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Old 9th June 2020, 03:37 AM   #201
The Don
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Meanwhile in Wales.....

It's only a plaque, not a statue but nevertheless:

Quote:
In the Welsh town of Brecon, upon an old wall, along Captains Walk (a name based on a fiction), is a slate plaque commemorating the life of a slave trader who resided in the town. The plaque was commissioned by Brecon Town Councillors in 2009, erected in October 2010 (during Black History Month), and makes no reference to the fact that Captain Phillips was a 17th century slaver.
https://www.brh.org.uk/site/articles...-slave-trader/
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Old 9th June 2020, 03:38 AM   #202
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My preference would be to recover the statue and put in a museum. Colston was just an extreme some parts bad, some parts good, version of us all, he was an evil slaver, who also did good by donating his money. His place in history has to be recognised.

I would then put up a new statue showing how much of Bristol's wealth came from slavery.

I would then repeat that process throughout the UK.
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Old 9th June 2020, 03:42 AM   #203
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Originally Posted by Captain_Swoop View Post
I see you are in the Farage camp.
I havenít read a word from Farage about this, but if you think an empty guilt by association charge is a win for you, congratulations.
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Old 9th June 2020, 03:44 AM   #204
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Originally Posted by Nessie View Post
My preference would be to recover the statue and put in a museum. Colston was just an extreme some parts bad, some parts good, version of us all, he was an evil slaver, who also did good by donating his money. His place in history has to be recognised.

I would then put up a new statue showing how much of Bristol's wealth came from slavery.

I would then repeat that process throughout the UK.
Well, yes and no.

Quote:
Colston constituted his charities to deny their benefits to those who did not share his religious and political views.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Edward_Colston

Maybe he wasn't quite as open-handed as his supporters would suggest.

Perhaps he also wasn't quite as generous as his reputation would lead Bristolians to believe:

Quote:
Perhaps one of the most interesting aspects of this whole Victorian charade is the fact that the much vaunted charitable efforts of the Colston Societies were largely superficial. For example, in 1884, the combined contribution of all the Colston related charities made up only 1.5 per cent of the total cost of relieving the poor that year. Not only was the amount collected fairly insignificant, despite all the fanfare, but it was also distributed in a badly organised and arbitrary manner.
https://www.brh.org.uk/site/articles...-within-myths/
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Old 9th June 2020, 04:07 AM   #205
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Originally Posted by Gilbert Syndrome View Post
Apparently, our old fat mayor, Joe Anderson, has said that plaques will be put up to highlight information about street names with a link to slavery.

https://www.liverpoolecho.co.uk/news...links-18380746
I like that, in general it's a good idea.
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Old 9th June 2020, 04:09 AM   #206
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Originally Posted by ponderingturtle View Post
Hey why isn't the Jimmy Savile statue included in this talks of important historic statues that totally shouldn't be torn down over being a creature of their times?
At least Lenin is being re-erected.
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Old 9th June 2020, 04:24 AM   #207
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The statue of Colston is no loss culturally, artistically, or, even, educationally. It's just a pity that no one had dare make that decision, and pulled it down safely, before the weekend. Bristol is a better place now
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Old 9th June 2020, 04:34 AM   #208
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Originally Posted by Jack by the hedge View Post
Now that surprised me. I'm familiar with the "triangular trade" story of slaves taken directly from Africa to the West Indies and America, and the sugar, tobacco and cotton which was the produce of their labour shipped to Britain, but not that slaves were brought to Britain, specifically because as I understood it slavery was not lawful here (though plenty were happy to tolerate and profit from it overseas). Is it really the case that African slaves were held in Bristol?
Yes. Though mainly as 'personal' slaves, it wasn't a major stop-over for slave ships, mostly for practical reasons. There were also a few who were 'personal property' of slaver crews or who were brought back to Bristol or Liverpool because they were unsaleable in the usual markets. Not from humanitarian concerns but to avoid accusations of loss from their owners...
Some merchants returning from the colonies brought back a few body servants, e.g. the Pinneys, Braithwaites et cetera.

Then there were "privilege slaves" a form of bonus to successful slaver captains

The legal status of slavery in Britain was complicated; there were various legal judgements, generally stating that slavery was illegal in the country, and political actions (such as the Yorke–Talbot slavery opinion) which generally protected the slave trade. In the 1740 there were still slave markets in Britain, held in Liverpool (a city that is undeservedly avoiding scrutiny at the moment) and London.

