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Old 11th June 2020, 07:02 AM   #161
DragonLady
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Originally Posted by SuburbanTurkey View Post
What do you do with a police culture where this happens:



https://www.insider.com/woman-san-an...ucKTP8I8Cf8Ieg

Female cop performs warrantless body cavity search on a woman doing nothing suspicious and pulls out her bloody tampon to show 5 other male officers.

No discipline or criminal charges against the cop. Police maintain the position that this was a perfectly acceptable example of police conduct.

The cops will strip search you in public and sexually violate you for any reason, and the system says this is fine.
I find this absolutely appalling, but not the slightest bit surprising.
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Old 11th June 2020, 07:09 AM   #162
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Originally Posted by DragonLady View Post
The Stanford Prison Experiment showed us the very concept of police is the cause of the corruption.
That experiment might have been fundamentally flawed so I wouldn't take this single data point as being of much value.

ETA: Ok, ninja'd in a major way.
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Old 11th June 2020, 08:20 AM   #163
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Originally Posted by Distracted1 View Post
The preventative aspect seems to be removing bad actors from the population before the bad actors can victimize more people.
How else could their work be "preventative"?
Removing bad actors woulid be one part of it. It might also involve enhanced patrols that make cops more visible to discourage crime, improved community relations so citizens are more likely to give information, working with the city to do simple stuff like improving street lighting and expanding social services, etc. "Preventative" could mean solving problems before they result in crimes.
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Old 11th June 2020, 08:38 AM   #164
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Originally Posted by zooterkin View Post
Seriously? It's the first of the Peelian principles, to prevent crime rather than simply chasing after criminals when it's already happened. There are many ways of going about it, including pro-active policing, community policing, predictive policing, and so on.

Let's list those "Peelian principles."
Quote:
The nine principles were as follows:

1. To prevent crime and disorder, as an alternative to their repression by military force and severity of legal punishment.
2. To recognise always that the power of the police to fulfill their functions and duties is dependent on public approval of their existence, actions and behaviour, and on their ability to secure and maintain public respect.
3. To recognise always that to secure and maintain the respect and approval of the public means also the securing of the willing co-operation of the public in the task of securing observance of laws.
4. To recognise always that the extent to which the co-operation of the public can be secured diminishes proportionately the necessity of the use of physical force and compulsion for achieving police objectives.
5. To seek and preserve public favour, not by pandering to public opinion, but by constantly demonstrating absolutely impartial service to law, in complete independence of policy, and without regard to the justice or injustice of the substance of individual laws, by ready offering of individual service and friendship to all members of the public without regard to their wealth or social standing, by ready exercise of courtesy and friendly good humour, and by ready offering of individual sacrifice in protecting and preserving life.
6. To use physical force only when the exercise of persuasion, advice and warning is found to be insufficient to obtain public co-operation to an extent necessary to secure observance of law or to restore order, and to use only the minimum degree of physical force which is necessary on any particular occasion for achieving a police objective.
7. To maintain at all times a relationship with the public that gives reality to the historic tradition that the police are the public and that the public are the police, the police being only members of the public who are paid to give full-time attention to duties which are incumbent on every citizen in the interests of community welfare and existence.
8. To recognise always the need for strict adherence to police-executive functions, and to refrain from even seeming to usurp the powers of the judiciary of avenging individuals or the State, and of authoritatively judging guilt and punishing the guilty.
9. To recognise always that the test of police efficiency is the absence of crime and disorder, and not the visible evidence of police action in dealing with them.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peelian_principles

It looks like there's a lot here that most people would agree with.
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Old 11th June 2020, 08:40 AM   #165
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Originally Posted by Bob001 View Post
Removing bad actors woulid be one part of it. It might also involve enhanced patrols that make cops more visible to discourage crime, improved community relations so citizens are more likely to give information, working with the city to do simple stuff like improving street lighting and expanding social services, etc. "Preventative" could mean solving problems before they result in crimes.
Like the "broken windows" policy linked to previously, the prevailing sentiment seems to be towards removing tasks (like improving lighting, and social services) from the police- not expanding their duties.

