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Old 17th October 2020, 08:37 AM   #1561
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Originally Posted by metacristi View Post
Except that Martin Luther King did not work at all within the (disastrous) system based on identity politics of today but along the lines defined by the old type of progressivism, based on the Enlightenment values (centered around social rights for all, race does not matter, 'color blindness' at this level). Quite a big difference. A cursory check on the Web could easily reveal that the central 'color blindness' aspect of the old liberal progressivism (characteristic also to MFK) is now branded institutional 'racism' by the 'progressive' zealots of today, the current brand of 'progressivism' went totally astray I'm afraid.

What we witness now has strong resemblance with what happened after communists seized power, there are indeed remarkable similarities with the Stalinist purges and Maoist cultural revolution among others (the forces branded as 'reactionary' must be ruthlessly eliminated, even old progressivists are now 'racists' who have to be wiped out). BLM is not unlike the likes of Central Cultural Revolution Group tolerated by Mao to further his cultural; revolution....By the way it is not grammar which prevented some to understand what I said, it is indeed plain ignorance.
Or maybe its just that a few statues got vandalized and in the grand scheme of things, none of this is actually a big deal.
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Old 17th October 2020, 03:31 PM   #1562
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Originally Posted by metacristi View Post
Except that Martin Luther King did not work at all within the (disastrous) system based on identity politics of today but along the lines defined by the old type of progressivism, based on the Enlightenment values (centered around social rights for all, race does not matter, 'color blindness' at this level). Quite a big difference. A cursory check on the Web could easily reveal that the central 'color blindness' aspect of the old liberal progressivism (characteristic also to MFK) is now branded institutional 'racism' by the 'progressive' zealots of today, the current brand of 'progressivism' went totally astray I'm afraid.
Whoo boy, you *really* don't know much about MLK, or the basics of "identity politics" at any point in US history. MLK Jr. was extremely clear that it was, in fact, white people who benefited from "identity politics" via white supremacism, that the states and federal government owed black people a lot, that "pull yourself up by the bootstraps" was fantasy, that massive police reform was necessary, and so on and so on.

And of course, many of the statues that we're discussing in this thread were put up specifically to symbolize opposition to the movement that he, and many others, led, and which you purport to carry forward. Odd how that works. And of course, groups like BLM seem far more interested in police reform than in statues, but if people decide that Confederate statues and other white supremacist iconography shouldn't be standing and glaring at people as they enter government offices, that's nice, too.

But perhaps you can point us to examples of Black Lives Matter stating that they want unequal rights, for example, were they to rally in favor of the murder of Justine Dammond that would be a good example. Of course, they actually loudly protested her shooting at the hands of an Ethiopian refugee who became a cop, but that's not really a problem for my argument, now is it?

Quote:
What we witness now has strong resemblance with what happened after communists seized power, there are indeed remarkable similarities with the Stalinist purges and Maoist cultural revolution among others (the forces branded as 'reactionary' must be ruthlessly eliminated, even old progressivists are now 'racists' who have to be wiped out). BLM is not unlike the likes of Central Cultural Revolution Group tolerated by Mao to further his cultural; revolution....By the way it is not grammar which prevented some to understand what I said, it is indeed plain ignorance.
Well, if you ignore the distinct lack of, you know, purges, deaths, and the like, I guess you could attempt to say this. Personally, I'd have thought that it was the use of state violence as a force of oppression and compulsion that was the more significant factor, but that's just me.

...well, that and the use of *actual* violent extralegal groups, such as Patriot Prayer or the Proud Boys. So...closer to the modern GOP. Huh.

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Old 18th October 2020, 05:08 AM   #1563
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Probably the best way to call the current brand of progressivism is postmodernist progressivism due to its severe lack of commitment to truth and free speech but the cultural Marxist element is still definitely there, especially in the Bolshevik way of treating the opponents and the proliferation of all sort of mob movements reminding of Mao's Red Guards. What surprises me is that many of these people who call themselves 'progressives' today are not aware of the far left nature of the central themes of the cause and the fact that not moderates are in the firm control of the future of this movement (they are definitely very far from MLK, his civil rights movement never departed from the universalism of the old progressivism, race does not matter, unlike today).

