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Old 15th April 2020, 08:58 AM   #81
turingtest
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Originally Posted by thaiboxerken View Post
Kids are not aborted. Please stop pushing this lie. Pregnancies are aborted.
Originally Posted by rockysmith76 View Post
not a lie, how some see it, maybe not convenient for a black and white look at the subject, so not a lie. Rationalization denied
Hey, here's an idea- why don't we let those women involved decide for themselves? You know, on a case-by-case basis, instead of black-and-white, one-size-fits-all rules? Here's what I'm thinking- the "some" who think the fetus is a kid don't have to have an abortion if they don't want one- they get that choice. Wow, huh? And the other women, who may not feel the same way, get to make their own choice, based on what they think, instead of having to go by what the "some" who feel it is a kid think.

Granular, huh?
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Old 15th April 2020, 09:01 AM   #82
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Originally Posted by rockysmith76 View Post
********, when theres a shortage of beds theirs are as good as any for helping to stem the curve. Nothing absurd about it. Whats absurd is the obsession of one type treatment when all could be potentially impacted by the pandemic. Never mind there's a rising number of Covid patients each day, just keep flushing fetuses. That's absurd.
Add some numbers to your argument and it might be more convincing.

How many "beds" would be made available? How many abortions are performed per day?

If you could show that public health would be negatively impacted by allowing abortion to continue, you would have a case.


I, personally, have no interest in discussing whether abortion ought to be legal at all. it's a philosophical issue and I'm well aware of all of the arguments on both sides. However, at least until the next case reaches the Supreme Court, it is legal.

Now, given that, we go back to my earlier mention of its characteristics.

It is: Normally available
Time limited
Has a major impact on the life of the person receiving the service.


Are there any other services that have those characteristics that are currently banned due to COVID-19 restrictions? If not, then why this one?

Last edited by zooterkin; 16th April 2020 at 07:00 AM. Reason: Rule 10
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Old 15th April 2020, 09:08 AM   #83
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Originally Posted by Meadmaker View Post
Add some numbers to your argument and it might be more convincing.

How many "beds" would be made available? How many abortions are performed per day?

If you could show that public health would be negatively impacted by allowing abortion to continue, you would have a case.


I, personally, have no interest in discussing whether abortion ought to be legal at all. it's a philosophical issue and I'm well aware of all of the arguments on both sides. However, at least until the next case reaches the Supreme Court, it is legal.

Now, given that, we go back to my earlier mention of its characteristics.

It is: Normally available
Time limited
Has a major impact on the life of the person receiving the service.


Are there any other services that have those characteristics that are currently banned due to COVID-19 restrictions? If not, then why this one?
You're missing the point, why should abortion clinics get special treatment over other medical specializations. Any day to day state update gives projections about how many beds they're short if there's a covid surge... frankly do your own work. It's about stemming the curve, I personally dont give a rats ass to debate abortion i this thread other than why is it of all things being thrown out there as the one essentiality that must be spared at the peak of a pandemic. The priority just shouldn't be there, and boo hoo anyone wanting to drama bait over womens rights. Its not the point. The pandemic effects everyone.
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Old 15th April 2020, 09:15 AM   #84
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Originally Posted by rockysmith76 View Post
You're missing the point, why should abortion clinics get special treatment over other medical specializations.
Special treatment?

There are a lot of ways to answer that question, and I think you will find pwengthold answered it way back at the beginning. The procedure has a time limit.

Right now, I can't go get my teeth cleaned in Michigan. Why not? Because it can wait. The added risk of having a possibly infected doctor infect several patients isn't worth the risk. On the other hand, if I break a tooth and I am in pain, I can go to a dentist. What's the difference? Time factor. I can't wait for three weeks on the broken tooth without having a significant impact on my life.

I haven't looked into it, but I'm guessing cosmetic surgery is banned or severely restricted right now. Why? Because I can wait a month or two for a nose job.

A pregnant woman can't just wait a couple of months for an abortion.


On top of that, the facilities used for abortion are not generally useful for medical purposes. You aren't going to see an abortion clinic repurposed for general medical use during the pandemic.

