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Old 6th June 2020, 01:13 PM   #81
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Originally Posted by casebro View Post
Sorry, I needed an emotional situation for comparison. What, you didn't see Flight or Fight as comparable ?

Ever heard of the Viking Berserkers? In battle they would hack and chop, until only two were left. Then even if on the same side, they might hack and chop at each other. There just is no stopping people in the Berserk stage. But I think 3 on 1 could have done it in less then 9 minutes.
I have a suggestion; don't hire berserkers as police.
Simples.
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Old 6th June 2020, 01:15 PM   #82
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Originally Posted by Garb View Post
Pilots have a pretty high standard for doing their jobs. Not sure why we don't hold cops to a high enough standard to where they don't abuse the rights of the people they are supposed to "protect and serve."
A more dangerous job.
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Old 6th June 2020, 01:16 PM   #83
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Originally Posted by lionking View Post
I don’t know how many times I’ve said this over the years. One force per state would solve most of the problems with ill disciplined and poorly trained and resourced police. My state of Victoria has a population of about 6.5 million and a police force of 22,000. This is a large force by world standards and police behaviour is not perfect, but public approval is strong.
An excellent point. Small forces are stupidly inefficient.
Also stop electing commissioners, prosecutors and judges.

Originally Posted by lionking View Post
What are the barriers to abolishing or amalgamating the thousands of US police forces? I don’t think it’s constitutional. Is it just inertia?
Politics.
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Old 6th June 2020, 01:26 PM   #84
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Originally Posted by BobTheCoward View Post
Here is a far out solution...

Require all patrol cars to go out on patrol with a defense attorney present. And every suspect/witness/person of interest the police interact with, the attorney can immediately offer to represent that person.
that is pretty far out and not likely ever to be practicable but it reminds me a little of a difference in attitude that might be helpful.

Long ago I had a couple of posts in small town politics, including chairmanship of the Zoning Board of Appeals and the Board of Tax Review, both a pretty big thing in a small town. Many of the surrounding towns were pretty notorious for their "suck it up" attitude, in which people in these positions would simply do what they did, and tough luck if you didn't like it. In our town we adopted a different attitude. We always explained exactly what we were doing and why, even if people didn't like what we were doing. We always invited them to check it out. And we always informed them of what they could do to appeal our actions if they didn't like them.

Not surprisingly, we had considerable success. People who understood what was being done and how generally accepted it even if they weren't very happy about it. A lot of the time bureaucratic decisions are right, if the bureaucrats would simply get off their high horse and explain them.

We rarely hear much nowadays about ombudsmen, a fashion that seems to have been short lived. But I think at least for starters, we should return to the idea of an independent agency of review, to which anyone who feels victimized can appeal. And like Miranda rights, notification of this should be a mandatory part of an arrest.
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Old 6th June 2020, 02:13 PM   #85
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Originally Posted by Bob001 View Post
Does that mean that every cop in Victoria belongs to the same force? The detectives who investigate homicides in Melbourne belong to the same force as guys who write parking tickets in a village? There must still be friction and competition among various elements of the force. And I know Australia also has a uniformed federal police force. How do the layers overlap?



The U.S. developed with multiple levels of government that have distinct but overlapping responsibilities. You might be a resident of a town or city within a county within a state, and they all have different jurisdictions and local codes. There's no movement to centralize policing. If anything, people are more iikely to think of the local cops as "their" police, and wouldn't want to lose them. And of course every institution works to protect itself. Nobody who benefits from being an official in one of thousands of police forces would want to give it up.

