The One Covid-19 Science and Medicine Thread

[EHocking]

While we’re on the subject of food and it’s ultimate “outcome”.
Australia to test sewage for coronavirus as testing net widens

As the Federal Government ramps up its response to the coronavirus pandemic, what we flush down the toilet could soon play a role in tracking and stemming the spread of COVID-19.

The Government will use wastewater to monitor for localised COVID-19 outbreaks
Research suggests people may excrete virus material before they show symptoms
It is hoped the move will increase the Government's ability to quickly respond to outbreaks
Health Minister Greg Hunt has said Australia's sewage will soon be monitored for the presence of coronavirus, acting as an early warning sign for future outbreaks.

It's already used to detect illegal drug use in communities.

[Skeptic Ginger]

Originally Posted by William Parcher

US Food & Drug Administration (FDA) says that we don't need to sanitize the food packaging after we shop...

Shopping for Food During the COVID-19 Pandemic - Information for Consumers

https://www.fda.gov/food/food-safety...tion-consumers

Here we are again, here's what they said:

Quote:

Again, there is no evidence of food packaging being associated with the transmission of COVID-19. However, if you wish, you can wipe down product packaging and allow it to air dry, as an extra precaution.

No evidence, sure. Did anyone ******* look?

Of course not. Let's just assume it's OK because that's more convenient than saying, "we don't know."

Look what else they said:

Quote:

Before eating, rinse fresh fruits and vegetables under running tap water, including those with skins and rinds that are not eaten. Scrub firm produce with a clean produce brush. For canned goods, remember to clean lids before opening.

When unpacking groceries, refrigerate or freeze meat, poultry, eggs, seafood, and other perishables—like berries, lettuce, herbs, and mushrooms—within 2 hours of purchasing.

So scrub down the outside of groceries but don't worry about the outer containers.

As for refrigerate or freeze within 2 hours? This virus survives longer frozen. No mention of that or of careful handling of frozen packages when you take them out of the freezer. I suppose they are worrying about standard other pathogens.

This could easily turn out to be the same as asymptomatic spread. Public health and other related sources said over and over, no asymptomatic spread. Now all of a sudden they act like they just discovered it.

[Skeptic Ginger]

Originally Posted by Beelzebuddy

https://icite.od.nih.gov/covid19/sea...0d75486c6772a5

What are we supposed to do with that list?

[Skeptic Ginger]

Originally Posted by The Atheist

Not this one, but there's actually an enormous amount of study has been done it.

Here's one lengthy study: https://www.karger.com/Article/Fulltext/484899

The tl;dr version is:

Salt water vastly increases the breakdown of the lipid envelope.

So fish probably won't catch it.

I couldn't find that in the article. Can you find the quote? Thanks.

I want to know if I should wash my lettuce in salt water.

[Skeptic Ginger]

Originally Posted by novaphile

It doesn't matter how often this is repeated, it will be ignored.

It should be. See my post above. Have you every breathed through your mouth? That ought to tell you there is a connection.

[Skeptic Ginger]

[side note] Sorry, SG is fuming again. I'll take a break now. [/side note]

[EHocking]

Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger

I couldn't find that in the article. Can you find the quote? Thanks.

I want to know if I should wash my lettuce in salt water.

Probably not. Running water can do the job fairly well.
ll this seems to stem from online advice that washing removes pesticides - and just seems to have been extrapolated to include COVID-19.

[portlandatheist]

This article has a unique exit strategy for the quarantine:
Split the population into two groups that alternate between lockdown and routine activity in weekly succession
https://www.israel21c.org/researcher...xiting-corona/

Quote:

“Consider an individual who became infected during their active week. They are now in their pre-symptomatic period – the most dangerous stage, in which they are invisible spreaders. According to the alternating lockdown routine they are now scheduled to enter their lockdown phase,” explained Barzel.
Bar-Ilan University’s Dr. Baruch Barzel. Photo: courtesy

“Staying at home for another week, they will most likely begin to exhibit symptoms, and therefore remain in isolation until full recovery. Indeed, if following a week of lockdown they show no symptoms, they are most likely uninfected and can partake in social and professional activities during their active week. Therefore, alternating lockdown with full isolation of symptomatic spreaders ensures that at all times, the majority of invisible spreaders are inactive, as their incubation period is naturally directed towards their lockdown phase.”

Its an interesting idea but I haven't heard of anybody actually considering this approach.

