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Tags Minneapolis incidents , police incidents , police misconduct charges

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Old 9th June 2020, 12:06 PM   #281
portlandatheist
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Originally Posted by alfaniner View Post
Seeing a clip of the funeral, there's a giant painting of Floyd as an angel. Granted, the intention may be figurative, but he was being arrested for trying to pass counterfeit money. Not exactly an angel, in that sense.
I'm not sure if it was intentional or not, but the way I saw that depiction was a big fat "**** You" to the cliché of "He was no Angel"
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Old 9th June 2020, 12:13 PM   #282
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Originally Posted by Distracted1 View Post
Woman Charged in Spitting Incidents at Rittenhouse Di Bruno Bros., Police Say [NBC Philadelphia]

I fixed the link for you. Please see The campaign for good linking. Specifically, please do not post raw URLs with no supporting explanation.
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Old 9th June 2020, 12:17 PM   #283
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Originally Posted by Blue Mountain View Post
Woman Charged in Spitting Incidents at Rittenhouse Di Bruno Bros., Police Say [NBC Philadelphia]

I fixed the link for you. Please see The campaign for good linking. Specifically, please do not post raw URLs with no supporting explanation.
Or what?
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Old 9th June 2020, 12:22 PM   #284
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Originally Posted by Nessie View Post
Keir Starmer tweeted about Parliament holding a one minute silence for George Floyd and what a catalyst for change this is.

https://twitter.com/Keir_Starmer/sta...01447704530946

I looked up the Inquest website about deaths in police custody in the UK and whilst Starmer was head of the CPS, there were approximately 177 deaths in custody. Obviously, none of them were at catalyst for change.

Floyd's death does appear to be a tipping point, where change will happen. I just hope it goes beyond gestures such as taking down status and not showing "Little Britain" on BBC and Netflix.
Yeah, that's what America thought about gun control after Sandy Hook...and the Pulse nightclub......and Las Vegas ...

It will only stop if the people unite and we don't let up. History shows we forget quickly and remain divided. Fox news is currently convincing their viewers that BLM is making white people wash their feet, and wealthy Antifa super ninjas are prowling by the busload.
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Old 9th June 2020, 12:25 PM   #285
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Originally Posted by portlandatheist View Post
I'm not sure if it was intentional or not, but the way I saw that depiction was a big fat "**** You" to the cliché of "He was no Angel"
I saw a sign outside a church once that said, "Do not judge others who sin differently than you."

As this was a Christian service, that sentiment would be appropriate. OK, he wasn't perfect, but in the Christian view, we are all sinners, so no one is perfect. He is as much an angel as anyone.
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Old 9th June 2020, 12:40 PM   #286
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Quote:
The White House is preparing a speech on race relations written by Stephen Miller, who crafted the Trump Administration’s immigration plan along the southern border with Mexico.
http://aurn.com/white-house-seeking-...ace-relations/

Let the healing begin
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Old 9th June 2020, 12:43 PM   #287
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Originally Posted by Ryokan View Post
I'm not sure suspicion of something goes on your criminal record.
An arrest does.
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Old 9th June 2020, 12:48 PM   #288
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Originally Posted by Darat View Post
General info question: How common are vehicle stops by the police in the USA? Surely they are very rare?
You're kidding, right? Stops by police for running red lights and stop signs, speeding, right turn on red and other violations are routine, and in many areas are a major revenue source. In some areas that's how uniformed cops spend most of their time. I've been ticketed twice for failing to wear a seat belt (don't bother to lecture me), no other violations. I'm all for stopping dangerous drivers, but that not always what's happening. When I was younger and rode a motorcycle, I was stopped several times by police who just wanted to see whether I had a motorcycle endorsement on my license, which requires passing a separate exam and which not all motorcyclists take the time to obtain.

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Old 9th June 2020, 12:49 PM   #289
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Originally Posted by Darat View Post
How come they are so common?
Revenue generation - at least in Ferguson. (PDF)

https://www.justice.gov/sites/defaul...ent_report.pdf

Quote:
FERGUSON LAW ENFORCEMENT EFFORTS ARE FOCUSED
ON GENERATING REVENUE
City officials have consistently set maximizing revenue as the priority for Ferguson’s law enforcement activity. Ferguson generates a significant and increasing amount of revenue from the enforcement of code provisions. The City has budgeted for, and achieved, significant increases in revenue from municipal code enforcement over the last several years, and these
increases are projected to continue.

