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Old 9th June 2020, 12:51 PM   #241
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Originally Posted by Gilbert Syndrome View Post
The point I was making is that where do you draw the line? I'm in no way saying that the Tower of London should be torn down, but if someone argued the point that it should, would they be heard? Is gathering around to hear stories of innocent people being brutally murdered an act of remembrance or an act of celebration? ...snip...
Why shouldn't it be up to the people alive today what they do as it was to the people hundreds of years ago? Societies and cultures are always changing.

Originally Posted by Gilbert Syndrome View Post
If monuments to questionable people of history are up for scrutiny, are buildings? Is art? Music? Film? Literature?
Seems pretty much unconnected to this topic but again why shouldn't the people today be able to make such decisions for themselves?

Originally Posted by Gilbert Syndrome View Post

In another thread, the topic of Lovecraft's racism was mentioned, yet we continue to celebrate him as an important author who influences many. In fact, his very likeness was made into an award for authors of Fantasy fiction!

Isn't this shedding light on whether or not we can ever truly forgive and forget? Is all of the good a person does negated by the bad he also does?

Seems to me we don't bother thinking about any of it because it's a messy, blurred road that inevitably leads to contradiction somewhere along the way.

Again, I've no issue with Colston's statue being torn down, but inevitably, it leads me to wonder what else we can now re-evaluate and be rid of because we no longer see fit to accept it.

It's a pesky battle between celebrating and remembering.
People have always had this issue; it isn't a new thing. I'd say these days we are in fact much more sensitive and try to be better informed when we are making these types of decisions then ever before. It’s only a few hundred years ago the word would go out from the ruler that X is now out of favour and everyone would be quick to remove anything that even reminded people of X.

We’ve now decided as a society that slave traders are not people we want to commemorate no matter if they did other things that we still respect. It is just a change.

There is a slight wrinkle in this for the USA folk as it is apparent that many of the “confederate” statues were deliberately put up in quite recent times to commemorate the fight to keep slavery so there is no “but he was loved his dog” that needs to be taken into consideration.
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Old 9th June 2020, 01:58 PM   #242
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Originally Posted by Squeegee Beckenheim View Post
The latter method is to be preferred, if workable. If, however, it is itself an example of how institutional racism actually manifests, then what is to be done?

Bear in mind as you're decrying this that the mayor of Bristol has come as close to endorsing this as his office will allow, and that the city council has collected the signs left around the base in order to preserve them in the local museum.
He's only a Mayor for a short time. This is not about the Mayor.
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Old 9th June 2020, 01:59 PM   #243
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Originally Posted by Darat View Post
Who erected it and when and who agreed to it?
...The Mayor of the day...?
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Old 9th June 2020, 02:04 PM   #244
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Originally Posted by Brainster View Post
You keep mentioning this insurance on 20,000 people killed and thrown into the sea; do you have a source for that? It strikes me that the insurance company marketing that particular policy must have gone broke.
I believe it was called the South Sea Bubble.
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Old 9th June 2020, 02:06 PM   #245
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Originally Posted by Pixel42 View Post
I understand what you're saying but it's pretty clear that Saville's charitable activities were designed solely to give him access to vulnerable children and adults, so he's probably not the best example to use.
Be fair. He did teach people to go, 'Clunk, Click, every trip', and out their seat belts on.
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Old 9th June 2020, 02:16 PM   #246
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Originally Posted by Squeegee Beckenheim View Post
How is tearing down a statue of a slave trader avoiding scrutiny of Bristol's past? Couldn't scrutiny better be served by, say, a memorial to the slaves? Or, as I've said previously, a statue of important black people from history? My suggestion was the men who created and led the Bristol bus boycott - it's still the history of the town, it's appropriate because it replaces a racist with people who campaigned against racism, and it's filling a space emptied by a protest with a statue to people who instigated a protest.
That's a good idea. I like it!
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Old 9th June 2020, 02:18 PM   #247
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Originally Posted by catsmate View Post
A man who realised the evils of slavery? Who campaigned to end it? Who lived to see the trade banned by a law he'd helped create?
Only because he was in a storm and thought he was going to drown.
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Old 9th June 2020, 02:21 PM   #248
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Originally Posted by catsmate View Post
And everyone else gets to remove them. Like this, or this, or this, or this, or this.
Fighting talk! Take down Nelson?!!! <choke> It will never happen as the average Brit rates Nelson as one of the greatest admirals who ever lived, if not the greatest Brit.
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Old 9th June 2020, 02:47 PM   #249
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Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
I get that. However, if it hadn't been him it would have been somebody else.
How is that any kind of excuse? the same could be said of Hitler.
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Old 9th June 2020, 02:56 PM   #250
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Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
I get that. However, if it hadn't been him it would have been somebody else.
Which is a great argument against statues generally.
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Old 9th June 2020, 02:57 PM   #251
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Originally Posted by Captain_Swoop View Post
How is that any kind of excuse? the same could be said of Hitler.
Economics and society evolves. It started with the family unit, then became feudalism, then the slave trade, then they discovered it was cheaper to build factories of mass production (industrialisation), the old slave plantations became massive industrial sized farms, moving from the old plantations in Barbados and Jamaica with a big old house governed by a younger brother member of the gentility to overseer-managed 20,000 acre sugar and cotton fields in North and South Carolina, as the ruling classes discovered you could pay the former slaves and peasants a wage, out of which they could pay their own housing and food (but only just enough to cover that, mind) with the excess profit going into the pockets of...that's right people of the same class as Colston and the hedge-fund managers shorting the pound over Brexit.

