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Tags Coronavirus , Sweden incidents , Sweden issues

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Old 16th October 2020, 02:27 AM   #2521
dann
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Originally Posted by uke2se View Post
It is only here at this forum, by you and Dann that I hear about the psychopathy of Anders Tegnell et al, and given what I see every day, I do not agree with what you are saying.

If I have some time this afternoon, I will give you and the others an impression of Tegnell's behavior at press briefings about the pandemic. With several quotations, as usual. I think the Swedish media are beginning to catch on to him, but I think it takes courage to go up against him and Swedish consensus culture.
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"The abolition of religion as the illusory happiness of the people is required for their real happiness. The demand to give up the illusion about its condition is the demand to give up a condition which needs illusions." K. Marx
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Old 16th October 2020, 03:05 AM   #2522
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Originally Posted by uke2se View Post
It's possible. I'm not in denial. I am working with the facts I have at hand.

I live in Sweden and am inundated by Swedish media and politicians and scientists through media. It is only here at this forum, by you and Dann that I hear about the psychopathy of Anders Tegnell et al, and given what I see every day, I do not agree with what you are saying.
I’m saying Sweden’s management of the pandemic has been a disastrous failure. The infection and death rates are evidence of that. If you think otherwise the onus is on you. And saying “but I’m happy” won’t cut it.
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Old 16th October 2020, 03:49 AM   #2523
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Originally Posted by uke2se View Post
It's possible. I'm not in denial. I am working with the facts I have at hand.

I live in Sweden and am inundated by Swedish media and politicians and scientists through media. It is only here at this forum, by you and Dann that I hear about the psychopathy of Anders Tegnell et al, and given what I see every day, I do not agree with what you are saying.

The language used by Dann in respect of senior Swedish Government figures does, on occasion, tend towards hyperbole. That, however, does not mean that he's incorrect about the efficacy of the Swedish response.


Let's take this as an example:


https://www.statista.com/statistics/...pe-by-country/

Health Warning: I've not fact-checked the data interrogation. Differences in recording causes of death, for example, vary from country to country.

Of course it's hardly a glowing endorsement of, amongst others, the UK. But the Westiminster Government's exceptionbally poor handling is the stuff of endless daily press coverage and public criticism.
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Old 16th October 2020, 05:08 AM   #2524
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Originally Posted by Architect View Post
The language used by Dann in respect of senior Swedish Government figures does, on occasion, tend towards hyperbole. That, however, does not mean that he's incorrect about the efficacy of the Swedish response.


Let's take this as an example:

https://www.statista.com/statistics/...pe-by-country/

Health Warning: I've not fact-checked the data interrogation. Differences in recording causes of death, for example, vary from country to country.

Of course it's hardly a glowing endorsement of, amongst others, the UK. But the Westiminster Government's exceptionbally poor handling is the stuff of endless daily press coverage and public criticism.
I'm sorry, but I don't think it's that easy to make a judgement about the response to an ongoing situation. As it is right now, we are no worse off than anyone else (with a few notable exceptions: good on ya, Aussies and Kiwis), and we also aren't suffering from lockdown fatigue. I can see the benefits of doing what our leaders have decided, and I don't see any pressing reason for why to change course now, especially when things appear to be working. If we go back to a situation where thousands of people in old-folks homes start dying again I will reconsider.
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Old 16th October 2020, 07:26 AM   #2525
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You will reconsider if thousands of people start dying again?!
You seem to be blissfully unaware that if thousands of people start dying again, it will be much too late to save those thousands of lives, just as it is impossible now to save the 5,918 who have already died.

I am surprised that you think that Swedes "are no worse off than anyone else", but I am even more surprised that you need to go to the other side of the Earth to find the exceptions. It would be much more obvious to look at the two countries Sweden shares borders with, Norway and Finland.

And as for your lack of Sweden's freedom from "lockdown fatigue", it might have sounded much more credible if you hadn't already mentioned that you will "concentrate on hunkering down and making the best of the situation" while you are waiting for the "reckoning". (post 2482)
There are many countries with lockdowns where people haven't suffered much fatigue, but it seems to be possible to suffer pandemic fatigue in countries without lockdowns, too:
Quote:
"A certain fatigue is setting in, this has been going on for a number of months," said Carlson. "But we are not seeing anger or aggression, we're not seeing the same reactions as in Europe."
Sweden's coronavirus measures could remain in place for 'at least another year' (TheLocal.se, Oct. 5, 2020)

The "same reactions as in Europe" is nothing but Swedish cherry picking. People in many countries in Europe see much less "anger and aggression" than Sweden does, but it appears to be essential for Swedish nationalism to stay in denial of the fact.
It's the one thing you share with Clutch Cargo, in spite of all your differences.
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"The abolition of religion as the illusory happiness of the people is required for their real happiness. The demand to give up the illusion about its condition is the demand to give up a condition which needs illusions." K. Marx
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Old 16th October 2020, 07:37 AM   #2526
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Originally Posted by Architect View Post
The language used by Dann in respect of senior Swedish Government figures does, on occasion, tend towards hyperbole.