Unfortunately those incapable to 'see' beyond the 'system' of values and accepted 'progressive' truths of today are not much ahead of the rich slave trader of the past incapable to think beyond the slavery system. How on Earth can anyone rational support the violent and irrational campaigns of cancel-culture (limited to European culture only), de-platforming rational people or 'decolonizing' the Academia it's beyond me. Progressivism itself is the biggest part of the problem these days, the allegedly rampant ''white nationalism' is definitely the lesser one. A return to the old liberal type of progressivism is a must I'd say.
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Old 18th October 2020, 06:49 AM   #1564
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Originally Posted by Darat View Post
How is removing a statue re-writing history?
Well, they got rid of all those Lenin and Stalin statues and when. do you hear anything about them in the news these days?
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Old 18th October 2020, 06:59 AM   #1565
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Originally Posted by metacristi View Post
Probably the best way to call the current brand of progressivism is postmodernist progressivism due to its severe lack of commitment to truth and free speech but the cultural Marxist element is still definitely there, especially in the Bolshevik way of treating the opponents and the proliferation of all sort of mob movements reminding of Mao's Red Guards. What surprises me is that many of these people who call themselves 'progressives' today are not aware of the far left nature of the central themes of the cause and the fact that not moderates are in the firm control of the future of this movement (they are definitely very far from MLK, his civil rights movement never departed from the universalism of the old progressivism, race does not matter, unlike today).

Unfortunately those incapable to 'see' beyond the 'system' of values and accepted 'progressive' truths of today are not much ahead of the rich slave trader of the past incapable to think beyond the slavery system. How on Earth can anyone rational support the violent and irrational campaigns of cancel-culture (limited to European culture only), de-platforming rational people or 'decolonizing' the Academia it's beyond me. Progressivism itself is the biggest part of the problem these days, the allegedly rampant ''white nationalism' is definitely the lesser one. A return to the old liberal type of progressivism is a must I'd say.

and if you take cranberries and stew them like applesauce they taste much more like prunes than rhubarb does.
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Old 18th October 2020, 07:05 AM   #1566
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Originally Posted by Captain_Swoop View Post
Well, they got rid of all those Lenin and Stalin statues and when. do you hear anything about them in the news these days?
I think it kind of works the same way as Back to the Future when Marty McFly saw himself gradually fading from that photograph.
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Old 18th October 2020, 07:26 AM   #1567
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One could argue that celebrating the jackasses who fought for slavery is rewriting history. The history is that they were traitors to their country and to the human race, and they lost.
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Old 18th October 2020, 07:56 AM   #1568
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Originally Posted by Captain_Swoop View Post
and if you take cranberries and stew them like applesauce they taste much more like prunes than rhubarb does.

Is this a sign of intelligence? I don't think so. Try something else.
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Old 18th October 2020, 08:09 AM   #1569
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Originally Posted by metacristi View Post
Is this a sign of intelligence? I don't think so. Try something else.
The point is that your political screed was a non sequitur.
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Old 18th October 2020, 08:13 AM   #1570
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How's the population of statues of Abraham Lincoln and U.S. Grant doing overall? I sure hope we won't be facing a shortage of them this winter.
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Old 18th October 2020, 10:23 AM   #1571
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Originally Posted by eerok View Post
The point is that your political screed was a non sequitur.

The point is that he does not know what he talks about.
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Old 18th October 2020, 10:24 AM   #1572
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Originally Posted by Mumbles View Post
Whoo boy, you *really* don't know much about MLK, or the basics of "identity politics" at any point in US history. MLK Jr. was extremely clear that it was, in fact, white people who benefited from "identity politics" via white supremacism, that the states and federal government owed black people a lot, that "pull yourself up by the bootstraps" was fantasy, that massive police reform was necessary, and so on and so on.

Well, if you ignore the distinct lack of, you know, purges, deaths, and the like, I guess you could attempt to say this. Personally, I'd have thought that it was the use of state violence as a force of oppression and compulsion that was the more significant factor, but that's just me.

...well, that and the use of *actual* violent extralegal groups, such as Patriot Prayer or the Proud Boys. So...closer to the modern GOP. Huh.

The reality is that MLK simply meant (at least at the level of his visible actions) the extension of civil rights for the Blacks to the level of the Whites in America, it meant making all citizens, regardless of color, equal before the law ('color blindness', it is the individual who counts not groups based on color and so on). And he was very successful in that, in spite of the vehement rejection of his peaceful methods by other leaders of Black communities like Malcolm X and so on who thought mainly via the racial account of today. The story you tell is not different from that of some postmodernist progressivists who try to claim that he was saying basically the same as the dogma of today, unfortunately for you it was not so.

