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Old 22nd May 2020, 05:48 AM   #801
uke2se
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Originally Posted by lionking View Post
I don't get this at all. How is it unfair to criticise Sweden for a deliberate policy of accepting that a relative large number of citizens will get infected? Its entirely fair for the government to be condemned for this policy.
It's not unfair, and I agree that it's fair to criticize the Swedish government for that.

I am saying that it is unfair to criticize them for going for herd-immunity when they are not doing that.

Originally Posted by lionking View Post
You are also conceding that the government was counting on a vaccine while keeping the country relatively open. This is stupidity of world record standards. Sane countries locked down quickly and acted like a vaccine would not quickly be found.
A fair criticism

Originally Posted by lionking View Post
You are saying that this policy was designed so that health care wouldn't be overwhelmed. Really? Again, sane countries realised that the only way for the health system not to be overwhelmed was to lockdown.
Well, the Swedish health care system isn't overwhelmed, so I'd say that Swedish authorities have managed fairly well in this regard.

Originally Posted by lionking View Post
I'm not Swedish obviously, but I stand by my conviction that the country has been criminally negligent in how it has handled this crisis. The evidence supports my conviction.

Denial of these facts is disgusting.
I'm not denying the facts. I just don't think it's a fact that Sweden has been "criminally negligent". That's your opinion. My opinion obviously differs.
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Old 22nd May 2020, 05:49 AM   #802
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Originally Posted by uke2se View Post
The Swedish strategy is about surviving, physically and economically, until a vaccine is developed, all the while ensuring that health care doesn't get overwhelmed.

How is that "surviving physically" actually working out for Swedish people though?

It seems to me this is all about getting through it until a vaccine is developed, for every country. I simply don't understand the choice of strategy to allow so many people to get the virus and become ill and die, rather than to take action to preserve as many lives as possible until the vaccine is available. It seems to me to show no care for the individual citizens at all. Fine for the people who have mild infections but not so much for the ones who have a severe illness, maybe spend weeks in intensive care, maybe come out with permanent lung damage or post-viral syndrome, maybe even die. And then there's the Kawasaki syndrome in children.

How can any government elected (one hopes) to take care of its citizens, hold their wellbeing and their lives in such low regard? How is this by any definition "surviving physically"?
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Old 22nd May 2020, 05:58 AM   #803
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Professorn om att Sverige har högst coronadödstal per invånare: ”Inte rätt att räkna per capita” (SVT.se, May 22, 2020)
The professor about Sweden having the highest per-capita corona death toll: ”It is wrong to count per capita”

This guy is as big a jerk as Anders Tegnell, maybe worse. He actually argues that since about 6% of Swedes have been infected, the percentage of deaths is 0.5-0.7, whereas Denmark has 1.2% total cases, and the percentage of deaths is (maybe) 0.8. For this reason, he thinks that this is the important number to look at!!!

It is unimportant that
Sweden has 3,925 deaths and Denmark 561
Sweden has 389 deaths per million and Denmark 97
Sweden has 32.809 cases and Denmark 11.230
Sweden has 23,913 active cases and Denmark 905
Sweden has tested 20,798 per million and Denmark 88,906.
It doesn’t matter that Sweden tried to achieve a weird sort of ’herd immunity’ by letting as many as possible get infected (and at the same time denying it), it doesn’t matter that 4,000 Swedes were sacrificed for this purpose. The number of per captita deaths ”isn’t interesting”.

I recommend that all those of you who understand Swedish watch the 2-minute-long video with the professor. It has Swedish subtitles. I am shocked by the lack of critical questions from the journalist.


Björn Eriksson fruktar ny smittvåg (SVT.se, May 22, 2020)
Björn Eriksson (director of health care and hospitals in Stockholm) fears new wave of infections


Coronavirus - countries (Worldometers, May 22, 2020)
Sweden: 389 (3,925)
USA: 291 (96,377)
Denmark: 97 (561)
Finland: 55 (306)
Norway: 43 (235)
Iceland: 29 (10) - Iceland is now (again) down to three active cases
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"The abolition of religion as the illusory happiness of the people is required for their real happiness. The demand to give up the illusion about its condition is the demand to give up a condition which needs illusions." K. Marx

Last edited by dann; 22nd May 2020 at 06:00 AM.
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Old 22nd May 2020, 06:15 AM   #804
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Originally Posted by Rolfe View Post
How is this by any definition "surviving physically"?

It obviously isn't, but the disease of Swedish nationalism is so extremely difficult to eradicate. Critical thinking in regard to the state of Sweden just seems impossible. The eyes of the world are on Sweden right now, and all everybody seems to be concerned with is how to make Sweden and its horrendous coronavirus strategy look good.
When Swedes begin to question the behaviour of their rulers, they tend to become radical racists instead of radical critics of the state.

The young demonstrators against the Swedish coronavirus strategy gave me some hope that Sweden wasn't a lost cause, but there doesn't seem to be more than a handful of them.
Greta Thunberg doesn't seem to be among them. I don't know if the scientists that she calls for people to "unite behind" are guys like Tegnell, Giesecke and Matti Sällberg, the professor from my previous post.
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"Stupidity renders itself invisible by assuming very large proportions. Completely unreasonable claims are irrefutable. Ni-en-leh pointed out that a philosopher might get into trouble by claiming that two times two makes five, but he does not risk much by claiming that two times two makes shoe polish." B. Brecht
"The abolition of religion as the illusory happiness of the people is required for their real happiness. The demand to give up the illusion about its condition is the demand to give up a condition which needs illusions." K. Marx