I don't think it's hyperbole when I am talking about Tegnell and Giesecke. Do you want to see hyperbole?

Opsigtsvækkende udtalelse fra Tegnell: 'Ikke farligere end at gå over et fodgængerfelt' (BT, Oct. 16, 2020)
Sensational statement from Tegnell: ’No more dangerous than crossing the road in a crosswalk’

I guess at this point of his many press briefings and interviews, he has used up the comparison with influenza. I have no idea how many Swedish pedestrians are killed in crosswalks, but I think it takes at least a century to kill 6,000 of them.
Hur många personer dödas årligen i trafiken i Sverige?
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"Stupidity renders itself invisible by assuming very large proportions. Completely unreasonable claims are irrefutable. Ni-en-leh pointed out that a philosopher might get into trouble by claiming that two times two makes five, but he does not risk much by claiming that two times two makes shoe polish." B. Brecht
"The abolition of religion as the illusory happiness of the people is required for their real happiness. The demand to give up the illusion about its condition is the demand to give up a condition which needs illusions." K. Marx
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Old 16th October 2020, 07:49 AM   #2527
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Referring to someone as being is some manner a psychopath, or a similar adjective for their strategy, would tend towards hyperbole I'm afraid. Don't go all "Ace of Base" on me.1










1. When interviewed on BBC Radio 1 in 1993 about their song "All that she wants is another baby", the Swedish band tried to argue about the meaning and context of the term "baby" in that sentence meaning boyfriend with people who's first language was English. It was a hoot. Linn and Jenny both up their own beam ends bigtime.
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Old 16th October 2020, 10:06 AM   #2528
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I am familiar with Ace of Base and their Swenglish lyrics.

Tegnell and Giesecke are like Trump with a science degree, and the Swedish establishment is like the GOP. The history of pandemics will be hard on them, but unlike uke2se, I don't take comfort in the idea of a reckoning. There is still much that can be done to prevent further deaths caused by the Swedish strategy - in Sweden as well as in the countries inspired by Sweden's (apparent) success story.

Did you read the article?
The Swedish COVID-19 Response Is a Disaster. It Shouldn’t Be a Model for the Rest of the World (Time, Oct. 14, 2020)
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"Stupidity renders itself invisible by assuming very large proportions. Completely unreasonable claims are irrefutable. Ni-en-leh pointed out that a philosopher might get into trouble by claiming that two times two makes five, but he does not risk much by claiming that two times two makes shoe polish." B. Brecht
"The abolition of religion as the illusory happiness of the people is required for their real happiness. The demand to give up the illusion about its condition is the demand to give up a condition which needs illusions." K. Marx
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Old 16th October 2020, 02:49 PM   #2529
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As a comparison to Sweden, my state of Victoria (6.5m) reached a peak of 700 infections a day in early August. Yesterday it was 2, today 1 ( with one reclassified, so net zero).

How did we do this? Hard lockdown, 5 km restrictions on permitted movement, large scale testing and contact tracing. We will be opening up cautiously tomorrow, and more again the week later.

Responsible government works.
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Old 16th October 2020, 06:19 PM   #2530
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Dunno if Victoria is much to boast about.
While it’s mortality rate per capital of 122 / million is certainly less than Sweden’s 580 (475% worse than Victoria),
it is 2628% worse than the rest of Australia’s states combined (4.64) and accounts for 90% of the deaths in Australia.
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Old 16th October 2020, 07:58 PM   #2531
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Originally Posted by EHocking View Post
Dunno if Victoria is much to boast about.
While it’s mortality rate per capital of 122 / million is certainly less than Sweden’s 580 (475% worse than Victoria),
it is 2628% worse than the rest of Australia’s states combined (4.64) and accounts for 90% of the deaths in Australia.
I think that's the entire point. Victoria got hit really hard when the virus escaped isolation and it ran rampant, creating a lot of cases per day, and making the number of deaths spike. But they have managed to bring it under control and stop it by taking the appropriate actions. It shows that it's actually possible to control it. If there is a political will to do so.
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Old 16th October 2020, 08:14 PM   #2532
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Originally Posted by PhantomWolf View Post
I think that's the entire point. Victoria got hit really hard when the virus escaped isolation and it ran rampant, creating a lot of cases per day, and making the number of deaths spike. But they have managed to bring it under control and stop it by taking the appropriate actions. It shows that it's actually possible to control it. If there is a political will to do so.
Demonstrated by all other states except for Victoria. Total deaths went from 100 or so in July to over 900 now.