He definitely went along the lines defined by the old liberal type of progressivism, that the color became irrelevant before the Law, in social and economic life. Finally equality of opportunity was achieved without identity politics, that's the reality, this in spite of some remaining gaps. It was the ideological postmodernist progressivism who pushed massively the race agenda after mainly 1990 via claiming that those gaps can be closed only by their new dogmas (still an off-shoot of communism although they abandoned many of the discredited theories), indeed against what MLK and his civil rights movement advocated ('color neutral society in the sense that color does not affect individual outcomes).

No one denies that some gaps still remain, the problem is that identity politics, falsification of history, cancel culture, de-platforming, erosion of free speech and the never-ending proliferation of newly 'identified' 'institutional racisms' at the core of postmodernist progressivism of today can never be a real solution. I did not want to add this given your infatuated comments but some people here apparently believe that i did not answer your claims. Not the case if there is a non sequitur it is on your and their part.
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Old 18th October 2020, 01:10 PM   #1573
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What I tried to convey is simple, MLK acted via the 'color blindness' basic tenet of the old liberal form of progressivism whilst the progressives of today act via identity-group-politics for minorities and other oddities based on what they label 'justice' (often having little ion common with Reason unfortunately). He rejected white identity politics in America of course but this is irrelevant to the point I made (old progressivists liberal or conservative also rejected white identity politics). Despite the popular view you seem to defend there is a marked difference between the old liberal form of progressivism which has roots in Enlightenment (adopted in part even by the 1968 rioters, despite the communist themes taken on board) and the disastrous postmodernist progressivism of today.
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Old 18th October 2020, 09:12 PM   #1574
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Originally Posted by metacristi View Post
The reality is that MLK simply meant (at least at the level of his visible actions) the extension of civil rights for the Blacks to the level of the Whites in America, it meant making all citizens, regardless of color, equal before the law ('color blindness', it is the individual who counts not groups based on color and so on). And he was very successful in that, in spite of the vehement rejection of his peaceful methods by other leaders of Black communities like Malcolm X and so on who thought mainly via the racial account of today. The story you tell is not different from that of some postmodernist progressivists who try to claim that he was saying basically the same as the dogma of today, unfortunately for you it was not so.
MLK Jr. was always very clear that he would see your version of "peace" as not at all honest - a "peace" resting on oppression, as opposed to one premised on justice, which he considered actual, honest peace. And in particular, he demanded full citizenship for black Americans, from employment discrimination, police violence, and the like - again, exactly the same as what BLM advocates, and through the same means. He also saw government programs explicitly set up to aid nonwhite groups are entirely fair, given the history of the US.

But I've said this already. In this post, my main point is that you also got Malcolm X wrong - he was hardly aggressively violent at all, but asserted that black people had a right to self defense against violent groups - first the US itself, and later in his life the Nation of Islam. This was also true of groups like the Black Panther Party, which would welcome groups like, say, Redneck Revolt, and actually did view the White Panthers as fellows. I'll note that, while it is of course a right, groups like BLM outright refuse to exercise the right to self defense, to the point of insisting on MLK-esque nonviolence even in such matters.

Quote:
No one denies that some gaps still remain, the problem is that identity politics, falsification of history, cancel culture, de-platforming, erosion of free speech and the never-ending proliferation of newly 'identified' 'institutional racisms' at the core of postmodernist progressivism of today can never be a real solution. I did not want to add this given your infatuated comments but some people here apparently believe that i did not answer your claims. Not the case if there is a non sequitur it is on your and their part.
Well, "cancel culture" isn't a real thing at all, deplatforming can actually work very well (as seen by the vanishing of Richard Spencer, Alex Jones, and that Milo guy - surprisingly, an easy fix for people that use platforms to inspire hate-filled violence is to remove access toi the platforms they use), and both MLK Jr. and Malcolm X spoke and rallied against "institutional racism", though there is an obvious split between MLK Jr's radical nonviolence and integration on one hand, and (early) Malcolm X's embrace of self-defense and black separatism on the other.

