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Tags Minneapolis incidents , police incidents , police misconduct charges

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Old 29th June 2020, 05:19 AM   #1361
erlando
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Originally Posted by Fast Eddie B View Post
Don’t recall a specific law in Florida re: brandishing.
2019 Florida Statutes Title XLVI Chapter 790 Section 10:

Originally Posted by http://www.leg.state.fl.us/Statutes/index.cfm?App_mode=Display_Statute&URL=0700-0799/0790/Sections/0790.10.html
Improper exhibition of dangerous weapons or firearms.—If any person having or carrying any dirk, sword, sword cane, firearm, electric weapon or device, or other weapon shall, in the presence of one or more persons, exhibit the same in a rude, careless, angry, or threatening manner, not in necessary self-defense, the person so offending shall be guilty of a misdemeanor of the first degree, punishable as provided in s. 775.082 or s. 775.083.


Quote:
There’s “Reckless Display of a Firearm”. There’s “Aggravated Assault”.

If the gun was pointed at someone and that put them in fear, I’d say Aggravated Assault. Having her finger in the trigger guard would be an aggravating circumstance - one is trained never to do that until ready to shoot.
She is pointing a gun directly at people with her finger on the trigger. I'd say that would put anyone "in fear"..
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Old 29th June 2020, 05:28 AM   #1362
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Originally Posted by erlando View Post
2019 Florida Statutes Title XLVI Chapter 790 Section 10:







She is pointing a gun directly at people with her finger on the trigger. I'd say that would put anyone "in fear"..
The video is from Missouri. I think Eddie was just referencing Florida law based on personal experience.

I'm sure Missouri has some sort of law that makes pointing a gun at someone illegal. Whether that's a separate brandishing statute or just lumped in with an assault statute is hair splitting.
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Old 29th June 2020, 05:33 AM   #1363
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Originally Posted by SuburbanTurkey View Post
The video is from Missouri. I think Eddie was just referencing Florida law based on personal experience.

I'm sure Missouri has some sort of law that makes pointing a gun at someone illegal. Whether that's a separate brandishing statute or just lumped in with an assault statute is hair splitting.
Turns out they do:

Missouri revised statutes section 571.030

Originally Posted by https://revisor.mo.gov/main/OneSection.aspx?section=571.030
...
(4) Exhibits, in the presence of one or more persons, any weapon readily capable of lethal use in an angry or threatening manner; or
...
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Last edited by erlando; 29th June 2020 at 05:34 AM. Reason: This is not about statues...
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Old 29th June 2020, 05:48 AM   #1364
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Originally Posted by erlando View Post
Thanks for finding this.

If my reading is correct, pointing a firearm is one of the listed offences that qualifies as a felony rather than a misdemeanor under this statute.
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Old 29th June 2020, 07:52 AM   #1365
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Originally Posted by erlando View Post
She is pointing a gun directly at people with her finger on the trigger. I'd say that would put anyone "in fear"..
Yea but going fully for that kind of thing will put police in danger when they pull their guns and point them at people for no reason, I mean imagine if they had to justify pulling a gun and assaulting someone everytime they pointed their gun at someone? Crazy talk that. Having a gun pointed you is just not that big a deal and should clearly be treated as such.
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Old 29th June 2020, 08:16 AM   #1366
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Originally Posted by ponderingturtle View Post
Yea but going fully for that kind of thing will put police in danger when they pull their guns and point them at people for no reason, I mean imagine if they had to justify pulling a gun and assaulting someone everytime they pointed their gun at someone? Crazy talk that. Having a gun pointed you is just not that big a deal and should clearly be treated as such.
Oh sorry. I forgot this happened in the US. Let me just....

Having a gun pointed at you is no big deal. The person with the gun is just excersizing their God-given 2nd amendment rights / police SOP and you should think nothing of it. If you are doing nothing wrong they will return the favor and not shoot you. Maybe.
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Old 29th June 2020, 09:15 AM   #1367
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Aurora PD violently scatter peaceful demonstrators who had gathered for a "violin vigil" protesting the death of Elijiah McClain.

They descended on the crowd and scattered them with pepper spray.