I think it might be realistic to consolidate small-town departments into one county force, as is the case in many counties now. Much beyond that, not very likely.
Yes indeed. It’s a far more complex structure than when I was there 30 years ago (my old position is still on the organisation chart) and the force is twice the size, but it worked then and seems to work now. Most operational police report to regional Assistant Commissioners, and there are support and specialist positions. Rank is respected and everyone seems to know their place. Here’s the structure if you’re interested:

https://www.police.vic.gov.au/sites/...20Internet.pdf

There were protest marches yesterday with 10,000 in Melbourne, including my daughter. Although prompted by the events in the US, the focus was clearly on aboriginal issues. There were no arrests and no property damage. The headlines today are about how the organisers were fined for breaching social distancing restrictions! Now, that’s how to manage a protest.
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Old 6th June 2020, 02:43 PM   #86
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Originally Posted by rockinkt View Post
As a former cop - the following spring immediately to mind:

Make rookie cops go unarmed for the first two years of duty. The firearm has to stop being the first response to any perceived threat.
Failing that - police officers should be made to work alone (with reasonable back-up available) as much as possible. That way they will learn communication and de-escalation skills. Getting tuned up by an upset member of the public is a great way to learn that you are not a god and that nobody appreciates getting talked to like a second class citizen just because some idiot taught you "Command Authority" in training.

Stop teaching cops that they have a dangerous job. It isn't and we must stop the self glorification that such an ethos creates.

Any cop that is heard using the term "civilian" should be immediately fired. That is a military term and a military mindset is the exact wrong attitude to have.

SWAT or like units should be comprised of non police personnel. They should also be removed from the control of local police and only be used as a last resort when all other options have been carefully considered. Far too many incidents involving the "kill or be killed" mindset of these units results in deaths of innocent people.

A national standard for police training needs to be developed and enforced. All former military people should be barred from any police training facility. Police training must be devoid of all military mindsets. You are police officer - not a soldier. Your goals and how you achieve them are different.

Make it a very serious offence to not report a felony by a fellow cop.

Police unions are a double edged sword. Police deserve good pay and decent benefits (like anybody else)- but unions should not be a barrier that interferes with proper investigations of alleged malfeasance. Union funding of good defence lawyers is fair as long as the money is drawn from union dues only.
Some of those are pretty good, but the real issue is a leadership problem. That cop who murdered or used excessive force is out and so is his boss who clearly shows he is incompetent at running a force.

The reason Unions are a problem is the Peter Principle. cops get promoted eventually to the highest level of their incompetence.....and the Union makes it impossible to get rid of bad leadership. They do not select, train, or equip good leaders. All they do is set protocols for raises and benefits etc... Making it even harder to get rid of incompetent leadership.

But any police force in the country that has these issues can be immediately fixed by simply firing incompetent leadership and inserting competent trained leaders. You obviously cant get rid of the whole force. We need police forces. But we also need to make sure police forces are here to serve and protect, not murder and steal.

In the case of Derek Chauvin, where the record is clear that he was a bad cop, he should be held criminally responsible for his part. But the buck does not stop there. Who put Derek Chauvin, a known bad cop with a well documented history of being a bad cop, back on the street? Whoever that was needs to be fired. Maybe even held criminally responsible as well for gross negligence resulting in death...

To steal a point from a friend of mine: "It might seem unfair, blaming someone in an office miles away. But they were there. Their past leadership; their training, encouragement, ethics, values, traditions, wisdom, the rules they enforced, it was passed on either badly or for better to the police officers below them. Leaders are always present."

And that goes right up the chain of command in this case. Fire them, impeach them, make them resign... whatever. Even Police Chief Medaria Arradondo. Even Mayor Jacob Frey. And as for me, I would even include Trump in the list of incompetents that needs removed. And this crap about being loyal to your party is crap too. Any Republican or Democrat leadership who puts their party ahead of their country or community needs removed....fire em all.

But don't throw the baby out with the bathwater.
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Old 6th June 2020, 06:27 PM   #87
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Originally Posted by rockinkt View Post
Police/citizen interactions in the US are estimated at about 2 million per day. A total of 106 police officers were killed in 2017. Of those 106 fatalities - 44 were from gunshot wounds. That means that 730,000,000 interactions resulted in fatal gunfire that killed 44 cops. Or, 1 out of every 16,500,000 cop/citizen interactions results in the death of a cop by gunfire.
Anybody that thinks those numbers equate a situation where cops have to presume that they are about to be shot during each citizen interaction is falling for the hype.
That is why being a police officer in the US does not even make it into the top ten most dangerous jobs.
To be slightly fairer to the police, you are using the wrong statistic. The question is not "How many are shot and killed?" the question is "How many are confronted with a weapon that can potentially kill them?"