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Old 20th October 2020, 01:18 PM   #1575
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This does not change what I already said, I stop here, I leave an old leftist to explain to you that the civil right movements of the left prior to 1990 worked primarily via the universalism of the old progressivism whilst the ''progressives' of today are indeed lost in identity politics and worse (although he is wrong in his prediction that the Left would be marginalized, in reality the contrary happened given that the radicals he talks about already gained the upper hand in the education system, the new generations were already indoctrinated with their views, today is much worse I'm afraid):

https://harpers.org/archive/1993/09/...s-of-identity/


As for the cancel culture, well anyone rational can easily see that it is rampant, when even serious liberal intellectuals like Steven Pinker is a target there is not much to add (and as I said even to think in terms of universalism is 'racism' these days). I'm afraid that merely continuing ad infinitum with the same never ending 'discovery' of new 'hidden institutional racisms' cannot be a solution, at least on medium and long term, adding in the equation the important problems introduced by the minorities themselves*, intrinsic to police (without jumping to 'racism' claims) and so on is a must if we want a better world. Not ultimately a return to the old type of progressivism would be a great idea.


* as a side note there is no surprise for example that Islam itself is never a problem for these 'progressives', the fault is always on the part of the West, Europeans, whites. Great solution indeed.
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Old 21st October 2020, 02:53 PM   #1576
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By the way Martin Luther King's Poor People's Campaign was a nonviolent multiracial effort to reduce poverty among the poor (fully in line with universalism by the way). What is now the counterpart envisioned by the postmodernist 'progressivist' elite'? Well more racial divisions and...recovering black radicalism? All this to reach a Bolshevik type form of internationalist 'justice'? This is the future of progressivism? So more Nation of Islam, other black radicals, and never ending racial revolution with all costs (BLM is also in this lot i'm afraid)? I am from a former communist country, not surprisingly I don't think that capitalism is the nec plus ultra of all possible social systems but let me be totally bewildered.

This kind of 'justice' can be put above Reason, democracy, universal rights , free speech and Truth? Let me doubt that we go in the right direction , I can only fully agree here with Schlesinger when he wrote that it was the belief in universalism and not ethnic segregationism which helped create “great movements to end slavery, to raise the status of women, to abolish torture etc' and that 'very often ethnocentric separatists see little in the Western heritage other than Western crimes....Their mood is one of divesting Americans of their sinful European inheritance and.seeking redemptive infusions from non-Western cultures'.

After all MLK civil rights movement could have not succeeded without the widespread help from the white community, conservatives included, under the banner of universalism. The gaps between the blacks and whites are still a reality (in no case however at the dimension claimed by some, let's be honest important progress happened in the last 50 years), unfortunately revolution and segregation of the kind envisioned by the radical postmodernist 'progressives' (in firm command of the movement) cannot really solve the problem.

The people of Eastern Europe are always wary when hearing about such grandiose visions of the future but when one recognizes the existence of quite a lot of common ground with Leninism, authoritarianism more generally, neutrality can be no more the best approach This new collective aberration is more likely to collapse under the weight of its over the top dogmas, like the Marxist-Leninist 'heavens', I only hope that the future is not one in which the idea of progressivism itself is dead, with all sort of racist identity politics (of the minorities or white) in its place.
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Old 21st October 2020, 07:51 PM   #1577
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Originally Posted by metacristi View Post
By the way Martin Luther King's Poor People's Campaign was a nonviolent multiracial effort to reduce poverty among the poor (fully in line with universalism by the way).
And likewise, BLM has supported DAPL protestors, white people brutalized by police, and is currently discussing the Special Anti Robbery Squad, and their highly questionable recent replacements, in Nigeria (there are obvious difficulties when a US-centered group is attempting to intervene on behalf of protestors confronting a nakedly violent government goon squad in another continent, of course).

(As a hint, there's no contradiction in aiding *all* poor people, and recognizing the particular circumstances of black Americans that drastically increases the odds that they will be impoverished compared to white Americans - and that racial discrimination in policing and courts is a deliberate part of this. In fact, addressing racism is a necessary part of addressing poverty.)

Quote:
What is now the counterpart envisioned by the postmodernist 'progressivist' elite'? Well more racial divisions and...recovering black radicalism? All this to reach a Bolshevik type form of internationalist 'justice'? This is the future of progressivism? So more Nation of Islam, other black radicals, and never ending racial revolution with all costs (BLM is also in this lot i'm afraid)?
Putting the NOI in the same league with BLM is similar to putting the KKK in the same lot as Redneck Revolt - it reflects a complete misunderstanding of at least one of the two groups. Their political opinions are not even vaguely similar - BLM is if anything strongly aligned with universal rights that you claim to applaud, while the NOI, like other US social conservative groups, are strongly in favor of social and legal heirarchies - specifically, they're a black separatist religious group that denounces judaism, frequently decries GLBT movements as a white conspiracy, and consider women's place to be in the home.

