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Tags Coronavirus , Sweden incidents , Sweden issues

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Old 21st November 2020, 01:59 AM   #2921
Vixen
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Originally Posted by dann View Post
This week, Stefan Löfven changed corona strategy – without mentioning it with a single word. No wonder: He would have been forced to openly disapprove of the measures taken in the spring.
The red-green pandemic response gave us a class society on speed
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Old 21st November 2020, 05:55 AM   #2922
dann
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Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
I even feel sorry for Tegnell as he is merely a political puppet who happens to have a relevant qualification which led to his appointment.

You shouldn't!
Quote:
Sweden remains steadfast in its strategy of voluntary measures and no lockdowns, the architect of its unorthodox COVID-19 response said on Friday, as the country battles a growing second wave of a disease that has now killed more than 6,000 Swedes.
(...)
“No, we will keep on this path,” Chief Epidemiologist Anders Tegnell told Reuters in a telephone interview on Friday. “This is how we work in Sweden. We have big understanding for this and a huge adherence to the rules.”
In contrast to many other countries, Sweden has kept schools, restaurants and other businesses open throughout the pandemic. Instead, it has focused on voluntary measures aimed at promoting social distancing and good hygiene, such as working from home if possible, avoiding public transport and crowded indoor activities.
Second wave, same strategy: Swedish COVID-19 czar defiant despite surge (Reuters, Nov. 14, 2020)

It is ironic that this all changed just three days later. Sweden didn't "keep on this path," there are lockdowns of all kinds of institutions in almost all regions of Sweden, and Tegnell wasn't there when it was announced. The "Swedish COVID-19 czar" appears to have been disavowed, and I guess the "t-shirts saying “In Tegnell we trust”" are about to disappear from the streets of Stockholm to be replaced by face masks.

But on Nov. 14, Tegnell was still clinging to his delusion that the rest of the world is adopting his strategy:
Quote:
“Most countries are now trying to do it a bit more like we have done in Sweden. Almost no one is closing schools now, for instance,” he said. “We have also learned a lot (from others), like doing targeted recommendations for different regions.”

And he may not have noticed, but the "different regions" were so unhappy with his "targeted recommendations" that they have decided to take matters into their own hands, and many schools are closing down because his delusion is obviously wrong: that children don't spread the virus.
Anders Tegnell is not a puppet, but the puppeteers have let him be the corona czar for much too long.

Quote:
As it becomes clear that a second wave of COVID-19 is hitting lockdown holdout Sweden hard, debate in the country has moved to a new question: Whose fault is it?
This week, blame flew in at least three directions.
Discontent rises in Sweden as coronavirus cases spike (Politico, Nov. 19, 2020)

Virologist and film maker Lena Einhorn about the Swedish strategy's "one voice":
Quote:
You've been very publicly opposed to your government's approach to the pandemic. Explain your opposition.
This has been a long story. The first couple of months, what they didn't do is prepare at all because they were sure this was not going to be a problem outside of Southeast Asia. So that was the first mistake, they didn't prepare with protective gear or with testing capacity. The second mistake came when it was obvious that this was going to hit us and the other countries around us went into lockdown and Sweden did not. People have gathered that they were really after herd immunity. They have denied it through one side of their mouth and through the other, they say it would be a "bonus" with herd immunity. The next phase is the summer when we had, you know, Sweden is a sparsely populated country, we have 25 people per square kilometer. We have long, solid vacations. And so the numbers went down dramatically from the beginning of July. It looked really good until about the middle of September, which was a few weeks after school started. They knew we didn't have herd immunity, but they were still sort of dragging their feet. And now, in the last few weeks, we've had a very dramatic, steep rise in cases. We have a steeper rise than the United States right now.
(...)
What has it been like to live in Sweden? In Stockholm, when you see that your fellow citizens are not implementing best practices?
People are people, you know, they follow their leaders. It's an unlucky combination of the very stubborn public health agency and the government that sort of obeys them largely. And so we've had only one voice and that voice has not been very wise — let's put it that way. So it's been very, very frustrating.
Sweden’s pivot toward new virus restrictions may not 'shift mindsets,' says Swedish scientist (PRI.org, Nov. 18, 2020)
Covid-19 in Sweden: Anders Tegnell got it wrong ... again!
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This is the website of scientific opposition to the Swedish strategy: Science Forum: COVID-19


ETA: PM Löfven is giving another speech about the pandemic tomorrow night: Statsminister Löfven håller tal till nationen (SVT.se, Nov. 21, 2020)
I don't know if there's a chance that it will have subtitles in English.
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"Stupidity renders itself invisible by assuming very large proportions. Completely unreasonable claims are irrefutable. Ni-en-leh pointed out that a philosopher might get into trouble by claiming that two times two makes five, but he does not risk much by claiming that two times two makes shoe polish." B. Brecht
"The abolition of religion as the illusory happiness of the people is required for their real happiness. The demand to give up the illusion about its condition is the demand to give up a condition which needs illusions." K. Marx

Last edited by dann; 21st November 2020 at 06:02 AM.
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Old 21st November 2020, 09:57 AM   #2923
dann
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Quote:
Retoriken om munskydd har tagit en märklig vändning i Sverige. I andra länder handlar det om att visa solidaritet, här har medborgare i stället fått det pedagogiska budskapet att svaga och oroliga kan bära mask om de vill, skriver professor Mona Holmqvist.
Debatten om effekten av munskyddsanvändning för att minska spridningen av covid-19 lever i allra högsta grad än i Sverige, trots WHO: s rekommendationer. När det dessutom finns forskning som indikerar att munskydd fungerar smittdämpande, i en tid då smittspridningen i vårt land eskalerar okontrollerat, blir det svårt att förstå att Sverige inte följer de globala rekommendationerna om användande av munskydd.
Särskilt anmärkningsvärt blir det när man ser trängseln i affärer och kollektivtrafiken. Alla kan inte avstå från att ta sig till sitt arbete, klara att handla via nätet eller välja tider då det är glest med folk. Man kan dessutom tro att vi i Sverige sitter på kunskap som ingen annan i övriga världen ännu upptäckt avseende munskyddets användande, eller är det enda land som har en strategi som grundas på vetenskap som visar att det inte hjälper.
”Hur kunde det gå så galet kring munskydd i Sverige?” (SvenskaDagbladet.se, Nov. 20, 2020)
The rhetoric about face masks has taken a peculiar turn in Sweden. In other countries, it is about showing solidarity, here citizens have instead received the educational message that the weak and anxious can wear a mask if they want to, writes Professor Mona Holmqvist.
The debate about the effect of face masks to reduce the spread of Covid-19 is very much alive in Sweden, despite WHO's recommendations. When there is also research that indicates that face masks help reduce infection at a time when the spread of infection in our country is escalating uncontrollably, it is difficult to understand why Sweden does not follow the global recommendations on the use of face masks.
It is especially remarkable when you see the crowding in shops and on public transport. Not everyone can refrain from going to work, not everyone can shop online or choose hours when shops are not crowded. You may begin to think that Sweden has access to knowledge about the use of face masks that no one else in the rest of the world has yet discovered, or that we are the only country with a strategy based on science that shows that face masks do not help.
”How could the question of face masks go so wrong in Sweden?”

Patienter slår larm: Coronasjuka blandas med andra på akuten (Aftonbladet.se, Nov. 20, 2020)
Patients sound the alarm: Corona patients are mixed with other patients at the emergency ward

Quote:
Luftburen covidsmitta är ingen obetydlig detalj. Tvärtom förändrar de nya rönen grundantagandena för de råd och rekommendationer som ges i Sverige. Beslutsfattarna måste ta höjd för det.
Luftburen smitta stjälper fundamenten för den svenska strategin (DagensNyheter.se, Nov. 21, 2020)
Airborne transmission of the infection is no unimportant detail. On the contrary, the new findings change the basic assumptions about the advice and recommendations given in Sweden. Decision-makers must take this into account. Airborne transmission undermines the foundations of the Swedish strategy.

