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Tags Ahmaud Arbery , Georgia incidents , Gregory McMichael , prosecutorial misconduct , racism charges , racism incidents , shooting incidents , Travis McMichael , William Bryan

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Old 7th May 2020, 09:14 PM   #361
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Originally Posted by Ranb View Post
So you're a witness to the victim's "crimes" and will testify that you knew his state of mind?
Originally Posted by Ranb View Post
Or maybe he was out for a jog?
Quote:
"Waycross District Attorney George Barnhill wrote that there is video of Arbery "burglarizing a home immediately preceding the chase and confrontation""
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shooting_of_Ahmaud_Arbery
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Old 7th May 2020, 09:15 PM   #362
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Originally Posted by Skeptic Tank View Post
In neither case were the deceased "defending themselves against an armed assailant"

Both Trayvon and Ahmaud knew exactly what their targets were: snitches. Not threats. Snitches. The attacks in both cases were retaliation for trying to get them busted.
Busted for what? You realize being black isn't actually a crime, right?
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Old 7th May 2020, 09:17 PM   #363
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Originally Posted by arthwollipot View Post
Let's be clear. This was not self-defence. The two white guys actively hunted the man. They decided that he had been doing something wrong, they decided to take action, and they decided that he deserved to die.

Fortunately for them, they are now able to avail themselves of the criminal justice system - something they denied to their victim.
What facts/evidence have convinced you that their story isn't true?

Their claim is that they loaded up to go confront this guy and try to buy time in doing so for the police to arrive and question him / arrest him - and that he then reacted in an unexpectedly rapid and violent way which necessitated a self-defense shooting.

What's disproving that in your mind? The video supports it. The lack of pre-hysteria charges supports it.
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Old 7th May 2020, 09:18 PM   #364
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Originally Posted by Skeptic Tank View Post
Quote:
"Waycross District Attorney George Barnhill wrote that there is video of Arbery "burglarizing a home immediately preceding the chase and confrontation""
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shooting_of_Ahmaud_Arbery
Just because the DA wrote it doesn't mean it's true.

And let's face it. You can't trust someone who seriously uses the word "burglarized".
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Old 7th May 2020, 09:21 PM   #365
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Originally Posted by Skeptic Tank View Post
I don't think someone legally carrying a firearm and going to legally attempt to detain someone they believe has just committed a crime
Here's you're first problem, it isn't legal to detain a person you suspect of committing a crime in Georgia, unless that crime is a felony and the person is trying to escape. There is no evidence of either of these requirements in this case. In fact there is no evidence of Arbey breaking the law at all, let alone committing a felony. So rather than a legal attempt to detain, they were engaged in an illegal felony themselves, an attempted unlawful detention.
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Old 7th May 2020, 09:28 PM   #366
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And just for the cherry on top, aggressively pointing a gun at someone in Georgia is considered Aggravated Assault, because it's a simple assault while using a deadly weapon, and when a death occurs during an Aggravated Assault, that's considered a death during an inherently dangerous Felony, which means that the death is a Felony Murder.

Yeah, short of Jury nullification on this, they are going to jail for a long time.
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Old 7th May 2020, 09:32 PM   #367
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Originally Posted by Skeptic Tank View Post
....and that he then reacted in an unexpectedly rapid and violent way which necessitated a self-defense shooting.
Since when is a person expected to fold like a lawn chair when confronted with armed men who possibly intend to harm?
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Old 7th May 2020, 09:40 PM   #368
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Originally Posted by Ranb View Post
Since when is a person expected to fold like a lawn chair when confronted with armed men who possibly intend to harm?
His argument is basically that if a black person attempts to defend themselves against a white person holding a gun, then it's the acceptable to pull the trigger and kill them.


Of course it'd be interesting to see the knots people like said poster would tie themselves in where this a case of several black guys with gun who tried to illegally detain and then ended up shooting a white guy who was jogging through their neighbourhood because they believed he was the guy seen wandering about a building site on security footage.
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Old 7th May 2020, 09:41 PM   #369
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From letter the DA wrote:

Quote:
"I appreciate there is immediate pressure on your department as to the issue of 'arrest'

----

It is my professional belief the autopsy confirms what we had already viewed as shown in the video tape, with the photographs & from the witness statements taken immediately at the scene. The autopsy supports the initial opinion we gave you on February 24th, 2020 at the briefing room in the Glynn County Police Department after reviewing the evidence you had at the time. We do not see grounds for an arrest of any of the three parties.