If you peruse the British city newspapers of the period (for example) you'll see advertisements offering rewards for the return of escaped slaves. I remember one in an issue of the London Gazette in 1685 while researching another matter.
Likewise there are advertisements in the Bristol papers of slaves for sale.

The judgement by Mansfield (him again!) in the Somerset case in 1772 effectively made slave-holding within Britain only illegal (the judgement was carefully limited in scope). At that time there were small numbers of black held as slaves in Britain, mostly as personal servants.

Hope this helps.

ETA: from my notes. An item from Farley 's Bristol Journal of August 1723. One Captain Joyhn Gwythen offered for sale
Quote:
a negro man aged about 20 years, well limb'd, fit to serve a gentleman or to be instructed in a trade
This was almost certainly a privilege slave.
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Last edited by catsmate; 9th June 2020 at 04:36 AM.
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Old 9th June 2020, 05:20 AM   #209
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And anyone who knows me will know I say this through gritted teeth to be fair to Liverpool (as its various councils) has since the 80s been very open and upfront as to its role in the slave trades. It doesnít hide its legacy.
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Old 9th June 2020, 05:34 AM   #210
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Originally Posted by Agatha View Post
I disagree; I think it should be recovered from the river and put into a museum in the same way Liverpool has done with much of its slavery monuments and history, as Gilbert Syndrome has mentioned. I don't think it should be returned to the plinth. We need to learn from history, not pretend it never happened.
Agreed, re-use the plinth and consign the 5.5m bronze to a museum.
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Old 9th June 2020, 05:37 AM   #211
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Really people how big of a "Racist Monument Museum" industry do you think most countries can support?
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Old 9th June 2020, 05:38 AM   #212
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Originally Posted by Jack by the hedge View Post
That part seems believable. A couple of centuries ago if you talked about a black man in Britain you meant a man with black hair. That much I gleaned from, amongst others, Patrick O'Brian, who delighted in using quaint but authentic dialogue.
And yet there were "Africans" "Negroes" or whatever you want to call them (blackamoors?) in Britain for centuries. Upwards of 15,000 by 1760.
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Old 9th June 2020, 05:54 AM   #213
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Originally Posted by Nessie View Post
My preference would be to recover the statue and put in a museum.
What museum would want it? Few of these are some kind of great artistic and cultural artifact. I suggest you create and find a way to finance such a museum specifically for these statues.
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Old 9th June 2020, 06:08 AM   #214
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Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
Really people how big of a "Racist Monument Museum" industry do you think most countries can support?
I like Bristol's idea of an underwater racist monument museum. Most coastal cities should have room for one of them.

Dave
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Old 9th June 2020, 07:18 AM   #215
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King Leopold going in a more stately manner (which he clearly doesn't deserve), but still going
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Old 9th June 2020, 08:30 AM   #216
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Originally Posted by Nessie View Post
My preference would be to recover the statue and put in a museum. Colston was just an extreme some parts bad, some parts good, version of us all, he was an evil slaver, who also did good by donating his money. His place in history has to be recognised.

I would then put up a new statue showing how much of Bristol's wealth came from slavery.

I would then repeat that process throughout the UK.

The London Docklands museum is quite good: London, Sugar & Slavery.
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Old 9th June 2020, 08:35 AM   #217
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Originally Posted by Giordano View Post
There are arguments that it is unfair to judge people who lived in the past by our current moral values. But statues to these people exist in our current reality; they are here now, in our time, and it is therefore certainly fair to judge them by our current values. The question is not if it was right for people to honor in 1860 a slaver, or a Confederate general, by building a statue in 1860. I think not, but that boat has sailed. They were honored by the standards of their time, by enough people to have made the statues happen. And because of the racist standards of the 1870s, 1880s, etc. the honor continued and statues stayed up.