Quote:
Folkhälsomyndighetens senaste mätning 14 november var talet 1.16 – att jämföra med 1.55 den första november.
R-talet sjunker i Sverige: ”Andra vågen växer än” (Expressen.se, Nov. 21, 2020)
The Public Health Agency’s most recent measure of the number on Nov. 14 was 1.16 – in comparison, it was 1.55 on Nov. 1.
The R0 is falling in Sweden: ”The second wave is still growing”

Considering how many problems Sweden has with testing right now, I don't think that there is reason to believe that the R0 has actually gone down.
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"Stupidity renders itself invisible by assuming very large proportions. Completely unreasonable claims are irrefutable. Ni-en-leh pointed out that a philosopher might get into trouble by claiming that two times two makes five, but he does not risk much by claiming that two times two makes shoe polish." B. Brecht
"The abolition of religion as the illusory happiness of the people is required for their real happiness. The demand to give up the illusion about its condition is the demand to give up a condition which needs illusions." K. Marx
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Old 21st November 2020, 10:27 AM   #2924
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Covid patients are not segregated from non-Covid patients? Really?

This is insane. The people facilitating this kind of imbecility should be tried as criminals and put in prison, wherever in the world they may be.
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Old 21st November 2020, 01:04 PM   #2925
dann
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Originally Posted by Chanakya View Post
Covid patients are not segregated from non-Covid patients? Really?

That is what the article describes:
Quote:
Patienter med och utan covid-19 blandas på akutmottagningen. – Det var katastrof. Det låg gamla och sköra människor i samma sal som de som hostade hela natten, säger Sara, 46.
Sofia, 36 hade varit sjuk i corona ett par dagar när hennes tillstånd försämrades. Trots det hänvisades hon till ett vanligt väntrum.
Patients with and without Covid-19 are mixed in the emergency room. - It was a disaster. There were old and fragile people in the same room as those who were coughing all night long, says Sara, 46.
Sofia, 36, had been ill with corona for a few days when her condition worsened. Despite this, she was referred to a regular waiting room.
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"Stupidity renders itself invisible by assuming very large proportions. Completely unreasonable claims are irrefutable. Ni-en-leh pointed out that a philosopher might get into trouble by claiming that two times two makes five, but he does not risk much by claiming that two times two makes shoe polish." B. Brecht
"The abolition of religion as the illusory happiness of the people is required for their real happiness. The demand to give up the illusion about its condition is the demand to give up a condition which needs illusions." K. Marx
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Old 21st November 2020, 02:04 PM   #2926
Samson
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The Australian media announce official capitulation in Sweden, thread subject answered?

https://www.nzherald.co.nz/world/cov...QGGXOT7WJOLSU/
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Old 21st November 2020, 02:08 PM   #2927
dann
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Sweden Sets Toughest Restrictions Yet as Covid Cases Soar, short video (5:36)
(Bloomberg News on YouTube, Nov. 17, 2020)
Quote:
Sweden resorted to its toughest restrictions yet to fight the coronavirus pandemic, after a spike in new cases led to a steady influx of infected people filling intensive care beds.
From Nov. 24, public gatherings of more than eight people will be banned, Prime Minister Stefan Lofven told reporters on Monday. He said the “unprecedented” response was needed if Sweden is to “curb transmission.”
“This is a very clear and strong signal to everyone in this country and to the entire society about what the rules are going forward,” Lofven said.
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Sweden’s ‘No Lockdown’ Approach To Pandemic Under Scrutiny As Cases Soar There, short video (2:38)
(NBC News on YouTube, Nov. 20, 2020)
Quote:
Sweden’s defiant “few rules and no lockdowns” approach to the coronavirus pandemic appears to be failing as its infection rate and death toll skyrocket. NBC chief global correspondent Bill Neely reports for TODAY.
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Notice the comments to this one. The Covid-19 deniers are enraged.
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"Stupidity renders itself invisible by assuming very large proportions. Completely unreasonable claims are irrefutable. Ni-en-leh pointed out that a philosopher might get into trouble by claiming that two times two makes five, but he does not risk much by claiming that two times two makes shoe polish." B. Brecht
"The abolition of religion as the illusory happiness of the people is required for their real happiness. The demand to give up the illusion about its condition is the demand to give up a condition which needs illusions." K. Marx

Last edited by dann; 21st November 2020 at 02:20 PM.
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Old 21st November 2020, 02:29 PM   #2928
dann
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Originally Posted by Samson View Post
The Australian media announce official capitulation in Sweden, thread subject answered?

https://www.nzherald.co.nz/world/cov...QGGXOT7WJOLSU/

Unfortunately, the article is wrong when it says that "With numbers exploding, Prime Minister Stefan Lofven has been forced to swallow his pride and admit that he got it wrong."
On the contrary, he claimed that the Swedish strategy was right, but the Swedes had stopped obeying orders, so they were to blame, not the strategy. See post 2891. (He conveniently forgot to mention how many people died in the spring when everything was allegedly going well.)
I doubt that Stefan Löfven or Anders Tegnell and the Public Health Agency are ever going to admit that they were wrong, but there's a new chance to do so tomorrow night.
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"Stupidity renders itself invisible by assuming very large proportions. Completely unreasonable claims are irrefutable. Ni-en-leh pointed out that a philosopher might get into trouble by claiming that two times two makes five, but he does not risk much by claiming that two times two makes shoe polish." B. Brecht
"The abolition of religion as the illusory happiness of the people is required for their real happiness. The demand to give up the illusion about its condition is the demand to give up a condition which needs illusions." K. Marx

Last edited by dann; 21st November 2020 at 02:34 PM.
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Old 21st November 2020, 03:04 PM   #2929
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Originally Posted by dann View Post
Notice the comments to this one. The Covid-19 deniers are enraged.
Enraged because they think it's fearmongering...
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Old 21st November 2020, 10:44 PM   #2930
Vixen
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Originally Posted by dann View Post
Sweden Sets Toughest Restrictions Yet as Covid Cases Soar, short video (5:36)
(Bloomberg News on YouTube, Nov. 17, 2020)


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Sweden’s ‘No Lockdown’ Approach To Pandemic Under Scrutiny As Cases Soar There, short video (2:38)
(NBC News on YouTube, Nov. 20, 2020)


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Notice the comments to this one. The Covid-19 deniers are enraged.
So the Swedes think dealing with a highly contagious disease (x 7 than for flu) is 'an experiment'?


Quote:
Carrie Caldwell
1 day ago
People are adults and know what’s going on. They can make up their own minds.

Is this defiance or denial? I presume these rebels have grandparents...?

The mind boggles. I have a friend who informs me regularly 'It is all a hoax!'

What kind of a hoax would that be?
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Old 21st November 2020, 10:55 PM   #2931
dann
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Saturday:
Coronavirus - countries (Worldometers, Nov. 21, 2020)
Deaths per million (Total deaths) New cases Serious/Critical
Sweden: 633 (6,406) 7,240* 182* **According to SVT.se
Denmark: 135 (781) 1,273* 40 *based on 75,044 tests
Iceland: 76 (26) 18 3
Finland: 68 (375) 469 10
Norway: 56 (306) 338 34
Iceland has 224 active cases, Faroe Islands 2, New Zealand 42.
The Faroe Islands have 4 in quarantine, 0 hospitalized.
Quote:
The infected person, who is linked to a known chain of infection, has been isolated and contact tracing is under way.
First Covid case in six days (KVF.fo, Nov. 21, 2020)
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"Stupidity renders itself invisible by assuming very large proportions. Completely unreasonable claims are irrefutable. Ni-en-leh pointed out that a philosopher might get into trouble by claiming that two times two makes five, but he does not risk much by claiming that two times two makes shoe polish." B. Brecht
"The abolition of religion as the illusory happiness of the people is required for their real happiness. The demand to give up the illusion about its condition is the demand to give up a condition which needs illusions." K. Marx
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Old 22nd November 2020, 12:44 AM   #2932
dann
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Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
So the Swedes think dealing with a highly contagious disease (x 7 than for flu) is 'an experiment'?

