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Tags transgender incidents , transgender issues , transgender rights

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Old 24th June 2020, 03:03 PM   #361
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Not all humans are born with two legs, so it's a fallacy to say we're a bipedal species. Rather, we exist on a spectrum of pedalness .
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Old 24th June 2020, 03:07 PM   #362
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Originally Posted by Arcade22 View Post
Given that they ultimately derive from the same organ, and since there are more than enough intersex variations of genitals, you can't maintain that kind of dichotomy.
Lungs and feet ultimately derive from the same stem cells... and mosaics and reabsorbed twins are thing, so I guess we can't maintain a dichotomy between lungs and feet either...

On a more serious note... a clitoris isn't attached to a vas deferns. Females do not pee out of their clitorises.
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Old 24th June 2020, 03:08 PM   #363
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Originally Posted by Emily's Cat View Post
Now you're talking! Cis-het sex slaves ftw!

Honestly, though, I don't think anyone wants to keep straight cis-men quarantined. At least nobody in this thread. Please don't mistake my bits of rant as being somehow anti-men. I'm a feminist who happens to love dudes, and who also thinks there's a lot in my society that is patently unfair to men as well.
Joe has been very vocal, in this thread and others, about how unfair it is that cis-males are all seen as being dangerous, or predatory, or variations thereof.


I get what he's saying, but I think he's exaggerating the problem. It's an old controversy. I remember talking about it back in college, during Jimmy Carter's presidency.
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Old 24th June 2020, 03:11 PM   #364
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Originally Posted by Joe Random View Post
Not all humans are born with two legs, so it's a fallacy to say we're a bipedal species. Rather, we exist on a spectrum of pedalness .
This is high quality snark.

Lawyers have a well-known maxim on point.

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Old 24th June 2020, 03:11 PM   #365
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Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
I think I've made my point clear enough, but this continued hijack serves no purpose.

I am uncomfortable with how easily straight cis-men are seen as inherently predatory, nothing more, nothing less

We'll just have to leave it at that.
I'm uncomfortable with it too, if that's any solace. And it's not "straight cis-men"... it's "men and people that look like men". And it's not a constant thing, it's not like I (or most women for that matter) think that all men are scary predators - far from it. It's an unfortunate reality that man are bigger, stronger, and more aggressive... and have the plumbing for rape. Whether that's something innate to men biologically or whether it's a reflection of social conditioning of some sort, I don't know. I'd certainly prefer it to be the latter, because that makes it much more likely to evolve as our social norms evolve.
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Old 24th June 2020, 03:14 PM   #366
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Originally Posted by Giordano View Post
I am proposing that what we think is based on the physical set up and chemistry of our brains. And that the specific thoughts people have when thinking of themselves as one gender or the other are based on these physical and chemical processes. What other possibly is there, a consciousness based on an incorporeal “mind?”

Obviously if I believe a cis male can think of themselves as female I am not proposing that males and females are born with different brains.
What do you think is the difference here? You say that you're not proposing that males and females have different brains... but you do propose that they have a different physical set up and chemistry? What is the distinction there?
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Old 24th June 2020, 03:20 PM   #367
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Originally Posted by d4m10n View Post
I've often wondered about this myself. The best answer I've heard so far is basically a list of symptoms, but then again most cis women and cis men don't have any of these.
I dunno. As a kid my favorite toys were lincoln logs, legos, tinker toys, and match box cars. An occassional barbie doll to go with my Michael Jackson "action figure". And books. Lots of books. And I preferred playing with boys because they did things like climb trees and pretend to be indians and almost set the bleachers on fire by building a "campfire". I detest pink. I find vulva and vaginas to be frighteningly disgusting things, and would much rather look at a nice penis any day of the week. I hate shaving my legs and armpits, and I will wear pants unless I am required to wear a dress for strong social convention. I am firmly of the opinion that this whole "being a girl" thing is patent ******** and I want my money back.

All of my complaints are rooted in social gender roles and behavioral expectations for women as compared to boys.

Except for my dislike of menstruation. That's all about the cramps and the sore boobs.
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Old 24th June 2020, 03:22 PM   #368
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Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
Sticking with the normal situation of XX vs XY chromosomes (ie, no chromosomal anomalies, no defective or misplaced genes), a chimeric person could have brain cells with XX but the rest of the body being XY. I am describing that as a female brain in a male body.
I can buy that.