Deaths. Victoria’s per capital death rate is over 26 x that of all other states combined. Nothing to brag about. That second wave that dwarfs the country’s initial outbreak is mostly due to a government cock-up of their mandated and run hotel quarantine.

COVID response in Australia is like the Spice Girls.
Victoria ruined it for everyone.
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Old 16th October 2020, 08:24 PM   #2533
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Exclamation

WHO Coronavirus Disease (COVID-19)

Data last updated: 2020/10/16, 4:11pm CES

Newly reported cases in the last 24 hours:

U.S. 59,106
Australia 21
Sweden 0
Denmark 430
New Zealand 4

Interesting this! The U.S. has gone up by nearly 20,000 cases. Australia is fairly steady by yesterday’s tally. New Zealand has doubled – so much for “eliminating” the virus in that county. Denmark doubled its new cases yesterday and today continues with that double figure trend – that is to say that Denmark is increasing its percentages by leaps and bounds in new cases of Corona virus. Sweden is the only country turning in zero new cases as it has done day after day. Now that’s what is called “elimination” ….. if you believe in such things

It is certainly true that Sweden is being questioned about its ethics in reporting new cases but let’s face it, the media outside of WHO all have political investments/benefactors and if you rely upon those then you are without doubt a victim of political propaganda. The fact is that there is no reliable source for “the whole picture” so upholding one source over another one is simply fooling oneself and picking whatever suits your own, personal agenda and prejudices. That’s OK as long as you don’t convince yourself that you’ve got “insight”. You don’t. This is particularly true when making comments about the personal character and mental state of responsible authorities. You know nothing about them at all (other than what you’ve read in some rag) and anyone claiming that he/she does have "insight" is merely providing a window into his/her own weakness of character.
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Old 16th October 2020, 09:24 PM   #2534
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Friday:
Coronavirus - countries (Worldometers, Oct. 16, 2020)
Deaths per million (Total deaths) New cases Serious/Critical
Sweden: 585 (5,918) 793* 30 *according to SVT.se. No new Swedish numbers Saturday to Monday.
Denmark: 117 (677) 418 16
Finland: 63 (351) 189 6
Norway: 51 (278) 136 5
Iceland: 32 (11*) 92 4 *Iceland had one Covid-19 death today; the first one in months, I think. With the small population of Iceland, this means that it jumps from 29 to 32 Covid-19 deaths per million.
Iceland has 1,205 active cases, Faroe Islands 11, New Zealand 42.
The Faroe Islands have 80 in quarantine, 0 hospitalized.
Two new Covid cases (KVF.fo, Oct. 16, 2020) [/quote]
Nurses to go on strike next week (KVF.fo, Oct. 15, 2020)
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Old 16th October 2020, 09:44 PM   #2535
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Originally Posted by dann View Post
Friday:
Coronavirus - countries (Worldometers, Oct. 16, 2020)
Deaths per million (Total deaths) New cases Serious/Critical
Sweden: 585 (5,918) 793* 30 *according to SVT.se. No new Swedish numbers Saturday to Monday.
Denmark: 117 (677) 418 16

Uuuuhm, in new cases per million those are 77 (793/10.3) for Sweden and 72 (418/5.8) for Denmark. The difference doesn't seem to justify hating on your neighbours. Let alone shutting down society and forcing everybody to wear a face diaper or other such inanities.
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Old 16th October 2020, 10:01 PM   #2536
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Originally Posted by EHocking View Post
Dunno if Victoria is much to boast about.
While it’s mortality rate per capita of 122 / million is certainly less than Sweden’s 580 (475% worse than Victoria),
it is 2628% worse than the rest of Australia’s states combined (4.64) and accounts for 90% of the deaths in Australia.

That is still quite an accomplishment from a European perspective. Victoria has approximately the same population density as Sweden.

Originally Posted by EHocking View Post
Demonstrated by all other states except for Victoria. Total deaths went from 100 or so in July to over 900 now.