Their primary duty is to remove bad actors from the community, it may be that that is where their responsibilities need to end.
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Old 11th June 2020, 08:48 AM   #166
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Originally Posted by Distracted1 View Post

Their primary duty is to remove bad actors from the community
Says who?
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Old 11th June 2020, 08:54 AM   #167
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Originally Posted by zooterkin View Post
Says who?
You could start here.

https://www.americanbar.org/groups/c...s_urbanpolice/
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Old 11th June 2020, 09:01 AM   #168
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Originally Posted by Distracted1 View Post
Perhaps you could quote the section that supports your contention. I'm seeing things like this:
Quote:
Standard 1-2.2. Major current responsibilities of police

In assessing appropriate objectives and priorities for police service, local communities should initially recognize that most police agencies are currently given responsibility, by design or default, to:

(a) identify criminal offenders and criminal activity and, where appropriate, to apprehend offenders and participate in subsequent court proceedings;

(b) reduce the opportunities for the commission of some crimes through preventive patrol and other measures;

(c) aid individuals who are in danger of physical harm;

(d) protect constitutional guarantees;

(e) facilitate the movement of people and vehicles;

(f) assist those who cannot care for themselves;

(g) resolve conflict;

(h) identify problems that are potentially serious law enforcement or governmental problems;

(i) create and maintain a feeling of security in the community;

(j)) promote and preserve civil order; and

(k) provide other services on an emergency basis.
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Old 11th June 2020, 09:03 AM   #169
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Originally Posted by zooterkin View Post
Perhaps you could quote the section that supports your contention. I'm seeing things like this:
I think the presumption in play here is that the item at the top of the list is the most important one, a presumption that the document doesn't seem to state or even imply.

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Old 11th June 2020, 10:34 AM   #170
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b) To achieve optimum police effectiveness, the police should be recognized as having complex and multiple tasks to perform in addition to identifying and apprehending persons committing serious criminal offenses. Such other police tasks include protection of certain rights such as to speak and to assemble, participation either directly or in conjunction with other public and social agencies in the prevention of criminal and delinquent behavior, maintenance of order and control of pedestrian and vehicular traffic, resolution of conflict, and assistance to citizens in need of help such as the person who is mentally ill, the chronic alcoholic, or the drug addict.

The various other duties are in addition to the primary duty of identifying and apprehending criminals.
All else is secondary.
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Old 11th June 2020, 12:35 PM   #171
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Originally Posted by lionking View Post
I donít know how many times Iíve said this over the years. One force per state would solve most of the problems with ill disciplined and poorly trained and resourced police. My state of Victoria has a population of about 6.5 million and a police force of 22,000. This is a large force by world standards and police behaviour is not perfect, but public approval is strong.

What are the barriers to abolishing or amalgamating the thousands of US police forces? I donít think itís constitutional. Is it just inertia?
I know this is a pages late reply but this is so not comparable. I don't care how big the population is in Victoria, nothing in your province compares to states in the US.

Statewide standards, that's fine. But combining the police departments is unrealistic.
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Old 11th June 2020, 12:41 PM   #172
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Has anyone mentioned the elephant in the room? Police need to police their own ranks if they expect support from the public.

They need to be able to distinguish between lying and covering up and backing colleagues when it is actually called for. If they think they need to lie and coverup lest colleagues not back them up in the field, that attitude and maybe a slew of cops need to go.

It's a Herculean task to be sure. But that's no reason not to undertake it.


I'd also like to see a study of the actual productiveness of patrolling the streets for people who look suspicious and making up reasons to stop and harass investigate them. I think it needs to stop.