[pipelineaudio]

Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger

So scrub down the outside of groceries but don't worry about the outer containers.

Thank you, I think this really gets down to the root of my confusion...sooooooooooo much about not touching your mouth. dont touch your mouth! But go ahead and put stuff other people touched in your mouth no problem.

Food is no problem, but the packaging that you wont eat....is

Dont worry about the food, but let the containers sit in the sun for a few hours for safety

[Planigale]

Originally Posted by Dr.Sid

As long as people can get or make masks easily, I don't see how it can hurt. If anything it shows you care to people you meet.
Here it's mandatory over a month. And from beginning it was well obeyed. Not so much these days, people just think it's over. Crowd immunity ? Great thing, but I'll pass as long as it's possible.
Speaking is not exactly coughing in each others faces, but not far from it.

I think this may be an issue, when supplies of masks are limited, there is a desire to prioritise those at highest risk, healthcare staff, care staff. If suddenly the whole population is using masks then it means fewer for those who need them most. When there are limited supplies of e.g. eye protection, should staff in supermarkets be using visors (especially when behind plastic screens). Teaching staff are wanting PPE when schools reopen which are likely to be one of the early things to re-open.

My guess is once supplies are reliable then there will be a more formal move to encourage public use of masks in enclosed areas. I am not sure the evidence supports and benefit in the open air.

[Skeptic Ginger]

Originally Posted by Planigale

I think this may be an issue, when supplies of masks are limited, there is a desire to prioritise those at highest risk, healthcare staff, care staff. If suddenly the whole population is using masks then it means fewer for those who need them most. When there are limited supplies of e.g. eye protection, should staff in supermarkets be using visors (especially when behind plastic screens). Teaching staff are wanting PPE when schools reopen which are likely to be one of the early things to re-open.

My guess is once supplies are reliable then there will be a more formal move to encourage public use of masks in enclosed areas. I am not sure the evidence supports and benefit in the open air.

Around here that has been solved by people making and using their own non-medically approved masks. Considering the goal is to stop infected but asymptomatic people from spreading the virus, it is very useful to use cloth masks. Many of the masks are even washable. People may believe they are protecting themselves, and to a small degree they are. But if everyone wears masks in public, combined with hand washing, we can really stop a lot of spread.

[Planigale]

Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger

Around here that has been solved by people making and using their own non-medically approved masks. Considering the goal is to stop infected but asymptomatic people from spreading the virus, it is very useful to use cloth masks. Many of the masks are even washable. People may believe they are protecting themselves, and to a small degree they are. But if everyone wears masks in public, combined with hand washing, we can really stop a lot of spread.

Yes, people making their own is good. Once it became public policy then people might expect that there would be provision of 'approved' masks, there would be a demand for free provision for the poor or disabled who were unable to manufacture their own masks. In the US where their is less expectation of public assistance and more on personal reliance then expecting people to make or buy their own masks would probably be acceptable, in the UK there would be an expectation for a significant state provision. E.g. making and posting out 7 masks a week to everyone (ie 420,000,000 masks a week) is an enormous logistic issue. If we are going for re-usable masks then we need a policy on daily cleaning. Cloth masks that could be boil cleaned nightly, hung out to dry, and used the next day might be the best solution.

[Ulf Nereng]

Originally Posted by Planigale

Yes, people making their own is good. Once it became public policy then people might expect that there would be provision of 'approved' masks, there would be a demand for free provision for the poor or disabled who were unable to manufacture their own masks. In the US where their is less expectation of public assistance and more on personal reliance then expecting people to make or buy their own masks would probably be acceptable, in the UK there would be an expectation for a significant state provision. E.g. making and posting out 7 masks a week to everyone (ie 420,000,000 masks a week) is an enormous logistic issue. If we are going for re-usable masks then we need a policy on daily cleaning. Cloth masks that could be boil cleaned nightly, hung out to dry, and used the next day might be the best solution.

With so much of the rest of the economy going bust there could be a new industry making masks. There used to be a large industry making hats, why not have one making masks? Designer masks, even! Where is the fashion industry?

[The Atheist]

Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger

As for refrigerate or freeze within 2 hours? This virus survives longer frozen

My god, that is spectacularly stupid - there are so many studies showing freezing is pointless with cornaaviruses. What are these people on?

Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger

I couldn't find that in the article. Can you find the quote? Thanks.