Do you think there's any meaningful or material differentiation due to that?
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Old 24th June 2020, 03:31 PM   #369
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Originally Posted by Meadmaker View Post
Joe has been very vocal, in this thread and others, about how unfair it is that cis-males are all seen as being dangerous, or predatory, or variations thereof.
He's not wrong though. I wouldn't like it either were I a man. It's not fair and it probably sucks donkey balls for all the good guys out there.

As an actual tie-in to this topic... A while back I was reading some of the experiences of transpeople. There was one by a transman that was kind of heart-breaking. After he transitioned, he was walking home one evening behind a woman. She kept glancing over her shoulder, and she started speeding up. He was appalled and devastated to realize it was because he was a man and they were alone on a fairly isolated street. He had always been the vulnerable one prior to that, and having grown up with that reality, still thought of himself as the vulnerable one. He hadn't until that moment realized that to the rest of the world, he was now the dangerous one in that equation.

There was a similar story from a transman coming to grips with how he was expected to interact with children. He could no longer watch a toddler play without being viewed as a creep. He couldn't really speak to or touch someone else's child. Simply because he was a man.

Those kinds of gender stereotypes, those kinds of learned responses... they're harmful. Women aren't the only ones who get screwed over by socially defined gender roles.
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Old 24th June 2020, 03:42 PM   #370
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Originally Posted by Giordano View Post
Are XYs without sperm females by the definitions given upthread?
If an individual was not born with oocytes then they are quite probably male. Other considerations may be in play, though.

Originally Posted by Giordano View Post
Are XXs without ova males?
Which particular syndrome have you in mind here?

Originally Posted by Giordano View Post
Do you agree or disagree with having sperm or ova being the sole criterion to define sex? My argument is that it is not.
I'd say that people born with ova are female, people who produce sperm are male, and people who never carry either ova nor sperm (a tiny fraction of the population) need to be sorted based on other criteria, if they need be sorted all.

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Old 24th June 2020, 03:45 PM   #371
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Originally Posted by Emily's Cat View Post
I genuinely can't tell what you're poking fun at with this. Are you poking fun at disabled people? People with dwarfism and similar disorders? Females?
What is with people quoting a post to argue with it, but not reading the quoted post in that quoted post? Is there a movement of people who identify as not reading the whole thing?
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Old 24th June 2020, 03:52 PM   #372
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Originally Posted by Emily's Cat View Post
He's not wrong though. I wouldn't like it either were I a man. It's not fair and it probably sucks donkey balls for all the good guys out there.
It has never bothered me.

I think, for the most part, it's easy enough to prevent problems by following social conventions. Those are sort of the way that you signal "Not dangerous!"

If a woman tries to avoid me in the "walking alone at night" scenario, I just figure she's practicing common sense. If we are far enough away that we are not interacting, there's no real issue to me. If we are interacting, I can usually wave, or say something that signals "Not dangerous!"

As for the kid thing, I've just never encountered it as a problem. I probably have some pretty stereotypical male interactions with toddlers, though. i.e. I try not to interact with toddlers.

I do remember one time when I had to make sure that the parents understood I was not a creep. i was about 25. There was an eleven year old girl who was interested in me. I had to make sure to catch her mother's attention so that mom understood that I was not a pedophile and I was amused by her daughter's attentions, but not actually enjoying them. I didn't feel offended that she might think me a predator. I thought it kind of natural, and felt the onus was on me to assure her I was not. We were at a campground, and I had to make sure that there was never anything that could be viewed as suspicious.
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Old 24th June 2020, 03:56 PM   #373
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Originally Posted by Joe Random View Post
Not all humans are born with two legs, so it's a fallacy to say we're a bipedal species. Rather, we exist on a spectrum of pedalness .
More to the point about definitions, we are part of the tetrapod class of animals. But one person losing a limb does not make them suddenly not a tetrapod, nor does being born with only three limbs. Just because the definition is a certain way doesn't mean one can lawyer themselves out of it. As usual definitions are assumed to be understood by reasonable minds.
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Old 24th June 2020, 04:00 PM   #374
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Originally Posted by TragicMonkey View Post
What is with people quoting a post to argue with it, but not reading the quoted post in that quoted post? Is there a movement of people who identify as not reading the whole thing?
I read it... I am just confused by it. I usually get your humor better than this.
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Old 24th June 2020, 04:02 PM   #375
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Originally Posted by Emily's Cat View Post
All of my complaints are rooted in social gender roles and behavioral expectations for women as compared to boys.
Are women socially conditioned to find their own vulvae "to be frighteningly disgusting things" these days? If so, that's awful. You should be encouraged to play with yourselves like the rest of us.
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Old 24th June 2020, 04:15 PM   #376
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Originally Posted by Emily's Cat View Post
On a more serious note... a clitoris isn't attached to a vas deferns. Females do not pee out of their clitorises.
Actually, due to how sexual differentiation in humans works Females can actually have functional penises that are not just capable of urination but also penetrative intercourse.