ETA: Will there be some degree of crossover? Well, yes, of course, as is the case with almost all political groups. But given the relatively weak status of the modern NOI (you'll find that many black people think that Farrakhan died years ago), they're much less of a threat, even to jews, than the more typical antisemitism that tends to run through western non-jews.

Quote:
This kind of 'justice' can be put above Reason, democracy, universal rights , free speech and Truth? Let me doubt that we go in the right direction , I can only fully agree here with Schlesinger when he wrote that it was the belief in universalism and not ethnic segregationism which helped create “great movements to end slavery, to raise the status of women, to abolish torture etc' and that 'very often ethnocentric separatists see little in the Western heritage other than Western crimes....Their mood is one of divesting Americans of their sinful European inheritance and.seeking redemptive infusions from non-Western cultures'.

After all MLK civil rights movement could have not succeeded without the widespread help from the white community, conservatives included, under the banner of universalism. The gaps between the blacks and whites are still a reality (in no case however at the dimension claimed by some, let's be honest important progress happened in the last 50 years), unfortunately revolution and segregation of the kind envisioned by the radical postmodernist 'progressives' (in firm command of the movement) cannot really solve the problem.
That "widespread" help was, in reality, somewhat...thin. Much like we see today, white people by and large were not happy when their Nazi Germany movie on NBC was interrupted by footage of southern goons blasting beating the snot out of black people, but when it came to poverty, tax aid to replace wealth deliberately drained from black (and Native) American communities...well, that was going too far. Thus we end at people howling about how nonwhite people are lazy and refuse to find jobs but are also taking all the good jobs, or the tale of Trayvon Martin the thug attacking a sad weak white guy by running away from him repeatedly. Both the lazy childish black guy, and the "black brute" are stereotypes dating back well over a century in the US, and created as excuses for white supremacism.

I'm sorry, but black people having a scholarship or a dorm floor is simply not at all the same as, say, Jim Crow, or the reservation system.

Quote:
The people of Eastern Europe are always wary when hearing about such grandiose visions of the future but when one recognizes the existence of quite a lot of common ground with Leninism, authoritarianism more generally, neutrality can be no more the best approach This new collective aberration is more likely to collapse under the weight of its over the top dogmas, like the Marxist-Leninist 'heavens', I only hope that the future is not one in which the idea of progressivism itself is dead, with all sort of racist identity politics (of the minorities or white) in its place.
I can only repeat what I've said before - your writings are so badly confused on the most basic facts that I can only shrug at whatever conclusions you derive from such nonsense.

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Old 21st October 2020, 10:09 PM   #1578
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Originally Posted by Brainster View Post
That's fine, but there is a process by which the offending statues can be removed, and having a mob tear them down and spray paint them is not the process I'm thinking about; that's vandalism.
No; that argument is faulty for two reasons.

1. In many cases there is in fact very positively NO legal "process by which the offending statues can be removed", or a straw process technically exists but citizens are actively obstructed from making use of it, leaving the citizenry no choice but to resort to extralegal means

2. In cases where such a process does exist, and where it has been used, it has been made clear that this is NOT "fine" as you concede but rather the action is often strongly criticized using the exact same bad arguments (erasing history, etc); I've seen the term "legal vandalism" used in some places.
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Old 21st October 2020, 10:33 PM   #1579
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Originally Posted by Checkmite View Post
No; that argument is faulty for two reasons.

1. In many cases there is in fact very positively NO legal "process by which the offending statues can be removed", or a straw process technically exists but citizens are actively obstructed from making use of it, leaving the citizenry no choice but to resort to extralegal means

2. In cases where such a process does exist, and where it has been used, it has been made clear that this is NOT "fine" as you concede but rather the action is often strongly criticized using the exact same bad arguments (erasing history, etc); I've seen the term "legal vandalism" used in some places.
For some definition of "faulty", i.e.

faulty: (adj) not producing the result that I want.