But now most of us recognize slavery to be a horror and an affront to humanity. Time for the statues to come done and either be melted away or placed in a museum of horrors. We donít have to continue to honor people just because moral standards in the past were not what we hold to be true now.
Well, this comes down to the difference between celebrating and remembering. Personally, I think history should be remembered, though obviously, not always celebrated. Then you could ask the question, should some people who were involved in doing bad things be celebrated? That's a question where we don't seem to be clear on the answer. We often celebrate people who had some involvement with less savoury things. Another puzzling question is what about buildings with a dubious past? Are they worthy of being torn down, are they worthy of serving as a form of remembrance? Can you consider some of these buildings as places that people celebrate?*

The tower of London is a massive tourist trap where people from all over the world happily buy up the merchandise and gather around to get a kick out of gruesome stories, despite the fact that people were imprisoned, tortured and killed there, many of them even innocent to some degree... Likewise, for instance, Ripper tours are similar, they are often full of exaggerated details to dazzle the crowd and enjoyed by people who often sport Ripper cosplay, of all things! There's even a Jack the Ripper museum that's less about remembering the victims and seemingly more about celebrating the murders like they're some Conan Doyle tale. So do some people and places deserve remembering? For what reasons? Can we still read literature, watch movies, listen to music, or admire the art of dubious people? Is that a form of celebration?

It's not so black and white to me (pun obviously intended).

England is steeped in history that isn't exactly brimming with joy, but are we celebrating the history or merely remembering it? What about holidays that we all celebrate on autopilot that are rooted in dark, sometimes violent origins? Are they still okay to celebrate?

With Colston, people are (rightly) offended by his links to the slave trade, and they feel that he shouldn't be celebrated. I don't disagree with that, I don't honestly care either way, but I don't disagree with it. So are more statues, buildings, monuments, works of art, and even people themselves, up for the same scrutiny? Do we re-evaluate history? Re-evaluate art?

Regarding slavery, it, obviously, was more than a blemish on humanity's history, and it still is, it never truly went away. The problem is that much of our country is rooted in it, from buildings to monuments to cultural institutions, industries, and on and on... So if we're talking about holding everything up to our current standards of morality, how much of our history that we're surrounded with are we realistically allowed to re-evaluate and possibly remove?
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Old 9th June 2020, 08:38 AM   #218
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There's a pretty big goddamn space between "Judging people who lived a significant amount of time ago by our standards" and "Keeping monuments to them up."
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Old 9th June 2020, 08:38 AM   #219
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Originally Posted by William Parcher View Post
Would Egyptian monuments and ancient Egyptian artifacts be destroyed if there was found to be any connection to slavery? Or, is that something different or not applicable?
It's a fair point. There's an argument to be made that the pyramids, for instance, were not actually the product of slave labour, but paid labour. So it depends how you view that period of history.
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Old 9th June 2020, 08:46 AM   #220
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Originally Posted by catsmate View Post

There are several in Germany already. Children like them:

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Potsdam - Bust of Lenin, originally at a Soviet Army base, it was placed in the Volkspark for an exhibition in 1994 and was subsequently moved to one of the main entrances where it is used as a children's climbing feature.
List of statues of Vladimir Lenin (Wikipedia)
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Old 9th June 2020, 08:47 AM   #221
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Originally Posted by Darat View Post
I keep going back to this, where has the idea arisen from that we must be bound to what folk in the past decided they wanted as ornaments? Especially given that in the past for the vast majority of such "commemorations" would have had sod all to do with the general public and will have been decided upon by a very small, completely unrepresentative actual elite celebrating themselves.

They put up and pulled down what they wanted, as should everyone.
True, but who gets to decide what's worthy of commemorating and what isn't? The UK can't even agree on whether it wants to remain in Europe or not, not to mention which particular wally it wants to run their affairs.

We're all, presumably, very different when it comes to what we hold dear and thus we're all different when it comes to what we feel should or should not be commemorated. I imagine there's a lot of people out there who feel that Piers Morgan is a jolly good bloke, but I wouldn't fancy giving them the chance to vote for a street in his honour.

Piers' Place.

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Old 9th June 2020, 08:48 AM   #222
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I had never heard of Monument Avenue before now. I think an empty plinth where Lee's statue is would leave a real hole. It would be an eyesore. This is a case where I would not want the statue removed just because its absence would be aesthetically not pleasing.

Replace Lee's statue with something else. Add statues around the circle where the current statue stands. Change plaques. Do something, but don't just take away the great big thing that is the center of attention.
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Old 9th June 2020, 08:49 AM   #223
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Originally Posted by Darat View Post
Lionking - why do you think we have to be bound by the decisions of people made 50, 200 or 40,000 years ago? Why can't people today do what those people did and decide what they want to commemorate in their public spaces?
I'm all for that, but I seriously doubt it'll end well...