You should read up on intersex conditions before you make a fool out of yourself.
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Old 24th June 2020, 04:20 PM   #377
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Originally Posted by d4m10n View Post
Are women socially conditioned to find their own vulvae "to be frighteningly disgusting things" these days? If so, that's awful. You should be encouraged to play with yourselves like the rest of us.
Fair point on that one. I don't think that's social conditioning. That's much more likely a result of me being quite heterosexual and not thinking that penises are innately scary all by themselves.

And don't get me wrong - I like how it feels... I just don't want to look at other women's vijayjays. They're... icky looking. It's that whole feeding a bulldog mayonnaise thing going on down there...
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Old 24th June 2020, 04:21 PM   #378
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Originally Posted by Arcade22 View Post
Actually, due to how sexual differentiation in humans works Females can actually have functional penises that are not just capable of urination but also penetrative intercourse.

You should read up on intersex conditions before you make a fool out of yourself.
Okay... and at that point, is it a clitoris? Or is it, as you term it, a penis?

ETA: Are we really genuinely at the point in the discussion where a couple of people are going to argue that there's no distinction between a penis and a clitoris? That they're the same thing and we're incapable of telling the difference between them?

I'd like to take a moment to remind you guys of the spectrum fallacy (aka heap fallacy if memory serves). I'll also point out that while light, as a whole, exists on a spectrum, it's remarkably easy to determine whether a given wavelength is blue or red.
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Old 24th June 2020, 04:41 PM   #379
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Originally Posted by Emily's Cat View Post
I can buy that.

Do you think there's any meaningful or material differentiation due to that?
I don’t know if there is, but there might be. I think it’s worth investigating, because if there is, we could learn a lot from such cases.
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Old 24th June 2020, 04:45 PM   #380
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Originally Posted by Joe Random View Post
Not all humans are born with two legs, so it's a fallacy to say we're a bipedal species. Rather, we exist on a spectrum of pedalness .
Which reminds me of my favorite grammar error in a movie title: “Eight Legged Freaks”. The movie is about giant spiders. But as written, without a hyphen between the first two words, the title actually means eight freaks who have some unspecified number of legs.
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Old 24th June 2020, 05:00 PM   #381
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Originally Posted by Emily's Cat View Post
It's that whole feeding a bulldog mayonnaise thing going on down there...
A good friend of mine has a bulldog named "Dumbledog" and now I must feed that dog mayo in the name of science.

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Old 24th June 2020, 05:02 PM   #382
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Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
Which reminds me of my favorite grammar error in a movie title: “Eight Legged Freaks”. The movie is about giant spiders. But as written, without a hyphen between the first two words, the title actually means eight freaks who have some unspecified number of legs.
So...basically The Pietasters.

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Old 24th June 2020, 05:16 PM   #383
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Originally Posted by Emily's Cat View Post
I'd be a lot more sanguine if someone could explain to me what a male-bodied person who has the lived experience of a man actually means when they say they "feel like a woman", and how the f--- they know what the hell a woman "feels like" in the first place.
They've read books.

But not ones by J K Rowling.
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Old 24th June 2020, 08:25 PM   #384
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Originally Posted by Emily's Cat View Post
Okay... and at that point, is it a clitoris? Or is it, as you term it, a penis?