And definitely bring in social workers to respond with police (for safety) to welfare checks or calls for help with a possibly mentally ill person in a crisis. Our fire department has done this. They respond to assist in things beyond the person who EMS is helping.
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Privatize the profits and socialize the losses. It's the American way. That's how Mnuchin got rich. Worse, he did it on the backs of elderly people who had been conned into reverse mortgages. Mnuchin paid zero, took on the debt then taxpayers bailed him out.

Space Force.
Because feeding poor people is socialism.

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Old 11th June 2020, 01:44 PM   #173
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Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger View Post
I know this is a pages late reply but this is so not comparable. I don't care how big the population is in Victoria, nothing in your province compares to states in the US.

Statewide standards, that's fine. But combining the police departments is unrealistic.
What is so special about the US? 6.5 million people is more than two thirds of the states. What's not comparable?
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Old 11th June 2020, 02:27 PM   #174
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Policing by consent a la peel seems to be the solution.
The hard part is getting 'gun toting, grizzly Adams, gerrouta ma field wheres me gun' types to accept it.
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Old 11th June 2020, 03:24 PM   #175
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Originally Posted by p0lka View Post
Policing by consent a la peel seems to be the solution.
The hard part is getting 'gun toting, grizzly Adams, gerrouta ma field wheres me gun' types to accept it.
That does not strike me as "the hard part".
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Old 11th June 2020, 03:32 PM   #176
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Originally Posted by zooterkin View Post
What is so special about the US? 6.5 million people is more than two thirds of the states. What's not comparable?
Are you serious? I'm a tad sarcasm challenged.
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Space Force.
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Old 11th June 2020, 05:52 PM   #177
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Originally Posted by zooterkin View Post
What is so special about the US? 6.5 million people is more than two thirds of the states. What's not comparable?
In the U.S. there are large regional and cultural differences within states, and people generally identify more closely with where they live than with the state they live in. Having one police force for, say, NYC and Buffalo, or Philadelphia and Erie, or Miami and Jacksonville, would be unmanageable, if not impossible, and would exaggerate the problems associated with cops patroling areas that they have no connection with. There is also the problem that police are mostly funded by local governments through their own taxes, fees, bonds etc. Creating one state police force would also require massive restructuring of who pays and how they pay.

One idea being kicked around is requiring all police officers to hold state licenses, which would establish standard education and training qualifications and impose standard performance measures. A cop could be disciplined for misconduct by the state authority apart from whatever his local force did, and a cop who lost his state license wouldn't be able to work as a cop anywhere in the state. All cops would be responsible to a state agency, but they wouldn't all be on the same force.
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Old 11th June 2020, 05:54 PM   #178
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Originally Posted by Bob001 View Post
In the U.S. there are large regional and cultural differences within states, and people generally identify more closely with where they live than with the state they live in. Having one police force for, say, NYC and Buffalo, or Philadelphia and Erie, or Miami and Jacksonville, would be unmanageable, if not impossible, and would exaggerate the problems associated with cops patroling areas that they have no connection with. There is also the problem that police are mostly funded by local governments through their own taxes, fees, bonds etc. Creating one state police force would also require massive restructuring of who pays and how they pay.

One idea being kicked around is requiring all police officers to hold state licenses, which would establish standard education and training qualifications and impose standard performance measures. A cop could be disciplined for misconduct by the state authority apart from whatever his local force did, and a cop who lost his state license wouldn't be able to work as a cop anywhere in the state. All cops would be responsible to a state agency, but they wouldn't all be on the same force.
I've been saying for years - the United States isn't one country divided into states, it's 50 different countries who have all agreed to work together in some ways.
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Old 11th June 2020, 05:58 PM   #179
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Originally Posted by arthwollipot View Post
I've been saying for years - the United States isn't one country divided into states, it's 50 different countries who have all agreed to work together in some ways.
Um, yeah. That's literally the idea behind the place. Hence the name.
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Old 11th June 2020, 05:58 PM   #180
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Yeah and the Civil War should have smacked that idea down hard.