Our country, not to mention our cousins across the pond, are seemingly at odds with each other over most things. I doubt we'd all come to an agreement on the things we should have bronzed or framed.
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Old 9th June 2020, 08:52 AM   #224
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Originally Posted by Nessie View Post
My preference would be to recover the statue and put in a museum. Colston was just an extreme some parts bad, some parts good, version of us all, he was an evil slaver, who also did good by donating his money. His place in history has to be recognised.

I would then put up a new statue showing how much of Bristol's wealth came from slavery.

I would then repeat that process throughout the UK.
Fair play.
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Old 9th June 2020, 08:54 AM   #225
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Originally Posted by catsmate View Post
I like that, in general it's a good idea.
I agree, it's firmly putting those links in the realm of remembrance, IMO, as opposed to celebration.

While we don't have to celebrate the things our predecessors did, we can remember them and hopefully, teach the future generations to learn from them.
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Old 9th June 2020, 09:03 AM   #226
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Originally Posted by Darat View Post
And anyone who knows me will know I say this through gritted teeth to be fair to Liverpool (as its various councils) has since the 80s been very open and upfront as to its role in the slave trades. It doesn’t hide its legacy.
Why do you say it through gritted teeth?

Anyone who's ever stepped foot in this city knows it's not shy about its past. Nor are we shamed by our strong multicultural communities, and anyone who claims to be is not your average Liverpudlian. We've one of the oldest Caribbean communities in the UK, if not the oldest, as well as one of the oldest Chinese communities. We had free black men and women here as early as 1710.

The White Man March, organised by National Action, the right wing group, was famously chased out of this city with their tails between their legs.

Liverpool was built on immigration, and we're not all oblivious to that fact.
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Old 9th June 2020, 09:06 AM   #227
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Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
There's a pretty big goddamn space between "Judging people who lived a significant amount of time ago by our standards" and "Keeping monuments to them up."
There's also a pretty big space between what people agree and disagree on. I agree a lot of stuff should be re-evaluated, I don't agree that it's something we can all have a general stab at simply because we've decided we can.
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Old 9th June 2020, 10:05 AM   #228
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Originally Posted by Darat View Post
And anyone who knows me will know I say this through gritted teeth to be fair to Liverpool (as its various councils) has since the 80s been very open and upfront as to its role in the slave trades. It doesnít hide its legacy.
Seconded, my in-laws are in Liverpool so it physically pains me to speak in support of the place but criticizing Liverpool for it's history regarding slavery is redundant. They openly and publicly acknowledge it and go to great lengths to educate on it's history.

International Slavery Museum
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Old 9th June 2020, 10:09 AM   #229
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Originally Posted by Gilbert Syndrome View Post
Why do you say it through gritted teeth?

....snip...
Saying anything even remotely non-critical of Liverpool hurts me! I would be considered a wollyback by the inhabitants of Liverpool.
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Old 9th June 2020, 10:26 AM   #230
Gilbert Syndrome
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Originally Posted by Darat View Post
Saying anything even remotely non-critical of Liverpool hurts me! I would be considered a wollyback by the inhabitants of Liverpool.
Well, we're not exactly out for the blood of woolybacks, lol. We try to welcome everyone here, including people from Birkenhead and the surrounding areas
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Old 9th June 2020, 10:32 AM   #231
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Originally Posted by P.J. Denyer View Post
Seconded, my in-laws are in Liverpool so it physically pains me to speak in support of the place but criticizing Liverpool for it's history regarding slavery is redundant. They openly and publicly acknowledge it and go to great lengths to educate on it's history.

International Slavery Museum
People often do it, regardless, because so many of them do it from elsewhere. People who know the city, or have visited, understand that our history, both good and bad, is on display for all to see.

Like I mentioned earlier, one of my more vivid childhood memories regarding school was visiting the maritime museum, which I loved, and it didn't hold back on the realities of the slave trade, it was often regarded as pretty haunting lesson for many young kids. It definitely stuck in my mind.

