been more than just plain stupide. If that had been the case, they probably wouldn't have had that position.

So the only thing in your post that is new and maybe even relevant is your story about "4000+ Athletico Madrid fans" that you seem to think spread the virus in your city. That one is specific and maybe even to the point. Could you tell us more about that?


ETA: I found this article in The Guardian:


Why do you think it took so long before the "government changed the policy and began to announce social distancing restrictions"?!
Was it sheer stupidity?
I seem to think Athletico Madrid fans spread the virus in this city? Did you pull that out of your backside as well?

There's no evidence to suggest that 4K Spaniards entering the city was the sole cause of the virus being here (though it certainly didn't help matters) much like there's zero evidence to suggest your silly theory that the virus is being spread by the rich is any more than a silly theory. You sound a wee bit like one of those 15 year-old neckbeard types to me, mate.

My entire point is that many people are likely responsible for either knowingly or unknowingly spreading the virus simply by not adhering to the advice given regarding safe social-distancing. Those people are rich and poor, and somewhere in between.

The fact that you can't admit this very simple fact is your problem, one of many, I presume.
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Old 18th April 2020, 01:45 PM   #200
dann
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Originally Posted by Gilbert Syndrome View Post
I seem to think Athletico Madrid fans spread the virus in this city? Did you pull that out of your backside as well?

There's no evidence to suggest that 4K Spaniards entering the city was the sole cause of the virus being here (though it certainly didn't help matters) much like there's zero evidence to suggest your silly theory that the virus is being spread by the rich is any more than a silly theory. You sound a wee bit like one of those 15 year-old neckbeard types to me, mate.

My entire point is that many people are likely responsible for either knowingly or unknowingly spreading the virus simply by not adhering to the advice given regarding safe social-distancing. Those people are rich and poor, and somewhere in between.

The fact that you can't admit this very simple fact is your problem, one of many, I presume.

You can roll your eyes and come up with names as much as you want. You're not very good at this argument thing, are you?!
At this point in time, the coronavirus is undoubtedly spread more in poor neighbourhoods than in rich ones. In fact, at this point this is so conspicuous that one of the municipalities, the suburb Rudersdal, which was at the very top of the list of most coronavirus cases per 100.000 at the beginning of the outbreak in Denmark (and mentioned at the beginning of the thread), is now far behind the others at only 120-159. The much more proletarian suburb Glostrup now has 400+.

If you had read the OP, you would have known that business considerations made the tourist industry and health authorities in Ischgl, Austria, ignore all warnings about the local outbreak, which infected affluent ski tourists who then brought it back to their respective home countries in (mainly) Northern Europe, where they spread it to the rest of the populations. (And apparently rich women are still doing it when they go shopping and partying in Stockholm to get away from the boredom of lockdown in their own countries.)
That poor people are the main spreaders and primary victims of the disease at this point is no secret - which you would have known if you had read the latest page or two.

But don't let it bother you that you have no idea what has been posted in this thread so far. Your ignorance of this is so apparent, that I don't need to mention what you sound like.
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"Stupidity renders itself invisible by assuming very large proportions. Completely unreasonable claims are irrefutable. Ni-en-leh pointed out that a philosopher might get into trouble by claiming that two times two makes five, but he does not risk much by claiming that two times two makes shoe polish." B. Brecht
"The abolition of religion as the illusory happiness of the people is required for their real happiness. The demand to give up the illusion about its condition is the demand to give up a condition which needs illusions." K. Marx
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