Deaths. Victoria’s per capita death rate is over 26 x that of all other states combined. Nothing to brag about. That second wave that dwarfs the country’s initial outbreak is mostly due to a government cock-up of their mandated and run hotel quarantine.

COVID response in Australia is like the Spice Girls.
Victoria ruined it for everyone.

Australia's per capita death rate is only slightly higher than Iceland's where the second wave was started by two French tourists disobeying quarantine rules. What exactly set it off in Australia?
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"Stupidity renders itself invisible by assuming very large proportions. Completely unreasonable claims are irrefutable. Ni-en-leh pointed out that a philosopher might get into trouble by claiming that two times two makes five, but he does not risk much by claiming that two times two makes shoe polish." B. Brecht
"The abolition of religion as the illusory happiness of the people is required for their real happiness. The demand to give up the illusion about its condition is the demand to give up a condition which needs illusions." K. Marx
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Old 16th October 2020, 10:22 PM   #2537
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Come on dann, calm down and stop "hiliting". In Germany we have 51 new cases per million (4254/83) and even that - you uttered that the German approach is the role model - is in the same range as your Scandinavian numbers. Cannot justify the totalitarian measures. Sweden, not going that road, has been right as it is in the same "raw numbers" position as Denmark right now, but hasn't destroyed their middle class.
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Old 16th October 2020, 10:38 PM   #2538
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Originally Posted by EHocking View Post
Demonstrated by all other states except for Victoria. Total deaths went from 100 or so in July to over 900 now.

Deaths. Victoria’s per capital death rate is over 26 x that of all other states combined. Nothing to brag about. That second wave that dwarfs the country’s initial outbreak is mostly due to a government cock-up of their mandated and run hotel quarantine.

COVID response in Australia is like the Spice Girls.
Victoria ruined it for everyone.
Don’t speak too soon. NSW has eased hospitality restrictions which were mainly ignored anyway. Demographics are roughly the same, so infections will rise, maybe not to the level of Victoria, where the wave came in winter, but rise they will.

Anyway, that is pretty much irrelevant. Show me other nations or regions which have seen a large and growing second wave and brought it down to close to zero in less than 3 months. Yes mistakes were made with quarantine and a small number of super spreaders kicked things off. Since then Andrews has shown outstanding leadership.

This reminds me of, when someone talks about heroic acts of soldiers in war, someone else far removed from the action says “big deal, the wars were illegal/shouldn’t have happened/are evil” Pointless, irrelevant and pretty insulting.
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Old 16th October 2020, 10:40 PM   #2539
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Originally Posted by Childlike Empress View Post
Uuuuhm, in new cases per million those are 77 (793/10.3) for Sweden and 72 (418/5.8) for Denmark. The difference doesn't seem to justify hating on your neighbours. Let alone shutting down society and forcing everybody to wear a face diaper or other such inanities.

The face-mask policy in Sweden is actually interesting:

Quote:
Sweden actually recommends against masks everywhere except in places where health care workers are treating COVID-19 patients (some regions expand that to health care workers treating suspected patients as well).
(...)
All of this creates a situation which leaves teachers, bus drivers, medical workers and care home staff more exposed, without face masks at a time when the rest of the world is clearly endorsing widespread mask wearing.
On Aug. 13, Tegnell said that to recommend masks to the public “quite a lot of resources are required. There is quite a lot of money that would be spent if you are going to have masks.”
(...)
Swedavia, the owner of the country’s largest airport, Stockholm Arlanda, told employees during the spring and early summer they could not wear masks or gloves to work. One employee told Upsala Nya Tidning newspaper on Aug. 24 “Many of us were sick during the beginning of the pandemic and two colleagues have died due to the virus. I would estimate that 60%-80% of the staff at the security checks have had the infection.”
“Our union representatives fought for us to have masks at work,” the employee said, “but the airport’s response was that we were an authority that would not spread fear, but we would show that the virus was not so dangerous.” Swedavia’s reply was that they had introduced the infection control measures recommended by the authorities. On July 1, the company changed its policy, recommending masks for everyone who comes to Arlanda—that, according to a Swedavia spokesperson, was not as a result of “an infection control measure advocated by Swedish authorities,” but rather, due to a joint European Union Aviation Safety Agency and ECDC recommendation for all of Europe.
The Swedish COVID-19 Response Is a Disaster. It Shouldn’t Be a Model for the Rest of the World (Time, Oct. 14, 2020)

So freedom-loving, lax Sweden forbids its workers to use face masks because it will rather spread the virus than allow people to use PPE to avoid it.
Not only does Sweden advise against the use of face masks in Sweden, apparently because the country can't afford them, but Anders Tegnell has also been busy lobbying against other countries recommending them:

Quote:
In an email on April 5, Tegnell wrote to Mike Catchpole, the chief scientist at the European Center for Disease Control and Prevention (ECDC): “We are quite worried about the statement ECDC has been preparing about masks.” Tegnell attached a document in which he expresses concern that ECDC recommending facemasks would “imply that the spread is airborne which would seriously harm further communication and trust among the population and health care workers” and concludes “we would like to warn against the publication of this advice.”