Last edited by Meadmaker; 15th April 2020 at 09:17 AM.
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Old 15th April 2020, 09:18 AM   #85
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Originally Posted by turingtest View Post
Hey, here's an idea- why don't we let those women involved decide for themselves?
I don't care what they call it, they should have a choice in whether or not to terminate their pregnancy.

Also, rocky's insistence that a fetus or zygote is a child is contrary to scientific fact.
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Old 15th April 2020, 09:22 AM   #86
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Originally Posted by Meadmaker View Post
A pregnant woman can't just wait a couple of months for an abortion.
I think the revealing giveaway there is that people who are opposed to abortion on ethical grounds find later term abortions worse than earlier ones, because the fetus would be more developed; from that perspective, delaying abortion by months is a worse evil than not delaying them. If the interest were genuinely to protect the fetus from suffering they wouldn't want delayed abortions, it's not a desirable compromise position between abortion and no abortion.
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Old 15th April 2020, 09:28 AM   #87
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Originally Posted by Meadmaker View Post
Add some numbers to your argument and it might be more convincing.

How many "beds" would be made available? How many abortions are performed per day?

If you could show that public health would be negatively impacted by allowing abortion to continue, you would have a case.
Just note the whole "it will take up beds" argument was completely destroyed by the fact that Alabama tried to prohibit medical (pills) abortions as well. Then again, the judge saw right through that one.
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Old 15th April 2020, 09:31 AM   #88
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Originally Posted by TragicMonkey View Post
I think the revealing giveaway there is that people who are opposed to abortion on ethical grounds find later term abortions worse than earlier ones, because the fetus would be more developed; from that perspective, delaying abortion by months is a worse evil than not delaying them. If the interest were genuinely to protect the fetus from suffering they wouldn't want delayed abortions, it's not a desirable compromise position between abortion and no abortion.
I also strongly suspect that if we were to listen to Texas politicians, the same people who are saying that we have to shut down abortions because they take precious medical care away from more critical patients are also saying that we need to get back to work at Dick's Sporting Goods because the coronavirus is not that big a deal and not worth all this fuss.


(RockySmith76 has not been doing that, at least not that I have noticed. I just suspect that there would be a strong correlation between those who want to keep abortion clinics closed, and those who think business restrictions are too tight.)
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Old 15th April 2020, 09:39 AM   #89
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Originally Posted by Meadmaker View Post
I also strongly suspect that if we were to listen to Texas politicians, the same people who are saying that we have to shut down abortions because they take precious medical care away from more critical patients are also saying that we need to get back to work at Dick's Sporting Goods because the coronavirus is not that big a deal and not worth all this fuss.
Texas is also home to one of the Republican politicians who is fine with letting people die from the coronavirus so we can open the economy sooner.

Somehow, that doesn’t seem very “pro-life” to me.
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Old 15th April 2020, 09:45 AM   #90
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Originally Posted by Meadmaker View Post
Special treatment?

There are a lot of ways to answer that question, and I think you will find pwengthold answered it way back at the beginning. The procedure has a time limit.

Right now, I can't go get my teeth cleaned in Michigan. Why not? Because it can wait. The added risk of having a possibly infected doctor infect several patients isn't worth the risk. On the other hand, if I break a tooth and I am in pain, I can go to a dentist. What's the difference? Time factor. I can't wait for three weeks on the broken tooth without having a significant impact on my life.

I haven't looked into it, but I'm guessing cosmetic surgery is banned or severely restricted right now. Why? Because I can wait a month or two for a nose job.

A pregnant woman can't just wait a couple of months for an abortion.


On top of that, the facilities used for abortion are not generally useful for medical purposes. You aren't going to see an abortion clinic repurposed for general medical use during the pandemic.
All true. As I initially said, it's a complete misunderstanding as to what is meant by essential service. It's a service that can't wait until later.

People need groceries, and they can't wait 3 months to buy them. People getting a haircut can wait 3 months. Their hair may be a mop, but they can wait.

If a woman doesn't get an abortion in a timely fashion, she can never get one. That cannot be said for a haircut. Hence, why abortion is essential and a haircut is not.