<snip>

The City’s 2014 budget itself stated that since December 2010, “the percent of [FPD] resources allocated to traffic enforcement has increased,” and “[a]s a result, traffic enforcement related collections increased” in the following two years. The 2015 budget added that even after those initial
increases, in fiscal year 2012-2013, FPD was once again “successful in increasing their proportion of resources dedicated to traffic enforcement” and increasing collections.
90,000 citations in 5-years for 2010-2014 with the last year 50% higher than the first and no increase in crime.
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Old 9th June 2020, 12:59 PM   #290
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Originally Posted by thaiboxerken View Post
Or what?
[Monty Python]Or I shall taunt you again![/Monty Python]

I'm trying this as a teaching exercise, not enforcement.
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Old 9th June 2020, 01:10 PM   #291
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Originally Posted by Darat View Post
How come they are so common?
In addition to several answer already provided, it's also because Police in the US aren't a National Service - they're State/County/City. As such, some of their funding comes from tax revenue, but the largest portion of it comes from fines. And the majority of fines are traffic related - running red lights, not coming to a complete stop, broken tail light, you name it. So there end up being a lot of stops on spurious pretexts... because it's a lot easier to find a reason to write someone a ticket if you stop them first
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Old 9th June 2020, 01:13 PM   #292
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Originally Posted by Emily's Cat View Post
In addition to several answer already provided, it's also because Police in the US aren't a National Service - they're State/County/City. As such, some of their funding comes from tax revenue, but the largest portion of it comes from fines. And the majority of fines are traffic related - running red lights, not coming to a complete stop, broken tail light, you name it. So there end up being a lot of stops on spurious pretexts... because it's a lot easier to find a reason to write someone a ticket if you stop them first
And that's one of the key problems - 12,000 odd independent police forces, with a median size of ten officers, and a couple of thousand only having one.

An ideal recipe for a lack of oversight.
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Old 9th June 2020, 01:16 PM   #293
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Originally Posted by jimbob View Post
And that's one of the key problems - 12,000 odd independent police forces, with a median size of ten officers, and a couple of thousand only having one.

An ideal recipe for a lack of oversight.
Sorta. Some of the worst offenders are large, well organized departments. The NYPD is as larger than many national armies and widely regarded as needlessly brutal and racist. There is no shortage of organization and structure there. There is simply not enough political will to rein them in.

There are plenty of little police fiefdoms around this country that are flying below the radar, like you say, but large, highly visible departments are also notorious for wanton abuse.
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Old 9th June 2020, 01:16 PM   #294
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Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
Yes. Why wouldn't it?
Given that you've chosen to respond here, I'll assume that you agree that it's okay to hate groups of people for a choice they've made. You've answered that religion is a choice.

Based on this logic, I assume then that you have no objection to people who ate muslims?
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Old 9th June 2020, 01:18 PM   #295
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Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
Again we've had the "It's bigoted to be bigots of bigots" discussion already. Stop pretending we haven't even if you disagree with it.
Is it your conjecture that all cops are bigots then?
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Old 9th June 2020, 01:18 PM   #296
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Originally Posted by The Don View Post
I'm in the UK and am 53 years old. Over my driving career I estimate I've done somewhere between 600,000 and 700,000 miles. I do speed habitually on motorways but not elsewhere. I have been stopped once (nearly 30 years ago for speeding when I was in a white van going around the North Circular at 1700 on a Friday).

A dozen times seems a lot.
Indeed. I've been driving for 36 years, 7-10k miles per year. I've been stopped exactly once, for a broken rear light. I think they suspected I had been drinking, but the breathalyser showed 'zero'.

ETA: Oh, and the rear light bulb did need replacing.
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Old 9th June 2020, 01:20 PM   #297
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Originally Posted by thaiboxerken View Post
Or what?
Or it reflects badly on the poster, I wager.
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Old 9th June 2020, 01:21 PM   #298
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Originally Posted by Emily's Cat View Post
Is it your conjecture that all cops are bigots then?
Here is an article by a former bastard cop on why all cops are bastards.

https://medium.com/@OfcrACab/confess...p-bb14d17bc759

One of my favorite parts is how he would intentionally find the most obscure thing he could to charge the homeless with to get them in a never ending stream of warrants.
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Old 9th June 2020, 01:32 PM   #299
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Has Floyd been buried yet or is his body still being dragged around the country for Democrat photo ops?
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Old 9th June 2020, 01:37 PM   #300
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Originally Posted by Bogative View Post
Has Floyd been buried yet or is his body still being dragged around the country for Democrat photo ops?
I'll be sure to do some research on this for you as I know you're being totally sincere in your concern for the treatment of the body of a black man murdered by a police officer.
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Old 9th June 2020, 01:45 PM   #301
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Originally Posted by The Great Zaganza View Post
Defunding isn't abolishing.