I want to know if I should wash my lettuce in salt water.

Between notes 34 & 35:

Quote:

Infectious hematopoietic necrosis virus remained stable for at least 5 days in sterile seawater at 8-12°C, but lost 5 log units in the same time in raw water [32]. In nonsterile tap water, the inactivation of avian reoviruses was approximately 4 times faster than in sterile tap water

There's a whole lot more, but it looks to me like it's much longer immersion than washing it, so probably not relevant for washing lettuce.

[pipelineaudio]

Originally Posted by Planigale

I think this may be an issue, when supplies of masks are limited, there is a desire to prioritise those at highest risk, healthcare staff, care staff. If suddenly the whole population is using masks then it means fewer for those who need them most.

For the four billionth time, and please tell fake doctor Mike Tyson surgeon general guy too...no, we're making our own masks that can't be normally used by medical stuff

[pipelineaudio]

Originally Posted by Loss Leader

Multiple threads have been opened in this Science section regarding the novel corona virus. They cross each other frequently, making it difficult to decide in which thread a comment should go. This thread has been opened for all discussions of the science, math, medicine and technology related to our current pandemic. All other threads have been closed. The threads have not been merged because it would create a chaos of cross-talk and confused timelines. However, members should feel free to quote from those closed threads and continue those discussions here. Thank you.

Posted By:Loss Leader

This is a great idea, can you do it with the four trillion trump threads as well?

[Samson]

Originally Posted by Ulf Nereng

With so much of the rest of the economy going bust there could be a new industry making masks. There used to be a large industry making hats, why not have one making masks? Designer masks, even! Where is the fashion industry?

That occured to me.
The wearing and design would be uber cool. A new anxiety for youth may be a downside.
Star bellied sneetches comes to mind.

[dann]

Originally Posted by Ulf Nereng

Where is the fashion industry?

That is just soooooo early April!
Coronavirus couture: the rise of the $60 designer face mask (Guardian, April 7, 2020)
Face-Mask Fashion In The Coronavirus Age (RadioFreeEurope, April 2, 2020)

[Ulf Nereng]

Originally Posted by dann

That is just soooooo early April!
Coronavirus couture: the rise of the $60 designer face mask (Guardian, April 7, 2020)
Face-Mask Fashion In The Coronavirus Age (RadioFreeEurope, April 2, 2020)

I love the mask that police officer in Colombia is wearing!

[DevilsAdvocate]

Originally Posted by William Parcher

US Food & Drug Administration (FDA) says that we don't need to sanitize the food packaging after we shop...


Shopping for Food During the COVID-19 Pandemic - Information for Consumers



https://www.fda.gov/food/food-safety...tion-consumers

That is ridiculous. Sure, there is no evidence. Would we expect that somehow someone has traced a case of covid specifically back to touching some piece of packaged food?

It says wash your hands when you come home. Then put away the packed food. Then wash your hands again. Why? The only reason to wash your hands after handling the packed food would be because there could be virus on the packed food. And you could get the virus from handling that packed food. If you couldn't, then there would be no reason for them to say you should then wash your hands.

I know this coronavirus is respiratory and not gastrointestinal. I'm not going to eat the food packaging. If I were eating the cans and plastic containers that package food, I would have more to worry about than this virus.

This is some ridiculous propaganda.

[Belz...]

Originally Posted by William Parcher

No.

I saw lots of pictures of the big beach crowds in Jacksonville. Nobody is in the water. Sharks.

Isn't water the whole point of going to the beach?

[Squeegee Beckenheim]

Originally Posted by William Parcher

US Food & Drug Administration (FDA) says that we don't need to sanitize the food packaging after we shop...


Shopping for Food During the COVID-19 Pandemic - Information for Consumers



https://www.fda.gov/food/food-safety...tion-consumers

Well, we know that it can live on some surfaces for up to three days. We also know that it can go from a surface to your hands to your face if you're not careful. It seems like a credible vector of infection.

More to the point, that says that there is no evidence that it can be transmitted from food packaging. That doesn't mean that it can't be transmitted from food packaging, it means that if it is then there is as yet no evidence to support it. Given how little is still known about this virus and how it is transmitted, I wouldn't take this as a blanket statement that it's 100% fine to lick your Amazon delivery. This is especially true since the one sure thing that can be said about cases is that a lot of them are as yet undetected/unreported.