When you are in charge of the pandemic response to a disease that is as fatal and disabling as this one, and your response is indefensible, euphemistic descriptions of the harsh reality that you don't want people to know about are common.
In the early days of the Swedish strategy when epidemiologists in the rest of the world couldn't believe what was happening in Sweden, Anders Tegnell and Johan Gisecke often referred to all epidemiological responses as experimental because the virus was a new one.
They wouldn't want people to consider that humanity had dealt with epidemics and pandemics for thousands of years before SARS-CoV-2. The authors of the Bible as well as Muhammed knew what was in the toolbox Quarantine: History (Wikipedia), and that was thousands of year before anybody had heard of a virus.

(It just occurs to me that we haven't heard anything from Giesecke since his Irish colleagues told him to **** off: Swedish expert backtracks on herd immunity for Ireland.)

But the architects of the Swedish strategy insisted that there was no way to know anything about how to handle this particular disease because it was new.

When we got to July-August and the 5,000 dead were long-forgotten and the long-haulers were also out of sight, the Swedish strategy was glamorized by Covid-19 deniers all over the world, and Tegnell no longer felt the need to make up excuses: The Swedes had their season in the sun, they were spread out all over the country and for the most part outside where the virus doesn't thrive.
Tegnell and his fans put it all down to the success of the strategy: herd immunity had been achieved!

Until it became obvious that it hadn't. The numbers began to rise in September, but for several months Anders Tegnell remained in denial about what was happening. Until November, he was playing it down at all press briefings: There were still relatively few cases, in particular in comparison to most of Europe, and even when the number of cases started to rise dramatically, he pointed out that few people were hospitalized and even fewer had died - as if he had learned absolutely nothing from the first wave.

Which, of course, he hadn't, because due to lack of testing, new cases weren't really registered in Sweden because people didn't get tested until they were hospitalized.
At this point, after the first wave, the progression of the disease was almost common knowledge in the rest of the world:
1) people get infected, 2) some of those get symptomatic, 3) some of those get so ill that they are hospitalized, 4) some of those end up on ventilators (unless they are old and not worth saving and therefore get palliative opioids instead), and many of those die.

But that knowledge didn't count for anything in exceptional Sweden where Tegnell remained in denial about the consequences of the rising numbers and used his press briefings to spread ignorance through the media.

So the irony is that, in many ways, the Swedish strategy has been similar to an experiment, but one with not a single control mechanism in place. Sweden put an idiot lacking in empathy in charge of the whole operation and worshipped him like a god: "In Tegnell we trust!"
That is what Sweden has in common with the USA, except that the empathy-deficient idiot in the USA isn't an epidemiologist, but it doesn't make any difference.

Quote:
Is this defiance or denial? I presume these rebels have grandparents...?

The mind boggles. I have a friend who informs me regularly 'It is all a hoax!'

What kind of a hoax would that be?

At least some of them must have grandparents, but if people can convince themselves that the pandemic is a hoax, then there is no reason to worry about granny. But for many young(ish) people I guess it's the modern equivalent of placing granny on an ice floe.

Nowadays, however, the Eskimos could teach the Covid-19 deniers a thing or two about pandemics: COVID-19 pandemic in Greenland (Wikipedia).
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"Stupidity renders itself invisible by assuming very large proportions. Completely unreasonable claims are irrefutable. Ni-en-leh pointed out that a philosopher might get into trouble by claiming that two times two makes five, but he does not risk much by claiming that two times two makes shoe polish." B. Brecht
"The abolition of religion as the illusory happiness of the people is required for their real happiness. The demand to give up the illusion about its condition is the demand to give up a condition which needs illusions." K. Marx
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Old 22nd November 2020, 04:10 AM   #2933
Vixen
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Originally Posted by dann View Post
When you are in charge of the pandemic response to a disease that is as fatal and disabling as this one, and your response is indefensible, euphemistic descriptions of the harsh reality that you don't want people to know about are common.
In the early days of the Swedish strategy when epidemiologists in the rest of the world couldn't believe what was happening in Sweden, Anders Tegnell and Johan Gisecke often referred to all epidemiological responses as experimental because the virus was a new one.
They wouldn't want people to consider that humanity had dealt with epidemics and pandemics for thousands of years before SARS-CoV-2. The authors of the Bible as well as Muhammed knew what was in the toolbox Quarantine: History (Wikipedia), and that was thousands of year before anybody had heard of a virus.

(It just occurs to me that we haven't heard anything from Giesecke since his Irish colleagues told him to **** off: Swedish expert backtracks on herd immunity for Ireland.)

But the architects of the Swedish strategy insisted that there was no way to know anything about how to handle this particular disease because it was new.

When we got to July-August and the 5,000 dead were long-forgotten and the long-haulers were also out of sight, the Swedish strategy was glamorized by Covid-19 deniers all over the world, and Tegnell no longer felt the need to make up excuses: The Swedes had their season in the sun, they were spread out all over the country and for the most part outside where the virus doesn't thrive.
Tegnell and his fans put it all down to the success of the strategy: herd immunity had been achieved!

Until it became obvious that it hadn't. The numbers began to rise in September, but for several months Anders Tegnell remained in denial about what was happening. Until November, he was playing it down at all press briefings: There were still relatively few cases, in particular in comparison to most of Europe, and even when the number of cases started to rise dramatically, he pointed out that few people were hospitalized and even fewer had died - as if he had learned absolutely nothing from the first wave.

Which, of course, he hadn't, because due to lack of testing, new cases weren't really registered in Sweden because people didn't get tested until they were hospitalized.
At this point, after the first wave, the progression of the disease was almost common knowledge in the rest of the world:
1) people get infected, 2) some of those get symptomatic, 3) some of those get so ill that they are hospitalized, 4) some of those end up on ventilators (unless they are old and not worth saving and therefore get palliative opioids instead), and many of those die.

But that knowledge didn't count for anything in exceptional Sweden where Tegnell remained in denial about the consequences of the rising numbers and used his press briefings to spread ignorance through the media.

So the irony is that, in many ways, the Swedish strategy has been similar to an experiment, but one with not a single control mechanism in place. Sweden put an idiot lacking in empathy in charge of the whole operation and worshipped him like a god: "In Tegnell we trust!"
That is what Sweden has in common with the USA, except that the empathy-deficient idiot in the USA isn't an epidemiologist, but it doesn't make any difference.




At least some of them must have grandparents, but if people can convince themselves that the pandemic is a hoax, then there is no reason to worry about granny. But for many young(ish) people I guess it's the modern equivalent of placing granny on an ice floe.

Nowadays, however, the Eskimos could teach the Covid-19 deniers a thing or two about pandemics: COVID-19 pandemic in Greenland (Wikipedia).
Tegnell's not in denial. He knows exactly what the craic is. He was appointed by Lofven to keep the economy going. Tegnell - like Johnson and Trump - thought they could bring in 'herd immunity' by stealth. It's regrettable to them that the old and the weak will die but then, they reason, they contribute little to the economy. The politicians know nothing about 'herd immunity' - evidently - yet Tegnell and the UK's Sir Patrick Vallence (a medic) certainly would. Johnson even made a tv broadcast in the early days announcing solemnly, 'Many of your loved ones will die!' before he and Vallance were hastily forced to take proper measures, thanks to SAGE members. It was all about 'keeping the economy going' whilst making reassuring noises to the public. Whilst Johnson rapidly changed course - albeit too late - Tegnell has steadfastly given his boss and paymaster Lofven wherever it is he wants him to say in the belief whilst the old and the sick will die (but psssst! don't say it too loudly) in the belief/hope that once that nuisance has been dealt with, most people in Sweden would have antibodies and thus the economy would carry on growing: one up on the feint-hearted countries who imposed economic shut down. IOW slimy and sneaky, for Tegnell has seen that this was not happening with only about 6% with antibodies.