I adore the history of this city, as do/did my entire family, and I know all too well the many links we have with the slave trade. My bookshelf is lined with books on the docks, our shipping industries, and everything in between.
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Old 9th June 2020, 11:18 AM   #232
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Originally Posted by Gilbert Syndrome View Post
Well, this comes down to the difference between celebrating and remembering. Personally, I think history should be remembered, though obviously, not always celebrated. Then you could ask the question, should some people who were involved in doing bad things be celebrated? That's a question where we don't seem to be clear on the answer. We often celebrate people who had some involvement with less savoury things. Another puzzling question is what about buildings with a dubious past? Are they worthy of being torn down, are they worthy of serving as a form of remembrance? Can you consider some of these buildings as places that people celebrate?*

The tower of London is a massive tourist trap where people from all over the world happily buy up the merchandise and gather around to get a kick out of gruesome stories, despite the fact that people were imprisoned, tortured and killed there, many of them even innocent to some degree... Likewise, for instance, Ripper tours are similar, they are often full of exaggerated details to dazzle the crowd and enjoyed by people who often sport Ripper cosplay, of all things! There's even a Jack the Ripper museum that's less about remembering the victims and seemingly more about celebrating the murders like they're some Conan Doyle tale. So do some people and places deserve remembering? For what reasons? Can we still read literature, watch movies, listen to music, or admire the art of dubious people? Is that a form of celebration?

It's not so black and white to me (pun obviously intended).
I think there's an obviously huge difference between a tourist trap that you choose to go to and pay to get in, and a public statue that (in the US at least) is paid for by public taxes, maintained by the government, and is usually in a place of honor that one can't avoid such as a courthouse or main square. People can spend their own money to get their jollies at a Jack the Ripper museum all they want, or pay for a copy of music or a movie or art. That's rather different than government sponsored celebration and honoring of Robert E Lee or Colston, especially over the opposition of the citizenry paying for those honors.
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Old 9th June 2020, 11:34 AM   #233
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Originally Posted by wareyin View Post
I think there's an obviously huge difference between a tourist trap that you choose to go to and pay to get in, and a public statue that (in the US at least) is paid for by public taxes, maintained by the government, and is usually in a place of honor that one can't avoid such as a courthouse or main square. People can spend their own money to get their jollies at a Jack the Ripper museum all they want, or pay for a copy of music or a movie or art. That's rather different than government sponsored celebration and honoring of Robert E Lee or Colston, especially over the opposition of the citizenry paying for those honors.
The point I was making is that where do you draw the line? I'm in no way saying that the Tower of London should be torn down, but if someone argued the point that it should, would they be heard? Is gathering around to hear stories of innocent people being brutally murdered an act of remembrance or an act of celebration?

If monuments to questionable people of history are up for scrutiny, are buildings? Is art? Music? Film? Literature?

In another thread, the topic of Lovecraft's racism was mentioned, yet we continue to celebrate him as an important author who influences many. In fact, his very likeness was made into an award for authors of Fantasy fiction!

Isn't this shedding light on whether or not we can ever truly forgive and forget? Is all of the good a person does negated by the bad he also does?

Seems to me we don't bother thinking about any of it because it's a messy, blurred road that inevitably leads to contradiction somewhere along the way.

Again, I've no issue with Colston's statue being torn down, but inevitably, it leads me to wonder what else we can now re-evaluate and be rid of because we no longer see fit to accept it.

It's a pesky battle between celebrating and remembering.
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Old 9th June 2020, 11:42 AM   #234
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Originally Posted by Gilbert Syndrome View Post
The point I was making is that where do you draw the line? I'm in no way saying that the Tower of London should be torn down, but if someone argued the point that it should, would they be heard? Is gathering around to hear stories of innocent people being brutally murdered an act of remembrance or an act of celebration?
Well look at all the celebration photos taken at Auschwitz. Should that be a reason to tear it down?

It is pretty easy, everything stands on its own merits. Statues unlike building tend to not be historically significant, and the ones being talked about are not artistically significant either. They were put up to memorialize and generally celebrate a specific group or individual, and as such we can determine if that individual or group is one that deserves celebration.

I am still waiting for people to start funding a museum of acres and acres of such public statuary. You could have all kinds of fun wings/regions for various political movements dictators and the like.
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Old 9th June 2020, 11:46 AM   #235
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Originally Posted by Gilbert Syndrome View Post
The point I was making is that where do you draw the line? I'm in no way saying that the Tower of London should be torn down, but if someone argued the point that it should, would they be heard? Is gathering around to hear stories of innocent people being brutally murdered an act of remembrance or an act of celebration?


It occurs to me that I am not a fan of hereditary monarchs. Oh, The Queen is just fine. She has no power. A real monarch, though, is someone who gets to tell people what to do because he had the good fortune to emerge from the right womb at the right time. Some of them turned out to be not so bad as all the rest, but the whole concept is thoroughly ridiculous.

And so the United Kindom doesn't just keep statues of those people around, they keep real people in costume pretending to be those people, let them speak to parliament, and sell commemorative teacups when they get married.

