Continuation The all-new "US Politics and coronavirus" thread pt. 2

[Skeptic Ginger]

In the meantime Trump tells people open the schools or else and DeVos denies the CDC guidelines are what they are.

[Trebuchet]

Originally Posted by newyorkguy

On Friday Texas Gov. Greg Abbott warned Texans that if people continue to ignore his statewide mandate that makes wearing a face mask mandatory, the next step could be locking the state down again. NBC News reported, "His plea to Texans comes as nearly 80 Texas counties have opted out of the order , while others are refusing to enforce it." New cases, hospitalizations and deaths are at all-time highs in the Lone Star State.

New cases dipped slightly on Friday -- the day Gov. Abbott spoke on three different Texas TV stations -- but rose Saturday to a new one day high of 10,351 cases.

10,351? Hah, that's nothing! More than 15,000 in Florida today!

[Aridas]

Originally Posted by newyorkguy

On Friday Texas Gov. Greg Abbott warned Texans that if people continue to ignore his statewide mandate that makes wearing a face mask mandatory, the next step could be locking the state down again. NBC News reported, "His plea to Texans comes as nearly 80 Texas counties have opted out of the order , while others are refusing to enforce it." New cases, hospitalizations and deaths are at all-time highs in the Lone Star State.

New cases dipped slightly on Friday -- the day Gov. Abbott spoke on three different Texas TV stations -- but rose Saturday to a new one day high of 10,351 cases.

Shocking. Nobody could have seen this coming a mile away, no sir.

[Bob001]

Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger

In the meantime Trump tells people open the schools or else and DeVos denies the CDC guidelines are what they are.

In all her public remarks, DeVos appears to be just plain stupid. She one of those people who, if they weren't born rich, would be picking up trash in the Walmart parking lot because they aren't smart enough to be greeters.

[Bob001]

Originally Posted by Minoosh

Saw a great mask yesterday. It said VOTE! on a rainbow background.

I'll ask the lady if it's commercially available. She said her sister sent it.

I'm sometimes amazed at what turns up on Etsy.
https://www.etsy.com/search?q=face%20mask%20vote

[Stacyhs]

Originally Posted by newyorkguy

On Friday Texas Gov. Greg Abbott warned Texans that if people continue to ignore his statewide mandate that makes wearing a face mask mandatory, the next step could be locking the state down again. NBC News reported, "His plea to Texans comes as nearly 80 Texas counties have opted out of the order , while others are refusing to enforce it." New cases, hospitalizations and deaths are at all-time highs in the Lone Star State.

New cases dipped slightly on Friday -- the day Gov. Abbott spoke on three different Texas TV stations -- but rose Saturday to a new one day high of 10,351 cases.

What was that I'm not supposed to say? Oh, yeah.....and they don't understand why I think they're stupid.

[Skeptic Ginger]

Originally Posted by Bob001

I'm sometimes amazed at what turns up on Etsy.
https://www.etsy.com/search?q=face%20mask%20vote

Why does that surprise you?

[thaiboxerken]

Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger

Why does that surprise you?

I find it interesting that I see more masks that ask people to vote blue or vote Trump out than of any MAGA voting masks.

[Meadmaker]

Originally Posted by newyorkguy

On Friday Texas Gov. Greg Abbott warned Texans that if people continue to ignore his statewide mandate that makes wearing a face mask mandatory, the next step could be locking the state down again. NBC News reported, "His plea to Texans comes as nearly 80 Texas counties have opted out of the order , while others are refusing to enforce it." New cases, hospitalizations and deaths are at all-time highs in the Lone Star State.

New cases dipped slightly on Friday -- the day Gov. Abbott spoke on three different Texas TV stations -- but rose Saturday to a new one day high of 10,351 cases.

In the "better late than never" category, kudos to him for speaking the truth, despite it being politically unpopular.

I would sure like to see the pro-mask message being sent from all leaders, starting at the top.



And why the hell can I not buy an 95 mask at the local hardware store? They sold out in February. They're still sold out. Is the industrial might of the United States so feeble that it was impossible to ramp up production? WTF?

Are we great again yet?

[newyorkguy]

The problem with Gov. Greg Abbott is, he was one of the leading advocates in reopening Texas quickly. As you can see by the chart below, from April into May cases in Texas were relatively low and had plateaued. Abbott took that to mean the crisis was over and it was time to get back to business. But he was warned at the time by public health officials -- including his own state officials -- that the virus did not transmit all across the United States at the same time, that the peak in Texas might still be some weeks off. Abbott ignored that. He pushed to reopen as quickly as possible, including bars. Now even Abbott concedes that was a mistake. After reopening, local officials complained Abbott would not back them up -- that he undermined them -- when they tried to enforce the few restrictions Abbott had left in place. One law enforcement official complained publicly that the governor had played politics with the pandemic "straight through."