If you have a clearly failed project that year after year costs more, does less and hires murdering people, instead of reforming it you might be much better off just closing it and start from scratch.
It's bad messaging when we have to explain what it means.

Seriously, whoever started pushing this message doesn't understand messaging. I hope a better message takes hold soon.
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Old 9th June 2020, 01:47 PM   #302
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Originally Posted by Bogative View Post
Has Floyd been buried yet or is his body still being dragged around the country for Democrat photo ops?
I imagine it's quite irritating to be reminded police murder people.
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Privatize the profits and socialize the losses. It's the American way. That's how Mnuchin got rich. Worse, he did it on the backs of elderly people who had been conned into reverse mortgages. Mnuchin paid zero, took on the debt then taxpayers bailed him out.

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Because feeding poor people is socialism.
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Old 9th June 2020, 01:48 PM   #303
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Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger View Post
It's bad messaging when we have to explain what it means.

Seriously, whoever started pushing this message doesn't understand messaging. I hope a better message takes hold soon.
As opposed to what? 8cantwait?

This criticism strikes me as absurd. Defund is immensely simpler and easier to understand than any technocratic reform being advanced by the Democrats opposed to the defund approach.
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Old 9th June 2020, 01:52 PM   #304
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Originally Posted by erlando View Post
I've had my license for 30 years. I've been stopped exactly 0 times by the police.
I would expect that almost every driver in Australia is pulled over every year. We have random breath tests which everyone accepts as the price of safer roads.
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Old 9th June 2020, 01:53 PM   #305
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Originally Posted by alfaniner View Post
Seeing a clip of the funeral, there's a giant painting of Floyd as an angel. Granted, the intention may be figurative, but he was being arrested for trying to pass counterfeit money. Not exactly an angel, in that sense.
Just out of interest, has it been established that the offending $20 was (a) actually a fake and (b) actually passed by Floyd?

Dave
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Old 9th June 2020, 02:01 PM   #306
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Originally Posted by zooterkin View Post
Indeed. I've been driving for 36 years, 7-10k miles per year. I've been stopped exactly once, for a broken rear light. I think they suspected I had been drinking, but the breathalyser showed 'zero'.

ETA: Oh, and the rear light bulb did need replacing.
In the last 40 years I've been pulled over twice for speeding. Once was my fault and I said so. The second time I swore he picked the wrong car out, my car didn't go that fast up a hill. He was using radar on headlights in the dark in the rain. I managed to create enough doubt he gave up.

And once I took off with my headlights off. When they said why they stopped me, I thanked them. Then I realized the cop wasn't just politely stopping me. He turned out to be an ass, looking for a drunk driver. I'm guessing had I been black it would have been 10 times worse.

However, I do have two other stories of cops making stupid false assumptions that has colored my view of police, even though I work with them. I am so empathetic with blacks being treated by police who start not with an open mind collecting the facts, but rather, starting with really awful false assumptions. They have a habit of seeing everything through a very dark lens. People are viewed as criminals from the start.
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Privatize the profits and socialize the losses. It's the American way. That's how Mnuchin got rich. Worse, he did it on the backs of elderly people who had been conned into reverse mortgages. Mnuchin paid zero, took on the debt then taxpayers bailed him out.

Space Force.
Because feeding poor people is socialism.
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Old 9th June 2020, 02:05 PM   #307
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This seeing of civilians as threats to face, to form ranks with brothers whether they're good people or not, it's not something that's going to save anyone who's not of the group they're targeting. If all black people turned white overnight, the entrenched attitudes of police, the militarization, the tendency to use violence first, that's not going to change. This isn't a black problem, this isn't about black lives mattering or not, black people are the canary in the mine showing that there is a danger to everyone.
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Old 9th June 2020, 02:08 PM   #308
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Originally Posted by pgwenthold View Post
I saw a sign outside a church once that said, "Do not judge others who sin differently than you."

