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Tags court cases , donald trump , Michael Flynn , perjury cases , Robert Mueller , William Barr

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Old 11th May 2020, 05:51 PM   #201
Lurch
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Originally Posted by Stacyhs View Post
Nope. I said "hopefully". I've learned not to bet on anything Trump related after the 2016 election. If that orange POS can be elected president, nothing is impossible.
With his apparent confidence in Judge Sullivan's acquiescence, Zig would seem to share your fear (which is his hope?) that indeed injustice will prevail.

I'm on unremitting tenterhooks about the election--and I'm not American. Trump will cheat. His cult seems to be largely unmovable. New and fantastical CTs are springing up like mushrooms. The Russian trolls are going gangbusters. Amash wades in as a very potential spoiler. Will the Bernie Bros see sense? Will too many citizens sit it out?
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Old 11th May 2020, 06:09 PM   #202
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Originally Posted by Stacyhs View Post
Nope. I said "hopefully". I've learned not to bet on anything Trump related after the 2016 election. If that orange POS can be elected president, nothing is impossible.
If the judge dismisses the case (as I think she will), would you conclude that she's a Trump crony? Or will you consider that maybe she knows something about it that you don't?
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Old 11th May 2020, 06:59 PM   #203
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Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
If the judge dismisses the case (as I think she will), would you conclude that she's a Trump crony? Or will you consider that maybe she knows something about it that you don't?
Judge Emmett Sullivan (not she) is no Trump crony as he has shown. If he accepts the DOJ request he will do so because they have a legal case.

But that will not remove the fact that Flynn knowingly, willingly and under oath pleaded guilty to lying. Neither you nor any Trump supporter can deny that no matter how hard one tries to spin it.
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Old 12th May 2020, 12:53 AM   #204
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I recall judge Sullivan musing about the use of the term "treason" regarding the stuff he saw in respect to Flynn's antics that he pled down from. And don't forget the stern dressing down he gave Flynn at a sentencing hearing, where his anger inspired Flynn to put that off so as to provide more cooperation (and thus shave off some time in stir were he to insist on taking his medicine then.)

It seems to me that Sullivan knows some awful stuff about Flynn that could make him less amenable to rolling over for Billy Barr. At least without the DoJ having to squirm in justifying their injustice in his courtroom.
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Old 12th May 2020, 01:16 AM   #205
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It will be funny to see how the SC and other Trump-stuffed courts will do a complete 180 on all their opinions the moment a Democrat sits in the White House.


"History is written by the winners" ?
How the **** can you support an AG who thinks that way?
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Old 12th May 2020, 02:39 AM   #206
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Originally Posted by Lurch View Post
I recall judge Sullivan musing about the use of the term "treason" regarding the stuff he saw in respect to Flynn's antics that he pled down from. And don't forget the stern dressing down he gave Flynn at a sentencing hearing, where his anger inspired Flynn to put that off so as to provide more cooperation (and thus shave off some time in stir were he to insist on taking his medicine then.)

It seems to me that Sullivan knows some awful stuff about Flynn that could make him less amenable to rolling over for Billy Barr. At least without the DoJ having to squirm in justifying their injustice in his courtroom.
Yes, I remember this. I've also seen it opined by a lawyer who has encountered him professionally (I'm tempted to say Popehat, but I can't remember for sure) that Sullivan is fiercely independent and loathes anything he could see as the government trying to interfere in court business.

I'm not going to pretend to know enough about everything to predict for sure how this will go, but I'm definitely leaning strongly towards "not well for Flynn".
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Old 12th May 2020, 05:39 AM   #207
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Originally Posted by The Great Zaganza View Post
It will be funny to see how the SC and other Trump-stuffed courts will do a complete 180 on all their opinions the moment a Democrat sits in the White House.


"History is written by the winners" ?
How the **** can you support an AG who thinks that way?
History is written by those who are not Murdered by complete and utter Stupidity is another way to phrase it.
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Old 12th May 2020, 06:13 AM   #208
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Originally Posted by The Great Zaganza View Post
"History is written by the winners" ?
How the **** can you support an AG who thinks that way?
You have been lied to. Look up the full quote.
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Old 12th May 2020, 06:34 AM   #209
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Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
You have been lied to. Look up the full quote.
Just to quote the mea culpa from the liars:

“ the "Meet the Press" Twitter account posted: "You’re correct. Earlier today, we inadvertently and inaccurately cut short a video clip of an interview with AG Barr before offering commentary and analysis. The remaining clip included important remarks from the attorney general that we missed, and we regret the error."”
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Old 12th May 2020, 06:46 AM   #210
The Great Zaganza
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Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
You have been lied to. Look up the full quote.
I read the entire quote.
I
Doesn't change one bit the fact that Barr seems to think that being in power is just as important than being on the side of justice.
He is the AG. Only Justice should matter.