Being stabbed, bludgeoned, or shot can land a cop in hospital, end their careers, or leave them in a wheel chair or worse, why should that not be taken into account? Why ignore the cop who gets shot seven times and doesn't die? (Yep, that has happened.)

How about when being assaulted by an unarmed man who is holding the cop's head underwater? (this was a real case in an unarmed suspect shooting in Georgia in 2018.)

Sadly this is a really hard number to actually find, as most articles and studies are more interested in violence committed by the Police than in violence committed against the police.

This study looked into the Orlando PD and found that over the course of 3 years, 457 officers had been assaulted, resulting in 216 officers sustaining injures from those assaults. This is in a department of 700 officers meaning that within a 3 year period over 65% of them had been assaulted and nearly 31% of them had been injured because of those assaults.

I have previously found FBI statistics that say that there are around 10,000 aggravated assaults on US law enforcement officers, about 2,000 of those involving guns.

I'm going to note that you skewed the data even further in that you only used those killed with guns, ignoring the two other murders that were not with guns. You also picked a year that had low police deaths. 2016 had 66 felonious police deaths, 2018 had 67, and 2019 had 60.

Now I'm not saying that the police are right to treat everyone as a potential threat to themselves, I'm just saying that you need to use the right statistics if you want to fairly make your case.
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Old 6th June 2020, 08:35 PM   #88
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Police are unfortunately a neccessity. I don't say that to disparage police collectively but it would be great if we didn't need them.



What is not needed is a police and justice system that crushes people gratuitously. Other police systems are able function without doing that.
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Old 6th June 2020, 08:59 PM   #89
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Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
The police also have one of the most powerful unions in the country and (like it or not, admit it or not Democrats) that is going to keep the Left from being the hammer down quite as much as they otherwise would.
The problem with police unions is they are not concerned with things unions are usually concerned with...fair treament for their members, working conditions, pay and benefirts but are concerened in guaranteeing that no member of their union is ever held responsible for anything he or she may do. They will blindly support another cop, no matter what.
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Old 6th June 2020, 09:02 PM   #90
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Originally Posted by lionking View Post
Yes indeed. It’s a far more complex structure than when I was there 30 years ago (my old position is still on the organisation chart) and the force is twice the size, but it worked then and seems to work now. Most operational police report to regional Assistant Commissioners, and there are support and specialist positions. Rank is respected and everyone seems to know their place. Here’s the structure if you’re interested:

https://www.police.vic.gov.au/sites/...20Internet.pdf

There were protest marches yesterday with 10,000 in Melbourne, including my daughter. Although prompted by the events in the US, the focus was clearly on aboriginal issues. There were no arrests and no property damage. The headlines today are about how the organisers were fined for breaching social distancing restrictions! Now, that’s how to manage a protest.
US has a very strong tradition of local control of the local police force, and I don't see that changing.
But I could see semthing like nationwide training standards,etc.
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Old 6th June 2020, 09:05 PM   #91
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Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
Nope. It's something judges made up. There isn't a single piece of legislation that establishes qualified immunity.
Remember "Code Red" in "A Few Good Men"? Where somehting does not exist legally but sure as hell exists?
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Old 6th June 2020, 10:01 PM   #92
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Originally Posted by dudalb View Post
Remember "Code Red" in "A Few Good Men"? Where somehting does not exist legally but sure as hell exists?
Excellent analogy.
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Old 7th June 2020, 12:16 AM   #93
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Qualified immunity ONLY exists in civil law. There is no qualified immunity in criminal statutory law for anyone. If a police officer contravenes a law without statutory leave to do so (e.g powers to arrest, detain, use force, etc) - they can be charged and convicted.
BTW - that satutory exemption is not called qualified immunity.
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Old 7th June 2020, 12:21 AM   #94
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How they do it in other countries:
Quote:
In places such as Brazil, Egypt, Kenya — and most recently Hong Kong — accusations of police violence are common and are often seen by rights groups as far less accountable than in the United States.