As this was a Christian service, that sentiment would be appropriate. OK, he wasn't perfect, but in the Christian view, we are all sinners, so no one is perfect. He is as much an angel as anyone.
That's fantastic! Too bad it's a rare sentiment among people who call themselves Christians.
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Privatize the profits and socialize the losses. It's the American way. That's how Mnuchin got rich. Worse, he did it on the backs of elderly people who had been conned into reverse mortgages. Mnuchin paid zero, took on the debt then taxpayers bailed him out.

Space Force.
Because feeding poor people is socialism.
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Old 9th June 2020, 02:10 PM   #309
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Originally Posted by Emily's Cat View Post
Given that you've chosen to respond here, I'll assume that you agree that it's okay to hate groups of people for a choice they've made. You've answered that religion is a choice.

Based on this logic, I assume then that you have no objection to people who ate muslims?
I think cannibalism was going a bit too far.
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Old 9th June 2020, 02:11 PM   #310
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Originally Posted by Thermal View Post
Yeah, that's what America thought about gun control after Sandy Hook...and the Pulse nightclub......and Las Vegas ...

It will only stop if the people unite and we don't let up. History shows we forget quickly and remain divided. Fox news is currently convincing their viewers that BLM is making white people wash their feet, and wealthy Antifa super ninjas are prowling by the busload.
There seems to be a perfect storm this time. Lots of people off work, tension already high, lots of incidents that have primed the pump and the video was up close and personal.
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Privatize the profits and socialize the losses. It's the American way. That's how Mnuchin got rich. Worse, he did it on the backs of elderly people who had been conned into reverse mortgages. Mnuchin paid zero, took on the debt then taxpayers bailed him out.

Space Force.
Because feeding poor people is socialism.
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Old 9th June 2020, 02:12 PM   #311
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Originally Posted by thaiboxerken View Post
Or what?
Or the peer pressure will rise until you give in.

Seriously, what's the problem?
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Privatize the profits and socialize the losses. It's the American way. That's how Mnuchin got rich. Worse, he did it on the backs of elderly people who had been conned into reverse mortgages. Mnuchin paid zero, took on the debt then taxpayers bailed him out.

Space Force.
Because feeding poor people is socialism.
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Old 9th June 2020, 02:15 PM   #312
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Originally Posted by Matthew Best View Post
I think cannibalism was going a bit too far.
To be fair, Muslims are much lower in "bad" cholesterol than your average Episcopalian.
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Old 9th June 2020, 02:20 PM   #313
Babbylonian
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Originally Posted by Silly Green Monkey View Post
This seeing of civilians as threats to face, to form ranks with brothers whether they're good people or not, it's not something that's going to save anyone who's not of the group they're targeting. If all black people turned white overnight, the entrenched attitudes of police, the militarization, the tendency to use violence first, that's not going to change. This isn't a black problem, this isn't about black lives mattering or not, black people are the canary in the mine showing that there is a danger to everyone.
You're incorrect. Outside of the context of the current unrest, the problem is a combination of discrimination and indiscriminate actions. By this I mean that, currently, literally any black/non-white person is a likelier target of police violence than any white person. In other words, the richest black CEO is more likely to be pulled over and hassled than the poorest white meth dealer.

If we go along with your magical hypothesis, police officers would have to find other ways besides skin color to find their targets. The most likely result would be development of the ability to actually evaluate behaviors and determine if they're indicative of criminal activity. Or, better yet, assume people are not criminals - and treat them as such - until proven otherwise.

Would people still find ways to single out groups? Of course. To most people in the US, for example, Jewish people are considered "white" and as such are not automatically discriminated against. However, there would still be some who would look for "jewish features" and be prejudiced towards them. It would be, however, a far more difficult process than racists currently have to go through when they look at a face and compare it to their mental color swatches to determine if that person is good or bad.

Last edited by Babbylonian; 9th June 2020 at 02:21 PM.
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Old 9th June 2020, 02:28 PM   #314
thaiboxerken
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Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger View Post
Or the peer pressure will rise until you give in.