Last edited by dann; 22nd May 2020 at 07:09 AM.
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Old 22nd May 2020, 06:39 AM   #805
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The only logic anyone has advanced for this is the idea that Sweden decided to let the inevitable deaths happen immediately rather than saving them up for later. But to me that is no rationalisation at all.
  • Perhaps the people who are destined to die would have liked another year or so of life.
  • What if better treatments come along so that people who catch Covid-19 in 2021 rather than 2020 have a much better chance of surviving it?
  • What if the countries who are suppressing the virus with test, trace, isolate get so slick at it that there is no "later" surge in deaths to compare with the deaths Sweden accepted up-front, even if no vaccine appears soon?
  • What if the suggestions that an effective vaccine might be available by the autumn actually come to fruition and every country is able to eradicate the disease completely with few additional deaths?
  • What if the vaccine comes along some time next year, which is actually quite likely? Do we really think that the suppressing countries will have lost control before then and suffered a worse death toll than Sweden in the intervening period? Really? For sure? Enough to bet many thousands of lives on it?
Nobody has addressed any of these questions. I agree that the Swedish strategy is criminal. Just as I believed it was criminal when our politicians were going for the same thing up till mid-March.
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Old 22nd May 2020, 07:05 AM   #806
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Originally Posted by dann View Post
Interesting comparison of Norway, Denmark and Sweden:

I have taken the numbers from these curves comparing different countries:
Døde siden første dødsfald (TV2, April 19, 2020) = (Total number of) deaths since first death

Day No: 08 - 11 - 14 - 17 -- 20 -- 23 --- 26 --- 29 --- 32 ---- 35 ---- 38
Number of deaths:
Norway: 07 - 14 - 23 - 39 -- 59 -- 76 -- 108 - 128 - 150 -- 164
Denmark:15 - 25 - 43 - 76 -110 - 170 - 214 - 254 - 292 -- 330 -- 355
Sweden: 11 - 21 - 62 - 105 -180 -358 - 477 - 793 - 899 -1203 - 1511

I wasn't aware that Denmark was ahead of Sweden at the beginning of the pandemic.

Population:
Norway: 5,378,857
Denmark: 5,771,876
Sweden: 10,036,379

Let me give you an update on the post above from April 19:

Day No: -- 38 -- 41 -- 44 --- 47 --- 50 --- 53 --- 56 --- 59 --- 62 --- 65 --- 68
Number of deaths:
Norway: - 182 - 199 205 - 210 - 211 -- 216 - 219 - 228 - 232 - 232 - 235
Denmark: 361 - 386 416 - 435 - 462 -- 490 - 506 - 519 - 534 - 544 - 552
Sweden: 1511 1765 2152 2274 2586 2679 2941 3220 3313 3646 3698
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"Stupidity renders itself invisible by assuming very large proportions. Completely unreasonable claims are irrefutable. Ni-en-leh pointed out that a philosopher might get into trouble by claiming that two times two makes five, but he does not risk much by claiming that two times two makes shoe polish." B. Brecht
"The abolition of religion as the illusory happiness of the people is required for their real happiness. The demand to give up the illusion about its condition is the demand to give up a condition which needs illusions." K. Marx
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Old 22nd May 2020, 07:29 AM   #807
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You know there's a table function in the forum software?

Day noNorwayDenmarkSweden
381823611511
411993861765
442054162152
472114352274
502164622586
532194902679
592285062941
622325193220
652325343313
682355443646
  5523698

I presume these are cumulative numbers. In a way actual new deaths per day might be more informative. Or give a different perspective.
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Old 22nd May 2020, 07:36 AM   #808
dann
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Originally Posted by Rolfe View Post
Nobody has addressed any of these questions.

I think that Arcade22 did so a couple of times. Something along the lines of 'Ya just gotta be tough' and 'In the end, Sweden's superior strategy will prove the rest of the world wrong.'

It's not at all easy for nationalists to go from arrogantly taking pride in being the role model for the rest of the world to becoming the sick man of Europe (or maybe even of the world).

I think that this pre-corona article contains one of the points that Arcade22 has been referring to a couple of times, but his sarcasm and consternation makes it a little difficult to know when he is in earnest, and he doesn't put in much effort to try to explain himself:

Quote:
For many years, Sweden had the most developed welfare state in the world. Almost all sectors of society were regulated by the state and there were hardly any private alternatives in the health or school sector. The rights of working people were expanded to include 25 days’ paid vacation and a generous social security system.
(...)
But in the early 1990s, the political winds started to blow in another direction and suddenly Sweden started to liberalize and deregulate the welfare sector. In 1991, the forced sharing of profits with workers was abolished in total. But Sweden didn’t find its way to lagom, or moderation, by establishing an equilibrium among these competing public and private interests. Instead, it began tilting toward new extremes.

Within a few years, the education sector and parts of the welfare system were opened up for private companies; today there are no regulations whatsoever on the amounts of profit that private companies can make from publicly-financed schools. Today Sweden has the most market-friendly schooling system in the modern world. The only country that comes close is Chile.
THE RADICAL PARADOX OF SWEDEN’S CONSENSUS CULTURE - Our Inclination to Agree Pushes Political and Social Policies to Extremes (Zócalo Public Square, April 19, 2017)

It is remarkable that a Social Democrat is the primeminister of Sweden right now ...
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"Stupidity renders itself invisible by assuming very large proportions. Completely unreasonable claims are irrefutable. Ni-en-leh pointed out that a philosopher might get into trouble by claiming that two times two makes five, but he does not risk much by claiming that two times two makes shoe polish." B. Brecht
"The abolition of religion as the illusory happiness of the people is required for their real happiness. The demand to give up the illusion about its condition is the demand to give up a condition which needs illusions." K. Marx
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Old 22nd May 2020, 07:39 AM   #809
dann
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Originally Posted by Rolfe View Post
You know there's a table function in the forum software?