ETA: Are we really genuinely at the point in the discussion where a couple of people are going to argue that there's no distinction between a penis and a clitoris? That they're the same thing and we're incapable of telling the difference between them?

I'd like to take a moment to remind you guys of the spectrum fallacy (aka heap fallacy if memory serves). I'll also point out that while light, as a whole, exists on a spectrum, it's remarkably easy to determine whether a given wavelength is blue or red.
Wow. The whole point is that there is no one point when “it” goes from being a clitoris to a penis. It is a continuum, which is why I am surprised some posters here insist it must be one or another. Yes, most often the result is much more to one side of the spectrum or the other. But is is not strictly binary. It is analog.

Your metaphor about light and colors is actually problematic for the same reason.. It is not remarkably easy to determine when something perceived as blue becomes perceived of as red. This is why there is the term magenta. But look at a color wheel in PowerPoint, etc. As you slide the mouse there are infinite colors (well, within the bites available) between blue and red within and beyond magenta for which I don’t even have names and for which I wouldn’t define as blue or red.

Different cultures perceive the transitions between different colors differently. There is a thread on this somewhere on ISF.
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Old 24th June 2020, 08:48 PM   #385
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Originally Posted by Emily's Cat View Post
What do you think is the difference here? You say that you're not proposing that males and females have different brains... but you do propose that they have a different physical set up and chemistry? What is the distinction there?
I am saying that different thoughts are caused by different neural activities in any one brain. Therefore people who think one idea have different thoughts and different neural activities than people who have other ideas.

Do women who like to cook have different brain activities than men who like to watch football? Yes. But so do women who like to cook have different brain activities from women who like watching football.

Are women’s brains inherently different from men’s in some ways? I don't know.
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Old 25th June 2020, 01:55 AM   #386
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Originally Posted by Belz... View Post
That doesn't follow.



Because public restrooms are segregated by sex! If you are arguing in favour of unisex restrooms, then sure, it's not important.



What if they do care?



It has nothing to do with rights. Why do I have to deal now with a version of you that seems to be confused by the basic realities of human existence?

The whole discussion stems from trans-women competing in women's sports. If you are arguing that sex categorisation shouldn't be a thing, then there shouldn't be women's sports at all, should there? Great, now 50% of the athlete population can't compete.



Yeah I was responding to another poster. I even put his name there. What's ironic about it?
Would you mind answering my points, Giordano?
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Old 25th June 2020, 02:49 AM   #387
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Originally Posted by d4m10n View Post
Are you open to the possibility that "philosophical belief" has a colloquial meaning that an author might reasonably expect laypeople to take from it when they encounter the phrase?
You're asking this after I've repeatedly said that I accept the possibility that her equivocation is the result of ignorance rather than malice. I am forced once again to request that if you're going to reply to my posts that you first take the trouble to read them.
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Old 25th June 2020, 02:59 AM   #388
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Originally Posted by d4m10n View Post
The first three examples were awful, it's not incumbent upon me to review the entire thread one by one.
You've not demonstrated the former. And as for the latter, no it's not. You're free to hand-wave away whatever you want in order to pretend it doesn't exist. It depends on how interested you are in actually casting a critical eye over this whole debacle, vs. simply accepting without question in order to reinforce your already-held beliefs - or even contorting yourself hugely in order to try to massage Rowling's words into something you can justify so you can avoid having to actually think about them.
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Old 25th June 2020, 03:36 AM   #389
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WRT brains, there are a few studies that show results like this one. The TL/DR version is that adolescent trans boys and girls were given MRIs while stimuli that are known to induce gender-specific activity in people's brains were introduced. What was observed was that the brains of the transgender youths displayed characteristics that were more like the gender they believed themselves to be than the one they were assigned at birth.

This is another study that did something similar, and which had similar results.

There is not enough research in this field yet to draw any conclusions, and some of the research is confusing or contradictory (as is the case in anything that is under-researched), but there are certainly indications that there is a biological, brain-based basis for how transgender people perceive themselves.
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Old 25th June 2020, 04:29 AM   #390
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Originally Posted by Squeegee Beckenheim View Post
You're asking this after I've repeatedly said that I accept the possibility that her equivocation is the result of ignorance rather than malice. I am forced once again to request that if you're going to reply to my posts that you first take the trouble to read them.
Reasonable expectations aren't the same as ignorance. If you're going to reply to my posts, you should at least read them for the sake of comprehension.