And oddly the the biggest "But muh state's rights" states are also the ones that can't function on their own.

If Mississippi really was "it's on country" in any sense of the term it would be completely bankrupt.
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Old 11th June 2020, 06:05 PM   #181
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Originally Posted by arthwollipot View Post
I've been saying for years - the United States isn't one country divided into states, it's 50 different countries who have all agreed to work together in some ways.

A journalist wrote pretty successful book in 1981 where he argued that North American could reasonably be divided into nine nations, based on the cultures, economies and other factors.
https://www.amazon.com/Nine-Nations-.../dp/0380578859
https://www.nytimes.com/roomfordebat...30-years-later
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Old 11th June 2020, 06:07 PM   #182
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Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
Yeah and the Civil War should have smacked that idea down hard.
....
You're kidding, right? The Old South never stopped fighting the Civil War. What do you think Confederate memorials and the Stars and Bars are about?
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Old 11th June 2020, 06:26 PM   #183
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Originally Posted by arthwollipot View Post
I've been saying for years - the United States isn't one country divided into states, it's 50 different countries who have all agreed to work together in some ways.
To a small extent, somewhat.
More like 3 or 4 different ones, really.

A Pennsylvanian doesn't consider himself different from an Ohioan, New Jersian, Michigander, or New Yorker.

You might get a resident of one of those States to feel a little different from someone from the Southwest, or Deep South. But 50 independent countries- not so much.

ETA partially ninja' by post 181
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Old 11th June 2020, 06:33 PM   #184
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Originally Posted by ponderingturtle View Post
Or with a 12 year old playing in the park with a toy gun. You have to shoot first.

Or how about a report of a black man with a gun in Colorado where open carry and such is nice and legal. So you pull guns on him and his 3 kids because why not, blacks should know that the second amendment does not apply to them after all. He was of course unarmed.
Or the guy holding a carrying a sword as part of his Samurai Champloo cosplay.

Or the guy with his hands up trying to assist an autistic patient that got out of the care facility.

Or the 12 year old black girl you see in her own backyard when responding to a call for three white prostitutes.

Or the guy that reaches for his ID, after you ask him for his ID.

No, not that one.

Not that one, either.

Yeah, *him*

Or the guy you have handcuffed and lying on his stomach.

Or the guy who was just riding his bike.

Or the guy that said "hello." as he walked by some other guy.

Or the guy that looked at you.

*sigh* No, not him.

Or him.

Or *Him*

There you go.

How about the kid sitting on his friend's porch?

Or the guy that told you to please move from *his own* porch?

Or the guy that just got off the bus, and *showed you the printed receipt proving he had paid his fare* when you accused him of not doing so?

How about the guy that just asked to not be harassed for just standing around?

How about the guy that *filmed* you strangling that guy?

We can switch it up - how about the native American that was "off the rez"?

Haha, good luck figuring out which incident I mean there...

First problem is that far too many people talk about "reestablishing trust", and I have to wonder, whose trust are they discussing, because it's certainly not trust between them and any non-white community. Police in the US have always been characterized by corruption, brutality, and white supremacism, a lot of communities have always hated them. In the end, quite a few should likely be dissolved and replaced, along with the union and the academy - with an emphasis on serious crimes, and possible fines for minor ones, and an abandonment of NYC-style "broken windows" policing that demands more arrests every year, and a complete ban on military surplus at lower than state level. If your town is 5,000 people and has a name that Bugs Bunny likely made up, you don't need mine-resistant *anything*.

Will it make police safer? Actually, it may - at the very least, they won't be (correctly) seen as the largest gang in the city. And you won't have cops saying "Maybe when I see some guys talking on the street corner, maybe I should just leave them alone" like it's a threat - really, you should leave them alone unless you have an actual reason to be suspicious of them - or you're a detective investigating a major crime and think they could be witnesses.

