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Old 18th June 2020, 08:52 AM   #281
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Originally Posted by eeyore1954 View Post
It was on the internet. What more is needed?
Nice way to avoid actually addressing any of the content of the article.
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Old 18th June 2020, 09:54 AM   #282
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Originally Posted by trustbutverify View Post
Is there any evidence this guy was a cop, outside of his claims?
Originally Posted by ponderingturtle View Post
Nice way to avoid actually addressing any of the content of the article.
Wouldn't you like to know if someone claiming he knows all cops are trash because he was a cop, actually was one? Or is that unimportant?
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Old 18th June 2020, 10:37 AM   #283
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Originally Posted by trustbutverify View Post
Wouldn't you like to know if someone claiming he knows all cops are trash because he was a cop, actually was one? Or is that unimportant?
The positions raised fit with what a lot of police have said, but hey continue attacking the individual and not the argument that is skepticism 101 right there I think.
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Old 18th June 2020, 11:01 AM   #284
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Originally Posted by Darat View Post
I take it then that 1) you don't know how much was given to residents and 2) guilt by association for all residents who aren't addicts.
Money is not given by charities directly to residents of the area. The money is spent on social programs, food, and the like. To learn the total spent a person would have to review the books of all the myriad charities that operate in the area.

Any resident of the area that is observed spending their days loitering on the streets and in the parks of the area, ie those that the local charities interact with, is almost certainly a drug addict. Those few residents who live in the area due solely to poverty do not spend their days on the streets and do not interact extensively with the charity workers.

If you are looking for confirmed numbers as evidence of rockinkt’s comments I doubt that any are available. As a resident of Vancouver for over 50 years I have observed the area personally on many, many occasions and been exposed to almost daily reports of the problems on the local news. rockinkt’s comments, while anecdotal, are a fair representation of the reality of life in east Hastings.
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Old 18th June 2020, 11:09 AM   #285
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Originally Posted by ponderingturtle View Post
The positions raised fit with what a lot of police have said, but hey continue attacking the individual and not the argument that is skepticism 101 right there I think.
Is that a yes or a no?
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Old 18th June 2020, 11:27 AM   #286
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Originally Posted by trustbutverify View Post
We could run an experiment. Eliminate law enforcement nationwide for a year, collect data.
Or we could look at relevant examples and infer.
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Old 18th June 2020, 11:40 AM   #287
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Originally Posted by trustbutverify View Post
Is that a yes or a no?
I am saying it doesn't matter the substance fit well with what articles and statements by confirmed former cops(no current cop would dare rocking the boat by admitting any such problems). But this isn't the place for substantive discussions I guess.
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Old 18th June 2020, 01:50 PM   #288
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Originally Posted by catsmate View Post
Or we could look at relevant examples and infer.
Or we can run a long term experiment, which has the added benefit of seeing how effective emerging community efforts to fill the vacuum are.
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Old 18th June 2020, 01:54 PM   #289
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Originally Posted by ponderingturtle View Post
I am saying it doesn't matter the substance fit well with what articles and statements by confirmed former cops(no current cop would dare rocking the boat by admitting any such problems). But this isn't the place for substantive discussions I guess.
Interesting. I was under the impression the authenticity of a source did matter. Oh well.
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Old 18th June 2020, 08:35 PM   #290
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Originally Posted by Dave Rogers View Post
The problem, though, with the US police is not perceived as a generally effective service with a few outlying incidents of bad actors within it, but as a service so thoroughly broken that it is in effect causing an increase in the level of crime and a decrease in the safety of citizens. In those circumstances it's hardly surprising that some people think it would be better to abolish it altogether. I'm not saying they're right, just acknowledging where their feelings come from. Personally I recognize that there are other states a society can be in than either total anarchy or occupation by a hostile and oppressive force, and that many other countries demonstrate this beyond the possibility of doubt; however, the flip side of American exceptionalism is a barrier to implementing solutions known to be effective elsewhere. So I can understand how people who have convinced themselves that the choice is between a violently oppressive police force and no police force at all might choose the latter.