In Hong Kong crackdown, police repeatedly broke their own rules — and faced no consequences

But in other countries, including many in Europe, the police practices that are causing outrage in the United States are either entirely banned or are far more strictly regulated. Paul Hirschfield, an associate professor of sociology at Rutgers University, said more apt parallels can be drawn between the United States and Latin America.

The United States is “more similar to many Latin American countries in terms of the vast inequalities, localized policing, and highly racialized function and history of policing,” he said.
And
Quote:
A police officer in the United States trains for an average of 19 months before being put on the job. In much of Europe, it’s three years.

“Training is a much more lengthy process in countries with national policing,” said Hirschfield. “You can impose national standards much more easily, and enforce them much more easily.”
https://www.washingtonpost.com/world...-around-world/
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Old 7th June 2020, 12:47 AM   #95
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Originally Posted by Bob001 View Post
How they do it in other countries:

And

https://www.washingtonpost.com/world...-around-world/

It doesn't even have to be national level, can it at least be state level? The fragmentation of standards and procedures is mind boggling in it's complexity. Local Police, State Police, Federa Police, Federal Agencies, Sherrifs.
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Old 7th June 2020, 01:55 AM   #96
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Originally Posted by Bob001 View Post
Does that mean that every cop in Victoria belongs to the same force? The detectives who investigate homicides in Melbourne belong to the same force as guys who write parking tickets in a village? There must still be friction and competition among various elements of the force. And I know Australia also has a uniformed federal police force. How do the layers overlap?



The U.S. developed with multiple levels of government that have distinct but overlapping responsibilities. You might be a resident of a town or city within a county within a state, and they all have different jurisdictions and local codes. There's no movement to centralize policing. If anything, people are more iikely to think of the local cops as "their" police, and wouldn't want to lose them. And of course every institution works to protect itself. Nobody who benefits from being an official in one of thousands of police forces would want to give it up.

I think it might be realistic to consolidate small-town departments into one county force, as is the case in many counties now. Much beyond that, not very likely.

In the UK our police forces are regional, so they cover a geographical area, however they all have a common recruitment process, training and standards.

To me that would be one change the USA could do, agree on common standards and recruitment, so it shouldn’t matter where someone joined the police force you would know that they have had the same training.

We’ve been “up skilling” our police force over the years and this is what is in place today:

https://www.prospects.ac.uk/jobs-and...ing-the-police

The other major change should be removing voting for “police chiefs”, of course you can never entirely keep politics out of policing but the running of a police force should be as apolitical as possible.
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Old 7th June 2020, 01:57 AM   #97
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If you want to defund the police (and I take this to mean reduce their funding, rather than abolish them altogether), then one obvious place to start would be to get rid of, or at least vastly reduce, the War on Drugs.
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Old 7th June 2020, 02:04 AM   #98
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Originally Posted by casebro View Post
Sorry, I needed an emotional situation for comparison. What, you didn't see Flight or Fight as comparable ?

Ever heard of the Viking Berserkers? In battle they would hack and chop, until only two were left. Then even if on the same side, they might hack and chop at each other. There just is no stopping people in the Berserk stage. But I think 3 on 1 could have done it in less then 9 minutes.

Perhaps not compare fairy tales to real life may be helpful. Berserkers are fictional, and even if you want to use such comparisons perhaps check your mythological critters, berserkers couldn’t be harmed by blades...
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Old 7th June 2020, 02:15 AM   #99
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Originally Posted by Matthew Best View Post
If you want to defund the police (and I take this to mean reduce their funding, rather than abolish them altogether), then one obvious place to start would be to get rid of, or at least vastly reduce, the War on Drugs.
Oh, definitely. Ending the absurd prohibition of marijuana would save money and bring in sales tax revenue.
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Old 7th June 2020, 02:50 AM   #100
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Originally Posted by Cain View Post
I was looking up figures the other day. American police killed over a thousand people last year. UK police killed three. The US has about five times as many people.

In casual discussions with police officers, they always emphasize that their training tells them to be vigilant 100% of the time, or they might not go home to their families. Look away for a split second, and a suspect will pull a weapon and end you.

This is a country with widespread gun ownership. You want police to be less militarized and violent? Strictly regulate firearms, especially handguns.