There are other suggestions that could help (strong discipline, civilian review boards with teeth, etc), but they've been discussed already.

ETA: A lot of people have switched from "It's a few bad apples." to "Wow, there are more bad apples than I thought." Yet again, the problem is that the barrel staves are rotting and foul.

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Old 11th June 2020, 06:34 PM   #185
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Originally Posted by Bob001 View Post
In the U.S. there are large regional and cultural differences within states, and people generally identify more closely with where they live than with the state they live in. Having one police force for, say, NYC and Buffalo, or Philadelphia and Erie, or Miami and Jacksonville, would be unmanageable, if not impossible, and would exaggerate the problems associated with cops patroling areas that they have no connection with. There is also the problem that police are mostly funded by local governments through their own taxes, fees, bonds etc. Creating one state police force would also require massive restructuring of who pays and how they pay.
I guess Americans are just going to have to keep on living with more George Floyd's. It's just their way of life and they can't help themselves. You are just ungovernable.
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Old 11th June 2020, 07:19 PM   #186
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Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
Yeah and the Civil War should have smacked that idea down hard.
Remind me what the winning side was called? Was it "The Union"? The US has always meant to be a union of states: in over two hundred years we haven't dissolved or merged any of them in favor of a single entity, or even fewer ones than the current number.
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Old 11th June 2020, 07:38 PM   #187
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All of the complex ideas of reform suggested here are valid, and interesting, but: If we might focus on the white-supremacism-racism angle here, might that not be open to the straightforward solution of (far) greater affirmative action? Having police numbers reflect population demographics (much) more closely, in terms of race, would seem to be a good idea, at the broad-idea level, to deal with this issue, without necessarily stopping first to untangle every other knot tripping up the system.
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Old 11th June 2020, 07:57 PM   #188
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Originally Posted by Arcade22 View Post
I guess Americans are just going to have to keep on living with more George Floyd's. It's just their way of life and they can't help themselves. You are just ungovernable.
No, every department could hold its cops to the same high standards of professionalism and restraint, and could be legally required to do so. They don't have to be merged. And the cops are not the people who govern us.
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Old 11th June 2020, 08:21 PM   #189
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Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger View Post
I know this is a pages late reply but this is so not comparable. I don't care how big the population is in Victoria, nothing in your province compares to states in the US.

Statewide standards, that's fine. But combining the police departments is unrealistic.
A national police force sounds like an interesting idea until you realize what kind of national leadership we've got. If they're run by the crush-and-prevail liars and bozos who dominate the national scene now we might end up with a badly answered prayer. We won't hear about police murders any more, but not because they're rare, rather because they're routine.