It appears Travis McMichael, Greg McMichael, and Bryan William were following, in 'hot pursuit', a burglary suspect, with solid first hand probable cause, in their neighborhood, and asking/telling him to stop. It appears their intent was to stop and hold this criminal suspect until law enforcement arrived. Under Georgia Law this is perfectly legal.

It clearly appears Travis McMichael and Greg McMichael had firearms being carried in an open fashion. The investigation shows neither of them to be convicted felons or under felony supervision, they were in a motor vehicle owned by Travis McMichael. Under Georgia Law this is legal open carry.

The video made by William Bryan clearly shows the shooting in real time. From said video it appears Ahmaud Arbery was running along the right side of the McMichael truck then abruptly turns 90 degrees to the left and attacks Travis McMichael who was standing at the front left corner of the truck. A brief skirmish ensues in which it appears Arbery strikes McMichael and appears to grab the shotgun and pull it from McMichael. The 1st shot is through Arbery's right hand palm which is consistent with him grabbing and pulling the shotgun at the barrel tip, the 2nd and 3rd wounds are consistent with the struggle for the shotgun as depicted in the video, the angle of the 2nd shot with the rear of the buttstock being pushed away and down from teh right are also consistent with the upward angle of blood plume shown in the video and that McMichael was attempting to push the gun away from Arbery while Arbery was pulling it toward himself. The 3rd shot too appears to be in a struggle over the gun. The angle of the shots and the video show this was from the beginning or almost immediately became -- a fight over the shotgun.

Given the fact Arbery initiated the fight, at the point Arbery grabbed the shotgun, under Georgia Law, McMichael was allowed to use deadly force to protect himself.

Just as importantly, while we know McMichael had his finger on the trigger, we do not know who caused the firings. ...

... Arbery's mental health records & prior convictions help explain his apparent aggressive nature and his possible thought pattern to attack an armed man."

Last edited by Skeptic Tank; 7th May 2020 at 09:43 PM.
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Old 7th May 2020, 09:43 PM   #370
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"Waycross District Attorney George Barnhill wrote that there is video of Arbery "burglarizing a home immediately preceding the chase and confrontation""
Originally Posted by Skeptic Tank View Post
So you're that sure about the burglary? I have not read about anyone who claims Arbery stole or damaged property while in the buildling he was alleged to have entered. Without intent to commit a crime, the unlawful entry of a home or other building does not mean burglary in Georgia.

https://statelaws.findlaw.com/georgi...lary-laws.html
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Old 7th May 2020, 09:46 PM   #371
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Like I said earlier, in what jurisdiction is the death penalty appropriate for trespassing?
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Old 7th May 2020, 09:47 PM   #372
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Quote:
Just as importantly, while we know McMichael had his finger on the trigger, we do not know who caused the firings. ...
I thought everyone knew the person holding the damn gun is responsible for how it operated? Even the most borish anti-gun idiots (including on this forum) know this. Why are you taking the lame "gun owner not responsible for his own actions" position?
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Old 7th May 2020, 09:48 PM   #373
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Originally Posted by arthwollipot View Post
Like I said earlier, in what jurisdiction is the death penalty appropriate for trespassing?
He was not shot for trespassing, nor for being black, nor for going for a jog.

He was shot because he attacked, punched, and tried to take the firearm of a man who (legally) confronted him.
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Old 7th May 2020, 10:10 PM   #374
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Originally Posted by Skeptic Tank View Post
All I know is that I can already tell that the day these guys get acquitted is going to be one of the more enjoyable anguish-harvests I've had since 2016.

https://i.imgur.com/dvCQfVR.png



So how did your prediction of the Amber Guyger trial work out?
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Old 7th May 2020, 10:11 PM   #375
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Originally Posted by Skeptic Tank View Post
He was not shot for trespassing, nor for being black, nor for going for a jog.

He was shot because he attacked, punched, and tried to take the firearm of a man who (legally) confronted him.
If he wasn’t actually wearing the junior deputy badge he got from the Cheerios box he is going to prison.

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Old 7th May 2020, 10:19 PM   #376
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Originally Posted by Skeptic Tank View Post
He was not shot for trespassing, nor for being black, nor for going for a jog.

He was shot because he attacked, punched, and tried to take the firearm of a man who (legally) confronted him.
I thought we'd already established that brandishing a firearm is not legal.
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Old 7th May 2020, 10:29 PM   #377
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Originally Posted by Skeptic Tank View Post
I get the DA's argument, but he left off a complete picture of things I would like to know.

Suppose I know I'm innocent. For a cop,there is a presumption that a cop will not arrest without probable cause and there just isn't that many cops out there. Am I required to turn myself over for every person that yells citizens arrest at me?