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Old 25th June 2020, 05:51 AM   #391
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Originally Posted by Squeegee Beckenheim View Post
WRT brains, there are a few studies that show results like this one. The TL/DR version is that adolescent trans boys and girls were given MRIs while stimuli that are known to induce gender-specific activity in people's brains were introduced. What was observed was that the brains of the transgender youths displayed characteristics that were more like the gender they believed themselves to be than the one they were assigned at birth.
This seems to reinforce the idea that there are, in fact, differences between men and women, and that we are, in fact, dealing with a binary.
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Old 25th June 2020, 06:12 AM   #392
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Originally Posted by Belz... View Post
This seems to reinforce the idea that there are, in fact, differences between men and women, and that we are, in fact, dealing with a binary.
I don't think it's logically necessary that the existence of differences requires binary-ness. There is a difference between romance and comedy and yet romantic comedies exist.
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Old 25th June 2020, 06:44 AM   #393
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Originally Posted by Emily's Cat View Post
This is silly.

Can you define "human" in a way that is unequivocal, clear, and includes every human being on the planet?
This is an odd request. I've never claimed that there is a strict demarcation between "human" and "not-human". In fact I've spoken many times, including on this board, about how the idea that "species" is a strict, rigid category with sharp dividing lines between them is a fundamental misunderstanding of evolutionary biology. Reality is more messy and complicated than that.

It usually is. Which is why statements such as that male and female are determined by which gametes you produce are ill-advised. It's not quite that simple.
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Old 25th June 2020, 06:52 AM   #394
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Originally Posted by d4m10n View Post
Reasonable expectations aren't the same as ignorance.
Yes, I've also several times conceded the possibility that she knew full well what she was saying, and her equivocation was deliberate. Which is what you're saying here - that she used the term understanding what it meant in the legal sense, but intended for her readers to take a different meaning away.

That still doesn't make it not equivocation. Either she was using a legal term to refer to a legal ruling heavily reliant on that term to mean something other than its legal definition because she didn't understand what she was doing, or because she did. Either way, she's using a legal term to refer to a legal ruling heavily reliant on that term to mean something other than its legal definition, which is equivocation.

You just keep arguing back and forth about whether it was due to ignorance or malice. Well, now that you've stopped arguing that it isn't a legal term, anyway.
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Old 25th June 2020, 07:00 AM   #395
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Originally Posted by Giordano View Post
Wow. The whole point is that there is no one point when “it” goes from being a clitoris to a penis.
No the whole point is 99.99% of the population when shown 99.99% of clitorises and penis don't have any problem immediately figuring out which one it is.

Again you're pointing at the platypus trying to prove that all mammals lay eggs.
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Old 25th June 2020, 07:08 AM   #396
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If we've looped back to "Men and women are wired differently in the brain" that's fine. If that's what the evidence says, that's what the evidence says. I'll pretend that wasn't a sexist thing to say a few years back since it has been retconned apparently.

But ironically the only context in which championed is transgenderism, not gender relations.

I'd wager if we start going "Oh no women can't do this, job, they just aren't wired for it" the feminist claws would come out from a lot of people despite that being equally valid.

I keep coming back to this and it has never been addressed. You can't have meaningful differences between cis and trans people without having meaningful differences between the sexes and people seem to be demanding we acknowledge the former while either not addressing or at best playing vague "Okay but don't bring it up again" lip service to the later.

But that's not what people want. They want trans-people to be able to subvert gender rules that don't want to actually exist.

I also notice people run full speed to get to "Well there's obviously a difference, you can't deny it!" and then start dragging feet hard when we try to clarify what any of those differences are.
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Old 25th June 2020, 07:12 AM   #397
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Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
No the whole point is 99.99% of the population when shown 99.99% of clitorises and penis don't have any problem immediately figuring out which one it is.

Again you're pointing at the platypus trying to prove that all mammals lay eggs.
Moreover, the actual debates of how people ought to be treated in society concern, in almost every case, people whose reproductive anatomy is clear and obvious.