Of course I'm speaking as a Vermonter here, and nothing meant to be critical of other places, but the solution to bad cops in other cities is not to spread them all over.
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Old 11th June 2020, 08:26 PM   #190
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Originally Posted by Mumbles View Post
ETA: A lot of people have switched from "It's a few bad apples." to "Wow, there are more bad apples than I thought." Yet again, the problem is that the barrel staves are rotting and foul.
They said "a few bad apples" about Abu Ghraib, too. Thing is, apples don't go bad if they're cared for properly before you eat them.
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Old 11th June 2020, 08:51 PM   #191
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Originally Posted by arthwollipot View Post
They said "a few bad apples" about Abu Ghraib, too. Thing is, apples don't go bad if they're cared for properly before you eat them.
I don't eat apples myself, but when I find a few rotten and horrible blueberries or strawberries I throw out the whole container because even if some of them are actually okay they've been in too close proximity for too long for me to be comfortable with.
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Old 11th June 2020, 09:17 PM   #192
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Originally Posted by TragicMonkey View Post
I don't eat apples myself, but when I find a few rotten and horrible blueberries or strawberries I throw out the whole container because even if some of them are actually okay they've been in too close proximity for too long for me to be comfortable with.
Portland, Oregon agrees with you.
The US city of Portland, Oregon, is dumping 38m gallons (143m litres) of water from its reservoir after a teenager was caught urinating into the water supply.
Portland emptied 7.5 million gallons of water from the same reservoir in 2011 after a man urinated into it.
On Wednesday, Mr Shaff said while animal waste often found its way into the reservoir without any public health risk, there was "at least a perceived difference from my perspective" on human waste.
"I could be wrong on that, but the reality is our customers don't anticipate drinking water that's been contaminated by some yahoo who decided to pee into a reservoir," he said.
(No babies were injured in either of these stories)
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Old 11th June 2020, 09:23 PM   #193
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Originally Posted by EHocking View Post
Portland, Oregon agrees with you.
The US city of Portland, Oregon, is dumping 38m gallons (143m litres) of water from its reservoir after a teenager was caught urinating into the water supply.
Portland emptied 7.5 million gallons of water from the same reservoir in 2011 after a man urinated into it.
On Wednesday, Mr Shaff said while animal waste often found its way into the reservoir without any public health risk, there was "at least a perceived difference from my perspective" on human waste.
"I could be wrong on that, but the reality is our customers don't anticipate drinking water that's been contaminated by some yahoo who decided to pee into a reservoir," he said.
(No babies were injured in either of these stories)
Gee, what would it cost to build a fence around their reservoir? If it's that easily accessible, they should worry about a lot more than somebody taking a leak.
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Old 11th June 2020, 09:39 PM   #194
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Originally Posted by Bob001 View Post
Gee, what would it cost to build a fence around their reservoir? If it's that easily accessible, they should worry about a lot more than somebody taking a leak.
Fences have to be maintained, just like police forces.
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Old 11th June 2020, 11:45 PM   #195
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Originally Posted by Bob001 View Post
Gee, what would it cost to build a fence around their reservoir? If it's that easily accessible, they should worry about a lot more than somebody taking a leak.
There IS a fence around the Portland water supply; a pretty high and sheer one too, last I was there. Persistent individuals can still find a way.
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Old 12th June 2020, 02:41 AM   #196
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Originally Posted by ponderingturtle View Post
The police in the US.

Here is an article by a former cop explaining why all cops are bastards including him.

https://medium.com/@OfcrACab/confess...p-bb14d17bc759
Is that really written by a real former policeman or is it apocryphal?
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Old 12th June 2020, 04:50 AM   #197
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Originally Posted by EHocking View Post
Portland, Oregon, is dumping 38m gallons (143m litres) of water from its reservoir after a teenager was caught urinating into the water supply
That's insane. Even the fullest of bladders against 38 million gallons of water is homeopathy level of diluted. And it's an open air reservoir, there's more animal pee in then this dude's I'd wager.
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Old 12th June 2020, 04:52 AM   #198
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Originally Posted by TragicMonkey View Post
I don't eat apples myself, but when I find a few rotten and horrible blueberries or strawberries I throw out the whole container because even if some of them are actually okay they've been in too close proximity for too long for me to be comfortable with.
"It just like I've always said. Don't stick your dick in a pudding. It can still be a perfectly good pudding and you can spend all day explaining it but no one is going to want to eat it because you stuck your dick in it. - Yahtzee Croshaw
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Old 12th June 2020, 05:34 AM   #199
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Originally Posted by Bob001 View Post
And the cops are not the people who govern us.
No one governs the cops though, which was kinda the point i was making. Even "progressive liberal" states like Califorina or New York are powerless to rein in local law enforcement.
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Last edited by Arcade22; 12th June 2020 at 05:36 AM.
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Old 12th June 2020, 05:35 AM   #200
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One MAJOR fix would be to not let the Police have a cent from the fines and confiscations they collect.
We don't pay fireman from the yard sale of slight-burned furniture or the insurance money.
Budgets need to be completely decoupled from the money the department brings in.


There can't ever be any profit motive in policing.
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