Seriously, what's the problem?
That's what I'm wondering. What is the problem with people linking in ways that one poster doesn't like?
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Old 9th June 2020, 02:36 PM   #315
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Originally Posted by Bogative View Post
Has Floyd been buried yet or is his body still being dragged around the country for Democrat photo ops?
Yeah, those racists and brutal cops are annoying but the Democrats are using this crisis for their political agenda and that's the real issue here.
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Old 9th June 2020, 03:16 PM   #316
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Originally Posted by The Don View Post
I'm in the UK and am 53 years old. Over my driving career I estimate I've done somewhere between 600,000 and 700,000 miles. I do speed habitually on motorways but not elsewhere. I have been stopped once (nearly 30 years ago for speeding when I was in a white van going around the North Circular at 1700 on a Friday).

A dozen times seems a lot.
Also in UK. Also in my 50s. Also only ever stopped once (in something approaching half a million miles) for driving in a bus lane.

A dozen stops does seem like a lot.
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Old 9th June 2020, 03:44 PM   #317
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Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger View Post
No one is suggesting we don't need police doing police work. What we want (not that I speak for everyone) for one is for the police to stop hunting down blacks "who look suspicious".
You mean in this thread or in the disband movement?
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Old 9th June 2020, 03:46 PM   #318
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Originally Posted by Emily's Cat View Post
*Shrug* I kind of feel like we've reached an impasse. Your last comment there..
Quote:
Yeah, I'm calling this as an exceptional case of BS both sidesism. "But they would do it too!" is always an equally (in)valid response that is made to deflect from actual problems. Like I said, this is yet another example of your willful ignorance.
... leads me to believe that there's not a lot of point to continued discussion on the topic of human behavior, cognitive biases, and tribal instinct.

If you're interested in continuing, I recommend reading this article as a started, and consider checking out some of the other articles and podcasts on that site.

The Illusion of Asymmetric Insight

I agree that it seems pointless to continue, as I do not get the impression you are even listening to what I say.

Of course I am aware that tribalism exists. Of course I am aware that everyone has their biases and prejudices. That's all your argument consists of, I have already acknowledged it previously, yet you still keep coming back to it as if presenting it should simply resolve the discussion.

To the contrary, it does not. History gives us examples of one "tribe" running off the rails in extreme ways--Nazi Germany comes to mind. Please note that I am not even attempting to compare the GOP with Nazi Germany--I am merely providing an example of an occurrence which you seem to be denying even happens.

Earlier you said "Propaganda is propaganda". Complete balderdash, as I said previously. Allow me to give you two contrasting examples. (Please note that I am not claiming that these examples are representative of American or German WWII propaganda. I present them merely to prove that "propaganda is propaganda" is meaningless tripe):

1) One example of American propaganda was to refer to Hitler as Adolf Schicklgruber.

2) German propaganda rag Der Stürmer published that, "Jews need the blood of a Christian child, maybe, to mix in with their Matzah."



One is quite obviously not like the other.

If you would like to drop the discussion, that's fine, but I would appreciate an answer to a question I asked previously and never got a response to:

What warning signs of a tribe (such as Nazi Germany) running off the rails into nutjobism would you consider as credible? I feel compelled to ask again because, in my experience, you casually dismiss any and all alarms as just more "tribalism". History shows this is not always the case.


ETA: And just in case it's not absolutely clear: I haven't even been trying to argue that the GOP is going off the rails with my last few posts. I am merely trying to argue that "going off the rails into nutjobism" does, in fact, happen from time to time--A position that, in my impression, you are denying, given that you dismiss any evidence as merely more tribalism. As in: Oh, you shouldn't be talking about Nazis that way. Your bias against them is showing.

Last edited by Cabbage; 9th June 2020 at 03:54 PM.
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Old 9th June 2020, 03:48 PM   #319
Cabbage
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Originally Posted by Emily's Cat View Post
Are you aware that this oft-referenced concept is a minor footnote in a very large work that actually advocates tolerance as a general principle?

Are you aware that I brought it up in a context that makes that "minor footnote" absolutely relevant to the discussion?
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Old 9th June 2020, 03:50 PM   #320
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Originally Posted by Belz... View Post
Yeah, those racists and brutal cops are annoying but the Democrats are using this crisis for their political agenda and that's the real issue here.
No, my issue is the coverage of his funeral is interrupting the coverage of Democrat constituents burning down Democrat cities. That is quality entertainment I am being deprived of. I can't complain too much, though. It's given me the opportunity to listen to Democrat aldermen from Chicago airing their grievances to the Democrat mayor of Chicago because of what their Democrat constituents are doing to their Democrat ran city. It's almost as entertaining, but not quite.
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