Dave
And yet people in other countries that have far worse police than those in America do not support abolishing the police. One has to be utterly divorced from reality to think that the absence of police is something positive and that it solves anything. Completely ignorant of history too, given that modern police were developed as a way to avoid the countless issues and problems that previous forms of law enforcement suffered from.
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Old 19th June 2020, 04:52 AM   #291
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Originally Posted by Dave Rogers View Post
The problem, though, with the US police is not perceived as a generally effective service with a few outlying incidents of bad actors within it, but as a service so thoroughly broken that it is in effect causing an increase in the level of crime and a decrease in the safety of citizens. In those circumstances it's hardly surprising that some people think it would be better to abolish it altogether. I'm not saying they're right, just acknowledging where their feelings come from. Personally I recognize that there are other states a society can be in than either total anarchy or occupation by a hostile and oppressive force, and that many other countries demonstrate this beyond the possibility of doubt; however, the flip side of American exceptionalism is a barrier to implementing solutions known to be effective elsewhere. So I can understand how people who have convinced themselves that the choice is between a violently oppressive police force and no police force at all might choose the latter.

Dave
You need a qualifier in there.
A large number of Americans- perhaps even a substantive majority of them- see the police as a generally effective service with a few problems, and not as a broken system that causes more crime.
Maybe the decreasing crime rates over the last few decades has something to do with that.
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Old 19th June 2020, 08:22 AM   #292
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I think it's likely true that most people in most places would rather not abolish the police altogether, and see them as, at least in theory, a necessary element of safety and social order. The problem, as so often seems the case, is that arrogant and overbearing leaders have for so long used that desire for safety and order as an excuse for corruption and excess and repression, and now when it's finally reached the breaking point, they feign shock that people are unwilling to forget the last couple of generations of excess and to give them the incremental evolutionary chance they spurned over and over.

One more chance. We promise we'll do better this time. Just leave it to us.

Just as with statues, or for that matter with environmental issues and the like, it would be nice if we could rewind the tape to 1960 or some time, when people who should have been able to see ahead far enough could start making the changes that would prevent later crises. But we can't and they didn't. Most people in power don't. We get away with things as long as we can. We go for today's profit and screw the next decade.

Towns go bankrupt trying to build sewage plants they could have financed over the 40 years they dumped their turds in the river. Car makers go bankrupt trying to meet standards they could have met, or perhaps would never have needed, if they'd spent a little more on emissions and a little less on chrome tailpipe extensions. Police forces that have become little better than gangs of thugs whine when "suddenly" they're expected to stop doing what they never should have done in the first place.

The term "police brutality" is hardly new. People have been talking about it for years, and police have been doing it for years. They had a chance to fix it and refused because they believed they had the power to go ahead, to set their own rules and their own internal controls which controlled little if anything.

Offensive statues have been offensive for years, but those in power believed they had the power to ignore criticism, or to make empty promises.

I certainly would prefer evolution to revolution, but I don't think it's too hard to understand the attitude of many that it's too late for that, that after generations of broken promises another promise just won't do it this time.
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Old 19th June 2020, 08:41 AM   #293
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Originally Posted by bruto View Post
I think it's likely true that most people in most places would rather not abolish the police altogether, and see them as, at least in theory, a necessary element of safety and social order. The problem, as so often seems the case, is that arrogant and overbearing leaders have for so long used that desire for safety and order as an excuse for corruption and excess and repression, and now when it's finally reached the breaking point, they feign shock that people are unwilling to forget the last couple of generations of excess and to give them the incremental evolutionary chance they spurned over and over.

One more chance. We promise we'll do better this time. Just leave it to us.

Just as with statues, or for that matter with environmental issues and the like, it would be nice if we could rewind the tape to 1960 or some time, when people who should have been able to see ahead far enough could start making the changes that would prevent later crises. But we can't and they didn't. Most people in power don't. We get away with things as long as we can. We go for today's profit and screw the next decade.

Towns go bankrupt trying to build sewage plants they could have financed over the 40 years they dumped their turds in the river. Car makers go bankrupt trying to meet standards they could have met, or perhaps would never have needed, if they'd spent a little more on emissions and a little less on chrome tailpipe extensions. Police forces that have become little better than gangs of thugs whine when "suddenly" they're expected to stop doing what they never should have done in the first place.

The term "police brutality" is hardly new. People have been talking about it for years, and police have been doing it for years. They had a chance to fix it and refused because they believed they had the power to go ahead, to set their own rules and their own internal controls which controlled little if anything.

Offensive statues have been offensive for years, but those in power believed they had the power to ignore criticism, or to make empty promises.