So we are at the stage of late capitalism. Thanks to the recent pandemic and crash of markets we are now looking for the next stage in economic evolution.
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Old 9th June 2020, 04:10 PM   #252
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Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
...The Mayor of the day...?

Was it?
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Old 9th June 2020, 04:26 PM   #253
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Originally Posted by Captain_Swoop View Post
How is that any kind of excuse? the same could be said of Hitler.
I don't think "excuse" is a proper word, but it does go back to the point I was making about the society in which Colston lived. He was occupying a niche in a corrupt society. Had he not participated in the slave trade, no slaves would have been saved. On the other hand, had he not participated in the slave trade, several charitable organizations in Bristol would not have existed.

I'm not saying that we ought to replace his statue. I'm saying that when compared to his fellow men of his time, he was probably not particularly awful. Being a slaver made him no worse that the people and politicians who supported slavery. On the other hand, being a philanthropist made him better than a lot of equally wealthy individuals of his day.

Maybe it was a good thing to take the statue down, though, just to spare all who viewed it the reminder of the unsavory moments of the past. While everyone in that society was touched by slavery, not all were quite so enmeshed in it. Public statuary should, above all else, make us feel good. Perhaps Colston was just too tainted with the rot of the times to be enjoyed anymore.
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Old 9th June 2020, 04:29 PM   #254
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Well, it brings a whole new meaning to the term "Everything Shipshape and in Bristol Fashion".
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Old 9th June 2020, 08:30 PM   #255
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Protesters in Richmond, Virginia toppled a statue of Christopher Columbus and set it on fire before tossing it into a nearby lake.
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Old 10th June 2020, 04:25 AM   #256
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https://twitter.com/Femi_Sorry/statu...447164930?s=20

Originally Posted by Femi
I'm trying to organise building a statue of Jimmy Saville outside Birmingham Children's Hospital because his contribution to kids' entertainment is an important part of our history, and without a statue we'd forget the great things he did.

Let me know if you're willing to help.
For those who don't know him, Femi is black and this tweet is a parody.
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Old 10th June 2020, 05:55 AM   #257
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Originally Posted by Darat View Post
Johnson never owned coffee shops.

He had a cat though. Maybe Hodge’s statue could be removed instead.
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Old 10th June 2020, 05:57 AM   #258
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Christopher Columbus statue in Boston was decapitated overnight.

https://boston.cbslocal.com/2020/06/...massachusetts/
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Old 10th June 2020, 06:22 AM   #259
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- I really didn't know that so many people just hate statues in general.

- I still say that demanding we have the conversation on top of / in parallel to disenfranchised people asking that statues specifically put up to glorify the people who oppressed them is inappropriate.
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Old 10th June 2020, 06:55 AM   #260
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Originally Posted by Checkmite View Post
Protesters in Richmond, Virginia toppled a statue of Christopher Columbus and set it on fire before tossing it into a nearby lake.
And they undoubtedly patted themselves on the back for being good people for doing it. Nothing says virtue like properly targeted vandalism.

ETA: I read the article. Despite them being good people doing great and virtuous deeds, they were reluctant to allow a news photographer to record their efforts.

Last edited by Meadmaker; 10th June 2020 at 07:01 AM.
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Old 10th June 2020, 07:06 AM   #261
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No evil is worse than virtue signaling.

"I may be a Nazi, a puppy kicker, a baby puncher, a rapist, have committed Genocide on 3 occassions, leaves frozen products out on the shelf at the grocery store when I decided not to buy them, but I sir am no virtue signaler!"

When the ever loving **** did "Doing a good thing but not being humble about it or doing it just for the attention" become the worse possible thing a person can do?
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Old 10th June 2020, 07:09 AM   #262
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Originally Posted by Meadmaker View Post
And they undoubtedly patted themselves on the back for being good people for doing it. Nothing says virtue like properly targeted vandalism.