They really can't themselves, being a jack-booted thug is all they know.

https://twitter.com/jessiedesigngal/...26019246260224
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Old 29th June 2020, 09:34 AM   #1368
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I mistakenly assumed the photo above was from The Villages in Florida, which is why I referenced Florida law without my usual disclaimer about each state having different laws. Sorry for any confusion.
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Old 29th June 2020, 01:44 PM   #1369
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Originally Posted by SuburbanTurkey View Post
Colorado governor directs officials to reexamine death of Elijah McClain in police custody



https://thehill.com/homenews/state-w...jah-mcclain-in

Elijiah died of a heart attack after he was dosed with ketamine against his will during an arrest. Elijah, who was anemic, was stopped because he was wearing a ski mask to keep his face warm.

His last words were:
Quote:
Quote:
"I can’t breathe. I have my ID right here... My name is Elijah McClain. That’s my house. I was just going home. I’m an introvert. I’m just different. That’s all. I’m so sorry. I have no gun. I don’t do that stuff. I don’t do any fighting. Why are you attacking me? I don’t even kill flies. I don’t eat meat. But I don’t judge people, I don’t judge people who do eat meat. Forgive me. All I was trying to do was become better... I will do it... I will do anything. Sacrifice my identity, I’ll do it. I'll do it. You all are phenomenal. You are beautiful and I love you. Try to forgive me. I’m a mood Gemini. I’m sorry. I’m so sorry. Ow, that really hurt. You are all very strong. Teamwork makes the dream work."
That is definitely something I can imagine somebody would say while overdosing (or simply dosing) on ketamine. If the police are injecting arrestees with ketamine to calm them down, that's gotta stop right away. The drug is too dangerous to use outside of a medical setting by people outside of the medical profession.

But, still, that's an awful lot of words to be coming out of his mouth after he said he couldn't breath. Maybe if he had stopped talking and taken a breath....?
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Old 29th June 2020, 02:50 PM   #1370
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Originally Posted by CaptainHowdy View Post
But, still, that's an awful lot of words to be coming out of his mouth after he said he couldn't breath. Maybe if he had stopped talking and taken a breath....?
You know, I'm getting pretty sick and tired of hearing this.

So I'll tell you a true story.

A couple of years ago I had call to visit the Accident and Emergency department of the city hospital due to shortness of breath.

Now, I have a degree and a PhD in Astrophysics and a postgraduate degree in education. My mother was a language teacher, my father was a doctor, and I paid attention to them when they spoke about their respective areas of expertise. I am intelligent, inquisitive, and have an attention to detail that few can match.

Which is to say that when the doctors asked me what was wrong, it was well within my knowledge and capabilities to answer;

"I am suffering from acute respiratory distress, I feel somewhat weak and a little light-headed, and therefore believe I am suffering from mild hypoxia. I further believe this to be caused by a bacterial infection of the bronchi, although I will, of course, defer to your expert opinion on the cause of this malady."

What I actually said was;

"I can't breathe."

If someone with my vocabulary and knowledge, given plenty of time to think and prepare what they might say, can't come up with anything better, how the hell can you expect anything more from an average person, under extreme physical and emotional stress that was entirely unexpected?
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Old 29th June 2020, 03:09 PM   #1371
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I am sure that if person said "I am having difficulty breathing enough, and I feel I might die" this would be more accurate than "I can't breathe," but I think the sentiment of those taking issue with the statement comes unpleasantly close to suggesting that imprecise speech is a capital crime.
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Old 29th June 2020, 03:13 PM   #1372
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Originally Posted by Dave Rogers View Post
I got on very well with my mother in law until her untimely death from early onset dementia; none of the symptoms emerged until many years after she'd been perfectly happy for me to marry her daughter. Whether "allowed" is the word, I don't know; I doubt whether her parents forbidding the match would have concerned my wife enough to prevent it.

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Old 29th June 2020, 06:35 PM   #1373
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Just because you can speak doesn't necessarily mean that you can breathe in enough oxygen for effective respiration. It takes very little air pressure to vibrate vocal cords, and considerably more to actually keep your blood oxygenated.

So stop repeating the lie that "if you can speak, you can breathe".
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Old 29th June 2020, 08:05 PM   #1374
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Originally Posted by arthwollipot View Post
Just because you can speak doesn't necessarily mean that you can breathe in enough oxygen for effective respiration. It takes very little air pressure to vibrate vocal cords, and considerably more to actually keep your blood oxygenated.

So stop repeating the lie that "if you can speak, you can breathe".
Oh, but it's so simple that even the mind of a child can hold on to it. It's also true, by the way, that if you're still alive you're not dead yet, and that just because something didn't happen that doesn't mean it couldn't happen. All good talking points to keep in mind when befuddled by the complexities of thought.
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Old 30th June 2020, 01:14 AM   #1375
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Originally Posted by EHocking View Post
You must have rolled a high D20 before you said “I do”.
3D6, save against charisma at +1.