I have noticed (when I've seen others use it), but there are few thing I hate more than reading even a paragraph of something resembling a manual!
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"Stupidity renders itself invisible by assuming very large proportions. Completely unreasonable claims are irrefutable. Ni-en-leh pointed out that a philosopher might get into trouble by claiming that two times two makes five, but he does not risk much by claiming that two times two makes shoe polish." B. Brecht
"The abolition of religion as the illusory happiness of the people is required for their real happiness. The demand to give up the illusion about its condition is the demand to give up a condition which needs illusions." K. Marx
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Old 22nd May 2020, 07:44 AM   #810
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Originally Posted by Rolfe View Post
In a way actual new deaths per day might be more informative. Or give a different perspective.

You can see them as curves in my link: Scroll all the way down to: Døde siden første dødsfald (Number of deaths since the first death).
And you can add other countries.
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"Stupidity renders itself invisible by assuming very large proportions. Completely unreasonable claims are irrefutable. Ni-en-leh pointed out that a philosopher might get into trouble by claiming that two times two makes five, but he does not risk much by claiming that two times two makes shoe polish." B. Brecht
"The abolition of religion as the illusory happiness of the people is required for their real happiness. The demand to give up the illusion about its condition is the demand to give up a condition which needs illusions." K. Marx

Last edited by dann; 22nd May 2020 at 07:46 AM.
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Old 22nd May 2020, 07:51 AM   #811
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It's a funny thing. I'm well known for being a Scottish nationalist. I think the number of deaths in Scotland is appalling. I blame Westminster's initial decision to do what Sweden is doing, only on steroids for that. But I also blame our own First Minister who, despite also being a Scottish nationalist, decided at the beginning to do what Westminster did, and not to think for herself.

As a result she stopped our contact tracing programme on 12th March, the same day England stopped contact tracing, in the name of "moving in lockstep" even though we were a couple of weeks earlier on our epidemic curve at the time and the operation could easily have been continued. At the time Public Health Scotland was working on a median estimate of 88,000 deaths in Scotland if she did that. But she did it anyway. At the same time the examples of Wuhan, South Korea and Taiwan were already showing that determined contact tracing could suppress the virus and dramatically cut the mortality rate. But she did it anyway.

I am incensed by this. She is the leader of the political party I belong to and I am not cutting her any slack at all on this. I like to think that if Scotland had been an independent country, able to act freely, our politicians (who would not include Nicola Sturgeon) would have listened to the right advice and we'd have been more like Norway or Denmark. I scarcely hope for New Zealand. I don't know, of course. We could have elected some clod like Tegnell who would have decided to sacrifice Scots lives the way Tegnell is prepared to sacrifice Swedish lives and Johnson was prepared to sacrifice British lives, even with full autonomy.

I really wish we'd had a chance at doing our own thing though. I think there's a man sitting in a house in Strichen right now writing a book who would have done that. But if he hadn't I'd have excoriated him the way I excoriate his traitrous protege and successor.

What does "nationalist" mean anyway? To me it doesn't mean "my country right or wrong" or "whatever my country does must be right". It means the chance to control your own affairs so you're not dragged to hell in a handbasket by a neighbouring country who hates you but still won't let you go.
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Old 22nd May 2020, 11:00 AM   #812
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I learned a little about Scottish nationalism in Edinburgh 25 years ago when I was having a chat in a pub with some of the locals and made the mistake of beginning a sentence with, "You Englishmen ..." (In Denmark, we tend to call all of the UK, England. Sorry! We also call the Netherlands Holland.)

I'm an anti-nationalist myself, but I have only mentioned the theme in this thread because it's impossible to understand the relationship between the political leaders of Sweden and their underlings without it; what the article calls Sweden's Consensus Culture and the authoritarian way of thinking that it encourages.
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"Stupidity renders itself invisible by assuming very large proportions. Completely unreasonable claims are irrefutable. Ni-en-leh pointed out that a philosopher might get into trouble by claiming that two times two makes five, but he does not risk much by claiming that two times two makes shoe polish." B. Brecht
"The abolition of religion as the illusory happiness of the people is required for their real happiness. The demand to give up the illusion about its condition is the demand to give up a condition which needs illusions." K. Marx

Last edited by dann; 22nd May 2020 at 11:02 AM.
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Old 22nd May 2020, 11:20 AM   #813
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Originally Posted by dann View Post
It doesn’t matter that Sweden tried to achieve a weird sort of ’herd immunity’ by letting as many as possible get infected (and at the same time denying it), it doesn’t matter that 4,000 Swedes were sacrificed for this purpose. The number of per captita deaths ”isn’t interesting”.
Edited by Agatha:  Edited for breach of rule 0 and rule 12
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Old 22nd May 2020, 12:14 PM   #814
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Originally Posted by dann View Post
I'm an anti-nationalist myself, ...

Well, you see, that link has nothing at all to do with Scottish nationalism. Scottish nationalism is the desire to see Scotland as an ordinary country, with the normal degree of control over its own assets and resources, and the normal ability to enter into agreements and treaties directly with other independent countries, and not to have all our assets taken by a neighbouring country who then gives us about half back and calls it a handout and calls us subsidy junkies.

To be able to choose for ourselves whether we want weapons of mass destruction based 25 miles from our largest city. To decide for ourselves whether we want an enormous proportion of our land area dedicated to blood sports pursued by a tiny minority while local people struggle to find a patch of land to build a house on. To be able to close our borders during a pandemic rather than have another country insist they stay open. To decide for ourselves whether we want to be a member state of the EU rather than be dragged out by aforesaid neighbouring country after we'd voted 62% to remain a member.