Zig why do all career DOJ prosecutors quit and/or refuse to sign these plea withdrawals? Does only Barr know the law and they are all wrong?
The overwhelming majority of legal commentators call this a corrupt move.
And they are right.
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Old 12th May 2020, 08:01 AM   #211
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Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
You have been lied to. Look up the full quote.
I’m not seeing evidence of a lie. Could you provide it please?
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Old 12th May 2020, 08:08 AM   #212
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Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
If the judge dismisses the case (as I think she will), would you conclude that she's a Trump crony? Or will you consider that maybe she knows something about it that you don't?


You’ve been following the case so closely that we should pay attention to your opinion on what the judge will do, yet you managed to completely miss his gender?
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Old 12th May 2020, 09:43 AM   #213
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Originally Posted by The Great Zaganza View Post
I read the entire quote.
I don't believe you. And if you're telling the truth about that, well, that's even worse.

Quote:
Doesn't change one bit the fact that Barr seems to think that being in power is just as important than being on the side of justice.
He is the AG. Only Justice should matter.
Here's the question he was asked:

"In closing, this was a big decision in the Flynn case, to-- to say the least. When history looks back on this decision, how do you think it will be written? What will it say about your decision making?"

Here's his answer:

"Well, history is written by the winner. So it largely depends on who's writing the history. But I think a fair history would say that it was a good decision because it upheld the rule of law. It helped, it upheld the standards of the Department of Justice, and it undid what was an injustice."

His comment about history being written by the winner is a comment about how it may be viewed in the future. It is NOT a statement about what matters. And he's saying, quite explicitly, that he did this in the interest of justice. Now, you can choose to not believe what he said. You can choose to believe he's motivated by something else. Ascribed motives are wonderfully unfalsifiable. But don't perpetuate a lie about what it is he said.

Quote:
Zig why do all career DOJ prosecutors quit and/or refuse to sign these plea withdrawals? Does only Barr know the law and they are all wrong?
The overwhelming majority of legal commentators call this a corrupt move.
And they are right.
Van Grack hasn't quit. He withdrew from this case. He lied to the court, and the world knows it. I think he's finished as a prosecutor, and that's why he's withdrawn.

As for legal commentators, how is your sample assembled? Is it the people who get invited to talk on news shows? Law blogs you read? Where are you getting this from? Plus, argument ad populum.
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Old 12th May 2020, 10:05 AM   #214
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Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
Van Grack hasn't quit. He withdrew from this case. He lied to the court, and the world knows it.
What evidence do you have that he lied?
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Old 12th May 2020, 10:10 AM   #215
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Originally Posted by johnny karate View Post
What evidence do you have that he lied?
He told the court he had turned over all Brady material.

He hadn't. We know that because more material has emerged since he told the court that it had all been turned over.
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Old 12th May 2020, 10:15 AM   #216
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As in Marsha Brady, or Cindy Brady?
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Old 12th May 2020, 10:16 AM   #217
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Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
He told the court he had turned over all Brady material.

He hadn't. We know that because more material has emerged since he told the court that it had all been turned over.
A lie is saying something untrue while also being aware that it is untrue.

Assuming your version of events is accurate, what evidence do you have that Van Grack knew what he told the court was untrue?
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Old 12th May 2020, 10:51 AM   #218
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Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
He told the court he had turned over all Brady material.

He hadn't. We know that because more material has emerged since he told the court that it had all been turned over.
What specifically do you see as Brady material?
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Old 12th May 2020, 11:22 AM   #219
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Originally Posted by carlitos View Post
You’ve been following the case so closely that we should pay attention to your opinion on what the judge will do, yet you managed to completely miss his gender?
Oh Dear... Busted!

I'll bet he's been thinking its Amy Berman-Jackson!

Looks like Zig's getting confused between Flynn, Roger Stone and Paul Manafort - an understandabe mistake I expect for when they are all scumbag crooks.
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Old 12th May 2020, 01:25 PM   #220
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Originally Posted by johnny karate View Post
A lie is saying something untrue while also being aware that it is untrue.

Assuming your version of events is accurate, what evidence do you have that Van Grack knew what he told the court was untrue?
You're right, he could just be incompetent.

Courts don't like that either, though.
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Old 12th May 2020, 01:48 PM   #221
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Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
You're right, he could just be incompetent.

Courts don't like that either, though.
Thank you for admitting your error.

You also accused a news program of lying.