The virus is airborne and the ECDC did recommend face masks on April 8. (So kudos for not listening to Anders Tegnell.) It took WHO two months more to get to that point, and I wonder if Tegnell and Giesecke's lobbying had anything to do with the delay.
In Sweden, plenty of hand washing is still considered to be the best way to prevent the transmission of an airborne virus. Hand washing is much cheaper than face masks, I guess.
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"Stupidity renders itself invisible by assuming very large proportions. Completely unreasonable claims are irrefutable. Ni-en-leh pointed out that a philosopher might get into trouble by claiming that two times two makes five, but he does not risk much by claiming that two times two makes shoe polish." B. Brecht
"The abolition of religion as the illusory happiness of the people is required for their real happiness. The demand to give up the illusion about its condition is the demand to give up a condition which needs illusions." K. Marx

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Old 17th October 2020, 01:09 AM   #2540
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A rational pandemic response is very popular: It’s early, but we’re calling it: Jacinda Ardern will lead the next government (Spinoff.co.nz, Oct. 17, 2020)

Whereas, treating the virus as a "psychosis" doesn't seem to be trending: Belarus protests: Police authorised to use lethal weapons (BBC, Oct. 13, 2020)
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"Stupidity renders itself invisible by assuming very large proportions. Completely unreasonable claims are irrefutable. Ni-en-leh pointed out that a philosopher might get into trouble by claiming that two times two makes five, but he does not risk much by claiming that two times two makes shoe polish." B. Brecht
"The abolition of religion as the illusory happiness of the people is required for their real happiness. The demand to give up the illusion about its condition is the demand to give up a condition which needs illusions." K. Marx
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Old 17th October 2020, 01:25 AM   #2541
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Quoting the BBC on Belarus is like quoting Denial Ferguson on what will happen with "Corona".

We all noticed how you tried to dodge the fact that Denmark is now on par with Sweden, dann.
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Old 17th October 2020, 03:29 AM   #2542
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Originally Posted by EHocking View Post
COVID response in Australia is like the Spice Girls.
Victoria ruined it for everyone.
...this is a simplistic way to look at things. Simplistic to the point of ridiculous. Its a global pandemic. I think Victoria made mistakes early after the outbreak. And the thing about making a mistake in the face of a global pandemic is that you just can't simply turn back the clock. Cases grow exponentially. If you let it get away from you you have to catch up to it first before you begin to scale it back. That's just how it works. And we see that happening in many places all over the world.

What Victoria managed to do was remarkable and to bring the rate back as they did is a testament to the hard work done by the people in the frontlines. You can't accidentally go from 700 cases a day to 2 cases per day. It was a result of strategy, persistence, and hard work of both the authorities and the people of Victoria.

This isn't a game. It isn't a competition. Victoria didn't ruin it for everyone. Its a global pandemic and people are dying. Victoria should be applauded for following the science and bringing the outbreak under control.
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Old 17th October 2020, 06:58 AM   #2543
dann
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Originally Posted by Childlike Empress View Post
We all noticed how you tried to dodge the fact that Denmark is now on par with Sweden, dann.

You are the one who didn't notice that Denmark passed Sweden in new cases a few weeks ago. I post the numbers every day, so I don't miss much and don't have to dodge anything or pretend that things are better than they are.

You also seem to have missed the point that the Swedish establishment went against the unions when they wanted their members be protected from the virus, banning the use of face masks and other PPE for the protection of workers because they didn't want them to spread fear at the airport.

I guess the sentiment of upper-class Swedes is more important than the health and lives of the working classes. Keeping up appearances is so much more in line with Swedish consensus culture than acknowledging the threat of a virus running rampant through the population. And what would foreigners think when they arrived at the airport and saw airport staff wearing face masks?! It would have ruined the image Sweden was (and still is) trying to make the rest of the world believe in.
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Old 17th October 2020, 03:04 PM   #2544
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Regarding the effectiveness of hard lockdowns, these figures are worth contemplating:

Late July
France 1377
UK 846
Victoria 723

Now
France 25086
UK 15650
Victoria 1

Pretty straightforward.
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Old 17th October 2020, 03:10 PM   #2545
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Originally Posted by lionking View Post
Regarding the effectiveness of hard lockdowns, these figures are worth contemplating:

Late July
France 1377
UK 846
Victoria 723

Now
France 25086
UK 15650
Victoria 1

Pretty straightforward.
I am surprised NSW has a different strategy.
Australia can eliminate now, has vast natural wealth to back any strategy. My guess is equivalence with NZ by christmas and a patient wait for a vaccine.