For 1, there is always a process for removing it, although I think it is fair to talk about a "straw process". The process often involves the citizens of a larger entity (the state) having a veto power over the citizens of the local area (e.g. the City of Richmond). In order for the citizens of the municipality to remove the statue, they would have to convince the citizenry of the entire state that the statue ought to be removed.

It isn't really a "straw process". it is well defined and easy to understand, but it does mean that the majority of the citizens who have to look at the statue may not have control over their own city's appearance.

And of course in practice this only applies to confederate statues in the southern US, which people keep bringing up, but of the toppled statues this year, a minority were not that sort of statue. There isn't a statue of Columbus anywhere in the world that is protected by a "straw process" that you are hinting at.

As for 2. Oh my God! People disagree! That's unfair! or something. I mean, seriously, what the heck is the point? You go to the city council and get a vote to remove a statue, and the people who lost the vote complain and......who gives a rat's ass? So, fill in the blanks for me.

What I mean is that if there were a statue of Columbus in my city, and the council voted to remove it, I would complain to high heaven about the idiocy of the majority of residents in my town, but when all was said and done, I would complain even more loudly if, after a vote of the city council, they didn't remove the statue. I'm a big fan of democracy, even when my team loses. So yes, it really is fine if they follow the process. That doesn't mean I agree with them, but by gum I will demand that if the process of law is followed, and the law says that the statue must go, then I'll be the one demanding its removal, even if I like the guy with the statue.
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Old 21st October 2020, 11:10 PM   #1580
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Originally Posted by Meadmaker View Post
For 1, there is always a process for removing it, although I think it is fair to talk about a "straw process". The process often involves the citizens of a larger entity (the state) having a veto power over the citizens of the local area (e.g. the City of Richmond). In order for the citizens of the municipality to remove the statue, they would have to convince the citizenry of the entire state that the statue ought to be removed.
Wrong; if you're referring to for instance the State of Virginia's policy, it did not require "the citizenry of the entire state" to be convinced - indeed, one could effectively convince the citizenry of the entire state that the statue ought to be removed and it would lead nowhere. The law (which has since been repealed) required the approval of select group of legislators to remove a monument, not a public vote.

Originally Posted by Meadmaker View Post
It isn't really a "straw process". it is well defined and easy to understand, but it does mean that the majority of the citizens who have to look at the statue may not have control over their own city's appearance.
Which of course was my point.

Virginia even with its rescinded policy can still be looked at for an example of the supposedly-existing "legal process" being obstructed by special interests; as we speak a judge is deciding a case brought against the governor of Virginia, who wants to remove a Confederate statue on state property, and a small group of individuals who are arguing that a specification in a document from 1889 requires the state to maintain the monument in literal perpetuity, all laws, changes in values, and public opinion notwithstanding. A ruling by the judge in favor of the plaintiffs would mean that there is, legally speaking, NO process whatsoever by which the state or the people can remove this monument.

Originally Posted by Meadmaker View Post
As for 2. Oh my God! People disagree! That's unfair! or something. I mean, seriously, what the heck is the point?
This was a response to a specific poster's specific arguments. That poster was not you. If you want the context, read back through that chain of conversation.
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Old 24th October 2020, 03:56 PM   #1581
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Quote:
I can only repeat what I've said before - your writings are so badly confused on the most basic facts that I can only shrug at whatever conclusions you derive from such nonsense.

Given that you completely failed to show me wrong in that the postmodernist progressives of today betrayed the vision of Martin Luther King (your original intention) I'd be more cautious to throw such grand claims. The confusion is rather on your part, you are not aware of basic facts. As for me History, Reason and personal experience taught me that non-violent, rational piecemeal reform along universalist lines is most of the time* the best solution if we want a stable better world. I don't think BLM qualifies here, they are rather the mob force used by the more moderate wing of postmodernist progressivists to rush via pressure unsustainable reforms going well beyond the phrase black lives matter, 'reforms' which weaken severely also what created the modern world (although more slowly than those who advocate open revolution now).

Finally you stake everything on a movement (postmodernist progressivism) which attacked even the Rationality of hard sciences in the name of 'justice' (see Alan Sokal affair), in your place I'd be much more cautious, the core ideas of the movement are deeply problematic, if not completely wrong. Maybe it is time to revisit what Steven Pinker said about those who try to 'cancel' him?