To be able to name ourselves, rather than have people in other countries name us as a people we aren't.

That kind of thing. You know. We think Denmark is a good model to aspire to. Like the Danes wouldn't want Denmark to become another German Land. Would you be an anti-nationalist if Germany wanted to incorporate Denmark?
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Old 22nd May 2020, 12:33 PM   #815
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I have more in common with some Germans than with some Danes, so in your imaginary scenario, I would like to know what the purpose of the incorporation was.

I empathize and sympathize with some Swedes, the young protestors, for instance, so if the Danish government adopted the Swedish coronavirus strategy, the protestors and I would be joined in our opposition to the ******** in power in both our countries.

I'm pretty sure that you can find many Londoners who would agree with you about both WMDs and pandemic strategies, and many Edinburghers who would applaud Anders Tegnell as the new Scottish national epidemiologist.

Even when the alien reptilian overlords arrive, I would still like to hear a little more about their intentions before I commit to anything. (I do detest all kinds of overlords, though, but I'm pretty undecided about alien reptilians.)
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"Stupidity renders itself invisible by assuming very large proportions. Completely unreasonable claims are irrefutable. Ni-en-leh pointed out that a philosopher might get into trouble by claiming that two times two makes five, but he does not risk much by claiming that two times two makes shoe polish." B. Brecht
"The abolition of religion as the illusory happiness of the people is required for their real happiness. The demand to give up the illusion about its condition is the demand to give up a condition which needs illusions." K. Marx

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Old 22nd May 2020, 12:47 PM   #816
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It seems as if it's all fine for countries that have managed to gain their independance already. Westminster sends envoys to their independence day celebrations and ambassadors are exchanged and all the polite words are said. Even though in some cases these were the very countries the same government had been declaring were absolutely incapable of survival should they have the temerity to try to control their own affairs.

We all have a great deal in common with lots of people from lots of countries across the globe. That doesn't generally mean every country should be governed by another. But this is really a question of semantics. Scotland wants to be like Denmark, or Norway, or Estonia, or Slovenia, or Swizerland, or New Zealand, or Belgium, or any other country of similar size that has control over its own affairs. It wants to be able to choose for itself which if any of these examples it wants to emulate.

Why is it fine for all these countries to be the way they are, but evil and wicked for Scotland to want to have the same status in the future? Should Norway go back under Swedish rule? Should Estonia be re-incorporated into Russia, because it's evil to want to be the way they are? Because a particular label has been slapped on to that aspiration, and then the label has been denounced as evil?
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Old 22nd May 2020, 01:27 PM   #817
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I haven't argued for hegemony or imperialism at all. On the contrary. And I don't find it difficult to understand why some people in Greenland or the Faroe Islands would rather no be a part of the Danish Realm. (And, in the present situation, why some people in Scania would! )
But we have move very far away from Sweden's pandemic strategy, haven't we?!
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"Stupidity renders itself invisible by assuming very large proportions. Completely unreasonable claims are irrefutable. Ni-en-leh pointed out that a philosopher might get into trouble by claiming that two times two makes five, but he does not risk much by claiming that two times two makes shoe polish." B. Brecht
"The abolition of religion as the illusory happiness of the people is required for their real happiness. The demand to give up the illusion about its condition is the demand to give up a condition which needs illusions." K. Marx
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Old 22nd May 2020, 01:29 PM   #818
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Yes, it's a bit of a digression. I was just struck that you used a word about Swedish people in a very pejorative sense, when that word is one I would accept as being attached to me, but I would not accept the pejorative connotations.
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Old 22nd May 2020, 02:07 PM   #819
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As a counter-example to Sweden, I only found this out this evening. It appears to be true.

COVID underdogs: Mongolia. The best Covid-19 response in the world
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Old 22nd May 2020, 02:37 PM   #820
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Originally Posted by Rolfe View Post
As a counter-example to Sweden, I only found this out this evening. It appears to be true.

COVID underdogs: Mongolia. The best Covid-19 response in the world
Wow. Thanks for this. Utterly fascinating.

I know this is drifting off topic, but I’m staggered about Ireland, number 10 in the world for infection rates and number 11 for deaths. No Boris Johnson factor there. As someone with Irish descent and who loves the country and people I’m very saddened.
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Old 22nd May 2020, 02:46 PM   #821
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I thought New Zealand or Australia was going to win. But apparently Mongolia went for the early lead and kept it. They pulled together to save all of their people, while we sacrificed our grandparents to the economy. Or Dominic Cummings did anyway,
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Old 22nd May 2020, 03:04 PM   #822
Ulf Nereng
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Originally Posted by dann View Post
One of the super spreaders behind the outbreak in the Nordic countries appears to have been a bartender in Ischgl, Austria, who had a whistle that he blew into a lot as some kind of game. The same whistle was used by several other patrons of the bar, who then carried the virus back from Austria as a souvenir to be distributed among the less fortunate.
Here's a link to an article about that bar. It's in Norwegian, though.

https://www.vg.no/nyheter/utenriks/i...d/corona-baren

It mentions two things that I found interesting; Number one is that they were playing popular Scandinavian songs. Did people sing along? I suspect so, but the article doesn't say, unfortunately. The other item is a person who says that alcohol in the blood lowers one's immune defense temporarily. I wasn't aware of that. Is it really so?
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Old 22nd May 2020, 10:53 PM   #823
dann
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Originally Posted by Rolfe View Post
As a counter-example to Sweden, I only found this out this evening. It appears to be true.