What did the various kings and queens of England (and miscellaneous other bits that varied through history) do that they deserve such elaborate commemoration?

But of course, it's not really that. It's not that those eight guys named Henry were paragons of virtue that should be revered. It's that they represent a tradition, a history, a collective identity of the people who live there now.
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Old 9th June 2020, 11:48 AM   #236
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Originally Posted by The Don View Post
Well, yes and no.



https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Edward_Colston

Maybe he wasn't quite as open-handed as his supporters would suggest.

Perhaps he also wasn't quite as generous as his reputation would lead Bristolians to believe:



https://www.brh.org.uk/site/articles...-within-myths/
There are lots of charitable legacies like that. Other common ones are funds that only women or residents of a certain area can apply for.

Colston's actions are being repeated today, where strict conditions are placed on who gets.
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Old 9th June 2020, 11:48 AM   #237
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Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
There's a pretty big goddamn space between "Judging people who lived a significant amount of time ago by our standards" and "Keeping monuments to them up."
I keep saying that too, but it seems to whiz right by some. I think all too often people apply a rickety transitive property to ideas and expressions. If dumping the statue is tantamount to altering one's view, and if altering one's view is tantamount to rewriting history, and rewriting history is tantamount to denying it, then dumping the statue is denying history.
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Old 9th June 2020, 12:19 PM   #238
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Tear down Genghis Khan and Timur statues while you're at it. Maybe we can move all of these jackasses into a museum or hide them in a cave.
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Old 9th June 2020, 12:20 PM   #239
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Originally Posted by bruto View Post
I keep saying that too, but it seems to whiz right by some. I think all too often people apply a rickety transitive property to ideas and expressions. If dumping the statue is tantamount to altering one's view, and if altering one's view is tantamount to rewriting history, and rewriting history is tantamount to denying it, then dumping the statue is denying history.
I don't they put nearly that much thought into it, they've just trained themselves to never be wrong by forever stalling out conversations with endless hair splitting so it never ends.

Which is annoying at the best of times, downright an issue when it's always the thing that keeps social problems from being solved.
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Old 9th June 2020, 12:27 PM   #240
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Originally Posted by Gilbert Syndrome View Post
The point I was making is that where do you draw the line? I'm in no way saying that the Tower of London should be torn down, but if someone argued the point that it should, would they be heard? Is gathering around to hear stories of innocent people being brutally murdered an act of remembrance or an act of celebration?
If people wish to go somewhere and pay to hear such stories, I don't care. Lumping that in with statues that people don't choose to pay for seems like an apples and oranges thing.

Originally Posted by Gilbert Syndrome View Post
If monuments to questionable people of history are up for scrutiny, are buildings? Is art? Music? Film? Literature?
It really looks like you are struggling to differentiate between things that people choose to pay for and choose to attend vs things that the government forces people to pay for and puts in public places of prominence. As I don't think those are remotely the same, for absurdly obvious reasons, I don't really know how to make the differences more clear.

Originally Posted by Gilbert Syndrome View Post
In another thread, the topic of Lovecraft's racism was mentioned, yet we continue to celebrate him as an important author who influences many. In fact, his very likeness was made into an award for authors of Fantasy fiction!
Oh no, a privately funded award with the face of someone who held racist ideas! Given that knowledge, how can we justify not using public funds to purchase and maintain on public lands statues to people who fought a war solely for the right to own slaves or people who made vast fortunes selling slaves?!?!

Originally Posted by Gilbert Syndrome View Post
Isn't this shedding light on whether or not we can ever truly forgive and forget? Is all of the good a person does negated by the bad he also does?
In the case of the Confederate statues, those were put up to celebrate the bad they did. That makes it difficult to forgive and forget the bad they did.

Originally Posted by Gilbert Syndrome View Post
Seems to me we don't bother thinking about any of it because it's a messy, blurred road that inevitably leads to contradiction somewhere along the way.
I'm sure that if we break things down to the sub-atomic level we can find some blurry messiness. But from here it looks more like you are struggling to find a mess, even going so far as conflating obviously different things to create a mess.

Originally Posted by Gilbert Syndrome View Post
Again, I've no issue with Colston's statue being torn down, but inevitably, it leads me to wonder what else we can now re-evaluate and be rid of because we no longer see fit to accept it.

It's a pesky battle between celebrating and remembering.
No, I think the distinctions are still pretty clear.
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