This is how USA differs from all other "western" countries. It's extremely rare for a civilian to pull a gun on a policeman in UK or elsewhere in Europe, or other comparable countries. The situation in USA breeds distrust between law enforcement and the citizenry.
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Old 7th June 2020, 06:23 AM   #101
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Originally Posted by Ulf Nereng View Post


This is how USA differs from all other "western" countries. It's extremely rare for a civilian to pull a gun on a policeman in UK or elsewhere in Europe, or other comparable countries. The situation in USA breeds distrust between law enforcement and the citizenry.
I bring this up a lot. As I mentioned in my earlier post, most “western” countries don’t see the level of violence directed against police activities that we do.
Here, we must assume that anyone we come in contact with may be armed. In some cases, like here in Missouri, it’s quite legal... If you can legally buy a gun, you can carry it... Period. No permit, no training. We note that since this has been enacted (previously, you had to get training and a permit to carry) there has been a great deal of increase in anger-related shooting incidents... “road rage” and such.
But even prior to the legalization of concealed carry, we had to assume that anyone we came in contact with in a suspicious-person situation may be armed.

In big cities like New York and Chicago, for many years it was essentially impossible to legally own or carry a handgun. Yet, annually, police in both these cities took thousands of guns “off the street”. Where there’s a market, it will be filled.

Earlier, I mentioned how patrol officers are being trained to address active-shooter and terrorist incidents, leading to a comment that indicated that this is what SWAT units were for.

Unfortunately, that paradigm has changed. SWAT units have to be called up, assembled, and directed to respond. This takes time. That all changed with Columbine, where the responding officers (according to policy at the time) assembled in a staging area and waited for the SWAT team. During the 40 minutes or so that this took, the two lads continued their killing spree and many lives were lost.
So, we went to the “active shooter” model, where the first few responding officers go in and hunt down and confront the shooter(s). We receive training on how to do this, essentially military small-unit tactics.
The last couple of such training sessions we attended had an emphasis on saving the lives of the wounded... The use modern, high-tech tourniquets, blood-clotting wound-packing materials, rapid triage and evacuation, etc, etc.
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Old 7th June 2020, 09:05 AM   #102
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Originally Posted by Darat View Post
.....
The other major change should be removing voting for “police chiefs”, of course you can never entirely keep politics out of policing but the running of a police force should be as apolitical as possible.
Police chiefs are rarely elected in the U.S. They are government employees typically appointed by the mayor, city council or other elected authority. On the other hand, sheriffs are elected. In many jurisdictions there are police departments and sheriff's offices with different functions, but in some areas, particularly rural ones, the sheriffs are the only law enforcement agency.

Just another complexity in American law enforcement, with something like 18,000 separate departments and agencies.
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Old 7th June 2020, 09:08 AM   #103
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Originally Posted by Bikewer View Post
I bring this up a lot. As I mentioned in my earlier post, most “western” countries don’t see the level of violence directed against police activities that we do.
...snip...
Is there actual studies that backs that up?
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Old 7th June 2020, 09:10 AM   #104
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Originally Posted by Bikewer View Post
.....
Unfortunately, that paradigm has changed. SWAT units have to be called up, assembled, and directed to respond. This takes time. That all changed with Columbine, where the responding officers (according to policy at the time) assembled in a staging area and waited for the SWAT team. During the 40 minutes or so that this took, the two lads continued their killing spree and many lives were lost.
.....
Just curious here: If those armed cops waiting outside during the mass murder in progress had said "This is crazy, let's go get these guys," would they have been punished for it? Columbine was a notorious example of bad policy producing bad results.
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Old 7th June 2020, 10:07 AM   #105
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Something else to consider.

Multiple court cases (finally upheld on the Supreme Court level with Warren V. District of Columbia in 1981, and further upheld in 2005's Town of Castle Rock Vs Gonzales, DeShaney vs Winnebago County in 1988, and Lozito v. New York City in 2012) have made the legal precedent that police do not actually have a legal duty to protect the citizenry.

A cop that sees you being murdered in the streets and walks right past you whistling a jaunty tune with a spring in his step has committed no crime.