COVID underdogs: Mongolia. The best Covid-19 response in the world

That is amazing! And for those of you who dismiss Iceland and New Zealand because they are islands: Mongolia.

However, as amazing as Mongolia is as an example of the ideal way of handling the coronavirus (and probably pandemics yet to come), it is pretty useless as an example of what to do about it after an infection has started spreading in a country. I think countries like Iceland, New Zealand and Norway are much better examples of how to cope with corona when it is already there.
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"The abolition of religion as the illusory happiness of the people is required for their real happiness. The demand to give up the illusion about its condition is the demand to give up a condition which needs illusions." K. Marx
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Old 22nd May 2020, 11:06 PM   #824
dann
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Originally Posted by Ulf Nereng View Post
Here's a link to an article about that bar. It's in Norwegian, though.

https://www.vg.no/nyheter/utenriks/i...d/corona-baren

It mentions two things that I found interesting; Number one is that they were playing popular Scandinavian songs. Did people sing along? I suspect so, but the article doesn't say, unfortunately. The other item is a person who says that alcohol in the blood lowers one's immune defense temporarily. I wasn't aware of that. Is it really so?

"Østerrike er dermed landet der flest nordmenn er blitt smittet."
Translation: This means that Austria is the country where most Norwegians were infected.

That was also the case in Denmark. The vast majority of people who came down with the virus at the start of the pandemic were ski tourists from Austria. The vast majority of the rest had been in Italy. (See my OP and later posts in the coronavirus and capitalism thread.
I don't know how alcohol affects the immune defence, but it definitely makes people behave in ways that make them more prone to get infected.
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"Stupidity renders itself invisible by assuming very large proportions. Completely unreasonable claims are irrefutable. Ni-en-leh pointed out that a philosopher might get into trouble by claiming that two times two makes five, but he does not risk much by claiming that two times two makes shoe polish." B. Brecht
"The abolition of religion as the illusory happiness of the people is required for their real happiness. The demand to give up the illusion about its condition is the demand to give up a condition which needs illusions." K. Marx
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Old 22nd May 2020, 11:12 PM   #825
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This one from this morning about the death toll from the coronavirus in the five Nordic countries is so obvious that I don't think I have to translate it, but "54 døde på 24 timer" means 54 dead (or deaths) in 24 hours.

Quote:
Coronadødstallet i Norden passerer 5.000
Det samlede antal døde i de fem nordiske lande som følge af coronaviruspandemien er natten til lørdag oppe på 5.037.
Det seneste døgn er Sverige det eneste nordiske land, der har haft nye dødsfald som følge af coronavirusset.
Her er de akkumulerede dødstal frem til 01.00 lørdag. Tallet i parentes er dødstallet per 100.000 indbyggere. Der kan være forskel på landenes opgørelsesmetoder, hvorfor sammenligninger bør tages med forbehold.
* Sverige: 3.925 døde (38,4). 54 døde på 24 timer.
* Danmark: 561 døde (9,7). 0 døde på 24 timer.
* Finland: 306 døde (5,5). 0 døde på 24 timer.
* Norge: 235 døde (4,4). 0 døde på 24 timer.
* Island: 10 døde (2,7). 0 døde på 24 timer.
Kilder: Johns Hopkins University, Styrelsen for Patientsikkerhed, Landslægeembedet i Grønland.
LIVE Seneste nyt om coronavirus (DR.dk, May 23, 2020 – 06:37)
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"Stupidity renders itself invisible by assuming very large proportions. Completely unreasonable claims are irrefutable. Ni-en-leh pointed out that a philosopher might get into trouble by claiming that two times two makes five, but he does not risk much by claiming that two times two makes shoe polish." B. Brecht
"The abolition of religion as the illusory happiness of the people is required for their real happiness. The demand to give up the illusion about its condition is the demand to give up a condition which needs illusions." K. Marx
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Old 23rd May 2020, 12:03 AM   #826
dann
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And the news from Sweden just keep getting worse:

Covidutbrott på infektionsavdelning i Lund – en tredjedel av personalen smittad (SVT.se, May 22, 2020)
Covid outbreak at hospital infection ward in Lund (Scania) - one third of the staff infected

Avslöjandet om munskydden blir riksdagsfråga – ”Kan ha bidragit till de höga dödstalen” (SVT.se, May 22, 2020)
The exposure about mouth protection becomes matter for the parliament - "May have contributed to the high death toll"
KRÖNIKA: Myndigheten duckar de svåra frågorna (SVT.se, May 22, 2020)
The authorities evade the tough questions
Mejlen avslöjar: Ministerns medarbetare ville vara med på kritiserade mötet (SVT.se, May 22, 2020)
Email reveals: People working for the minister wanted to be at the criticized meeting

The scandal is that the government and the authority for the protection of workers appear to have accepted that nursing staff had face shields only but no mouth and nose protection.
(Face shields protect the eyes of people working with coronavirus patients, but they do nothing to protect them from inhaling virus particles. And face shields also don't do much to protect the patients they work with if they cough or sneeze.)