The chart below shows how cases have spiraled. Deaths have increased too. Gov. Abbott's actions have directly resulted in people being infected and killed by the virus in numbers that could have been avoided. He bears responsibility for a lot of the sickness and death, but I'm sure he won't take responsibility.

Eighty Texas counties are refusing to honor Abbott's order making face masks mandatory? Abbott helped create the political climate that makes that possible.

I think he's done a terrible job.

[Meadmaker]

Originally Posted by newyorkguy

I think he's done a terrible job.

No doubt about it.

But, let's at least give credit where credit is due. He seems to have realized his mistake.

I wish that the same could be said for at least one other politician who has done a terrible job.

[Beelzebuddy]

Originally Posted by Meadmaker

And why the hell can I not buy an 95 mask at the local hardware store? They sold out in February. They're still sold out. Is the industrial might of the United States so feeble that it was impossible to ramp up production? WTF?

Are we great again yet?

The doctors and nurses who care for the sick jerks need them more than we do. They're probably ramping up production, but definitely ramping up sick jerks.

[Delphic Oracle]

Originally Posted by Meadmaker

In the "better late than never" category, kudos to him for speaking the truth, despite it being politically unpopular.



I would sure like to see the pro-mask message being sent from all leaders, starting at the top.







And why the hell can I not buy an 95 mask at the local hardware store? They sold out in February. They're still sold out. Is the industrial might of the United States so feeble that it was impossible to ramp up production? WTF?



Are we great again yet?

My company redirects a lot of PPE to health work organizations at the regional distribution centers. Anything that slips by gets set aside and we find a local organization to donate it to. Only a few varieties of gloves and bulk packs of surgical masks make it to the shelf.

Most n95s are not appropriate for situations of going out in public where social distancing is not possible as they do not filter exhalation. They are for a healthy person going into a contaminated setting. I have a friend who was in TX during first wave disinfecting retirement dorms. Tests every morning and evening, geared up to the max.

I feel awful for demolition crews, painters, mold treatment people, etc. right now.

[Myriad]

Originally Posted by newyorkguy

On Friday Texas Gov. Greg Abbott warned Texans that if people continue to ignore his statewide mandate that makes wearing a face mask mandatory, the next step could be locking the state down again. NBC News reported, "His plea to Texans comes as nearly 80 Texas counties have opted out of the order , while others are refusing to enforce it." New cases, hospitalizations and deaths are at all-time highs in the Lone Star State.

I would imagine that most of the opt-out counties are regions that currently have relatively few active cases. If the pattern already played out in many other states holds true, their decision probably won't have much effect on the peak cases in the state, for which the largest population centers predominate. But what it will do is stretch out the plateau or the initial slow decline following the peak, as the "wave" propagates (with delays) through smaller cities and towns in the opt-out regions. Five weeks from now, when new cases in Houston and Dallas are significantly reduced, some of those counties will be reaching their own peaks, keeping the state totals high, just as it's time to start the school year.

[Meadmaker]

Originally Posted by Beelzebuddy

The doctors and nurses who care for the sick jerks need them more than we do. They're probably ramping up production, but definitely ramping up sick jerks.

And that made sense, in March, but the fact that they are still sold out in July is a real failure at the top.

It's just disgusting. How do you stop a pandemic when you aren't taking the measures to stop virus transmission? If Trump wants the economy moving, couldn't he have subsidized mask production? Hire lots of workers to build and operate mask production machines. It's just dumb as hell.

Meanwhile, I just got news that the robotics team I mentor won't be competing this year It seems the school district laid off science teachers due to budget cuts forced by the pandemic, and that included our coach. We can't control the pandemic, so we're cutting science education. That's the way to make America great again, for sure.

There are volunteers who could do the robotics job, but the school district can't allow that for liability concerns. America....what a country.

[The Don]

Originally Posted by Meadmaker

And that made sense, in March, but the fact that they are still sold out in July is a real failure at the top.

It's just disgusting. How do you stop a pandemic when you aren't taking the measures to stop virus transmission? If Trump wants the economy moving, couldn't he have subsidized mask production? Hire lots of workers to build and operate mask production machines. It's just dumb as hell.

In a free market economy, the market decides. It would seem that companies which make masks don't currently consider it worth their while to expand production because they cannot make money in the short-term or they don't see it as a long-term proposition.