* exceptions exist when a strong push or open revolution is justified, not this time I''m afraid
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Old 24th October 2020, 06:48 PM   #1582
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By the way Richard Rorty, a man of the Left all his life, has this to say about the cultural Left:

Quote:
The cultural Left has a vision of an America in which the white patriarchs have stopped voting and have left all the voting to be done by members of previously victimized groups, people who have somehow come into possession of more foresight and imagination than the selfish suburbanites. These formerly oppressed and newly powerful people are expected to be as angelic as the straight white males were diabolical. If I shared this expectation, I too would want to live under this new dispensation. Since I see no reason to share it, I think that the Left should get back into the business of piecemeal reform within the framework of a market economy."
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Old 25th October 2020, 04:29 PM   #1583
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Originally Posted by metacristi View Post
By the way Richard Rorty, a man of the Left all his life, has this to say about the cultural Left:
A tiny group of uninfluential academics who are arguing against another tiny group of impotent intellectuals is hardly the actual discussion happening in the US. Im very much a leftist and I, as well as every hard-core leftist I know, love capitalism and hate Communism.

You are arguing against an effective straw-man.
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Old 27th October 2020, 04:17 PM   #1584
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And where exactly that 'strawman' is? Yours? I think so. I'm impressed by the 'vast knowledge' of logic among people on this forum, the problem is of course the lack of culture on the subject which make that knowledge totally ineffective. Rorty was arguing against the important turn of the Left toward identity politics and the grievance culture in the 1990s, what he advocated was basically a return to the old progressivism and a moderate form of leftist politics.

In other order of ideas BLM is the showcase product of the grievance culture created by the advent of postmodernist progressivism. They display the same hostile attitude toward those who do not take seriously their racially centered approach, see for example how they dispersed a meeting of Bernie Sanders in 2016 exactly because he did not have the racial perspective at the core of his message (economic inequalities central, but the rights of minorities were not forgotten), finally enough many of those who toppled statues were from BLM.

What they do is the direct consequence of diluting basically ad infinitum the definition of what means to be a racist widely used by the 'progressives of today, somehow racism never diminish (I'm afraid the days when the blacks had very few rights and white vigilantes imposed 'order' on the streets are long gone). The obvious result is abuse from the part of minorities, see for example what happened in UK when police stopped some celebrity black people for routine control (racism!). BLM actions were not triggered by the police exaggerations, that was only the opportunity to push their many other identity demands, some of them totally unjustified, non-rational and destructive. Martin Luther King knew better, you achieve nothing if you accuse ad infinitum the white majority of being racist. Let's better follow the advice of Rorty.
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Old 27th October 2020, 09:54 PM   #1585
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Originally Posted by metacristi View Post
And where exactly that 'strawman' is? Yours? I think so. I'm impressed by the 'vast knowledge' of logic among people on this forum, the problem is of course the lack of culture on the subject which make that knowledge totally ineffective. Rorty was arguing against the important turn of the Left toward identity politics and the grievance culture in the 1990s, what he advocated was basically a return to the old progressivism and a moderate form of leftist politics.

In other order of ideas BLM is the showcase product of the grievance culture created by the advent of postmodernist progressivism. They display the same hostile attitude toward those who do not take seriously their racially centered approach, see for example how they dispersed a meeting of Bernie Sanders in 2016 exactly because he did not have the racial perspective at the core of his message (economic inequalities central, but the rights of minorities were not forgotten), finally enough many of those who toppled statues were from BLM.

What they do is the direct consequence of diluting basically ad infinitum the definition of what means to be a racist widely used by the 'progressives of today, somehow racism never diminish (I'm afraid the days when the blacks had very few rights and white vigilantes imposed 'order' on the streets are long gone). The obvious result is abuse from the part of minorities, see for example what happened in UK when police stopped some celebrity black people for routine control (racism!). BLM actions were not triggered by the police exaggerations, that was only the opportunity to push their many other identity demands, some of them totally unjustified, non-rational and destructive. Martin Luther King knew better, you achieve nothing if you accuse ad infinitum the white majority of being racist. Let's better follow the advice of Rorty.
Strawmen and falsehoods hilited for your convenience.
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Old 28th October 2020, 10:34 AM   #1586
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The statues are fighting back.

https://www.sadanduseless.com/monume...ures-fighting/
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Old 28th October 2020, 11:03 AM   #1587
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Originally Posted by Athyrio View Post
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Old 28th October 2020, 11:15 AM   #1588
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Originally Posted by Athyrio View Post
Power to the pedestal.
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