This is so bloody awful that I don't have words for it. And now they are trying to cover it up!
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"Stupidity renders itself invisible by assuming very large proportions. Completely unreasonable claims are irrefutable. Ni-en-leh pointed out that a philosopher might get into trouble by claiming that two times two makes five, but he does not risk much by claiming that two times two makes shoe polish." B. Brecht
"The abolition of religion as the illusory happiness of the people is required for their real happiness. The demand to give up the illusion about its condition is the demand to give up a condition which needs illusions." K. Marx
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Old 23rd May 2020, 12:20 AM   #827
dann
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Tegnell: Därför är siffrorna om antikroppar så låga (Expressen.se, May 23, 2020)
Tegnell: This is why the numbers about antibodies are so low

Anders Tegnell trying to talk his way out of the difference between the assumed number of people with antibodies and the latest, much lower, actual number.
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"Stupidity renders itself invisible by assuming very large proportions. Completely unreasonable claims are irrefutable. Ni-en-leh pointed out that a philosopher might get into trouble by claiming that two times two makes five, but he does not risk much by claiming that two times two makes shoe polish." B. Brecht
"The abolition of religion as the illusory happiness of the people is required for their real happiness. The demand to give up the illusion about its condition is the demand to give up a condition which needs illusions." K. Marx
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Old 23rd May 2020, 12:23 AM   #828
dann
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Originally Posted by uke2se View Post
Well, the Swedish health care system isn't overwhelmed, so I'd say that Swedish authorities have managed fairly well in this regard.

I would like to hear your definition of overwhelmed and managing fairly well.
Do you still think that the Swedish health care system isn't overwhelmed after reading about the latest scandals?
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"Stupidity renders itself invisible by assuming very large proportions. Completely unreasonable claims are irrefutable. Ni-en-leh pointed out that a philosopher might get into trouble by claiming that two times two makes five, but he does not risk much by claiming that two times two makes shoe polish." B. Brecht
"The abolition of religion as the illusory happiness of the people is required for their real happiness. The demand to give up the illusion about its condition is the demand to give up a condition which needs illusions." K. Marx

Last edited by dann; 23rd May 2020 at 12:24 AM.
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Old 23rd May 2020, 12:43 AM   #829
dann
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I just discovered this in the magazine for Swedish MDs from March 9!!!. At that time, Sweden still attempted to do testing and tracing. It was before they gave up completely.
Sverige bör byta strategi för att bromsa spridning av coronaviruset (Läkartidningen)
Sweden should change its strategy in order to slow down the spread of the coronavirus

It is also interesting to read the comments. An Icelandic doctor warns that Sweden's precautions are completely insufficient. And a Swedish doctor warns that experts shouldn't disagree in public! (Rembember: Sweden's consensus culture!)
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"Stupidity renders itself invisible by assuming very large proportions. Completely unreasonable claims are irrefutable. Ni-en-leh pointed out that a philosopher might get into trouble by claiming that two times two makes five, but he does not risk much by claiming that two times two makes shoe polish." B. Brecht
"The abolition of religion as the illusory happiness of the people is required for their real happiness. The demand to give up the illusion about its condition is the demand to give up a condition which needs illusions." K. Marx
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Old 23rd May 2020, 01:22 AM   #830
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We gave up completely on 12th March. When we only had about 25 cases and were well on top of it. We did this because our First Minister had decided to do whatever England did, and England had decided to "take it on the chin", in other words let the virus spread out of control.

Tragically we were 10 to 14 days behind London on the epidemic curve at the time because the virus was introduced later into Scotland and we could easily have kept going. We had contact tracers who weren't even called on. If we'd kept going for another ten days it would have taken us into when England declared lockdown, having become frightened by what was happening in London. In the spirit of doing whatever England did, we went into lockdown too. We'd have been in a much better place if we'd continued to suppress the virus for that extra ten days. We had 24 deaths yesterday.

People (who are Nicola Sturgeon fanbois) say "she was trying not to be political". In my book the choice to do what another country does irrespective of the situation in your own country, in order not to upset the politicians in the other country, is a political choice and it's not one I'm at all happy with.
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Old 23rd May 2020, 02:37 AM   #831
dann
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Could they be thinking of traditional parliamentary party politics?

The primeministers of Denmark, Finland and Sweden are Social Democrats. Iceland's PM is left-green, Norway's is conservative.

I don't really know what happened to the Social Democrats in Sweden. I guess they changed from social-state politics to something akin to Blair's New Labour.

I think that the leader of the local government in the Faroe Islands is a conservative. The one in Greenland is a Social Democrat (or a democratic socialist - I can't tell the difference).
Arcinda Ardern is also a Social Democrat (or Labour).
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"Stupidity renders itself invisible by assuming very large proportions. Completely unreasonable claims are irrefutable. Ni-en-leh pointed out that a philosopher might get into trouble by claiming that two times two makes five, but he does not risk much by claiming that two times two makes shoe polish." B. Brecht
"The abolition of religion as the illusory happiness of the people is required for their real happiness. The demand to give up the illusion about its condition is the demand to give up a condition which needs illusions." K. Marx
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Old 23rd May 2020, 03:13 AM   #832
dann
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Sjuksköterskorna: ”Hur länge orkar man?” (SVT.se, May 23, 2020)
Hospital nurses: "How long can you keep working like this?"

Quote:
Läkarförbundets ordförande Heidi Stensmyren berättar att medlemmarna vittnar om en väldigt slitsam arbetssituation till följd av den utdragna coronasmittan. Vidare menar hon att semestervila är helt avgörande för personalen.
– Det är som ett maratonlopp, men vi kan inte ha ett maratonlopp om vi inte vet hur länge vi ska springa, säger hon i SVT:s Helgstudion.
Läkarförbundets ordförande om sjukvårdspersonalen semester: ”Är helt avgörande” (SVT.se, May 23, 2020)
Translation:
Heidi Stensmyren, spokesperson for the organisation of medical doctors, says that the members talk about very strenuous working conditions due to the prolonged corona contagion. She also thinks that holidays for rest and recreation are absolutely essential for the staff.
- This is like running a marathon, but we can't have a marathon when we don't know how long we can keep running, se says to SVT's weekend studio.
The spokesperson for the MD's organization about holidays: "It is absolutely essential."