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Old 7th May 2020, 10:30 PM   #378
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Originally Posted by arthwollipot View Post
I thought we'd already established that brandishing a firearm is not legal.
And as the DA correctly pointed out, they were acting legally and therefore not brandishing.
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Old 7th May 2020, 10:37 PM   #379
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Originally Posted by Elagabalus View Post


So how did your prediction of the Amber Guyger trial work out?

Well let me guess! He didn't predict 10 years in jail?
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Old 7th May 2020, 10:38 PM   #380
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Originally Posted by BobTheCoward View Post
And as the DA correctly pointed out, they were acting legally and therefore not brandishing.
For a start, that's a circular argument. Second, doesn't the video show that they were brandishing?
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Old 7th May 2020, 10:40 PM   #381
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Originally Posted by Skeptic Tank View Post
Interesting the bits if the article you left out... such as the DA that wrote the letter being one of those that had to recuse themselves because of personal connections to the defendants. Also that...

Quote:
Action News Jax has looked into Arbery’s criminal history, and it doesn’t include any violent offenses. Action News Jax contacted his attorney and he said Arbery doesn’t have a history of mental issues.
which the DA claimed he did.

also....

Quote:
Action News Jax law and safety expert Dale Carson said he finds Barnhill’s letter unusual.

“The entire letter is based on the presumption that the individuals that engaged in the shooting, was engaged in a criminal act before he was chased down,” Carson said.

He said no one has provided proof of that.
By which I would suggest was meant to mean....

“The entire letter is based on the presumption that the individual that was involved in the shooting, was engaged in a criminal act before he was chased down”

Also it is clear that those that did the chasing did not witness a crime being committed...

Quote:
According to the police report, Gregory McMichael and Travis McMichael told police they believed Arbery was the person committing burglaries in their neighborhood, Satilla Shores. When they saw him running past their home on a Sunday afternoon, they grabbed their guns and went after him.
Again, their own words show that the attempted detention was not legal. You can't just grab your gun and go after someone you think might have, perhaps been the guy you think might have perhaps been committing some crime. That's not a citizen's arrest, that's an unlawful detention.
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Old 7th May 2020, 10:41 PM   #382
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Originally Posted by BobTheCoward View Post
And as the DA correctly pointed out, they were acting legally and therefore not brandishing.
No they were not acting legally. PhantomWolf has explained this thoroughly, referring to the Laws on the State of Georgia

http://www.internationalskeptics.com...&postcount=138
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Old 7th May 2020, 10:42 PM   #383
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Originally Posted by arthwollipot View Post
For a start, that's a circular argument. Second, doesn't the video show that they were brandishing?
If they are engaging in a citizens arrest, they likely then enter the rules around law enforcement unholstering weapons....which often sides with law enforcement.
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Old 7th May 2020, 10:45 PM   #384
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Originally Posted by BobTheCoward View Post
And as the DA correctly pointed out, they were acting legally and therefore not brandishing.
If only there was an organisation that had mobile trained officials that they could have called in to deal with the situation.
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Old 7th May 2020, 10:46 PM   #385
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Originally Posted by smartcooky View Post
No they were not acting legally. PhantomWolf has explained this thoroughly, referring to the Laws on the State of Georgia

http://www.internationalskeptics.com...&postcount=138
I disagree, and it is an unresolvable debate. I doubt neither phantomwolf nor I would accept the outcome of court case in the south where a white man murdered a black man as an experiment to prove our respective interpretations.
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Old 7th May 2020, 10:48 PM   #386
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Originally Posted by Sideroxylon View Post
If only there was an organisation that had mobile trained officials that they could have called in to deal with the situation.
Irrelevant....the George Zimmerman case demonstrates well that the cases are far more narrow and don't look more broadly at general actions.
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Old 7th May 2020, 10:49 PM   #387
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Originally Posted by BobTheCoward View Post
If they are engaging in a citizens arrest, they likely then enter the rules around law enforcement unholstering weapons....which often sides with law enforcement.
The problem is that they weren't complying with Georgia Law in their attempt. The law doesn't allow you to see someone jogging down the road and decide they might have been committing a crime so you can get your gun and run them down in your pickup to confront and point your guns at them.