IOW - I think it's probably wiser at this stage to take some basic precautions when handling new objects that have come in to your home, particularly as it's neither difficult nor onerous to do so.

[Squeegee Beckenheim]

Originally Posted by Dr.Sid

As long as people can get or make masks easily, I don't see how it can hurt.

It can hurt in a couple of ways. The most stupid is people who wear them thinking it makes them and others invincible and ignoring all social distancing rules.

But the thing that I don't see being hammered home enough in the media is that the masks can be a transmission vector themselves. You need to wash the mask after you've used it, and wash your hands before putting it on and taking it off. And don't touch it once it is on. It can encourage face-touching just by being uncomfortable.

As an addendum to the above - they're a temporary thing. Once any droplets that the mask catches have evaporated, the virus is left on the mask, and viruses are small enough to be drawn through the cloth by your breath. So if you have it on for too long, then it can be a way to funnel the virus directly in to your mouth and nose.

Masks can be effective, but without people understanding masks and using them correctly, they have the potential to be dangerous.

[angrysoba]

Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger

[side note] Sorry, SG is fuming again. I'll take a break now. [/side note]

Good to have you back, by the way!

[angrysoba]

Originally Posted by Squeegee Beckenheim

It can hurt in a couple of ways. The most stupid is people who wear them thinking it makes them and others invincible and ignoring all social distancing rules.

But the thing that I don't see being hammered home enough in the media is that the masks can be a transmission vector themselves. You need to wash the mask after you've used it, and wash your hands before putting it on and taking it off. And don't touch it once it is on. It can encourage face-touching just by being uncomfortable.

As an addendum to the above - they're a temporary thing. Once any droplets that the mask catches have evaporated, the virus is left on the mask, and viruses are small enough to be drawn through the cloth by your breath. So if you have it on for too long, then it can be a way to funnel the virus directly in to your mouth and nose.

Masks can be effective, but without people understanding masks and using them correctly, they have the potential to be dangerous.

Absolutely! And this is why with mask-wearing, education is important. How to wear, and look after, a mask is as important as how to wash your hands. Plenty of people think they know how to wash their hands, but have been learning recently that their way of washing their hands was completely inadequate.

What is still wrong, though, imho, is promoting the idea that masks are completely ineffective. It seems that the evidence goes against that!

[Squeegee Beckenheim]

Originally Posted by novaphile

It doesn't matter how often this is repeated, it will be ignored.

I'd have thought that there was a risk in the mouth in the same way that there is in the nose - there's a mucus membrane there. If the mouth can be a potential vector for the cold (which it can), then I see no reason why it can't be a vector for this coronavirus.

[Squeegee Beckenheim]

Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger

This virus survives longer frozen.

I've seen conflicting reports on this. One expert said that it could survive up to two years in a freezer, and another said that it's possible that the freezing/thawing process would kill it.

As per my post above, I think that caution is warranted in the case of an unknown such as this.

As for putting stuff in the fridge, I've definitely heard an expert say that the cold, damp conditions of a fridge are exactly the kind of environment that coronaviruses like. So I'd say it's probably wise to clean things before you stick them in the fridge.

[Samson]

I have been thinking.
These cases like the choir, where 45 of 60 were receptors, yet it is unlikely more than one came with the virus, did the lungs absorb and transmit on an industrial scale?
Similarly at dinner parties, weddings and crowded bars.

One infector, but major recycling in one 2 hour session in enclosed space.

[Tero]

Yeah but the mask prevents the stupid people from touching their mouth and nose. So it's some use there.

I wear disposable gloves grocery shopping now that it got warmer and my outdoor gloves stay in the car. I never touch my face with them, as I used to wear them at work weighing chemicals so I would never touch my face. I used to figure out a way to use my wrist for some things, if I really needed my hand near my head.

[angrysoba]

Originally Posted by Tero

Yeah but the mask prevents the stupid people from touching their mouth and nose. So it's some use there.

It also stops droplets.

Originally Posted by Tero

I wear disposable gloves grocery shopping now that it got warmer and my outdoor gloves stay in the car. I never touch my face with them, as I used to wear them at work weighing chemicals so I would never touch my face. I used to figure out a way to use my wrist for some things, if I really needed my hand near my head.

Yeah, but gloves make people think they are invincible and gives them a false sense of security etc...etc...