To me, this doesn't sound as if "the Swedish health care system isn't overwhelmed."


Swedish rapper writes a tribute to Anders Tegnell:
Dr Alban hyllar Tegnell i ny coronalåt: ”Stabil, rak och rationell” (Aftonbladet.se, May 15, 2020)
Dr. Alban praises Tegnell in new corona song: "Stable, straight and rational"
A very stable genius, apparently.

Tattoo parlors probably never locked down in Sweden:
Här tatuerar Gustav in Anders Tegnell (Aftonbladet.se, April 27, 2020)
Here Gustav gets a tattoo of Anders Tegnell (article includes video)
Man, that's a tattoo that he may live to regret!
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"Stupidity renders itself invisible by assuming very large proportions. Completely unreasonable claims are irrefutable. Ni-en-leh pointed out that a philosopher might get into trouble by claiming that two times two makes five, but he does not risk much by claiming that two times two makes shoe polish." B. Brecht
"The abolition of religion as the illusory happiness of the people is required for their real happiness. The demand to give up the illusion about its condition is the demand to give up a condition which needs illusions." K. Marx

Last edited by dann; 23rd May 2020 at 03:15 AM.
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Old 23rd May 2020, 09:51 AM   #833
dann
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Testing in Sweden - still not where it should be

Quote:
I början av maj sade socialminister Lena Hallengren (S) att 100 000 personer i veckan skulle kunna testas för coronaviruset i mitten av maj. Så har det inte blivit.
Lena Hallengren: Fler ska coronatestas (SVT.se, May 23, 2020)
Translation:
In early May, social minister Lena Hallengren (S) said that it should be possible for 100,000 persons a week to get tested for coronavirus by mid-May.
This hasn’t happened.
Lena Hallengren: More people are to get tested

Kristersson kritiskt till testkapaciteten: ”Staten borde ta kommandot” (SVT.se, May 23, 2020)
Kristersson (politician) criticizes testing capacity: ”The state should take control”
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"Stupidity renders itself invisible by assuming very large proportions. Completely unreasonable claims are irrefutable. Ni-en-leh pointed out that a philosopher might get into trouble by claiming that two times two makes five, but he does not risk much by claiming that two times two makes shoe polish." B. Brecht
"The abolition of religion as the illusory happiness of the people is required for their real happiness. The demand to give up the illusion about its condition is the demand to give up a condition which needs illusions." K. Marx
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Old 23rd May 2020, 10:05 AM   #834
dann
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Tegnell

A few days ago, Anders Tegnell was convinced that tracing had become superfluous since the virus had spread to all of Swedish society:
Anders Tegnell: Klustersmittan över – Sverige i ny fas (Expressen.se, May 19, 2020)
Anders Tegnell: The spreading in clusters is over – Sweden is in a new stage


Quote:
En nedstängning av samhället hade inte stoppat smittspridningen inne på landets äldreboenden. Det säger Anders Tegnell i ”Söndagsintervjun” i P1.
– Jag är väldigt tveksam till att vi hade kunnat göra så väldigt mycket mer.
Tegnell: ”Väldigt tveksam till att vi kunnat göra mer” (SVT.se, May 23, 2020)
A lockdown of society wouldn’t have stopped the contagion of the country’s nursing homes. Anders Tegnells says so in the ”Sunday Interview” on Radio 1.
- I very much doubt that we could have done much more.
Tegnell: ”Very doubtful that we could have done more”

You didn't do a thing, Tegnell, apart from a little advice about washing your hands and social distancing recommendations. How couldn't you have done more?!


Originally Posted by dann View Post
The young demonstrators against the Swedish coronavirus strategy gave me some hope that Sweden wasn't a lost cause, but there doesn't seem to be more than a handful of them.
Greta Thunberg doesn't seem to be among them. I don't know if the scientists that she calls for people to "unite behind" are guys like Tegnell, Giesecke and Matti Sällberg, the professor from my previous post.
So far, I haven't been able to find any references to Anders Tegnell or the Swedish coronavirus strategy in any of the things that Greta Thunberg has said or written, so maybe she is a part of Sweden's consensus culture. However, he has referred to her:
Quote:
Till Aftonbladet har Tegnell sagt att det pågår en ”hat- och mobbningskampanj” mot honom.
Många riktar sig mot dig i det här läget, hur upplever du det?
– Jag tycker att det är tråkigt att man har den typen av samhällsklimat. Så fort man blir det minsta offentlig så ska man utsättas för den här typen av storm. Jag är ändå relativt skyddad jämfört med många. Men jag kan se framför mig hur personer som Greta Thunberg och andra har det ständigt. Jag tycker det är tråkigt att vi har ett sådant samhälle.
Tegnell: Ser framför mig hur Greta Thunberg har det (Expressen.se, March 19, 2020)
Translation:
Tegnell has said to the Aftonbladet that there is a "campaign of hate and bullying" against him.
Many criticize you in this situation, how do you feel about that?
- I find it very annoying that we have this kind of social atmosphere. As soon as you become publicly known just a little bit, you get exposed to a storm like this. I am relatively protected in comparison to many others. But I see persons like Greta Thunberg and others are exposed to this permanently.
It annoys me that we have this kind of society.
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"Stupidity renders itself invisible by assuming very large proportions. Completely unreasonable claims are irrefutable. Ni-en-leh pointed out that a philosopher might get into trouble by claiming that two times two makes five, but he does not risk much by claiming that two times two makes shoe polish." B. Brecht
"The abolition of religion as the illusory happiness of the people is required for their real happiness. The demand to give up the illusion about its condition is the demand to give up a condition which needs illusions." K. Marx