The UK can envy their penal colony from which they are barred.

Last edited by Samson; 17th October 2020 at 03:11 PM.
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Old 17th October 2020, 04:30 PM   #2546
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Originally Posted by banquetbear View Post
...this is a simplistic way to look at things. Simplistic to the point of ridiculous. Its a global pandemic. I think Victoria made mistakes early after the outbreak. And the thing about making a mistake in the face of a global pandemic is that you just can't simply turn back the clock. Cases grow exponentially. If you let it get away from you you have to catch up to it first before you begin to scale it back. That's just how it works. And we see that happening in many places all over the world.

What Victoria managed to do was remarkable and to bring the rate back as they did is a testament to the hard work done by the people in the frontlines. You can't accidentally go from 700 cases a day to 2 cases per day. It was a result of strategy, persistence, and hard work of both the authorities and the people of Victoria.

This isn't a game. It isn't a competition. Victoria didn't ruin it for everyone. Its a global pandemic and people are dying. Victoria should be applauded for following the science and bringing the outbreak under control.
It was a joke, Joyce.
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Old 17th October 2020, 04:58 PM   #2547
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Originally Posted by EHocking View Post
It was a joke, Joyce.
Okay. It just didn’t read like a joke.
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Old 17th October 2020, 05:02 PM   #2548
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Originally Posted by lionking View Post
Okay. It just didn’t read like a joke.
The Spice Girls part, which was all that was quoted, was a joke.

The rest of what occurred in Victoria was not.
My original post was to point out the absurdity of praising a gov response to an absolute disaster of their own making that killed hundreds.
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Old 17th October 2020, 05:16 PM   #2549
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Originally Posted by EHocking View Post
The rest of what occurred in Victoria was not.
My original post was to point out the absurdity of praising a gov response to an absolute disaster of their own making that killed hundreds.
Nonsense.

What I’m praising is how this wave has been managed and controlled. It is not absurd to praise this. We are now coming out of lockdown.
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Old 17th October 2020, 07:07 PM   #2550
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Originally Posted by lionking View Post
Nonsense.

What I’m praising is how this wave has been managed and controlled. It is not absurd to praise this. We are now coming out of lockdown.
It is as absurd as praising the arsonist who started the fire because he also helped put it out.

They did such a great job of "managing and controlling" COVID, that there is an inquiry into just how well they did.
So good that it cost the state's Health Minister her job as well as the Premier's chief Sir Humphrey, Department of Premier and Cabinet secretary Chris Eccles, his job as well.

ETA : and lets not forget the current mortality rate in Victoria. So well managed that it is 26 times the per capita deaths of all other states combined.
That management and control is worthy of anyone's praise.
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Old 17th October 2020, 07:45 PM   #2551
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Originally Posted by dann View Post
You are the one who didn't notice that Denmark passed Sweden in new cases a few weeks ago. I post the numbers every day, so I don't miss much and don't have to dodge anything or pretend that things are better than they are.

Yes, apparently I failed to notice that over Clutch Cargo's amusing stunt. So what is the remaining point here? It doesn't seem like you've changed your mind on the "strategy", in fact you are very much still hating on "Tegnell" and the Swedish sense of community. Why?
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Old 17th October 2020, 09:13 PM   #2552
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Originally Posted by EHocking View Post
It is as absurd as praising the arsonist who started the fire because he also helped put it out.

They did such a great job of "managing and controlling" COVID, that there is an inquiry into just how well they did.
So good that it cost the state's Health Minister her job as well as the Premier's chief Sir Humphrey, Department of Premier and Cabinet secretary Chris Eccles, his job as well.