Do you have evidence for that lie?
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Old 12th May 2020, 02:17 PM   #222
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Originally Posted by johnny karate View Post

You also accused a news program of lying.

Do you have evidence for that lie?
You mean the news program that admitted their mistake?


“ the "Meet the Press" Twitter account posted: "You’re correct. Earlier today, we inadvertently and inaccurately cut short a video clip of an interview with AG Barr before offering commentary and analysis. The remaining clip included important remarks from the attorney general that we missed, and we regret the error."”
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Old 12th May 2020, 02:22 PM   #223
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Originally Posted by Giz View Post
You mean the news program that admitted their mistake?


“ the "Meet the Press" Twitter account posted: "You’re correct. Earlier today, we inadvertently and inaccurately cut short a video clip of an interview with AG Barr before offering commentary and analysis. The remaining clip included important remarks from the attorney general that we missed, and we regret the error."”
I just took a quick look at a thesaurus. Turns out “mistake” and “lie” aren’t synonymous.

And just to get you up to speed on the standards of evidence, according to Ziggurat, when Flynn admitted to lying to the FBI, that doesn’t count as evidence that he lied to the FBI.

With that in mind, please provide your evidence that the news program in question lied.
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Old 12th May 2020, 05:01 PM   #224
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And admitting to even a mistake is something Trump and Fox News will never do.
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Old 12th May 2020, 05:30 PM   #225
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This is so stonking rediculous. Pathetic, rather.

"Oh, so the FBI wants to talk to me about some stuff I had nothing to do with. I think my best bet will be to lie about something else so they will go away. I'm sure it'll be fine."

Yeah. This is what we're apparently expected to believe.

Well, I say that once again, this proves beyond a shadow of a doubt, to never, ever talk to the police without your lawyer present. About anything. Every person theoretically has the right to remain silent, not the right to lie to the cops, even if it is about unrelated stuff. Because this shows that, hey, maybe it's not really unrelated? Or, better yet, how are you to know beforehand what's related and what isn't? You don't, so you shut. Up.

This fool thought he was immune.

Well, the joke's on me, I guess since he'll be freed now.

At least we can all learn a few lessons here: never talk to cops about anything without a lawyer and that there is no legitimate justice in America.
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Old 12th May 2020, 06:08 PM   #226
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Judge Sullivan, in an unusual move, is asking for 3rd party briefs ("friend of the court" style) before he rules on dismissing the case.

Quote:
Judge Emmet Sullivan said third-parties may be able to file "friend of the court" briefs in the case, an extraordinary development for criminal proceedings and a development that will likely delay a ruling on the request to dismiss the case.
Sullivan made the announcement in a somewhat cryptic order five days after the Justice Department's stunning request.

His veer toward considering additional voices implies Sullivan isn't ready to drop the case and may want to do more fact-finding about what happened to it, especially after the Justice Department's about-face on Flynn last week set off a torrent of criticism from former prosecutors, defense attorneys and even witnesses claiming Attorney General William Barr had interfered because of President Donald Trump's political wishes.
https://www.cnn.com/2020/05/12/polit...dge/index.html
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Old 12th May 2020, 06:16 PM   #227
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Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
You're right, he could just be incompetent.

Courts don't like that either, though.

Van Grack will really be pushing that he's just incompetent. For him, it could be the difference between getting sanctioned and getting disbarred.
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Old 12th May 2020, 08:07 PM   #228
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Originally Posted by slyjoe View Post
Judge Sullivan, in an unusual move, is asking for 3rd party briefs ("friend of the court" style) before he rules on dismissing the case.



https://www.cnn.com/2020/05/12/polit...dge/index.html
Looks like things didn't white go to Zigs expectations Trump's plans.
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Old 12th May 2020, 08:26 PM   #229
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Originally Posted by cmikes View Post
Van Grack will really be pushing that he's just incompetent. For him, it could be the difference between getting sanctioned and getting disbarred.
For what?
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Old 12th May 2020, 10:40 PM   #230
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Timothy Shea, the hatchet-man for Barr, used the identification number of Jessie K. Liu to submit the withdrawal of the charges, but signed with his name.
Shea isn't silenced to submit the documents.


https://lawandcrime.com/high-profile...el-flynn-case/

It is abundantly clear that Shae and Barr are cutting corners and breaking rules, and no career prosecutor in the DOJ wants to have anything to do with their corruption.
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Old 13th May 2020, 12:00 AM   #231
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Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
I don't believe you. And if you're telling the truth about that, well, that's even worse.

Here's the question he was asked:

"In closing, this was a big decision in the Flynn case, to-- to say the least. When history looks back on this decision, how do you think it will be written? What will it say about your decision making?"