Some of the discussion about non-binary sexuality and intersexed conditions is illuminating, but when someone who is clearly possessed of male reproductive anatomy and male physique is attempting to register as a girl for the track meet, or enter the women's locker room, the existence of a hard to classify individual isn't all that relevant. That particular penis is rather obviously a penis, and the girls in the locker room would prefer that it go elsewhere.
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Old 25th June 2020, 07:23 AM   #398
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The existences of rare edge cases does not turn an dichotomy into a spectrum.

Height is a spectrum because heights vary widely across the general population.

If 49.99% of the population was 5'3" or and 49.99% of the population was 7'10" and everyone between the heights of 5'4" and 7'9", 5'2" or less, and 7'11" or more made up only a tiny fraction of the population and they all had legit medical conditions that caused them to not fall into the 5'3" or 7'10" categories height would not be a spectrum, it would be a dichotomy with very rare anomalies.
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Old 25th June 2020, 07:48 AM   #399
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Originally Posted by Belz... View Post
Would you mind answering my points, Giordano?
Probably I will mind because this is more complicated than what were the more straightforward ideas I presented that already led to a distracting debate. But I’ll start with public restrooms.

First I believe they should all be unisex: separate rooms for each person or at least adequately partitioned cubicles. Everyone should have privacy from everyone else. I’ve seen this even in poor countries. Don’t most women’s rooms already have this in the USA?

Second, as to what we already have. Most trans individuals heterosexuals are sincere and are not interested in peeking at the genitals of others of their trans gender. Just by numbers in the overall population there are likely many more gay and lesbian cis people who might have a theoretical interest in other cis people’s genitals than there are gay and lesbian trans people. Yet we don’t segregate trans gay people.

Plus even in men’s restrooms with unpartitioned urinals there is not much to see without making an obvious spectacle of oneself. Less so still for cubicles. Being a peeping Tom is still illegal. So I don’t see any real problem even if some cis people pretend to be trans just to get into a restroom to try to peek.

The threat of assault is a little more complicated but I don’t see it as unique to trans people. Cis gays use the cis restrooms; aren’t the current laws inadequate to prevent assaults in these more numerous population situations? Shouldn’t they be? Note I am not saying gay or lesbian people are more likely to assault people, just that there are more of them in the total cis population than gay or lesbian trans people. Is it a problem? Most restrooms are either occupied enough to prevent assaults or are so isolated anyone can wait for the right moment and slip in from outside, whatever their gender. Anyone willing to commit rape is willing to take the more minor risk of being found in the wrong bathroom under some current laws.

Finally how can one enforce a prohibition of trans people using only their birth sex restrooms? Does one ask each person entering a public restroom to strip before a bathroom cop? Do we challenge people based on how masculine their face appears?

BTW isn’t it as awful for person to be forced to use a shared birth sex restroom both in terms of embarrassment and potential assault?
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Old 25th June 2020, 08:01 AM   #400
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Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
If we've looped back to "Men and women are wired differently in the brain" that's fine. If that's what the evidence says, that's what the evidence says. I'll pretend that wasn't a sexist thing to say a few years back since it has been retconned apparently.

But ironically the only context in which championed is transgenderism, not gender relations.

I'd wager if we start going "Oh no women can't do this, job, they just aren't wired for it" the feminist claws would come out from a lot of people despite that being equally valid.
You're making a lot of unwarranted assumptions, here, including that differences are between individuals, as opposed to on average between groups*, and that differences in brain structure and response necessarily leads to a significant difference in behaviour.

It's entirely possible for there to be biological differences between the sexes and for it to be sexist to discriminate on this basis in the vast majority of circumstances. For example, cis men, on average, have greater strength than cis women. This is partially down to the differences in anatomy, and partly down to the differences in testosterone levels (again, both on average). This does not mean that it's not sexist to say that women can't work as labourers.

To go in the opposite direction, most cis women of a certain age can lactate under the right conditions, and most cis men cannot. This doesn't mean that it's not sexist to say that men cannot care for children. Although it wouldn't be sexist to say that non-lactating men cannot care for babies without access to appropriate external sources of nutrition.

*Like the differences in height between the sexes, for example. Cis men are taller than cis women, on average, but that doesn't imply that if you picked any cis man at random and any cis woman at random that she would be likely to be shorter than he is.
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