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Old 30th June 2020, 05:52 AM   #1376
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Originally Posted by CaptainHowdy View Post
That is definitely something I can imagine somebody would say while overdosing (or simply dosing) on ketamine. If the police are injecting arrestees with ketamine to calm them down, that's gotta stop right away. The drug is too dangerous to use outside of a medical setting by people outside of the medical profession.

But, still, that's an awful lot of words to be coming out of his mouth after he said he couldn't breath. Maybe if he had stopped talking and taken a breath....?
If one had been injected with a hallucinogenic drug, one might not be making much sense. Also, I don't know about you, but I don't actually save my breath like that. And what was he supposed to do? Protesting was possibly his least bad option anyway.

Also these:




Originally Posted by arthwollipot View Post
Just because you can speak doesn't necessarily mean that you can breathe in enough oxygen for effective respiration. It takes very little air pressure to vibrate vocal cords, and considerably more to actually keep your blood oxygenated.

So stop repeating the lie that "if you can speak, you can breathe".
Originally Posted by bruto View Post
Oh, but it's so simple that even the mind of a child can hold on to it. It's also true, by the way, that if you're still alive you're not dead yet, and that just because something didn't happen that doesn't mean it couldn't happen. All good talking points to keep in mind when befuddled by the complexities of thought.
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Old 30th June 2020, 07:10 AM   #1377
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Originally Posted by arthwollipot View Post
Just because you can speak doesn't necessarily mean that you can breathe in enough oxygen for effective respiration. It takes very little air pressure to vibrate vocal cords, and considerably more to actually keep your blood oxygenated.

So stop repeating the lie that "if you can speak, you can breathe".
There's no need to explain, no one actually believes this.

Anyone working in a medical capacity understands that "I can't breathe" is a very serious statement to come from a patient that requires immediate action. Only cops and their defenders seem to ascribe some nefarious motive.
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Old 30th June 2020, 09:00 AM   #1378
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Originally Posted by SuburbanTurkey View Post
There's no need to explain, no one actually believes this.

Anyone working in a medical capacity understands that "I can't breathe" is a very serious statement to come from a patient that requires immediate action. Only cops and their defenders seem to ascribe some nefarious motive.
^This.

The “if they can talk they can breathe” really is just an attempt at a demeaning “joke” about a dying person.
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Old 30th June 2020, 09:31 AM   #1379
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Originally Posted by SuburbanTurkey View Post
There's no need to explain, no one actually believes this.

Anyone working in a medical capacity understands that "I can't breathe" is a very serious statement to come from a patient that requires immediate action. Only cops and their defenders seem to ascribe some nefarious motive.

Fun exercise: count how many times you can say "I can't breathe" without inhaling?

I got to at least 4 without even preparing.

Hint (not for you, of course, but for the clueless): talking involves exhaling. Breathing requires both inhaling and exhaling. They are not the same thing.
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Old 30th June 2020, 09:45 AM   #1380
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CPR training (from years ago, certainly not up to date today) taught that if a victim can cough or speak, they are not choking; meaning, in practical terms, that one should not attempt to perform the Heimlich maneuver on them at that moment.

I wonder if some distorted version of that instruction contributed to the ridiculous idea that being able to say "I can't breathe" indicates complete respiratory sufficiency.
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Old 30th June 2020, 09:54 AM   #1381
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When someone is being forcefully restrained by the police and says "I can't breathe" it usually means one of two things:

- They're having difficulty breathing
- They're faking it and want to be let go

I'd say option number two is much more common, but in George Floyd's case it was almost certainly number one. Not necesarily that he literally couldn't breathe at all, but he ws having some difficulty doing so.
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Old 30th June 2020, 10:33 AM   #1382
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"I can't breathe!" is almost always shorthand for "I'm having difficulty breathing to an alarming degree, and I'm of the opinion that it could endanger my life!"

It's such a weird thing to bring up, like saying "But did you die?" to a corpse.
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Old 30th June 2020, 11:47 AM   #1383
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Originally Posted by sir drinks-a-lot View Post
When someone is being forcefully restrained by the police and says "I can't breathe" it usually means one of two things:

- They're having difficulty breathing
- They're faking it and want to be let go

I'd say option number two is much more common, but in George Floyd's case it was almost certainly number one. Not necesarily that he literally couldn't breathe at all, but he ws having some difficulty doing so.
There have been far* too many cases going back years where people have died after saying they can't breathe.