It gives the right to prevent a person leaving the scene of a crime you witness, or to prevent a suspect to a felony from escaping the crime scene. This is not what happened.
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Old 7th May 2020, 10:53 PM   #388
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Originally Posted by BobTheCoward View Post
Irrelevant....the George Zimmerman case demonstrates well that the cases are far more narrow and don't look more broadly at general actions.
True. Untrained members of the public with guns, no legal training, and no HR psychological screening, stopping anyone on their own initiative. What could go wrong?
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Old 7th May 2020, 10:55 PM   #389
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Originally Posted by PhantomWolf View Post
The problem is that they weren't complying with Georgia Law in their attempt. The law doesn't allow you to see someone jogging down the road and decide they might have been committing a crime so you can get your gun and run them down in your pickup to confront and point your guns at them.

It gives the right to prevent a person leaving the scene of a crime you witness, or to prevent a suspect to a felony from escaping the crime scene. This is not what happened.
The standards for "reasonable" and "probable" are such **** in this country that what they saw is going to be "correctly" interpreted as reasonable perception that they had firsthand knowledge of a crime.
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Old 7th May 2020, 10:56 PM   #390
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Originally Posted by Sideroxylon View Post
True. Untrained members of the public with guns, no legal training, and no HR psychological screening, stopping anyone on their own initiative. What could go wrong?
Odd response. Do you think I'm making a normative argument?
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Old 7th May 2020, 10:57 PM   #391
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Originally Posted by Sideroxylon View Post
True. Untrained members of the public with guns, no legal training, and no HR psychological screening, stopping anyone on their own initiative. What could go wrong?
Yeah - it's not like anyone's life is at stake.
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Old 7th May 2020, 10:58 PM   #392
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Originally Posted by BobTheCoward View Post
I disagree, and it is an unresolvable debate. I doubt neither phantomwolf nor I would accept the outcome of court case in the south where a white man murdered a black man as an experiment to prove our respective interpretations.
It's unresolvable in the sense that you're not willing to admit that you're wrong.

It's not unresolvable in the sense that it's possible to show logically, based on the law and the facts of the case, that you're wrong, as has already been done in this thread.
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Old 7th May 2020, 11:01 PM   #393
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Regardless of protestations, they have been arrested, they have been charged, and they are going to court. The court will decide whether what they did was legal or not.
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Old 7th May 2020, 11:08 PM   #394
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Originally Posted by BobTheCoward View Post
Odd response. Do you think I'm making a normative argument?
I have no opinion on that. Just making my own normative claim that the citizens arrest scenario being floated is pants-on-head crazy.
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Old 7th May 2020, 11:09 PM   #395
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NYT: 2 Suspects Charged With Murder in Ahmaud Arbery Shooting
Quote:
Gregory McMichael and Travis McMichael were arrested in connection with the killing of Mr. Arbery, which had led to protests in Georgia.
Guess the new prosecutor decided not to wait for that Grand Jury.

Quote:
The case is the latest in the United States to raise concerns about racial inequities in the justice system. Documents obtained by The New York Times show that a Georgia prosecutor who had the case for weeks before recusing himself over a conflict of interest had advised the Glynn County Police Department that there was “insufficient probable cause” to issue arrest warrants for the McMichaels.
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Privatize the profits and socialize the losses. It's the American way. That's how Mnuchin got rich. Worse, he did it on the backs of elderly people who had been conned into reverse mortgages. Mnuchin paid zero, took on the debt then taxpayers bailed him out.

Space Force.
Because feeding poor people is socialism.

Last edited by Skeptic Ginger; 7th May 2020 at 11:14 PM.
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Old 7th May 2020, 11:14 PM   #396
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Originally Posted by arthwollipot View Post
Regardless of protestations, they have been arrested, they have been charged, and they are going to court. The court will decide whether what they did was legal or not.
A socially agreed convention to publicly try the cases and be judged by your peers, presided over by legal experts? What a grand notion.
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Old 7th May 2020, 11:16 PM   #397
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Originally Posted by Sideroxylon View Post
A socially agreed convention to publicly try the cases and be judged by your peers, presided over by legal experts? What a grand notion.
Yep. Something that was denied to their victim.
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Old 7th May 2020, 11:27 PM   #398
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Originally Posted by arthwollipot View Post
Yep. Something that was denied to their victim.
Innocent until proven guilty in a court of law or executed by any old arse hole with a gun.
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Old 7th May 2020, 11:28 PM   #399
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Originally Posted by Sideroxylon View Post
Innocent until proven guilty in a court of law or executed by any old arse hole with a gun.
I think you mean "lynched".
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Old 7th May 2020, 11:35 PM   #400
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No matter what you think of the video or the event as you currently understand them, every decent person has to find the idea of murder charges being filed because of celebrity attention and public outcry chilling.
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