I certainly would prefer evolution to revolution, but I don't think it's too hard to understand the attitude of many that it's too late for that, that after generations of broken promises another promise just won't do it this time.
You have not noticed an evolution in policing over the past fifty years?
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Old 19th June 2020, 08:54 AM   #294
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Originally Posted by bruto View Post
I think it's likely true that most people in most places would rather not abolish the police altogether, and see them as, at least in theory, a necessary element of safety and social order.
During cultural revolutions the majority (most people) is not necessarily who will be deciding upon and creating the new world.
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Old 19th June 2020, 01:08 PM   #295
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Originally Posted by bruto View Post
The term "police brutality" is hardly new. People have been talking about it for years, and police have been doing it for years. They had a chance to fix it and refused because they believed they had the power to go ahead, to set their own rules and their own internal controls which controlled little if anything.
Actually it has continued because politicians have refused to make the necessary reforms to hold police to account even when scholars have pointed out the problems time and time again.

Ultimately, since law enforcement organisations notionally operate according to laws and regulations enacted by democratically elected legislators and politicians, their conduct should be the simplest and most straight forward to restrain. Yet even in "liberal progressive" California the state government and legislature seem either incapable or unwilling to rein in pretty awful local police departments.
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Old 19th June 2020, 03:15 PM   #296
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Originally Posted by Distracted1 View Post
You have not noticed an evolution in policing over the past fifty years?
Of course some things have changed, some for the better and some for the worse. It appears from what we're seeing now that not enough has changed, and that the police still often look at themselves less as guardians of the people and more as guardians against them.

Are we safer from the police than we were 50 years ago? Is it reasonable even to ask the question in that way in a civilized society?
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Old 19th June 2020, 03:17 PM   #297
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Originally Posted by Distracted1 View Post
You have not noticed an evolution in policing over the past fifty years?
In some parts of the USA, no, not really.
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Old 19th June 2020, 03:22 PM   #298
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Originally Posted by catsmate View Post
In some parts of the USA, no, not really.
Which parts are those? And from whence does your expertise come?
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Old 19th June 2020, 06:13 PM   #299
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The problem is police policy is locally controlled and because voting in local elections is even lower than state or national, there is no incentive to make changes. The most reliable voters are old white people who probably don't care about police reform.
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Old 19th June 2020, 08:12 PM   #300
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Originally Posted by Jerrymander View Post
The problem is police policy is locally controlled and because voting in local elections is even lower than state or national, there is no incentive to make changes. The most reliable voters are old white people who probably don't care about police reform.
You know "old white people" are often extremely in favor of individual freedom, smaller governments, and fewer laws right?

Fewer laws and more individual freedom means fewer reasons for LEO to come calling, regardless who you are or what you're doing.
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Old 20th June 2020, 05:16 AM   #301
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Originally Posted by DragonLady View Post
You know "old white people" are often extremely in favor of individual freedom, smaller governments, and fewer laws right?

Fewer laws and more individual freedom means fewer reasons for LEO to come calling, regardless who you are or what you're doing.
You know that conservative Republicans claim to support "individual freedom" and "fewer laws" while supporting more "law and order" and more policing all the time right?

If you think old boomers are in favor of defunding police, I have a plot of land to sell you on Mars.

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Old 20th June 2020, 05:24 AM   #302
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Originally Posted by Jerrymander View Post
You know that conservative Republicans claim to support "individual freedom" and "fewer laws" while supporting more "law and order" and more policing all the time right?

If you think old boomers are in favor of defunding police, I have a plot of land to sell you on Mars.
The two are not mutually exclusive.
One can be in favor of broad personal freedoms while simultaneously demsnding high personal responsibility.

Smoke all the meth you want- but if it gets you fighting with the cops don't be surprised when you wind up dead.

One can even be a Liberal and support those freedoms.
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Old 20th June 2020, 07:01 AM   #303
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Originally Posted by Distracted1 View Post
The two are not mutually exclusive.
Thank you for proving my point. Now are old freedom loving people in favor of ending broken window policing?

Last edited by Jerrymander; 20th June 2020 at 07:06 AM.
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Old 20th June 2020, 07:11 AM   #304
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Originally Posted by Jerrymander View Post
Thank you for proving my point. Now are old freedom loving people in favor of ending broken window policing?
You are too young to grasp the subtlety.
Return to the conversation when you have gained some perspective.
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Old 20th June 2020, 07:51 AM   #305
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Originally Posted by Distracted1 View Post
Which parts are those? And from whence does your expertise come?
Rural mid-west, smaller cities and the south. Living, travelling and speaking to people.