The highlighted part - what do you base that on? And anyway, surely once someone is handcuffed, they don't need to be sat upon except in very exceptional circumstances. It strikes me as potentially an attempt at extra-judicial corporal punishment rather than minimum necessary force to contain an already arrested individual.







*One would be too many, but there have been several
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Old 30th June 2020, 11:50 AM   #1384
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Originally Posted by jimbob View Post
There have been far* too many cases going back years where people have died after saying they can't breathe.

The highlighted part - what do you base that on?
Commons sense, and experience. And watching COPS.

Quote:
And anyway, surely once someone is handcuffed, they don't need to be sat upon except in very exceptional circumstances. It strikes me as potentially an attempt at extra-judicial corporal punishment rather than minimum necessary force to contain an already arrested individual.
Agreed.
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Old 30th June 2020, 11:53 AM   #1385
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Originally Posted by sir drinks-a-lot View Post
When someone is being forcefully restrained by the police and says "I can't breathe" it usually means one of two things:

- They're having difficulty breathing
- They're faking it and want to be let go

I'd say option number two is much more common, but in George Floyd's case it was almost certainly number one. Not necesarily that he literally couldn't breathe at all, but he ws having some difficulty doing so.
So you seem to be advocating a sort of Russian roulette here. Let us imagine that nine out of ten people making the claim are faking it. That still means that one out of ten will be murdered. That's a pretty drastic kind of Russian roulette. There exist some people, I think, who would consider the extreme consequence of a wrong guess to be excessive even if it's more likely to be right. When a man is pleading for his life may not be the best time to calculate the odds.

Impaired breathing was, according to you "almost certainly" the case for Floyd? But he did more than "almost" die as a result. Whether it turns out that the maneuver caused him to die of something not quite exactly the same as asphyxiation seems like needless nitpicking.

edit to add: and "let go" may not be quite so accurate here either. After all, Floyd was handcuffed, on the ground, face down, surrounded by armed cops. Where was he going to go? He pleaded for Chauvin to get off his neck, not to pat him on the back and send him on his way.
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Old 30th June 2020, 12:24 PM   #1386
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Originally Posted by bruto View Post
So you seem to be advocating a sort of Russian roulette here.
I do?

Quote:
Let us imagine that nine out of ten people making the claim are faking it. That still means that one out of ten will be murdered.
No it doesn't.

Quote:
Impaired breathing was, according to you "almost certainly" the case for Floyd?
Yes.

Quote:
But he did more than "almost" die as a result.
Yes, I noticed that too.

Quote:
Whether it turns out that the maneuver caused him to die of something not quite exactly the same as asphyxiation seems like needless nitpicking.
OK.
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Old 30th June 2020, 12:31 PM   #1387
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Originally Posted by pgwenthold View Post
Fun exercise: count how many times you can say "I can't breathe" without inhaling?

I got to at least 4 without even preparing.

Hint (not for you, of course, but for the clueless): talking involves exhaling. Breathing requires both inhaling and exhaling. They are not the same thing.
Or, deep breath, exhail and then see how many times you can say it. I did six easy.
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Old 30th June 2020, 12:34 PM   #1388
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Holy crap are the racists apologist still on the "Well if he could say 'I can't breathe' that means..." thing?

So what the cop kneeled on his neck and he just died of a total coincidence?
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Old 30th June 2020, 02:04 PM   #1389
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I'm still up to stand my 200+ lb butt on anyone's chest, and they will likely find that they can spit out "I can't breathe" for a while, with the precious little air they have, used to try to save their own lives.

Till there's not enough left and they can't anymore.
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Old 30th June 2020, 02:21 PM   #1390
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Originally Posted by sir drinks-a-lot View Post
I do?
Perhaps that's a bit severe, but I think that's what it amounts to if you cite the percentage of real versus fake in an argument that appears, at any rate, to be justifying the use of a maneuver that is occasionally fatal.
Quote:



No it doesn't.
A broad definition of murder, perhaps, but if a person says he can't breathe, and dies, I count it as murder. But it is true that we tend to hear only of instances where the plea is disregarded, so my percentage was likely (I hope) excessively pessimistic, as one can at least hope that sometimes the statement "I can't breathe" is honored and death allayed. I would still count it as a sort of Russian roulette, though, if the maneuver in question is based on an estimate of odds between a desirable result and a death. This is not a "kill or be killed" decision.
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Old 30th June 2020, 03:09 PM   #1391
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<snip irrelevant derail>
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Old 30th June 2020, 03:28 PM   #1392
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Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
Holy crap are the racists apologist still on the "Well if he could say 'I can't breathe' that means..." thing?
There were several emails to the Skeptics Guide to the Universe podcast a couple of weeks ago. Yes. People are still saying it. Maybe no-one on this particular forum, but it's definitely being said.
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Old 30th June 2020, 04:49 PM   #1393
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Originally Posted by pgwenthold View Post
Fun exercise: count how many times you can say "I can't breathe" without inhaling?

I got to at least 4 without even preparing.

Hint (not for you, of course, but for the clueless): talking involves exhaling. Breathing requires both inhaling and exhaling. They are not the same thing.
I got to 9 without taking a deep breath first and I have respiratory problems.
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Old 30th June 2020, 04:54 PM   #1394
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And now for something completely different, something beautiful:

YouTube Video This video is not hosted by the ISF. The ISF can not be held responsible for the suitability or legality of this material. By clicking the link below you agree to view content from an external website.
I AGREE



Quote:
Kaitlyn Saunders, @the.skate.kid on Instagram, improvises a figure skating performance on Black Lives Matter Plaza. Skating to “Rise Up” by Andra Day, Kaitlyn expresses her hope for the future admist the social unrest. She wants all people to feel “free” - the feeling she gets while skating.
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Privatize the profits and socialize the losses. It's the American way. That's how Mnuchin got rich. Worse, he did it on the backs of elderly people who had been conned into reverse mortgages. Mnuchin paid zero, took on the debt then taxpayers bailed him out.

Space Force.
Because feeding poor people is socialism.
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Old 30th June 2020, 05:38 PM   #1395
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Originally Posted by arthwollipot View Post
There were several emails to the Skeptics Guide to the Universe podcast a couple of weeks ago. Yes. People are still saying it. Maybe no-one on this particular forum, but it's definitely being said.
I've heard people go as far as to say that the whole George Floyd incident was staged by....somebody.
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Old 30th June 2020, 05:41 PM   #1396
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Originally Posted by bruto View Post
Perhaps that's a bit severe, but I think that's what it amounts to if you cite the percentage of real versus fake in an argument that appears, at any rate, to be justifying the use of a maneuver that is occasionally fatal.
I didn't state percentages, and I'm not justifying the use of the maneuver used against George Floyd - at least not that particular use in that particular situation. I still stand by everything I said in my post, which was really not that much and shouldn't be controversial.
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Old 30th June 2020, 05:58 PM   #1397
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Originally Posted by sir drinks-a-lot View Post
I've heard people go as far as to say that the whole George Floyd incident was staged by....somebody.
The same sorts of people who said the same thing about Sandy Hook, I'll bet.
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Old 30th June 2020, 07:29 PM   #1398
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Originally Posted by bruto View Post
Perhaps that's a bit severe, but I think that's what it amounts to if you cite the percentage of real versus fake in an argument that appears, at any rate, to be justifying the use of a maneuver that is occasionally fatal. A broad definition of murder, perhaps, but if a person says he can't breathe, and dies, I count it as murder. But it is true that we tend to hear only of instances where the plea is disregarded, so my percentage was likely (I hope) excessively pessimistic, as one can at least hope that sometimes the statement "I can't breathe" is honored and death allayed. I would still count it as a sort of Russian roulette, though, if the maneuver in question is based on an estimate of odds between a desirable result and a death. This is not a "kill or be killed" decision.
Well, perhaps the set under consideration should be changed.

"Of those who died in police custody shortly after announcing they could not breathe"

How many had some kind of restraint or hold intended to diminish oxygen saturation in the subject being applied to them at the time.

Of course the first jarring speed bump we run into on that street is "can we trust official statistics on that?"
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Old 1st July 2020, 06:42 AM   #1399
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Originally Posted by sir drinks-a-lot View Post
I didn't state percentages, and I'm not justifying the use of the maneuver used against George Floyd - at least not that particular use in that particular situation. I still stand by everything I said in my post, which was really not that much and shouldn't be controversial.
I realize you did not state a percentage, but you stated that there was one (as I'm sure there would be), in an argument about the use of a maneuver, which suggests, whether or not it states it, that it is germane.
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