ETA : and lets not forget the current mortality rate in Victoria. So well managed that it is 26 times the per capita deaths of all other states combined.
That management and control is worthy of anyone's praise.
Yes, I can see it’s far too hard for you to acknowledge how Victoria has brought down infections so remarkably well. Never mind. Thankfully you are in a very small group, mainly made up of followers of Sky News and sovereign citizens. Enjoy the company.
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Old 17th October 2020, 09:27 PM   #2553
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Exclamation

WHO Coronavirus Disease (COVID-19)

Data last updated: 2020/10/17, 7:43pm CEST

Newly reported cases in the last 24 hours:

U.S. 63,044
Australia 9
Sweden 0
Denmark 418
New Zealand 3

The U.S. has increased in new cases by 4,000: Ouch.
Australia has decreased by 12: Bravo!
New Zealand dropped by one.
Sweden maintains its zero or “eliminated” status: No surprise.
Denmark decreased by only 22 yet is still double its figure from last week: Ouch!

So, once again, Denmark is the biggest loser. It’s actually a phenomenon that Denmark can implement so many restrictions yet still be no better off than Sweden - taking into account Sweden’s more realistic percentages. How can that be? Are the restrictions themselves the reason? Are Denmark’s measures actually causing the doubling of their new cases of Corona virus? I don’t believe that. There must be a more realistic reason on why Denmark has doubled its tally of Corona virus. I heard someone say that Danish authorities are ******* psychopaths who don’t take their professional obligations seriously. Hmm. There is enough such trash talk as is the hyperbolic statement that Sweden has outlawed the use of face masks. A bold-faced lie. It doesn’t matter where you live in the world it must be obvious by way of sheer logic and instinct that it is a lie. Rather than dwell on these childish diversions it would be more prudent to to discover the reason behind Denmark's utter failure AFTER it introduced restrictions. Maybe it isn’t true? Perhaps Denmark has simply been compelled to report its actual figures that previously were being held out of public view?
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Old 17th October 2020, 11:22 PM   #2554
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Saturday:
Coronavirus - countries (Worldometers, Oct. 17, 2020)
Deaths per million (Total deaths) New cases Serious/Critical
Sweden: 585 (5,918) 793* 30 *according to SVT.se. No new Swedish numbers till Tuesday.
Denmark: 117 (679) 500 16
Finland: 63 (351) 160 6
Norway: 51 (278) 97 5
Iceland: 32 (11) 69 4
Iceland has 1,242 active cases, Faroe Islands 11, New Zealand 40.
The Faroe Islands have 69 in quarantine, 0 hospitalized.

If you look at the death toll, it becomes strikingly obvious that elimination is the most effective strategy. Of the five Nordic countries, Iceland has only 11 per-capita deaths.

In the countries following the Hammer & the Dance strategy, i.e. lockdown followed by TeTrIs and low-level restrictions whenever/wherever the spread is on the verge of getting out of hand, the death toll is horrendous in comparison to Iceland's: DK 679, FIN 351, N 278.

Only a comparison with the one country on this list that is now reluctantly giving up on the herd immunity strategy makes the Hammer & the Dance seem worthwhile: S: 5,918.

I don't include the death toll of New Zealand and the Faroe Islands on a daily basis because the numbers hardly ever change, which makes the number of active cases more relevant, but for the sake of the comparison of the three strategies, elimination, the Hammer & the Dance and herd immunity:
NZ: 25 (5)
FO: 0 (0)
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Last edited by dann; 18th October 2020 at 12:08 AM.
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Old 17th October 2020, 11:34 PM   #2555
dann
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Originally Posted by Childlike Empress View Post
It doesn't seem like you've changed your mind on the "strategy", in fact you are very much still hating on "Tegnell" and the Swedish sense of community. Why?

No, I haven't changed my mind. I am 'hating on' the herd-immunity strategy and its architect Tegnell, who is a real person and doesn't need the "", because the Swedish COVID-19 Response Is a Disaster. That it also never lived up to its own declared intentions is something that I pointed out to Gavin and Tippit several times, but even if it had managed to do so, it would have been a disaster. Not even its intentions were any good.
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"Stupidity renders itself invisible by assuming very large proportions. Completely unreasonable claims are irrefutable. Ni-en-leh pointed out that a philosopher might get into trouble by claiming that two times two makes five, but he does not risk much by claiming that two times two makes shoe polish." B. Brecht
"The abolition of religion as the illusory happiness of the people is required for their real happiness. The demand to give up the illusion about its condition is the demand to give up a condition which needs illusions." K. Marx

Last edited by dann; 18th October 2020 at 12:06 AM.
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Old 17th October 2020, 11:58 PM   #2556
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Originally Posted by Clutch Cargo View Post
And still nobody really knows much about the virus. It's all guess-work from one day to the next. "Experts" running around like chickens with their heads cut off and starting each sentence with, "Well, basically ......" even though their basis shifts from one end to the other - isolation or exposure? They don't know for sure but they pretend to have the situation well in hand.