Sure President Trump could have subsidised mask production but that's a few steps down the slippery slope to a command economy and communism.

In any case, President Trump's Damascene conversion to masks only happened very recently. Before that he wouldn't have seen any reason to expand production because they weren't necessary.

[Trebuchet]

Congratulations, Florida, on 15,300 cases in one day! On a Sunday! What are you going to do next?
We're reopening Disney World! Oh, and holding a Republican Convention. That ought to go well.

[The Don]

Originally Posted by Trebuchet

Congratulations, Florida, on 15,300 cases in one day! On a Sunday! What are you going to do next?
We're reopening Disney World! Oh, and holding a Republican Convention. That ought to go well.

Don't worry, it'll disappear like (the) magic (kingdom) in April

[The Don]

Originally Posted by Myriad

I would imagine that most of the opt-out counties are regions that currently have relatively few active cases.

My sister in law lives in Montana near the Glacier National Park. Initially they had effective distancing measures in place but because they had few cases - likely due to their relative isolation - those restrictions have been largely removed.

Roll on tourist season and the number of cases is starting to grow. The locals are blaming the tourists for bringing in infection but seem not to recognise that the reason why the tourists have been able to bring in the infection (if indeed this has been the transmission vector, those hospitalised have been local, not tourists so far) is because locals have allowed them to do so.

I see the same thing playing out across the US. A slow wave of infection spreading across rural areas but instead of examining their own behaviour or rules, the rural populace will blame outsiders for bringing in the disease and not learn from the experience.

[Belz...]

Originally Posted by Resume

I can most certainly say the the phony pulled-from-his-ass 99 percent is complete ******** as we are only just discovering disturbing new health problems resulting from only mild cases of this virus.

The latter part is true but let's go with the lowest estimates:

Up to 90% of infectees are not reported or detected. If that's true, then it is most likely because of absence of symptoms or mild symptons. Of those known to be infected, up to 85%, from one source, have no symptoms or mild symptoms still. That's 98.5%, which rounds up nicely to 99%. I know Trump uses hyperbole, superlatives and shorthand for a lot of stuff, but, assuming those numbers are correct (they probably aren't), his estimate isn't off the mark.

Look I hate the ****** too, but he's not _always_ wrong. Close, but not always.

[lomiller]

Originally Posted by The Don

In a free market economy, the market decides. It would seem that companies which make masks don't currently consider it worth their while to expand production because they cannot make money in the short-term or they don't see it as a long-term proposition.

Trump has been meddling in the market for all things COVID related since the beginning, and this includes controlling which States could get PPE and which could not.

[varwoche]

Chuck Woolery? Really? Maybe this is a vivid dream nightmare after all. Real life isn't this surreal.

[Resume]

Originally Posted by Belz...

The latter part is true but let's go with the lowest estimates:

Up to 90% of infectees are not reported or detected. If that's true, then it is most likely because of absence of symptoms or mild symptons.

We don't know what we we don't know about the long term health effects of this virus. Fauci said yesterday that he didn't know where Trump got his 99% percent "harmless" ********.

Quote:

A top US infectious disease expert has denied President Donald Trump's claim that 99% of coronavirus cases were "harmless," saying it is "obviously not" the case.

"I'm trying to figure out where the President got that number," Anthony Fauci, director of the National Institute of Allergy and Infectious Diseases, told the Financial Times Friday.

"What I think happened is that someone told him that the general mortality is about 1%. And he interpreted, therefore, that 99% is not a problem, when that’s obviously not the case," he explained.

The expert added that he last saw Trump on June 2 and has not personally briefed him in at least two months.

Last week, Trump downplayed a recent spike in virus cases in many US states by falsely claiming 99% of cases are "totally harmless," a claim not backed by evidence

Trump just pulled the BS percentage from his ass.

[newyorkguy]

California has decided to reimpose a shutdown because new cases of coronavirus are surging in the Golden State. Case numbers have been increasing since mid-June. Below are quotes from CBS News:

Quote:

California Governor Gavin Newsom on Monday ordered the closure of indoor businesses across the state, including restaurants, bars, wineries, movie theaters, zoos and museums as coronavirus cases continue to surge...Newsom also imposed more stringent restrictions in 30 counties, including Los Angeles, Napa, Orange, Riverside, Sacramento, San Bernardino, San Diego and Ventura. In those counties, gyms, places of worship, non-critical offices, personal care services, hair salons, barbershops and malls must close all indoor operations. CBS News

Newsom spoke to the press this afternoon:

Quote:

"This virus is not going away anytime soon," he said. "I hope all of us recognize that if we were still connected to some notion that somehow when it gets warm it's going to go away or somehow it's going to take summer months or weekends off, this virus has done neither."