But practically every state (California is the only exception I can confirm) and the Federal Government have laws against "failing to assist" (not laws against hampering, but actual laws against refusing to actively assist) a police offcer.

So you can arrested for refusing to help a police officer stop a crime but the officer can't be arrested for refusing to stop a crime.
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Old 7th June 2020, 01:46 PM   #106
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Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
Something else to consider.

Multiple court cases (finally upheld on the Supreme Court level with Warren V. District of Columbia in 1981, and further upheld in 2005's Town of Castle Rock Vs Gonzales, DeShaney vs Winnebago County in 1988, and Lozito v. New York City in 2012) have made the legal precedent that police do not actually have a legal duty to protect the citizenry.

A cop that sees you being murdered in the streets and walks right past you whistling a jaunty tune with a spring in his step has committed no crime.

But practically every state (California is the only exception I can confirm) and the Federal Government have laws against "failing to assist" (not laws against hampering, but actual laws against refusing to actively assist) a police offcer.

So you can arrested for refusing to help a police officer stop a crime but the officer can't be arrested for refusing to stop a crime.
Ah, America.
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Old 7th June 2020, 07:34 PM   #107
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Originally Posted by Darat View Post
In the UK our police forces are regional, so they cover a geographical area, however they all have a common recruitment process, training and standards.

To me that would be one change the USA could do, agree on common standards and recruitment, so it shouldn’t matter where someone joined the police force you would know that they have had the same training.

We’ve been “up skilling” our police force over the years and this is what is in place today:

https://www.prospects.ac.uk/jobs-and...ing-the-police

The other major change should be removing voting for “police chiefs”, of course you can never entirely keep politics out of policing but the running of a police force should be as apolitical as possible.
I disagree;I think making the police leader directly responsible to voters might be a good thing.
And it is never going to be apolitical; even if police chiefs are appointed lots of politics are involved.
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Old 7th June 2020, 08:21 PM   #108
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Originally Posted by casebro View Post
How about doing away with police as Revenue Agents? Make all fines go to the state, not the local government. Confront drivers only when they do something unsafe. (Hint: few stop light violations are unsafe). Use the man power savings to cut the a-holes off the force.
Letting the police keep the proceeds from asset seizure for drug crimes (or any other crime that lets the police go after assets) is kind of crazy. Not only does it give the police extra cash to buy military grade equipment but it turns enforcing the drugs laws into a profit center. If the cops can bust a drug dealer, they might be able to get the guys house and car if they can link those assets to drug profits. Busting a rapist isn't usually as lucrative.
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Old 7th June 2020, 09:26 PM   #109
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Perhaps the corrupting power of, well, power would be countered by converting policing from a career to a job people do for only a couple of years? Like national service or the CCC or that thing, I forget its name, where people right out of college got their student loans decreased in exchange for working service jobs. That wouldn't work for the entire police force, of course, you'd still need people running the thing to have experience, and the ones investigating crimes. But the rank-and-file patrol people, there to preserve order. If they were comprised of the actual citizenry who had no plans to stay cops they would hopefully not develop that military them-vs-us mentality. If it were widespread enough then a significant portion of the population would have actually been cops at some point, and at every point a significant portion of the cops would be non-cops in the traditional sense, blurring the lines and blending those two sets. I think such intermingling would reduce the separation between the people and its police force, and thus reduce the number of problems arising from that.

It would also solve a couple of other problems, like age and fitness of the average cop. For every athletic bro-he-lifts cop there seem to be fifty overweight and out of shape cops. Perhaps they'd shoot less and tackle more if they could actually run after people!