ETA: I read the article. Despite them being good people doing great and virtuous deeds, they were reluctant to allow a news photographer to record their efforts.
Yep as bad as those "sons of liberty" and their boston tea party. Those are the kind of people who really shouldn't have any monuments to them.
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Old 10th June 2020, 07:14 AM   #263
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Originally Posted by SuburbanTurkey View Post
Christopher Columbus statue in Boston was decapitated overnight.

https://boston.cbslocal.com/2020/06/...massachusetts/
Did they mistake him for Josiah Springfield?
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Old 10th June 2020, 07:26 AM   #264
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Originally Posted by Checkmite View Post
Protesters in Richmond, Virginia toppled a statue of Christopher Columbus and set it on fire before tossing it into a nearby lake.

We've got to stop casting statues out of magnesium.
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Old 10th June 2020, 07:37 AM   #265
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Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
No evil is worse than virtue signaling.

"I may be a Nazi, a puppy kicker, a baby puncher, a rapist, have committed Genocide on 3 occassions, leaves frozen products out on the shelf at the grocery store when I decided not to buy them, but I sir am no virtue signaler!"

When the ever loving **** did "Doing a good thing but not being humble about it or doing it just for the attention" become the worse possible thing a person can do?
To my way of thinking, tearing down statues is not a good thing. Some exceptions apply, but not many.
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Old 10th June 2020, 07:38 AM   #266
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Originally Posted by Meadmaker View Post
To my way of thinking, tearing down statues is not a good thing. Some exceptions apply, but not many.
1. No, I'm not looking at the squirrel. Your response had nothing to do with anything I said.

2. To my way of thinking putting up statues to glorify racists traitors is not a good thing.
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Old 10th June 2020, 07:47 AM   #267
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Originally Posted by SuburbanTurkey View Post
Christopher Columbus statue in Boston was decapitated overnight.

https://boston.cbslocal.com/2020/06/...massachusetts/
That's terrible.

They should have cut his hands off for not bringing them enough gold.
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Old 10th June 2020, 07:51 AM   #268
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Originally Posted by Meadmaker View Post
To my way of thinking, tearing down statues is not a good thing. Some exceptions apply, but not many.
Why? Why do these things matter?
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Old 10th June 2020, 07:56 AM   #269
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Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
1. No, I'm not looking at the squirrel. Your response had nothing to do with anything I said.
"What you said", was incoherent. I was trying to make sense out of "Doing a good thing but not being humble about it", but perhaps I failed. I picked the only think I could think of that you might be calling "a good thing" that was also part of that thread of conversation. Maybe I got it wrong. Perhaps you can explain what "good thing" you meant.


Quote:
2. To my way of thinking putting up statues to glorify racists traitors is not a good thing.
Speaking of squirrels.

We were talking about the destruction of a statue of Columbus. I don't think he was a traitor.

Would you prefer to talk about the Confederate monuments? I think it's fair to call those people traitors. Fine, but this thread isn't exclusively about them. It's about "statues associated with racial injustice", including Colston and now Columbus.

Or is this yet another case of "anything I'm not interested in is a distraction".
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Old 10th June 2020, 08:25 AM   #270
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Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
No evil is worse than virtue signaling.

"I may be a Nazi, a puppy kicker, a baby puncher, a rapist, have committed Genocide on 3 occassions, leaves frozen products out on the shelf at the grocery store when I decided not to buy them, but I sir am no virtue signaler!"

When the ever loving **** did "Doing a good thing but not being humble about it or doing it just for the attention" become the worse possible thing a person can do?
Not to argue the point, but in the interests of understanding:

No one thinks virtue signalling is the worst behavior, etc. Some of us view it as obnoxious and petty, and only serves as a cheap substitute for actual understanding, discussion, and any kind of forward motion. It gets called out in the spirit of "just stop, that's not helping" rather than "what great evil thou doest. It shows that the virtue signaller wants to toot his/her horn without offering anything constructive. It almost never, as you say, follows actually having done a good thing.
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Old 10th June 2020, 09:44 AM   #271
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Originally Posted by Myriad View Post
We've got to stop casting statues out of magnesium.
Balderdash. All outdoor statues should be made out of magnesium, so that in the case future society decides the statue needs to go it can go in style.
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Old 10th June 2020, 09:54 AM   #272
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Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
No evil is worse than virtue signaling.

"I may be a Nazi, a puppy kicker, a baby puncher, a rapist, have committed Genocide on 3 occassions, leaves frozen products out on the shelf at the grocery store when I decided not to buy them, but I sir am no virtue signaler!"