In late April someone who lives in California posted an opinion here that the virus wouldn't be so bad in California because of the warm, sunny weather. That's obviously not working.

[slyjoe]

Originally Posted by newyorkguy

California has decided to reimpose a shutdown because new cases of coronavirus are surging in the Golden State. Case numbers have been increasing since mid-June. Below are quotes from CBS News:


Newsom spoke to the press this afternoon:


In late April someone who lives in California posted an opinion here that the virus wouldn't be so bad in California because of the warm, sunny weather. That's obviously not working.

Anybody in Arizona could have told you that wouldn't work. At least California is doing something. AZ is still sticking its fingers in its ears.

[The Don]

This is worrying:

Quote:

Dr Fauci also said he has not seen Mr Trump in person since 2 June and has not briefed him for the last two months.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-53392817

[Belz...]

Originally Posted by Resume

We don't know what we we don't know about the long term health effects of this virus.

Well, that's my point, really: we can only reach tentative conclusions about what we do know.

[Belz...]

Originally Posted by The Don

This is worrying:



https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-53392817

Trump doesn't need to be briefed; he knows more than any group of experts!

[The Don]

Originally Posted by newyorkguy

In late April someone who lives in California posted an opinion here that the virus wouldn't be so bad in California because of the warm, sunny weather. That's obviously not working.

As I understand it, the reason why people thought that warm sunny weather would slow down the spread of the virus was that, instead of being huddled together inside to avoid cold weather, people would be outside socially distanced .

There are a couple of flaws in that logic. Firstly, while somewhere like Wales has weather more conducive to being outside in summer, other places are too hot and sunny and people congregate inside in air-conditioned comfort. Secondly, people may be outside but they may not be social distancing. Instead they are meeting in large groups, consuming alcohol and behaving improperly.

[The Don]

Originally Posted by Belz...

Trump doesn't need to be briefed; he knows more than any group of experts!

Not only do I think that President Trump believes this to be true, the 40% of the US electorate who continue to approve of his Presidenting also believe this to be true.

This is very worrying indeed.

[Belz...]

Originally Posted by The Don

Not only do I think that President Trump believes this to be true, the 40% of the US electorate who continue to approve of his Presidenting also believe this to be true.

This is very worrying indeed.

Indeed. Seeing some of the responses to his Tweets, even allowing for bots and trolls, shows that the right have become so desperate as to surrender their individuality and cognitive abilities and outsource them to Trump.

[Meadmaker]

Originally Posted by The Don

As I understand it, the reason why people thought that warm sunny weather would slow down the spread of the virus was that, instead of being huddled together inside to avoid cold weather, people would be outside socially distanced .

There are a couple of flaws in that logic. Firstly, while somewhere like Wales has weather more conducive to being outside in summer, other places are too hot and sunny and people congregate inside in air-conditioned comfort. Secondly, people may be outside but they may not be social distancing. Instead they are meeting in large groups, consuming alcohol and behaving improperly.

I think it's simpler than that. They thought it would go down in summer because colds and flu typically goes down in summer, and this disease has some similarity with those.

It was not foolish to be optimistic. It was foolish to base policy around the assumption. As the saying goes, "Hope for the best. Prepare for the worst."

Unfortunately, the leader of the USA doesn't seem capable of preparing for anything. "Hope for the best. Ignore anything you don't like, or blame the Democrats, or whatever it takes as long as it doesn't involve actually taking responsibility."

[JeanTate]

Originally Posted by Belz...

The latter part is true but let's go with the lowest estimates:

Up to 90% of infectees are not reported or detected. If that's true, then it is most likely because of absence of symptoms or mild symptons. Of those known to be infected, up to 85%, from one source, have no symptoms or mild symptoms still. That's 98.5%, which rounds up nicely to 99%. I know Trump uses hyperbole, superlatives and shorthand for a lot of stuff, but, assuming those numbers are correct (they probably aren't), his estimate isn't off the mark.

Look I hate the ****** too, but he's not _always_ wrong. Close, but not always.

This is just as much nonsense as when AT posted it, in the SMM&T thread on Covid-19. And yes, we also have no idea how the “99%” was derived.

For example:

“if that’s true” ... well it’s not

“it is most likely because” .. really bad logic, and wildly inconsistent with what is well-established

IIRC, the results from detailed studies - e.g. Vò, Gangelt - clearly show just how nonsensical your imputed logic chain is. In the sense that opening a horse’s mouth and counting its teeth is more reliable than armchair pontificating.

[Belz...]