I saw someone whining about how abortions are being called essential but surgery for heart disease is not. Which is really dumb, because no one is putting off any essential heart surgery. If you need a bypass done immediately, it will be done. If your heart surgery is something that can be put off for 3 months, then it is, by definition, not essential.
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Old 15th April 2020, 09:48 AM   #91
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Originally Posted by rockysmith76 View Post
bullsh****, when theres a shortage of beds theirs are as good as any for helping to stem the curve. Nothing absurd about it. Whats absurd is the obsession of one type treatment when all could be potentially impacted by the pandemic. Never mind there's a rising number of Covid patients each day, just keep flushing fetuses. That's absurd.
So what about the shortage of beds for giving birth or for women having severe pregnancy complications?

Flushing fetuses is a net gain for care availability. It also doesn't require a hospital visit.

So it flattens the curve by preventing the visiting of a virus hotspot, and also raises the bar for the curve to get under by not using hospital resources.

Your arguments work better for increased abortion access, not less.
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Old 15th April 2020, 09:55 AM   #92
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The stupidity, it burns. According to Kellyanne Conway, it's called COVID-19 because there were 18 previous strains of the virus, so WHO should have been ready to deal with it by now.

Quote:
“This is COVID-19, not COVID-1, folks!” Conway said during an interview on “Fox & Friends.” “And so you would think the people in charge of the World Health Organization facts and figures should be on top of that right now.”
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Old 15th April 2020, 09:58 AM   #93
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Originally Posted by johnny karate View Post
Texas is also home to one of the Republican politicians who is fine with letting people die from the coronavirus so we can open the economy sooner.

Somehow, that doesn’t seem very “pro-life” to me.
which has nothing to do with why abortion should be singled out and made special during an outbreak?
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Old 15th April 2020, 10:00 AM   #94
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Originally Posted by pgwenthold View Post
All true. As I initially said, it's a complete misunderstanding as to what is meant by essential service. It's a service that can't wait until later.

People need groceries, and they can't wait 3 months to buy them. People getting a haircut can wait 3 months. Their hair may be a mop, but they can wait.

If a woman doesn't get an abortion in a timely fashion, she can never get one. That cannot be said for a haircut. Hence, why abortion is essential and a haircut is not.

I saw someone whining about how abortions are being called essential but surgery for heart disease is not. Which is really dumb, because no one is putting off any essential heart surgery. If you need a bypass done immediately, it will be done. If your heart surgery is something that can be put off for 3 months, then it is, by definition, not essential.
Again, if they don't want kids, back to the frivolous front, then get fixed as they say and don't worry about, freeing up the focus for the need where it's life threatening. There are prevention level steps one can take if its that important to them. ALso I never said anything about pill based abortions, the other side is the side obsessed with killing fetuses in the first place.
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Old 15th April 2020, 10:03 AM   #95
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Originally Posted by Suddenly View Post
So what about the shortage of beds for giving birth or for women having severe pregnancy complications?

Flushing fetuses is a net gain for care availability. It also doesn't require a hospital visit.

So it flattens the curve by preventing the visiting of a virus hotspot, and also raises the bar for the curve to get under by not using hospital resources.

Your arguments work better for increased abortion access, not less.
Not less, more focused on the actual need, and the frivolity that some of you give the whole child birth process is quite dystopian. One can less the need again, by getting fixed, putting up for adoption or just not putting onself at risk for the need in the first place. But screw some covid patients so someone can off their oops. Screw that.
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Old 15th April 2020, 10:04 AM   #96
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Originally Posted by Armitage72 View Post
The stupidity, it burns. According to Kellyanne Conway, it's called COVID-19 because there were 18 previous strains of the virus, so WHO should have been ready to deal with it by now.
The scary part is that she probably knows damn well that’s not the reason it’s called COVID-19.

But during a life-and-death crisis, Republicans think it’s more important to spew propaganda to their base than keep the American people responsibly informed.

These are truly evil people.
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Old 15th April 2020, 10:05 AM   #97
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Originally Posted by johnny karate View Post
The scary part is that she probably knows damn well that’s not the reason it’s called COVID-19.

But during a life-and-death crisis, Republicans think it’s more important to spew propaganda to their base than keep the American people responsibly informed.