eta: Americorps, that was the name of that thing. Is it still around?
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Old 7th June 2020, 09:40 PM   #110
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Originally Posted by dudalb View Post
And it is never going to be apolitical; even if police chiefs are appointed lots of politics are involved.
Maybe in the US. There have been cases of Police Commissioners being puppets for state leaders (particularly in Queensland) but they are very rare. In my 40 years of working with and closely following Victoria Police, I'm not aware of any case of a politician leaning on the Police Commissioner.
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Old 7th June 2020, 11:05 PM   #111
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Originally Posted by CaptainHowdy View Post
Letting the police keep the proceeds from asset seizure for drug crimes (or any other crime that lets the police go after assets) is kind of crazy. Not only does it give the police extra cash to buy military grade equipment but it turns enforcing the drugs laws into a profit center. If the cops can bust a drug dealer, they might be able to get the guys house and car if they can link those assets to drug profits. Busting a rapist isn't usually as lucrative.
Stop the presses! I think I've just seen a post by Captain Howdy that I agree with. I know that's not likely to happen often, but there it is. Well said, even.
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Old 8th June 2020, 06:22 AM   #112
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Although much has been made of the SCOTUS decision regarding no obligation to protect citizens, I have never met an officer in my 50-year career who did not take the “to serve and protect” thing quite seriously and I’ve known many officers who have placed themselves in danger to protect citizens from all manner of things.
That’s just part of the mind-set.

Regarding drug-seizure monies.... I agree that this is a poor idea. Mind, departments don’t directly take these funds. Rather.... Any monies received from “asset seizure” generally goes into whatever county or city’s “general revenue” fund and can be used for police expenses among other things.
Different is the federal drug-seizure program where estimates are made of the “street value” of seized drugs and then departments can receive a percentage of that figure from the federal government.
For large, well-funded organizations, this may be trivial. For small, cash-strapped rural departments... Vital. In fact, I read an article recently about a deputy who had developed a court-defensible “profile” of drug smugglers and who was so successful at such seizures in his county that he now goes around the country giving seminars to other departments on his techniques.
Years back, there was a federal program called “LEAP” or “Law Enforcement Assistance Program”
This allowed departments that were cash-strapped to apply for all manner of goodies.... Police cars, weapons, tools, radio equipment.... Whatever.
The federal largesse was quite generous, and many small departments found the goodies very useful.
But... As with many such programs, it was “use it or loose it”. When the next application period arrived, departments found that they were obligated to order just as much “stuff” or be shut out of the program.
So more than a few small departments were finding themselves awash in extra equipment....
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Old 8th June 2020, 06:48 AM   #113
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Originally Posted by Bikewer View Post
So much to parse here....
I listened to an interview with several activists yesterday. One wanted to disarm the police (this was all in L.A.). One wanted to “defund” the police.... Or have no police whatever. The third was actually on the city council, and wanted more emphasis on training and such... Realized that policing was a necessity.

I’ve addressed the idea of disarming police on other forums. Unfortunately, the US has a long history of violent resistance to police activities.... Unlike other countries where police officer routinely don’t carry firearms.
Just locally, in the last few years, we’ve had officers killed, paralyzed, and seriously wounded by people stopped for “routine” traffic violations.
How many innocents should be sacrificed for this though? I mean sure the suicide rate is far worse as cops are also their own worst enemies as well.

Quote:
it’s still the case that numbers (around 100) officers are killed annually in the line of duty. ANY citizen contact has the potential to become violent, and increasingly any citizen may be armed.
And the suicide rate is of course trivial for some reason.

"During the 2018 calendar year, 167 law enforcement officers tragically took their own lives, and that number is projected to increase during 2019. "

https://www.addictioncenter.com/news...ny-profession/

What is the rate of innocent lives that should be sacrificed per police life? We will accept 5 innocents killed by the cops though this policy to save the life of 1 cop? This is a real factor that needs to be paid attention to after all.
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Old 8th June 2020, 08:07 AM   #114
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Originally Posted by dudalb View Post
I disagree;I think making the police leader directly responsible to voters might be a good thing.
And it is never going to be apolitical; even if police chiefs are appointed lots of politics are involved.
No politician has ever lost votes by promising to "get tough on crime." Crazy Joe Arpaio was elected and re-elected for decades. In areas where police services are provided by elected county sheriffs, they can function as little kings, answerable to no higher authority. Where judges are elected, as they are in many places, there are always questions about how much they factor the next election into their decisions. There is a strong argument to be made that law enforcement and the administration of justice shouldn't be subject to popular whims.
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Old 8th June 2020, 01:23 PM   #115
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Speaking of police unions:

Florida police organization offers to hire cops who were fired or resigned over police misconduct