There is no other conclusion than that it was quite deliberate gross negligence, given we have had the examples of ebola, SARS, HIV, polio, TB, chickenpox, etc. It is no mystery how contagious diseases spread. Even in 13th/14th century Europe people knew to turn and run the other way should someone with festering blisters on their face or hands come into your vision. The richer folk left the country all together! What did they know about contagious disease, without any education at all.
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Old 22nd November 2020, 05:03 AM   #2934
dann
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I think we agree - except, maybe, about the meaning of being in denial:
Quote:
In the psychology of human behavior, denialism is a person's choice to deny reality as a way to avoid a psychologically uncomfortable truth.
Denialism is an essentially irrational action that withholds the validation of a historical experience or event, when a person refuses to accept an empirically verifiable reality.
(Wikipedia)

I am not saying or implying that the herd-immunity strategy was something he just happened to slide into inadvertently. (Neither did Trump, by the way.) But by August he actually thought he'd got it made: people had forgotten about the 5,000 deaths, and herd immunity would protect Sweden from the second wave, so the (not exactly voluntary) sacrifice of the 5,000 would have been worth it, in his and Löfven's calculations.

And he couldn't give up on this delusion when September arrived and the numbers started to rise, rapidly. At this point he was hoping against all his knowledge to the contrary that the delusion of herd immunity would somehow prove him right: Sweden would fare much better than its neighbors due to the elusive herd immunity, and he spent a significant portion of all the press briefings playing down both what was happening and what was obviously about to happen.

And the delusion of herd immunity was also what made the rest of Sweden think that the preparations that weren't made in March, April and May would have become superfluous at this point: Sweden could spend the coming fall and winter watching from the sideline as the dying started in the other Nordic countries, which had merely postponed the deaths in vain.

By the way, the delusion of herd immunity was actually one of Sweden's many consensual hallucinations*. Even the level-headed Björn Olsen expected Sweden to get away without a second wave:
Professor ger Tegnell rätt: Ingen andra våg i Sverige (Omni.se, Oct. 5, 2020)
Professor agrees with Tegnell: No second wave in Sweden

And he did so at a point when he should have seen it coming:
Originally Posted by dann View Post
The number of new cases in Sweden:
Tuesday, Sep. 15: 840 - since Friday, according to SVT.se
Tuesday, Sep. 22: 1,199 - since Friday, according to SVT.se
Tuesday, Sep. 29: 1,543 - since Friday, according to SVT.se
Tuesday, Oct. 6: 1,862 - since Friday, according to SVT.se
Tuesday, Oct. 13: 2,203 - since Friday, according to SVT.se
Tuesday, Oct. 20: 3,180 - since Friday, according to SVT.se
Tuesday, Oct. 27: 5,191 - since Friday, according to SVT.se
Tuesday, Nov. 3: 10,177 - since Friday, according to SVT.se
Tuesday, Nov. 10: 15,779 - since Friday, according to SVT.se
Tuesday, Nov. 17: 15,084 - since Friday, according to SVT.se

*I stole this from William Gibson's definition of cyberspace!
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"Stupidity renders itself invisible by assuming very large proportions. Completely unreasonable claims are irrefutable. Ni-en-leh pointed out that a philosopher might get into trouble by claiming that two times two makes five, but he does not risk much by claiming that two times two makes shoe polish." B. Brecht
"The abolition of religion as the illusory happiness of the people is required for their real happiness. The demand to give up the illusion about its condition is the demand to give up a condition which needs illusions." K. Marx
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Old 22nd November 2020, 08:28 AM   #2935
dann
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Ny coronarapport: Sverige är sämst (Aftonbladet.se, Nov. 22, 2020)
New corona report: Sweden is worst

Aftonbladet's article is based on an article by Emanuel Karlsten:
Sverige sämst på att minska smittspridningen – Tegnell: Spännande rapport som saknar kontext (EmanuelKarlsten.se, Nov. 20, 2020)
Sweden is worst at lowering the spread of the infection - Tegnell: Interesting report, which lacks context

Whose article is based on this OECD report and a short interview with Tegnell:
Quote:
The 2020 edition of Health at a Glance: Europe focuses on the impact of the COVID 19 crisis. Chapter 1 provides an initial assessment of the resilience of European health systems to the COVID-19 pandemic and their ability to contain and respond to the worst pandemic in the past century.
Health at a Glance: Europe 2020 - State of Health in the EU Cycle (OECD-library.org, Nov. 19, 2020)
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"Stupidity renders itself invisible by assuming very large proportions. Completely unreasonable claims are irrefutable. Ni-en-leh pointed out that a philosopher might get into trouble by claiming that two times two makes five, but he does not risk much by claiming that two times two makes shoe polish." B. Brecht
"The abolition of religion as the illusory happiness of the people is required for their real happiness. The demand to give up the illusion about its condition is the demand to give up a condition which needs illusions." K. Marx
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Old 23rd November 2020, 12:31 AM   #2936
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Sunday:
Coronavirus - countries (Worldometers, Nov. 22, 2020)
Deaths per million (Total deaths) New cases Serious/Critical
Sweden: 633 (6,406) 7,240* 182* **According to SVT.se
Denmark: 135 (784) 850* 39 *based on 58,018 tests, 1.47% positive; fewer tests than yesterday, so the lower number of cases may not be reason for optimism.
Iceland: 76 (26) 8 3
Finland: 68 (375) 423 10
Norway: 56 (306) 413 35
Iceland has 205 active cases, Faroe Islands 3, New Zealand 50. (NZ’s eight new cases today: “People who travelled internationally and were diagnosed in managed facilities at the border”)
The Faroe Islands have 5 in quarantine, 0 hospitalized.
Quote:
Yesterday’s round of 222 tests yielded one positive result.
The infected person, who tested positive on arrival to the Faroes, has been isolated and contact tracing is underway.
One more new Covid case (KVF.fo, Nov. 22, 2020)
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"Stupidity renders itself invisible by assuming very large proportions. Completely unreasonable claims are irrefutable. Ni-en-leh pointed out that a philosopher might get into trouble by claiming that two times two makes five, but he does not risk much by claiming that two times two makes shoe polish." B. Brecht
"The abolition of religion as the illusory happiness of the people is required for their real happiness. The demand to give up the illusion about its condition is the demand to give up a condition which needs illusions." K. Marx
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Old 23rd November 2020, 12:53 AM   #2937
dann
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Originally Posted by dann View Post
(Aftonbladet.se, Nov. 22, 2020) New corona report: Sweden is worst

I guess it won't come as a surprise to anybody that Tegnell doesn't like the OECD report:

Sverige får bottenbetyg i stor coronastudie (SVT.se, Nov. 22, 2020)
Sweden gets bottom grades in big corona study

Professorn: Rapporten är något vi måste lära oss av (SVT.se, Nov. 22, 2020)
Professor: The report is something we must learn from

Tegnell starkt kritisk till OECD-rapport (SVT.se, Nov. 22, 2020)
Tegnell is very critical of the OECD report
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"Stupidity renders itself invisible by assuming very large proportions. Completely unreasonable claims are irrefutable. Ni-en-leh pointed out that a philosopher might get into trouble by claiming that two times two makes five, but he does not risk much by claiming that two times two makes shoe polish." B. Brecht
"The abolition of religion as the illusory happiness of the people is required for their real happiness. The demand to give up the illusion about its condition is the demand to give up a condition which needs illusions." K. Marx
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Old 23rd November 2020, 01:40 AM   #2938
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Originally Posted by dann View Post
I guess it won't come as a surprise to anybody that Tegnell doesn't like the OECD report:

Sverige får bottenbetyg i stor coronastudie (SVT.se, Nov. 22, 2020)
Sweden gets bottom grades in big corona study

Professorn: Rapporten är något vi måste lära oss av (SVT.se, Nov. 22, 2020)
Professor: The report is something we must learn from

Tegnell starkt kritisk till OECD-rapport (SVT.se, Nov. 22, 2020)
Tegnell is very critical of the OECD report
Tegnell thinks he's better than the OECD....???
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Old 23rd November 2020, 02:18 AM   #2939
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Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
Tegnell thinks he's better than the OECD....???
He has an ego the size of a planet.
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Old 23rd November 2020, 03:30 AM   #2940
dann
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Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
Tegnell thinks he's better than the OECD....???