These are truly evil people.
Whats the left done specifically other than whine about every step taken, are they taking steps?
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Old 15th April 2020, 10:07 AM   #98
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Originally Posted by rockysmith76 View Post
Again, if they don't want kids, back to the frivolous front, then get fixed as they say and don't worry about, f
A person getting an abortion is already pregnant. It doesn't do any good to say, "You shouldn't have gotten pregnant" to someone who is pregnant and wants an abortion.

I don't have any problems with those who do things to prevent getting pregnant, but it does nothing to address the situation of those who are pregnant.

And getting an abortion is a legal option for those who are pregnant but don't want to have a child.
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Old 15th April 2020, 10:07 AM   #99
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Originally Posted by rockysmith76 View Post
Again, if they don't want kids, back to the frivolous front, then get fixed as they say and don't worry about, freeing up the focus for the need where it's life threatening. There are prevention level steps one can take if its that important to them. ALso I never said anything about pill based abortions, the other side is the side obsessed with killing fetuses in the first place.
I’m sure we can work out a system where the coronavirus patients who you imagine will be denied a bed will just be the people that Republicans say we should just let die anyway.

It’s a win-win.
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Old 15th April 2020, 10:08 AM   #100
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Originally Posted by johnny karate View Post
The scary part is that she probably knows damn well that’s not the reason it’s called COVID-19. .
Yeah, my initial response was, "No one is really that stupid"
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Old 15th April 2020, 10:14 AM   #101
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Originally Posted by rockysmith76 View Post
Whats the left done specifically other than whine about every step taken, are they taking steps?
Yes.

And it should be noted that “the left” isn’t “whining” about steps taken.

Concerned and horrified Americans are angry at the steps that haven’t been taken by a bumbling and incompetent administration more concerned with soothing Trump’s fragile ego than saving lives while the country is literally falling apart.

Hope that clears things up for you.
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Old 15th April 2020, 10:17 AM   #102
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Originally Posted by rockysmith76 View Post
Whats the left done specifically other than whine about every step taken, are they taking steps?
The 'leftie' governors were among the first to institute 'stay at home' orders.

The right wingers insist that church is essential service, and are willing to sacrifice the population to save the economy.
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Old 15th April 2020, 10:19 AM   #103
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Originally Posted by johnny karate View Post
Yes.

And it should be noted that “the left” isn’t “whining” about steps taken.

Concerned and horrified Americans are angry at the steps that haven’t been taken by a bumbling and incompetent administration more concerned with soothing Trump’s fragile ego than saving lives while the country is literally falling apart.

Hope that clears things up for you.
If it wasnt said on fox it didnt happen.
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Old 15th April 2020, 10:21 AM   #104
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This is an interesting development. If it's accurate.

How Some Rich Americans Are Getting Stimulus ‘Checks’ Averaging $1.7 Million

https://www.forbes.com/sites/shaharz.../#66b006ab665b
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Old 15th April 2020, 10:23 AM   #105
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Originally Posted by rockysmith76 View Post
If it wasnt said on fox it didnt happen.
.. said the extremely biased hard right winger.

Point is, the fact is that 'the left' is doing plenty to help curb deaths, and infection rates in their states, while the President asked why they couldn't just let the virus wash over the country.
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Old 15th April 2020, 10:27 AM   #106
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Originally Posted by Shalamar View Post
.. said the extremely biased hard right winger.

Point is, the fact is that 'the left' is doing plenty to help curb deaths, and infection rates in their states, while the President asked why they couldn't just let the virus wash over the country.
Not curb deaths, flatten the curve, and keep covid patients out of abortion clinic beds, when they could be repurposed.
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Old 15th April 2020, 10:28 AM   #107
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I read an interesting comment that we should be following more stories about what it is actually like in these hospitals than press conferences.

Is there any good Cinéma vérité style videos of what it is like at a hospital right now?
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Old 15th April 2020, 10:28 AM   #108
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Originally Posted by 3point14 View Post
This is an interesting development. If it's accurate.

How Some Rich Americans Are Getting Stimulus ‘Checks’ Averaging $1.7 Million

https://www.forbes.com/sites/shaharz.../#66b006ab665b
beats Communism or PC Dystopianism
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Old 15th April 2020, 10:29 AM   #109
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Originally Posted by rockysmith76 View Post
Not curb deaths, flatten the curve, and keep covid patients out of abortion clinic beds, when they could be repurposed.
Abortion clinics have nothing to do with Covid-19.