Here's his answer:
"Well, history is written by the winner. So it largely depends on who's writing the history. But I think a fair history would say that it was a good decision because it upheld the rule of law. It helped, it upheld the standards of the Department of Justice, and it undid what was an injustice."

His comment about history being written by the winner is a comment about how it may be viewed in the future. It is NOT a statement about what matters. And he's saying, quite explicitly, that he did this in the interest of justice. Now, you can choose to not believe what he said. You can choose to believe he's motivated by something else. Ascribed motives are wonderfully unfalsifiable. But don't perpetuate a lie about what it is he said.

Van Grack hasn't quit. He withdrew from this case. He lied to the court, and the world knows it. I think he's finished as a prosecutor, and that's why he's withdrawn.

As for legal commentators, how is your sample assembled? Is it the people who get invited to talk on news shows? Law blogs you read? Where are you getting this from? Plus, argument ad populum.
Barr said that and it would not be much of a stretch to characterize that as an absolute falsehood. Claims by scum-sucking bottom feeders are not generally held in high regard in any forum of people with a clue.
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Old 13th May 2020, 06:39 AM   #232
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https://twitter.com/MikeScarcella/st...222836736?s=20

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Michael Flynn's lawyers oppose any outside voices weighing in on the Barr Justice Department's move to abandon the case. New court filing tonight: 'Only the Department of Justice and the defense can be heard.' https://assets.documentcloud.org/doc...2020-05-12.pdf
Document embedded in tweet.
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Old 13th May 2020, 06:42 AM   #233
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Originally Posted by fishbob View Post
Barr said that
Exactly. That's what he said, and TGZ's characterization of what he said was wrong.

Whether or not you believe Barr is a separate question, and not part of TGZ's original (and wrong) claim.
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Old 13th May 2020, 06:43 AM   #234
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https://twitter.com/ZoeTillman/statu...30330688499713

Quote:
NOW: The judge in Michael Flynn's case issued an order indicating the case isn't over just yet — he writes that "given the current posture of this case," he expects people will want to file amicus (friend-of-court) briefs, and he'll be setting a schedule for that
https://twitter.com/obarcala/status/...242449408?s=20

Quote:
Has anyone ever seen a judge request amici in a criminal case? Sullivan notes that the local criminal rules don't even provide for amici.

Seems to suggest that Sullivan doesn't think DOJ is adequately representing the interests of the United States.
Documents embedded in tweets.
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Old 13th May 2020, 06:55 AM   #235
The Great Zaganza
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Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
Exactly. That's what he said, and TGZ's characterization of what he said was wrong.

Whether or not you believe Barr is a separate question, and not part of TGZ's original (and wrong) claim.
It's not wrong.
Barr said that as the winner of the elections they get to play favorites, but that in this case it might even pass legal muster.

Barr has made it clear time and again that he is completely unbound by precedent when it comes to justifying whatever Trump wants him to do.
Since his lies about the Mueller Report, the vast majority of legal scholars and former prosecutors have called him on his BS, and they are doing it in this case, too.

The is no way to justify the move not to prosecute Flynn except from "might makes right".
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Old 13th May 2020, 08:14 AM   #236
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Originally Posted by The Great Zaganza View Post
It's not wrong.
Barr said that as the winner of the elections they get to play favorites
No, he did not. Now you're lying. His comment about history referred to the fact that political opponents in the future may portray his actions differently than he does. He said nothing about himself playing favorites. Again, you may think that's what he's doing, but that is absolutely and unequivocally not what he said.
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Old 13th May 2020, 09:57 AM   #237
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Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
No, he did not. Now you’re lying.
Where’s your evidence that he’s lying?
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Old 13th May 2020, 09:59 AM   #238
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Originally Posted by johnny karate View Post
Where’s your evidence that he’s lying?
Because he's had the truth explained to him, and he keeps trying to push something that's false.
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Old 13th May 2020, 10:28 AM   #239
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Zig, since you can read minds:

Why did Barr say: "History is written by the winners."?
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Old 13th May 2020, 10:37 AM   #240
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Originally Posted by The Great Zaganza View Post
Zig, since you can read minds:

Why did Barr say: "History is written by the winners."?
I don't have to read minds. The meaning is made pretty clear from the text itself: he doesn't know how his actions will be portrayed in the future, because the people doing that may have motives for portraying it differently than it actually is.

There's considerable irony here, though. You're now trying to fall back on the position that I can't know what Barr meant because I can't read his mind, but the fact of the matter is that you brought this up to begin with because you thought you knew what he meant, and that it meant something bad.
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