When the ever loving **** did "Doing a good thing but not being humble about it or doing it just for the attention" become the worse possible thing a person can do?
I think it's even worse than that, at least as the conservative sorts seem to use the term, because it applies even to people who may believe in things, but who are not, according to the critics, doing what they would do if they believed in it (which they don't).

The implication is that if you advocate something that is not directly related to your immediate condition, you're virtue signalling or a social justice warrior and a hypocrite. I suspect that this is projection on the part of critics who simply cannot imagine standing for any principle bigger than their stomachs.

It's extreme and hyperbolic, but in these times it's hard not to look at what's happening and being said by our "fearless leader" and his minions, and not to reduce it to hatred of anything they don't see in the mirror.
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Old 10th June 2020, 09:58 AM   #273
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Originally Posted by bruto View Post
I think it's even worse than that, at least as the conservative sorts seem to use the term, because it applies even to people who may believe in things, but who are not, according to the critics, doing what they would do if they believed in it (which they don't).

The implication is that if you advocate something that is not directly related to your immediate condition, you're virtue signalling or a social justice warrior and a hypocrite. I suspect that this is projection on the part of critics who simply cannot imagine standing for any principle bigger than their stomachs.

It's extreme and hyperbolic, but in these times it's hard not to look at what's happening and being said by our "fearless leader" and his minions, and not to reduce it to hatred of anything they don't see in the mirror.
As my pappy always said: if you aren't out bombing abortion clinics then you are just virtue signaling.
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Old 10th June 2020, 10:17 AM   #274
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Originally Posted by bruto View Post
I think it's even worse than that, at least as the conservative sorts seem to use the term, because it applies even to people who may believe in things, but who are not, according to the critics, doing what they would do if they believed in it (which they don't).

The implication is that if you advocate something that is not directly related to your immediate condition, you're virtue signalling or a social justice warrior and a hypocrite. I suspect that this is projection on the part of critics who simply cannot imagine standing for any principle bigger than their stomachs.

It's extreme and hyperbolic, but in these times it's hard not to look at what's happening and being said by our "fearless leader" and his minions, and not to reduce it to hatred of anything they don't see in the mirror.
Yet the same people love to virtue signal about the plight of rural america.
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Old 10th June 2020, 11:02 AM   #275
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A thought occurred to me, and I decided to google it. It turns out plenty of others had the same thought.

I learned that not only was Amerigo Vespucci a racist, but he was in fact a slave trader. God bless America?
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Old 10th June 2020, 11:10 AM   #276
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Originally Posted by SuburbanTurkey View Post
Christopher Columbus statue in Boston was decapitated overnight.

https://boston.cbslocal.com/2020/06/...massachusetts/
He never even set foot in North America.

Quote:
*Columbus didn't “discover” America — he never set foot in North America. During four separate trips that started with the one in 1492, Columbus landed on various Caribbean islands that are now the Bahamas as well as the island later called Hispaniola. He also explored the Central and South American coasts.
Washington Post
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Old 10th June 2020, 11:29 AM   #277
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One thing that makes me more hostile to some statues than others is not just the story behind the person on the statue, but the story behind the statues themselves.

Learning about when the statues to Lee and the other Confederates so honored were put up, and the people who put them up, I came to believe the statues themselves were a deliberate attempt to continue oppression of black people. That makes me much more sympathetic to their removal. I don't think that was the case with Colston, Washington, or Columbus.
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Old 10th June 2020, 11:32 AM   #278
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Originally Posted by Meadmaker View Post
One thing that makes me more hostile to some statues than others is not just the story behind the person on the statue, but the story behind the statues themselves.

Learning about when the statues to Lee and the other Confederates so honored were put up, and the people who put them up, I came to believe the statues themselves were a deliberate attempt to continue oppression of black people. That makes me much more sympathetic to their removal. I don't think that was the case with Colston, Washington, or Columbus.
So you stand with king Leopold I see. Totally wrong to remove his statue not matter how much of a monster he was.
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Old 10th June 2020, 11:33 AM   #279
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Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
No evil is worse than virtue signaling.

"I may be a Nazi, a puppy kicker, a baby puncher, a rapist, have committed Genocide on 3 occassions, leaves frozen products out on the shelf at the grocery store when I decided not to buy them, but I sir am no virtue signaler!"

When the ever loving **** did "Doing a good thing but not being humble about it or doing it just for the attention" become the worse possible thing a person can do?
Especially funny in this thread when we are talking about people putting up a “humble” statue of someone to just get attention!
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Old 10th June 2020, 11:49 AM   #280
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Originally Posted by ponderingturtle View Post
So you stand with king Leopold I see. Totally wrong to remove his statue not matter how much of a monster he was.


Keep being you, pt.
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