And yes. 'the left' is flattening the curve. 'The right' sends people out to packed churches.
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Old 15th April 2020, 10:39 AM   #110
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What's the Right doing other than whine about actions taken?

https://www.fox2detroit.com/news/ups...ation-gridlock

They're like children whining that mom won't let them go play outside during a hurricane.
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Old 15th April 2020, 10:41 AM   #111
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Originally Posted by rockysmith76 View Post
beats Communism or PC Dystopianism

Blimey. Mccarthy really did a job on you, didn't he? Or possibly on your parents who gave it to you.

Either way, top comment. Have a cookie.
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Old 15th April 2020, 10:42 AM   #112
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Originally Posted by Shalamar View Post
Abortion clinics have nothing to do with Covid-19.
.
Exactly my point for most of the thread.
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Old 15th April 2020, 10:46 AM   #113
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Originally Posted by rockysmith76 View Post
Exactly my point for most of the thread.
Then why are you so outraged that Abortion clinics are still open to provide services to the women that need them?
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Old 15th April 2020, 10:48 AM   #114
thaiboxerken
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Originally Posted by Shalamar View Post
Then why are you so outraged that Abortion clinics are still open to provide services to the women that need them?
I'm pretty sure he's outraged that they're allowed to be open at all, even prior to Trump's covid crisis.
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Old 15th April 2020, 10:50 AM   #115
kookbreaker
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Originally Posted by rockysmith76 View Post
Not curb deaths, flatten the curve, and keep covid patients out of abortion clinic beds, when they could be repurposed.
Nobody is going to be using those clinics for COVID19 patients.

Most abortion clinics don't even have many beds to begin with. Its mostly an outpatient procedure. Or do you think examination tables or gynocology exam chairs can be repurposed into critical care beds?

Did you even think this through before you went on this rant? Or do you honestly think that one medical resource is as the same as another?
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Old 15th April 2020, 10:50 AM   #116
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Originally Posted by Armitage72 View Post
The stupidity, it burns. According to Kellyanne Conway, it's called COVID-19 because there were 18 previous strains of the virus, so WHO should have been ready to deal with it by now.
Quote:
“This is COVID-19, not COVID-1, folks!” Conway said during an interview on “Fox & Friends.” “And so you would think the people in charge of the World Health Organization facts and figures should be on top of that right now.”
This is one of Kellyanne's 'alternative facts'. She is a great example of the quality of people that Trump surrounds himself with; someone who is willing to spin the truth/lie as long as it makes Trump look good.

But what was her motive for saying something so blatantly false? Could it possibly be to help Trump's attempts to pass blame from him to the WHO and thereby support Trump's decision to withhold funding to it? Nah...I'm just being way too cynical. Right?
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Old 15th April 2020, 10:54 AM   #117
Lurch
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Originally Posted by rockysmith76 View Post
better than being the one killing it, there are two lives involved after all. False nazification dully noted
I may be mistaken, but is it not the case that Nature (read: God for the believers) terminates more pregnancies than does Man?
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Old 15th April 2020, 10:57 AM   #118
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Originally Posted by rockysmith76 View Post
If it wasnt said on fox it didnt happen.
I can’t tell if you’re joking or not.

Which says a lot about the worldview of right wingers.
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Old 15th April 2020, 10:59 AM   #119
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Wake me up when we get to the gun store debate and why gun stores are open.
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Old 15th April 2020, 11:00 AM   #120
Stacyhs
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Originally Posted by kookbreaker View Post
Nobody is going to be using those clinics for COVID19 patients.

Most abortion clinics don't even have many beds to begin with. Its mostly an outpatient procedure. Or do you think examination tables or gynocology exam chairs can be repurposed into critical care beds?

Did you even think this through before you went on this rant? Or do you honestly think that one medical resource is as the same as another?
Some people just have a special talent for ignoring facts that don't agree with their beliefs. They are highly gifted at seeing things in absolutes of white/black. Gray is not a shade in their philosophy. For them 2+2= 5 and, damn it all, no one is going to convince them otherwise. Those that attempt to explain why 2+2=4 are the ones who have it wrong.
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