Well, he recognizes that the OECD report looks exclusively at the numbers, but what he says is:

Quote:
– Man måste har en systemkännedom för hälsostatistik. Det är extremt svårt att jämföra hälsodata mellan olika länder, säger han.
(...)
– Mätningen är gjort då Sverige ökade testningen väldigt mycket och ju fler man testar, desto fler fall hittar man – då blir det svårare att få ned R-talet, säger Anders Tegnell.
(...)
Men även om Anders Tegnell är starkt kritisk till rapporten så tycker han ändå att det är bra att OECD har nöjt sig med att presentera sina resultat utan att dra några större slutsatser huruvida vissa länder hanterat pandemin bättre än andra.
– De säger ju inte att Sverige har misslyckats

1) "- You need to have knowledge of the system of health statistics. It is extremely difficult to compare health data between different countries."

This is true, of course. It is difficult. For instance, f one country tests children (Finland), and another one doesn't (Sweden), the registered numbers of infected children in the two countries become pretty incomparable. (You might as well discard the Swedish numbers in this case - and the reports based on them.)

2) "- The measurement was done when Sweden was increasing the testing very much and the more you test, the more cases you find - then it becomes more difficult to get down the R-number."

This is also true, but the funny thing is that this didn't bother the Public Health Agency at all when they declared this weekend that the R0 had gone down - corresponding to fewer tests!
Throughout the pandemic, Anders Tegnell and the Public Health Agency have been busy presenting only the part of the story that they thought made their strategy look good, so it's embarrassing when an international institution presents nothing but the numbers.
(Also interesting to see him use the Trump argument!)

3) "But even though Anders Tegnell is fiercely critical of the report, he still thinks it is good that the OECD has restricted itself to presenting its results without drawing any major conclusions as to whether some countries have handled the pandemic better than others.
- They do not say that Sweden has failed."


Which is also true: They don't say that Sweden (i.e. Tegnell) has failed. They let the numbers do the talking, and Anders Tegnell doesn't like what they are saying.


It is interesting that Dagens Nyheter had this editorial yesterday:

Quote:
Om lärare utsätts för större smittorisk när de undervisar elever i högstadiet jämfört med lågstadiet måste det fram i ljuset. Samma sak gäller undersköterskor som nekas munskydd.
Sluta sopa obekvema coronasiffror under mattan (DagensNyheter.se, Nov. 22, 2020)
If teachers are exposed to bigger corona risks when they are teaching secondary education rather than elementary school, it must be reported. This also goes for assistant nurses who are denied face masks.
Stop sweeping inconvenient corona numbers under the rug
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"Stupidity renders itself invisible by assuming very large proportions. Completely unreasonable claims are irrefutable. Ni-en-leh pointed out that a philosopher might get into trouble by claiming that two times two makes five, but he does not risk much by claiming that two times two makes shoe polish." B. Brecht
"The abolition of religion as the illusory happiness of the people is required for their real happiness. The demand to give up the illusion about its condition is the demand to give up a condition which needs illusions." K. Marx
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Old 23rd November 2020, 09:39 AM   #2941
dann
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According to a new article in Expressen.se today about an interview with Anders Tegnell on BBC News, Tegnells miss i BBC om svenska reglerna, Tegnell corrects the interviewer, but he is wrong about the distance that he claims is required between tables at restaurants:

Quote:
Programledaren tar upp kravet på att max åtta personer får sitta vid samma bord på en restaurang och hävdar att det i övrigt inte spelar någon roll hur borden är placerade.
Tegnell rättar – och har själv fel.
– Det där är inte sant. Så är det inte. Restauranger har väldigt strikta regler om att de ska ha avstånd mellan borden. Två meter, och det är lagstadgat. Så det är en myt som sprids, inte vad som händer, säger Anders Tegnell.
Sant är att det är lagstadgat. Fel är måttet.
Enligt Folkhälsomyndighetens rekommendationer ska avståndet vara en meter – inte två.
The studio host addresses the requirement that a maximum of eight people may be seated at the same table in a restaurant, and she claims that it does not matter how the tables are placed.
Tegnell corrects - and is wrong himself.
- That's not true. That's not how it is. Restaurants have very strict rules that they must have distance between the tables. Two meters, and it is statutory. So it is a myth that is being spread, not what actually happens, says Anders Tegnell.
It is true that it is statutory. But the distance is wrong.
According to the Swedish Public Health Agency's recommendations, the distance should be one meter - not two.

Tegnell: Sweden being more targeted in its Covid rules (BBC News, Nov. 20, 2020)

I don't really see how the distance could possibly be less that 1 meter for people to be able to get to their seats. In the current circumstances, I would consider a restaurant crowded if the distance between tables is no more than 1 meter.
The interview also shows that Tegnell still prefers to compare Sweden to Belgium - and nowadays also to the UK - rather than to Finland or Sweden's other Scandinavian neighbors.
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"Stupidity renders itself invisible by assuming very large proportions. Completely unreasonable claims are irrefutable. Ni-en-leh pointed out that a philosopher might get into trouble by claiming that two times two makes five, but he does not risk much by claiming that two times two makes shoe polish." B. Brecht
"The abolition of religion as the illusory happiness of the people is required for their real happiness. The demand to give up the illusion about its condition is the demand to give up a condition which needs illusions." K. Marx
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Old 23rd November 2020, 11:42 PM   #2942
dann
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Monday:
Coronavirus - countries (Worldometers, Nov. 23, 2020)
Deaths per million (Total deaths) New cases Serious/Critical
Sweden: 633 (6,406) 7,240* 182* **According to SVT.se
Denmark: 136 (789) 1,169* 41 *based on 71,047 tests, positive 1.6 %
Iceland: 76 (26) 12 2
Finland: 69 (384) 297 15
Norway: 57 (311) 418 36
Iceland has 198 active cases, Faroe Islands 3, New Zealand 52.
The Faroe Islands have 9 in quarantine, 0 hospitalized.
Most say they're healthy (KVF.fo, Nov. 23, 2020) Interesting health survey – but nothing about Covid-19.
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"Stupidity renders itself invisible by assuming very large proportions. Completely unreasonable claims are irrefutable. Ni-en-leh pointed out that a philosopher might get into trouble by claiming that two times two makes five, but he does not risk much by claiming that two times two makes shoe polish." B. Brecht
"The abolition of religion as the illusory happiness of the people is required for their real happiness. The demand to give up the illusion about its condition is the demand to give up a condition which needs illusions." K. Marx

Last edited by dann; 24th November 2020 at 12:16 AM.
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Old 24th November 2020, 05:45 AM   #2943
dann
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An article in Expressen today is based on the Australian epidemiologist David Steadman's calculations:

Quote:
Den 10 och 17 april dog 115 personer i Sverige med corona.
Före jul skulle lika många, eller fler, kunna dö enligt epidemiologen David Steadsons beräkningar.
– Vi överstiger 100 dödsfall per dag innan jul, även om det inte kommer att synas i statistiken förrän efter nyår, säger han.
Steadson, som varit flitigt citerad i australiska medier och som bor i Sverige, anser att den svenska strategin har varit otillräcklig för att stoppa skenande dödstal.
(...)
”Efter dagens uppdatering från Folkhälsomyndigheten förutser jag att Sverige kommer att överstiga toppen med de 100 dödsfallen de hade i april”, skrev han på Twitter den 18 november.
Larmet om Sverige: Fler döda än i våras (Expressen, Nov. 24, 2020)
115 people died in Sweden with corona on April 10 and 17,
Before Christmas, as many, or more, could die, according to epidemiologist David Steadson's calculations.
- We will exceed 100 deaths per day before Christmas, although it will not be visible in the statistics until 2021, he says.
Steadson, who has been frequently quoted in the Australian media and lives in Sweden, believes that the Swedish strategy has not been sufficient to stop the rampant death toll.
(...)
"After today's data update from the Swedish Public Health Agency (FHM) I confidently forecast Sweden will surpass the peak of 100 COVID deaths/day they had in April," he wrote on Twitter on 18 November.
The alarm about Sweden: More dead than last spring

The latter quotation is from another researcher, Marc Bevan, confirms David Steadson’s calculations on Twitter, Nov. 18, 2020.
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"Stupidity renders itself invisible by assuming very large proportions. Completely unreasonable claims are irrefutable. Ni-en-leh pointed out that a philosopher might get into trouble by claiming that two times two makes five, but he does not risk much by claiming that two times two makes shoe polish." B. Brecht
"The abolition of religion as the illusory happiness of the people is required for their real happiness. The demand to give up the illusion about its condition is the demand to give up a condition which needs illusions." K. Marx
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Old 24th November 2020, 06:13 AM   #2944
dann
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The number of new registered cases on Tuesdays in Sweden (no numbers Saturday, Sunday, Monday):
Tuesday, Sep. 15: 840 - since Friday, according to SVT.se
Tuesday, Sep. 22: 1,199 - since Friday, according to SVT.se
Tuesday, Sep. 29: 1,543 - since Friday, according to SVT.se
Tuesday, Oct. 6: 1,862 - since Friday, according to SVT.se
Tuesday, Oct. 13: 2,203 - since Friday, according to SVT.se
Tuesday, Oct. 20: 3,180 - since Friday, according to SVT.se
Tuesday, Oct. 27: 5,191 - since Friday, according to SVT.se
Tuesday, Nov. 3: 10,177 - since Friday, according to SVT.se
Tuesday, Nov. 10: 15,779 - since Friday, according to SVT.se
Tuesday, Nov. 17: 15,084 - since Friday, according to SVT.se
Tuesday, Nov. 24: 17,265 - since Friday, according to SVT.se

The number of new registered deaths since Friday: 94.
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"Stupidity renders itself invisible by assuming very large proportions. Completely unreasonable claims are irrefutable. Ni-en-leh pointed out that a philosopher might get into trouble by claiming that two times two makes five, but he does not risk much by claiming that two times two makes shoe polish." B. Brecht
"The abolition of religion as the illusory happiness of the people is required for their real happiness. The demand to give up the illusion about its condition is the demand to give up a condition which needs illusions." K. Marx
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Old 24th November 2020, 06:53 AM   #2945
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Here is NZ

https://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/politi...C2DJFAKXETVAI/
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Old 24th November 2020, 07:28 AM   #2946
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The major difference between NZ and Sweden is obvious:
"Speaking to media this morning, Ardern said the Government was still working through its immunisation strategy, which is centred around a Covid-19 vaccine."
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"Stupidity renders itself invisible by assuming very large proportions. Completely unreasonable claims are irrefutable. Ni-en-leh pointed out that a philosopher might get into trouble by claiming that two times two makes five, but he does not risk much by claiming that two times two makes shoe polish." B. Brecht
"The abolition of religion as the illusory happiness of the people is required for their real happiness. The demand to give up the illusion about its condition is the demand to give up a condition which needs illusions." K. Marx
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Old 24th November 2020, 01:55 PM   #2947
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An interesting article about crowding on public transport in Sweden:

Quote:
Ansvaret läggs på individen och det provocerar skolkuratorn Merima Muharemovic som tillbringar två timmar om dagen i kollektivtrafiken.
– Jag har ingen möjlighet att undvika trängseln, säger hon.
Resenär om trängseln: Provocerad av det ständiga mantrat om individens ansvar (DagensNyheter.se, Nov. 24, 2020)
The individual person is made responsible and that offends the school counselor Merima Muharemovic, who spends two hours a day on public transport.
– It is impossible for me to avoid crowding, she says.
Travelers about crowding: Provoked by the perpetual mantra about individual responsibility

It is a very different description than Clutch Cargo's in post 2661 (see photo in the article).
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"Stupidity renders itself invisible by assuming very large proportions. Completely unreasonable claims are irrefutable. Ni-en-leh pointed out that a philosopher might get into trouble by claiming that two times two makes five, but he does not risk much by claiming that two times two makes shoe polish." B. Brecht
"The abolition of religion as the illusory happiness of the people is required for their real happiness. The demand to give up the illusion about its condition is the demand to give up a condition which needs illusions." K. Marx
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Old 24th November 2020, 11:25 PM   #2948
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Tuesday:
Coronavirus - countries (Worldometers, Nov. 24, 2020)
Deaths per million (Total deaths) New cases Serious/Critical
Sweden: 642 (6,500) 17,265* 190* **according to SVT.se
Denmark: 137 (797) 1,367* 40 *based on 81,621 tests, positive 1.6 %
Iceland: 76 (26) 9 2
Finland: 69 (384) 353 15
Norway: 58 (314) 534 39
Iceland has 186 active cases, Faroe Islands 2, New Zealand 53.
The Faroe Islands have 10 in quarantine, 0 hospitalized.
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"Stupidity renders itself invisible by assuming very large proportions. Completely unreasonable claims are irrefutable. Ni-en-leh pointed out that a philosopher might get into trouble by claiming that two times two makes five, but he does not risk much by claiming that two times two makes shoe polish." B. Brecht
"The abolition of religion as the illusory happiness of the people is required for their real happiness. The demand to give up the illusion about its condition is the demand to give up a condition which needs illusions." K. Marx
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Old 25th November 2020, 04:07 AM   #2949
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Quote:
Medellivslängden i Sverige kommer med stor sannolikhet att sjunka i år med anledning av pandemin. Detta enligt en prognos från SCB.
(…)
Det kan bli den största minskningen på två år sedan 1944.
Senaste nytt om coronaviruset (Expressen.se, Nov. 25, 2020 – 9:54)
Life expectancy in Sweden will most likely decrease this year due to the pandemic, according to a forecast from Statistics Sweden.
(…)
It may become the biggest shortening of the average length of life in two years since 1944.
Latest news about the coronvirus

Quote:
What Anders Tegnell said – and what actually happened Paywall, unfortunately …

Quote:
Han får också en fråga av en tittare som undrar varför Anders Tegnell är rädd för att rekommendera munskydd.
- Jag är inte alls rädd för att rekommendera munskydd i situationer där munskydd skulle kunna göra skillnad. Vi har hela tiden dialogen med framförallt våra regioner, som skulle vara de som hanterar den typen av rekommendationer i så fall. Hittills är den bedömningen att vi lyckas bra med att hålla avstånd, ändå. Man rekommenderar regionerna ibland, i väldigt speciella situationer, att det kan vara bra med munskydd som komplement. Men att ha det allmänt är tveksamt hur mycket det hjälper, det finns inte jättebra forskning. Vi kan se många länder i Europa som haft lagar om munskydd under lång tid, som ändå har en omfattande smittspridning, svarar Tegnell.
Senaste nytt om coronaviruset (SVT.se, Nov. 24, 2020)
He also gets a question from a viewer who is wondering why Anders Tegnell is afraid of recommending face masks.
-I am noget at all afraid of recommending face masks in situations where where face masks would make a difference. We are in a dialogue alle the time primarily with the regions, who are meant to be in charge of recommendations in those cases. So far, the assessment has been that we have had success with social diastancing. Now and then, the regions are advised, in very special situations, that it may be a good idea to use face masks in addition to other measures. But it is doubtful that it would help to recommendation face masks in general, there is no very good research. We can see many countries in Europe that have had laws about face mask for a long time, and yet they have had widespread infection, answers Tegnell.
Latest news about the coronavirus