Originally Posted by DragonLady View Post
You know "old white people" are often extremely in favor of individual freedom, smaller governments, and fewer laws right?
"Individual freedom" for them, and people like them. They frequently have no problem with police harassment of "others".
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Old 20th June 2020, 07:51 AM   #306
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Originally Posted by Jerrymander View Post
The problem is police policy is locally controlled and because voting in local elections is even lower than state or national, there is no incentive to make changes. The most reliable voters are old white people who probably don't care about police reform.
The main problem lies in the lack of genuine interest of state level politicians to fix the problem by either making local law enforcement agencies directly accountable to state level civil servants, or simply making police operate entirely on a state level. Instead by keeping it a local affair they can just shrug off any responsibility by saying "not my problem".

Generally speaking, the more stakeholders there are with an interest in something such as law enforcement, the more people there will be concerned about the quality of it since more people stand to be affected by it.
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Old 20th June 2020, 07:52 AM   #307
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Originally Posted by Distracted1 View Post
You are too young to grasp the subtlety.
Return to the conversation when you have gained some perspective.

Pathetic evasion.
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Old 20th June 2020, 08:54 AM   #308
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Originally Posted by catsmate View Post
Rural mid-west, smaller cities and the south. Living, travelling and speaking to people.



"Individual freedom" for them, and people like them. They frequently have no problem with police harassment of "others".
Over a span of how long?
You are asserting that the police in the rural Midwest, smaller cities, and the South have not evolved. You are basing that on your personal experience of having passed through these places.
Did you pass through at intervals over the last 6 decades in order to compare behaviors? A single snapshot cannot show evolution.
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Old 20th June 2020, 09:30 AM   #309
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Originally Posted by Jerrymander View Post
Thank you for proving my point. Now are old freedom loving people in favor of ending broken window policing?
Personally I'm not convinced the "broken window" theory is at fault for the police being too quick to step on throats or pull triggers.

I do believe most freedom loving people -young and old- want to live in clean, orderly environments where everyone takes personal responsibility for themselves, and where the members of the communities are able to work together to solve larger issues within those environments.

I'll admit some of the most vocal freedom lovers want to live in total anarchy, but I think -loud as they are- they're a very small minority.

Seems to me asking "what do we do with the police" is only an important question if we want the police to change their tactics.

If we want to change legal theories, or change the laws the police are charged with upholding, that's another subject. If one believes those problems are the fault of "old white people" because they're the ones that vote...seems a better question would be "how do we get other demographics to vote?".


Quote:
"Individual freedom" for them, and people like them.
I think it would be more accurate to say "people who are able and willing to work with them to create & maintain a living space that is acceptable to all who share it".

The difference looks like this:

"The Jones' down the street are black (Eastern, Hispanic, Indian, White) so we don't want to live in the same neighborhood."
vs
"The Jones' down the street have a yard full of weeds and trash, shouting at all hours, and gunshots sometimes, so we don't want to live in the same neighborhood".

It doesn't say "we don't want the Jones' to live" or "the only good Jones is in jail" or "it's acceptable for the police to mistreat the Jones'".
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Old 20th June 2020, 10:13 AM   #310
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Quote:
I think it would be more accurate to say "people who are able and willing to work with them to create & maintain a living space that is acceptable to all who share it".
That has to be a mutual thing. Where have they shown that they been willing to work with them on police reform. All I hear is "yeah that's bad but what about the riots and cop killings".

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Old 20th June 2020, 10:22 AM   #311
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Originally Posted by Jerrymander View Post
You're playing into the narrative that anybody who gets abused by the police must have done it to themselves. I personally don't think that an officer who harasses a person for looking suspicious has earned politeness.
No; I'm not.

I'm utterly and completely against the police abusing anyone, and have spoken out against their tactics many, many times over the years I've been here.

However, I'm also the first to say the police have to uphold the laws as they're written; and they have every right to protect themselves if someone poses a threat.

If the legislation says "every person looking suspicious will be contacted by the police" it's not the LEOs fault he has to contact every suspicious person -and many of them will feel like they've been harassed.

If that's the way it is, change the LAWS not the OFFICERS.
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Old 20th June 2020, 10:27 AM   #312
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Originally Posted by Jerrymander View Post
That has to be a mutual thing. Where have they shown that they been willing to work with them on police reform. All I hear is "yeah that's bad but what about the riots and cop killings".
What about the riots and cop killings?

The constitution gives us a right to PEACABLY assemble. It doesn't give anyone -white, black, or blue- the right to riot. Nor does anyone have the right to kill or try to kill a police officer.