Last edited by dann; 23rd May 2020 at 10:17 AM.
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Old 23rd May 2020, 10:11 AM   #835
dann
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67 nya dödsfall – totalt 3 992 avlidna (SVT.se, May 23, 2020)
67 new deaths - total 3,992 deceased

It has been two days in a row now that nobody has died from coronavirus in the other four Nordic countries:
Coronavirus - countries (Worldometers, May 23, 2020)
Deaths per million (Total deaths)
Sweden: 396 (3,992)
USA: 297 (98,145)
Denmark: 97 (561)
Finland: 55 (306)
Norway: 43 (235)
Iceland: 29 (10) - Iceland was down to two active cases earlier today, but later got up to three again.
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"Stupidity renders itself invisible by assuming very large proportions. Completely unreasonable claims are irrefutable. Ni-en-leh pointed out that a philosopher might get into trouble by claiming that two times two makes five, but he does not risk much by claiming that two times two makes shoe polish." B. Brecht
"The abolition of religion as the illusory happiness of the people is required for their real happiness. The demand to give up the illusion about its condition is the demand to give up a condition which needs illusions." K. Marx

Last edited by dann; 23rd May 2020 at 10:42 AM.
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Old 23rd May 2020, 11:00 AM   #836
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Originally Posted by dann View Post
Coronavirus - countries (Worldometers, May 23, 2020)
Deaths per million (Total deaths)
Sweden: 396 (3,992)
USA: 297 (98,145)
Denmark: 97 (561)
Finland: 55 (306)
Norway: 43 (235)
Iceland: 29 (10) - Iceland was down to two active cases earlier today, but later got up to three again.
Massachusetts, USA: 905 (6,228)

Nyah nyah Sweden, we gonna be more herd immune than you! And deader too!
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Old 23rd May 2020, 11:18 AM   #837
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Originally Posted by Rolfe View Post
The only logic anyone has advanced for this is the idea that Sweden decided to let the inevitable deaths happen immediately rather than saving them up for later. But to me that is no rationalisation at all.
[list][*]Perhaps the people who are destined to die would have liked another year or so of life.
Couldn't anyone who had serious health concerns have voluntarily self-isolated?

It's not like Sweden forced the high-risk demographics to go out and kiss people and touch stuff.

Wear a mask, bring a bottle of hand sanitizer when you go shopping. Don't dine out for a while. Skip the summer festival this year. Stream your movies instead of going to the cinema. Etc.

Was the Swedish government's mistake that they didn't realize their citizens were too stupid to be trusted with their own lives for six months?
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Old 23rd May 2020, 11:33 AM   #838
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The answer to that question is that no doubt many could and did, but having regard to the variety of personal circumstances people find themselves in, by no means all. Starting with people too frail to be able to look after themselves without help.

We've also all seen the stories of the people with serious health concerns who had other considerations such as needing to earn a living or caring for someone frailer than themselves that prevented them from isolating.

And then there are the people with no known health concern that upped and died of it anyway.

Whatever way you slice it, if you allow a virus like this to circulate freely through the population a lot of people will catch it. Not everyone who is in a vulnerable group will be able to avoid catching it, and people will die in both vulnerable and non-vulnerable groups.

But who knew? Maybe the Mongolian and the New Zealand (etc.) governments should just have told their entire populations to self-isolate and that would have done the trick. No need for all that pesky effort.
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Old 23rd May 2020, 11:36 AM   #839
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
Couldn't anyone who had serious health concerns have voluntarily self-isolated?

It's not like Sweden forced the high-risk demographics to go out and kiss people and touch stuff.

Wear a mask, bring a bottle of hand sanitizer when you go shopping. Don't dine out for a while. Skip the summer festival this year. Stream your movies for a while. Etc.

Was the Swedish government's mistake that they didn't realize their citizens were too stupid to be trusted with their own lives for six months?
Recent history does suggest that a significant number of people are too stupid to be trusted with their own lives for even three months, although I hoped better for countries other than the USA (wherein the situation is exacerbated by the highest level of government dismissing the danger and egging on people to violate the rules devised by public health officials). An even higher percent of people appear to be too stupid, or too self absorbed and self pitying, to be trusted with other people’s lives.

But I gather you were focusing your comment on the high risk groups who you feel should be able to self-isolate even as the larger society continues in a relatively open manner, presumably until the epidemic burns out. It is my understanding that this was exactly Sweden’s plan and it obviously didn’t work. Particularly notable are the huge deaths rates in old age homes, etc.

In practice it is very hard for the aged and many other high risk groups (the chronically ill, etc.) to self isolate, or even be isolated under the supervision of others. They need helpers and support people. These helpers have their own lives outside the “containment” and are the vectors by which the disease breeches the isolation and kills these vulnerable individuals. Typically there aren’t even enough tests to screen these staff members for infection once, let alone daily.

As you know the same has happened throughout the USA and many other countries. It also happens outside formal facilities; many older people live with younger family members who have jobs, etc. It is pretty hard to isolate yourself from someone you share a kitchen, living room, and bath with; it’s not just a matter of not going to summer festival. In practice one can’t truly isolate the aged from the rest of society.

Last edited by Giordano; 23rd May 2020 at 11:55 AM.
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Old 23rd May 2020, 11:49 AM   #840
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post

Was the Swedish government's mistake that they didn't realize their citizens were too stupid to be trusted with their own lives for six months?
Just look at the help spread the virus rallies, won't wear a mask idiots, and let's all gather up in bars, restaurants, and church morons. And these are in shelter at home states where they were told not to be dumbasses.
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