/sameargument

[Squeegee Beckenheim]

I have seen advice against gloves. The argument is that your skin's natural secretions can help the virus' lipids to break down, whereas rubber gloves just transmit it from place to place.

How true that is I don't know.

[William Parcher]

Originally Posted by Belz...

Isn't water the whole point of going to the beach?

I think that beaches have different "points" for different people.

[William Parcher]

Originally Posted by DevilsAdvocate

This is some ridiculous propaganda.

I posted the FDA article because of its self-contradictions. Also that it used "no evidence" as an equivalent to "does not occur".

[Speedskater]

Originally Posted by William Parcher

Within a half hour of re-opening the Jacksonville, Florida beaches there were thousands of people there.

That beach appears to be 33 miles long and 330 feet wide (from Google Maps).
Theoretically you could have well over one million people on that beach and still maintain social distancing.

[William Parcher]

Originally Posted by Samson

I have been thinking.
These cases like the choir, where 45 of 60 were receptors, yet it is unlikely more than one came with the virus, did the lungs absorb and transmit on an industrial scale?
Similarly at dinner parties, weddings and crowded bars.

One infector, but major recycling in one 2 hour session in enclosed space.

I don't recall where this information came from or how it was determined that only one choir singer was infected. Was the prevalence of asymptomatic spreaders as well known back then as it is now?

[William Parcher]

Originally Posted by Speedskater

That beach appears to be 33 miles long and 330 feet wide (from Google Maps).
Theoretically you could have well over one million people on that beach and still maintain social distancing.

I don't know if the entirety of the Jacksonville beaches were re-opened. The photos I saw of the crowds seemed to show improper social distancing. Yes, the photos show a crowded beach.

[Twoflower]

Originally Posted by Squeegee Beckenheim

I have seen advice against gloves. The argument is that your skin's natural secretions can help the virus' lipids to break down, whereas rubber gloves just transmit it from place to place.

How true that is I don't know.

I believe it was a quote from Chris Smith (doctor)
Consultant virologist, broadcaster
Chris Smith - "the Naked Scientist" - is a British consultant virologist and a lecturer based at Cambridge University where he is a fellow of Queens' College. He is also a science radio broadcaster and writer, and presents the Naked Scientists, a programme which he founded in 2001, for BBC Radio and other networks internationally, as well as 5 live Science on BBC Radio 5 Live.

[TellyKNeasuss]

Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger

Around here that has been solved by people making and using their own non-medically approved masks. Considering the goal is to stop infected but asymptomatic people from spreading the virus, it is very useful to use cloth masks. Many of the masks are even washable. People may believe they are protecting themselves, and to a small degree they are. But if everyone wears masks in public, combined with hand washing, we can really stop a lot of spread.

There seems to be a significant possibility that wearing face masks might turn out to be the most significant thing that we can do to slow the spread, which is "interesting" since, at least in the US, governments for 2 months claimed that wearing face masks was at best useless and at worse would increase the chance of getting infected. Most of the recent writings have been that only a small percentage of transmission has occurred from people touching contaminated surfaces, but in a month "they" could go back to saying that it is a significant means of transmission.

[casebro]

SOooo many of these discussions will become moot as soon as we get the results of serology tests done on random sampling of exposed subjects. Due out tomorrow.

I suggest you all take today off, save your resources for discussing the first real facts regarding transmissibtlity and IFR for the mass herd of sheeple.

Then maybe we can discuss the risk factors. Like the comorbidity list of nine diseases that seems to leave off "lives in confined quarters with others with the same co-moralities". Or age. Because so many of the listed risk factors occur together they are probably measuring the same thing. Or maybe it's forced air ventilation, like Legionnaire's disease?

[JeanTate]

Originally Posted by casebro

SOooo many of these discussions will become moot as soon as we get the results of serology tests done on random sampling of exposed subjects. Due out tomorrow.

Which tests will these be?

Where will the results be published?

Quote:

I suggest you all take today off, save your resources for discussing the first real facts regarding transmissibtlity and IFR for the mass herd of sheeple.

Then maybe we can discuss the risk factors. Like the comorbidity list of nine diseases that seems to leave off "lives in confined quarters with others with the same co-moralities". Or age. Because so many of the listed risk factors occur together they are probably measuring the same thing. Or maybe it's forced air ventilation, like Legionnaire's disease?

Serological test results will certainly add to the knowledge we have about SARS-COV-2 and covid-19.