That said, I do not believe police officers should have the right to pepper spray calm, peaceful people, shoot into crowds just because it's a crowd, or assault people who are not acting violently or committing a crime.

People on both sides of the fence need to act like responsible adults, and recognize both sides of every issue have the right to be both seen and heard.
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Old 20th June 2020, 10:29 AM   #313
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Originally Posted by DragonLady View Post
No; I'm not.

I'm utterly and completely against the police abusing anyone, and have spoken out against their tactics many, many times over the years I've been here.

However, I'm also the first to say the police have to uphold the laws as they're written; and they have every right to protect themselves if someone poses a threat.

If the legislation says "every person looking suspicious will be contacted by the police" it's not the LEOs fault he has to contact every suspicious person -and many of them will feel like they've been harassed.

If that's the way it is, change the LAWS not the OFFICERS.
I think that's true up to a point, but theory and practice often clash. "Every person looking suspicious" is a judgment call, and if the problem is that the police (or various other elements in society too) read into that the presumption that being black makes you suspicious then it is not only the law that must be changed. There may or may not be a way to make a law so discretionary work at all, but any law that is even a little discretionary will not work if the discretion itself is racially biased.
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Old 20th June 2020, 10:37 AM   #314
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Originally Posted by bruto View Post
I think that's true up to a point, but theory and practice often clash. "Every person looking suspicious" is a judgment call, and if the problem is that the police (or various other elements in society too) read into that the presumption that being black makes you suspicious then it is not only the law that must be changed. There may or may not be a way to make a law so discretionary work at all, but any law that is even a little discretionary will not work if the discretion itself is racially biased.
I agree.

Every person has biases. Everyone. It's human nature, and it's not gonna change much in the next thousand years. The only ways to make absolutely certain there's no racial bias in policing is to eliminate the job or replace human officers with machines. But I think both of those "solutions" are a whole new set of problems.

The best we can do is write clear laws, make sure both officers and the people in the area know those laws (I'm extremely against LE doing anything to "encourage" or "entice" anyone into breaking a law), and teach them to deescalate situations that arise before someone has become unruly.
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Old 20th June 2020, 11:00 AM   #315
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Originally Posted by DragonLady View Post
I agree.

Every person has biases. Everyone. It's human nature, and it's not gonna change much in the next thousand years. The only ways to make absolutely certain there's no racial bias in policing is to eliminate the job or replace human officers with machines. But I think both of those "solutions" are a whole new set of problems.

The best we can do is write clear laws, make sure both officers and the people in the area know those laws (I'm extremely against LE doing anything to "encourage" or "entice" anyone into breaking a law), and teach them to deescalate situations that arise before someone has become unruly.
Being unruly already is often why police get involved.

From a well publicized 2019 statistic: US police killed 1,004 suspects.

All but 28 we're armed. Of the 28 unarmed, 10 were black (not even counting the guy using a car to run people down as a weapon)

Methinks I see the primary problem with police killing.
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Old 20th June 2020, 11:08 AM   #316
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Originally Posted by Thermal View Post
Being unruly already is often why police get involved.

From a well publicized 2019 statistic: US police killed 1,004 suspects.

All but 28 we're armed. Of the 28 unarmed, 10 were black (not even counting the guy using a car to run people down as a weapon)

Methinks I see the primary problem with police killing.
So...the majority of unarmed people killed by the police were NOT black?
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Old 20th June 2020, 11:11 AM   #317
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Originally Posted by DragonLady View Post
So...the majority of unarmed people killed by the police were NOT black?
Yup. Still disproportionate at 18:10 tho
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Old 20th June 2020, 11:19 AM   #318
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Originally Posted by DragonLady View Post
So...the majority of unarmed people killed by the police were NOT black?
True, but on a per capita basis alone, fewer than four of those would be black. And unfortunately that's only if you trust the source of the statistics.
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Old 20th June 2020, 11:19 AM   #319
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Originally Posted by Thermal View Post
Yup. Still disproportionate at 18:10 tho
Clearly, there are other issues at work besides racism. I'm sure it plays a part, but there's more going on -and those other issues need to be identified and minimized, too.
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Old 20th June 2020, 11:20 AM   #320
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Originally Posted by Thermal View Post
....
Being unruly already is often why police get involved.

From a well publicized 2019 statistic: US police killed 1,004 suspects.

All but 28 we're armed.
.....
Link, please. And were they in fact armed? Or did the cops just think/claim they were armed?
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