Quote:
Att smittan är luftburen brukar vara argument för att man ska bära ansiktsmask. När man vistas i trånga miljöer i exempelvis kollektivtrafiken kan ett munskydd ha effekt, säger Malin Alsved.
– Munskydd är bra för att vi inte vet vilka som är smittade. Om man har munskydd hindrar man både droppar och aerosol från att spridas. Man minskar helt enkelt hur många smittade partiklar som finns i luften.
Viktigast är dock fortfarande att hålla avstånd.
– Det är effektivt för både dropp- och luftburen smitta.
Luftforskaren: Högljudda miljöer kan vara riskmiljö (SVT.se, Nov. 24, 2020)
That the infection is airborne is usually an argument for wearing face masks. When you are in very crowded environments, for instance on public transport, face masks may be effective, says Malin Alsved.
Face masks are good because we don’t know who is infected. If you are wearing face masks, you stop both droplets and aerosols from spreading. You simply lower the number of contagious particles in the air.
But social distancing is still the most important thing.
- It works for contagion in the form of both droplets and aerosols.
Air researcher: Loud environments may be risk environments
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"The abolition of religion as the illusory happiness of the people is required for their real happiness. The demand to give up the illusion about its condition is the demand to give up a condition which needs illusions." K. Marx

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Old 25th November 2020, 04:39 AM   #2950
dann
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Quote:
”Den svenska modellen” i coronahanteringen har väckt förundran världen över. Men när en andra våg nu sveper över landet ser statsminister Stefan Löfven ut att ha tappat förtroendet för statsepidemiologen Anders Tegnell.
Statsminister Stefan Löfven (S) hade just meddelat det närmsta en svensk nedstängning av samhället som går att genomföra inom lagens ramar. Alla allmänna sammankomster och offentliga tillställningar på mer än åtta personer förbjuds. Grundlagsfästa fri- och rättigheter sätts på undantag.
I Sveriges Radio medverkade Anders Tegnell för att svara på varför man har landat i att just den begränsningen är mest effektiv för att minska smittspridningen. Men den annars vältalige och självsäkre statsepidemiologen hade inga bra svar att ge.
Sprickan växer – så blev Tegnell av med sitt veto (SvenskaDagbladet.se, Nov. 22, 2020)
The "Swedish model" in corona management has surprised people all over the world. But as a second wave is now sweeping across the country, prime minister Stefan Löfven seems to have lost confidence in national epidemiologist Anders Tegnell. Prime minister Stefan Löfven (Social Democrat) had just announced the closest thing to a Swedish lockdown of society that can be implemented within the framework of the law. All public gatherings and public events for more than eight people are prohibited. Constitutional freedoms and rights are suspended. Anders Tegnell appeared on Swedish Radio to answer why it has been concluded that this particular restriction is most effective way to reduce the spread of infection. But the otherwise eloquent and self-secure national epidemiologist had no good answers.
The gap is growing - how Tegnell lost his veto

Quote:
På söndagskvällen var svenska folket än en gång inkallade till rektorn. ”Många har slarvat med att följa råd och rekommendationer” sa Stefan Löfven och konstaterade att ”den lilla respit vi fick under sommaren och hösten är verkligen över”.
Statsministerns tal till nationen innehöll alltså en uppläxning av svenska folket som har slarvat. Det innehöll däremot inte någon självkritik, men det kan ju nämnas att signalerna från regeringen och Folkhälso¬myndigheten fram till för bara några veckor sedan pekade i en helt annan riktning än i dag.
Ingen självkritik från Löfven under uppläxningen (SvenskaDagbladet.se, Nov. 22, 2020)
On Sunday night, the Swedish people had again been summoned to the principal’s office. ”Many have been sloppy about following advice and regulations,” said Stefan Löfven and stated that ”the short respite we had this summer and fall is really over.”
So the prime minister’s speech to the nation contained a sermon to the Swedish people about being sloppy. But it didn’t contain any self-criticism, but until just a few weeks ago, the signals from the government and the Public Health Agency pointed in a very different direction from what we hear today.
No self-criticism from Löfven during his sermon

Some of the Swedish media have also started to point out that the first few months of Sweden's pandemic response weren't the success story that Löfven would like to pretend.
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"Stupidity renders itself invisible by assuming very large proportions. Completely unreasonable claims are irrefutable. Ni-en-leh pointed out that a philosopher might get into trouble by claiming that two times two makes five, but he does not risk much by claiming that two times two makes shoe polish." B. Brecht
"The abolition of religion as the illusory happiness of the people is required for their real happiness. The demand to give up the illusion about its condition is the demand to give up a condition which needs illusions." K. Marx
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Old 25th November 2020, 04:53 AM   #2951
dann
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Quote:
Frågan som delar expertisen just nu: Sprids coronaviruset som en droppsmitta eller är det luftburet? Svaret på frågan avgör också om vi bör ha munskydd eller inte. Folkhälsomyndigheten borde inte uttrycka sig så tvärsäkert, enligt en forskare.
(…)
Public Health Agency:
"Är covid-19 en luftburen smitta?
Nej, covid-19 räknas inte som en luftburen smitta.
"
Corona kan vara både luftburet och droppsmitta (Sydsvenskan.se, Nov. 22, 2020)
The question that divides the experts right now: Is the coronavirus spreading as droplet infection or is it airborne? The answer to the question also determines whether we should use face masks or not. The Public Health Authority should not be so cocksure in this question, according to one researcher.
(…)
The Public Health Agency:
"Is covid-19 an airborne infection?
No, covid-19 is not considered to be an airborne infection
.”
Coronavirus can be both airborne and transmitted in droplets.

It's hard to believe, but that is actually what the Swedish Public Health Agency is still saying on its website today!
Quote:
Är covid-19 en luftburen smitta?
Nej, covid-19 räknas inte som en luftburen smitta
.
Smittspridning (Folkhälsomyndigheten)
It is insane, but the Swedish Public Health Agency (Folkshälsomyndigheten) seems to interpret reality according to the Swedish strategy instead of the other way 'round: What is this disease and how do we consequently deal with it?
When new knowledge is acquired about coronavirus, the Public Health Agency prefers to be in denial about it: We don't recommend face masks, so the coronavirus is not airborne!
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"Stupidity renders itself invisible by assuming very large proportions. Completely unreasonable claims are irrefutable. Ni-en-leh pointed out that a philosopher might get into trouble by claiming that two times two makes five, but he does not risk much by claiming that two times two makes shoe polish." B. Brecht
"The abolition of religion as the illusory happiness of the people is required for their real happiness. The demand to give up the illusion about its condition is the demand to give up a condition which needs illusions." K. Marx

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Old 25th November 2020, 07:14 AM   #2952
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Well, it's not truly airborne, but that's a matter of definition. It's been obvious since April that it's transmitted by aerosol as well as large droplets and that a 2m distance is no use at all if you're in a poorly-ventilated airspace that has become aerosolised.
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Old 25th November 2020, 09:00 AM   #2953
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The CDC says:
Quote:
Airborne transmission of SARS-CoV-2 can occur under special circumstances
Pathogens that are mainly transmitted through close contact (i.e., contact transmission and droplet transmission) can sometimes also be spread via airborne transmission under special circumstances. There are several well-documented examples in which SARS-CoV-2 appears to have been transmitted over long distances or times. These transmission events appear uncommon and have typically involved the presence of an infectious person producing respiratory droplets for an extended time (>30 minutes to multiple hours) in an enclosed space. Enough virus was present in the space to cause infections in people who were more than 6 feet away or who passed through that space soon after the infectious person had left. Circumstances under which airborne transmission of SARS-CoV-2 appears to have occurred include:

* Enclosed spaces within which an infectious person either exposed susceptible people at the same time or to which susceptible people were exposed shortly after the infectious person had left the space.
* Prolonged exposure to respiratory particles, often generated with expiratory exertion (e.g., shouting, singing, exercising) that increased the concentration of suspended respiratory droplets in the air space.
* Inadequate ventilation or air handling that allowed a build-up of suspended small respiratory droplets and particles.
Scientific Brief: SARS-CoV-2 and Potential Airborne Transmission (CDC, Oct. 5, 2020)

Winter is coming, the season for hygge. It's difficult to combine with a draft. It blows out the candles!
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"Stupidity renders itself invisible by assuming very large proportions. Completely unreasonable claims are irrefutable. Ni-en-leh pointed out that a philosopher might get into trouble by claiming that two times two makes five, but he does not risk much by claiming that two times two makes shoe polish." B. Brecht
"The abolition of religion as the illusory happiness of the people is required for their real happiness. The demand to give up the illusion about its condition is the demand to give up a condition which needs illusions." K. Marx
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Old 25th November 2020, 10:03 AM   #2954
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Yes, they're describing aerosol transmission indoors, and "long distances or times" is a relative term. True airborne transmission where the bloody thing blows on the wind and can be caught hundreds of metres away downwind in the open air is thankfully not an issue with this one.
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Old 25th November 2020, 10:30 AM   #2955
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Originally Posted by Rolfe View Post
Yes, they're describing aerosol transmission indoors, and "long distances or times" is a relative term. True airborne transmission where the bloody thing blows on the wind and can be caught hundreds of metres away downwind in the open air is thankfully not an issue with this one.
Measles and Foot and Mouth spring to mind for those.
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Old 25th November 2020, 11:36 AM   #2956
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Yes. Foot and Mouth can travel as much as two miles across country on the wind and infect animals at that distance. That's true airborne spread and I think it's a mistake to use the word "airborne" for aerosol spread, because when people hear "airborne" they often imagine out-doors wind-borne infection and that's a pretty scary concept which isn't actually the case here. Loose terminology is causing significant confusion.

However, it's been obvious at least since the Skagit Valley Chorale superspreader event (which happened on 10th March), and other similar occurrences often involving singing or loud talking/shouting indoors, that indoor aerosol spread is an issue. I was emailing people pointing this out in April (relating to choir practices) and also since then I've been eyeing up every indoor space I enter for aerosol potential, and staying out if I wasn't happy. It's hard to believe that the Swedish disease control people still haven't caught on to this.
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Old 25th November 2020, 03:10 PM   #2957
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Originally Posted by Rolfe View Post
Yes. Foot and Mouth can travel as much as two miles across country on the wind and infect animals at that distance. That's true airborne spread and I think it's a mistake to use the word "airborne" for aerosol spread, because when people hear "airborne" they often imagine out-doors wind-borne infection and that's a pretty scary concept which isn't actually the case here. Loose terminology is causing significant confusion.

However, it's been obvious at least since the Skagit Valley Chorale superspreader event (which happened on 10th March), and other similar occurrences often involving singing or loud talking/shouting indoors, that indoor aerosol spread is an issue. I was emailing people pointing this out in April (relating to choir practices) and also since then I've been eyeing up every indoor space I enter for aerosol potential, and staying out if I wasn't happy. It's hard to believe that the Swedish disease control people still haven't caught on to this.
Likewise. I'm still unhappy about the situation in schools and colleges. My daughter's had to isolate once so far because of someone in her 6th form biology class testing positive.
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link is 2015 data (2013 Data below):
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US 16.4% of GDP of which 48.2% is public expenditure - 7.9% of GDP is public spending
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Old 25th November 2020, 04:24 PM   #2958
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There's a paradox. I don't trust the village Co-op. Small, narrow aisles, and people didn't respect the single-file one-way system the only time I went in. Including the staff, who treated me as a nuisance because I was trying to distance.

I do trust, more or less, the big Sainsbury's supermarket about 13 miles away. Huge air-space, much wider aisles, much easier to avoid other people. But it's across the county boundary and the way the guidelines go I should be shopping in the Co-op. Frankly, no. Not going there. I think people have been very lucky because after the first couple of weeks there has been very little virus in the village. But if there had been, that shop would have been trouble.

Yesterday Midlothian was moved to level 2, same as us, so it's now legal to go to Sainsbury's. (I went on Monday though, because I had to take the cat to the vet and my vet is very near the supermarket.) But sometimes what is legal or advised is less safe than what we're told to avoid.

I've been going to Sainsbury's about every two months and getting milk, bread and fresh fruit and veg from a local hotel that prepares orders in advance and you can collect without going inside. At the height of the lockdown they were delivering everything and they will still deliver if you want. The Co-op should have had the sense to organise something like that, but they didn't.

The post office has organised evening shopping by appointment where you book in advance and get the small shop to yourself for a set time so you can browse for cards and Christmas presents. Good for them but I'm still not going to stay in there that long. I'll post something and beat a hasty retreat, thanks.
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Old 25th November 2020, 11:47 PM   #2959
dann
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Wednesday:
Coronavirus - countries (Worldometers, Nov. 25, 2020)
Deaths per million (Total deaths) New cases Serious/Critical
Sweden: 647 (6,555) 4,954* 209* **according to SVT.se
Denmark: 138 (802) 1,183* 42 *based on 75,865 tests, positive 1.6 %
Iceland: 76 (26) 14 2
Finland: 70 (388) 363 21
Norway: 58 (316) 551 35
Iceland has 176 active cases, Faroe Islands 2, New Zealand 59.
The Faroe Islands have 11 in quarantine, 0 hospitalized.
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"Stupidity renders itself invisible by assuming very large proportions. Completely unreasonable claims are irrefutable. Ni-en-leh pointed out that a philosopher might get into trouble by claiming that two times two makes five, but he does not risk much by claiming that two times two makes shoe polish." B. Brecht
"The abolition of religion as the illusory happiness of the people is required for their real happiness. The demand to give up the illusion about its condition is the demand to give up a condition which needs illusions." K. Marx
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Old Yesterday, 12:43 AM   #2960
dann
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Quote:
Did Denmark or Sweden choose the right way when the the corona crisis struck? This is what the numbers say.

In the article, the answer is obvious (see the graphs!), and Denmark's the Hammer-and-the-Dance strategy has obviously been much better than Sweden's Flatten-the-Curve-and-Hope-for-Herd-Immunity strategy.

But the correct answer to the question, Did Denmark or Sweden choose the right pandemic strategy?, would obviously have been: No, they didn't. Denmark has done much better han Sweden but still has twice the number of per-capita deaths of Finland, Iceland or Norway - not to mention the countries that chose the Elimination strategy. (Well, so did Iceland, and not with as much success as many Asian countries, Australia and New Zealand, and the Faroe Islands and Greenland, but still considerably better than both Denmark and Sweden.)
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"Stupidity renders itself invisible by assuming very large proportions. Completely unreasonable claims are irrefutable. Ni-en-leh pointed out that a philosopher might get into trouble by claiming that two times two makes five, but he does not risk much by claiming that two times two makes shoe polish." B. Brecht
"The abolition of religion as the illusory happiness of the people is required for their real happiness. The demand to give up the illusion about its condition is the demand to give up a condition which needs illusions." K. Marx

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