Originally Posted by JeanTate

This is just as much nonsense as when AT posted it, in the SMM&T thread on Covid-19. And yes, we also have no idea how the “99%” was derived.

For example:

“if that’s true” ... well it’s not

“it is most likely because” .. really bad logic, and wildly inconsistent with what is well-established

IIRC, the results from detailed studies - e.g. Vò, Gangelt - clearly show just how nonsensical your imputed logic chain is. In the sense that opening a horse’s mouth and counting its teeth is more reliable than armchair pontificating.

Sorry, who pissed in your cereals this morning?

The numbers I've quoted are estimates. Are you saying that the estimates are wrong? If so, could you provide updated ones? Otherwise what's the source of your ire?

[JeanTate]

Originally Posted by Belz...

Sorry, who pissed in your cereals this morning?

The numbers I've quoted are estimates.

a) source(s)?
b) you linked numbers with flawed logic.

And as Resume already noted, you have no evidence that Trump used any such estimates, or logic.

Quote:

Are you saying that the estimates are wrong?

What estimates?

Quote:

If so, could you provide updated ones? Otherwise what's the source of your ire?

Already did (go check the studies I mentioned).

Perhaps you may be referring to comments by the CDC head, at a recent press conference? If so, please re-read the official transcript ... (there are links, and more analyses, in the SMM&T thread).

Yeah, this is not the SMM&T board, but it’s still the ISF. Nonsense still needs to be called out for what it is.

[Belz...]

Originally Posted by JeanTate

a) source(s)?

Gee, I'd have to dig them up but they might be dated. I've already mentioned that.

Quote:

b) you linked numbers with flawed logic.

How so? Assume the numbers are correct for the sake of argument, ok? If 90% of cases aren't even reported, and 85% of the rest have mild symptoms, assuming no further complications, that's very close to 99%. The logic is sound. The only question is whether the numbers are.

Quote:

And as Resume already noted, you have no evidence that Trump used any such estimates, or logic.

No, I'd sooner think that Trump doesn't use evidence or logic. But that's irrelevant to what I said about his 99% being possibly accurate.

Quote:

What estimates?

Are you joking? The numbers I used!

Quote:

Already did (go check the studies I mentioned).

Which ones? This is a long thread.

[Resume]

Originally Posted by Belz...

Well, that's my point, really: we can only reach tentative conclusions about what we do know.

Yes, and what we do know is that Trump's claim that the COVID-19 virus is 99% harmless is pulled from his ass. As Fauci noted, that statement is "obviously not the case."

We do know that sometimes mildly symptomatic patients have health issues ranging from lung scarring to neurological issues, and even the asymptomatic can have lung problems akin to walking pneumonia. Some of these folks are walking around oblivious to these issues until they present and are confrirmed by health professionals. How many are there? We don't know, won't know for quite some time. We do know that these issues are not harmless as Trump claims, but resultant from contracting the virus, seemingly mildly or not at all. At first.

Trump's 99% "harmless" claim is wildly irresponsible, unevidenced, and in Fauci's words, "not the case."

[Belz...]

Originally Posted by Resume

Yes, and what we do know is that Trump's claim that the COVID-19 virus is 99% harmless is pulled from his ass. As Fauci noted, that statement is "obviously not the case."

We do know that sometimes mildly symptomatic patients have health issues ranging from lung scarring to neurological issues, and even the asymptomatic can have lung problems akin to walking pneumonia. Some of these folks are walking around oblivious to these issues until they present and are confrirmed by health professionals. How many are there? We don't know, won't know for quite some time. We do know that these issues are not harmless as Trump claims, but resultant from contracting the virus, seemingly mildly or not at all. At first.

Trump's 99% "harmless" claim is wildly irresponsible, unevidenced, and in Fauci's words, "not the case."

If we take 'harmless' to be literal, sure. But if we include mild symptoms and lack of complicstions as included in 'harmless', I'm not so sure.

[Resume]

Originally Posted by Belz...

If we take 'harmless' to be literal, sure. But if we include mild symptoms and lack of complicstions as included in 'harmless', I'm not so sure.

There are folks wandering around who had "mild" symptoms, recovered without doctors care, and have no idea they have collateral tissue and organ damage that have not presented, and won't know until they have a comprehensive check up.

[Belz...]

Originally Posted by Resume

There are folks wandering around who had "mild" symptoms, recovered without doctors care, and have no idea they have collateral tissue and organ damage that have not presented, and won't know until they have a comprehensive check up.

Well that's what I mean. As we learn more about the impacts of this virus the older estimates and facts are going to change. I was saying that Trump may be using outdated information... assuming he's using information to begin with.