Since this particular problem seems to be a mixture of nationalism and Dunning-Kruger, these articles are mainly for CC's benefit:

Quote:
När samma ämnen diskuteras om och om igen kan det vara viktigt att påminnas om hur mycket vi lärt oss om covid-19. Men det finns viktiga frågor som fortfarande behöver svar.
Detta vet vi om covid-19 – och dessa frågor behöver vis svar på (DagensNyheter.se, Oct. 17, 2020)
When the same questions are discussed again and again, it may be important to remember how much we have learned about Covid-19. But there are questions that still need to be answered.
This is what we know about Covid-19 – and these are the questions that we still need answers to.

Quote:
Ett sätt att möta en annalkande corona-vinter kan vara att lära sig mer om det mänskliga psyket. För även om vi aldrig har gjort det här förut så har forskarna nu haft en del tid att studera vad som fungerar även för själsliga virus.
Diagnosen för Sverige – en dos av förnekelse (SvenskaDagbladet.se, Oct. 17, 2020)
One way to face an approaching corona winter may be to learn more about the human psyche. Because even though we have never done this before, researchers have now had some time to study what works even for viruses of the soul.
The diagnosis for Sweden - a dose of denial
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"Stupidity renders itself invisible by assuming very large proportions. Completely unreasonable claims are irrefutable. Ni-en-leh pointed out that a philosopher might get into trouble by claiming that two times two makes five, but he does not risk much by claiming that two times two makes shoe polish." B. Brecht
"The abolition of religion as the illusory happiness of the people is required for their real happiness. The demand to give up the illusion about its condition is the demand to give up a condition which needs illusions." K. Marx
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Old 18th October 2020, 12:05 AM   #2557
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101 minkfarme ramt af coronasmitte (BT.dk, Oct. 16, 2020 – 14:21) [/quote]
101 mink farms infected with coronavirus And another 32 are suspected.

Coronavirus could drive the last nail into the mink fur trade (CNN, Oct, 18, 2020)
About the contagion of mink farms in Denmark and the rest of the world.
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"Stupidity renders itself invisible by assuming very large proportions. Completely unreasonable claims are irrefutable. Ni-en-leh pointed out that a philosopher might get into trouble by claiming that two times two makes five, but he does not risk much by claiming that two times two makes shoe polish." B. Brecht
"The abolition of religion as the illusory happiness of the people is required for their real happiness. The demand to give up the illusion about its condition is the demand to give up a condition which needs illusions." K. Marx
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Old 18th October 2020, 12:08 AM   #2558
Childlike Empress
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Originally Posted by dann View Post
No, I haven't changed my mind. I am 'hating on' the herd-immunity strategy and its architect Tegnell, who is a real person and doesn't need the "", because the Swedish COVID-19 Response Is a Disaster. That it also never lived up to its own declared intentions is something that I pointed out the Gavin and Tippit several times, but even if it had managed to do so, it would have been a disaster. Not even its intentions were any good.

You linking to your own ramblings doesn't make the Swedish situation a disaster. In fact it isn't a disaster. What is a disaster is your thread, dann. It is hateful and just wrong.
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Old 18th October 2020, 12:21 AM   #2559
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Originally Posted by Childlike Empress View Post
You linking to your own ramblings doesn't make the Swedish situation a disaster. In fact it isn't a disaster. What is a disaster is your thread, dann. It is hateful and just wrong accurate and science based.
FTFY.
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Old 18th October 2020, 02:13 AM   #2560
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Originally Posted by Clutch Cargo View Post
WHO Coronavirus Disease (COVID-19)

Data last updated: 2020/10/16, 4:11pm CES

Newly reported cases in the last 24 hours:

U.S. 59,106
Australia 21
Sweden 0
Denmark 430
New Zealand 4

Interesting this! The U.S. has gone up by nearly 20,000 cases. Australia is fairly steady by yesterday’s tally. New Zealand has doubled – so much for “eliminating” the virus in that county.
Now you are just being silly.

Why are you doing this? You know very well that Sweden's cases aren't anywhere near zero, that going from 2 to 4 cases is nothing in a population of 5 million, and that those are not even in the community but imports in quarantine.

New Zealand kindly lets their citizens come home from Covid-ravaged Europe and go into managed isolation at no charge, get excellent medical care if they were infected, and then become a part of New Zealand's Covid free community. And you respond with an insulting pack of lies that any child could see through.

Why are you continuing to be so transparently disingenuous? Are you trying to channel Trump?
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