Quote:
One Florida police organization has said it will re-hire those very officers accused of misconduct, and that offer is prompting outrage.
On Saturday, the Brevard County chapter of the Fraternal Order of Police posted a message on Facebook addressed to the "Buffalo 57" and "Atlanta 6," saying that it was "hiring."
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Old 8th June 2020, 02:05 PM   #116
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Mod Warning Wage theft is not on topic for this thread. If you want to start a thread on that subject, go right ahead.
Posted By:Agatha
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Old 8th June 2020, 03:10 PM   #117
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Originally Posted by ponderingturtle View Post
What is the rate of innocent lives that should be sacrificed per police life? We will accept 5 innocents killed by the cops though this policy to save the life of 1 cop? This is a real factor that needs to be paid attention to after all.
Well this would require getting the actual statistics, but from all the research I have been able to do, it looks as if there is about one innocent person killed about once a month to two months. Let's aim high and say two a month, which doesn't seem to gel with the reports, and so we have 24 innocents killed by cops in a year, at the same time we have about 60 cops murdered, so the ratio is a little over 2 cops per innocent person, though in reality it's more likely to be about 4 cops to every innocent person.

ETA: And though saying this, as I noted above, killings on both sides isn't the right statistic we should be looking at. We should be looking at "Cops attacked in a life threatening way" vs "Innocent People Injured by Cops"
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Old 8th June 2020, 03:16 PM   #118
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Originally Posted by PhantomWolf View Post
Well this would require getting the actual statistics, but from all the research I have been able to do, it looks as if there is about one innocent person killed about once a month to two months. Let's aim high and say two a month, which doesn't seem to gel with the reports, and so we have 24 innocents killed by cops in a year, at the same time we have about 60 cops murdered, so the ratio is a little over 2 cops per innocent person, though in reality it's more likely to be about 4 cops to every innocent person.

ETA: And though saying this, as I noted above, killings on both sides isn't the right statistic we should be looking at. We should be looking at "Cops attacked in a life threatening way" vs "Innocent People Injured by Cops"
What do you mean by innocent? Because guilty people who are not threatening shouldn't be killed either.
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Old 8th June 2020, 09:40 PM   #119
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Did you all know that in the United States it is illegal to unionize or attempt to unionize the armed forces?

Here's the relevant law:

https://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/10/976

Quote:
10 U.S. Code § 976 - Membership in military unions, organizing of military unions, and recognition of military unions prohibited
(Details omitted, but the maximum penalty is up to 5 years in prison and a fine.)

I assume there are good reasons for this law. You don't want the military going on strike, for example. But it also seems like many of those reasons would also apply to the police. It's easy to get kicked out of the military. The police, not so much, because they have unions. So bad apples cannot be easily fired.
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Old 8th June 2020, 11:56 PM   #120
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Originally Posted by Bikewer View Post
Although much has been made of the SCOTUS decision regarding no obligation to protect citizens, I have never met an officer in my 50-year career who did not take the “to serve and protect” thing quite seriously and I’ve known many officers who have placed themselves in danger to protect citizens from all manner of things.
That’s just part of the mind-set.
But it is a very selective mind-set, isn't it? In theory, a police officer should hesitate when a suspect's hands "move toward their waistband" and not shoot until they've visually confirmed the person is actually pulling a gun, as another example of placing themselves in danger (of being too slow to respond and getting shot if the suspect does pull a gun) to protect that person (an innocent until proven guilty citizen) from being killed for no reason. But they don't, and the reason they don't - in my personal observation - is because another part of that mind-set you mention is that with few exceptions they don't see the people they directly interact with in their policing role as "the public" that they "protect and serve", they see them as trash, in varying degrees of inhuman, that are what the rest of the public need to be protected from but are themselves not worthy of protection - reinforced by the circular logic that if that weren't true, they wouldn't be the subject of a police interaction. The guy that gets pulled over for failing to signal a lane change is a law-breaking scumbag, period, and if I happen to have to shoot him because he ducked back into the car unexpectedly to get his wallet and made me nervous then oh well, the world is better off for being less one law-breaking scumbag.
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