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Old 29th June 2020, 11:21 PM   #201
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Hmm, only have random thoughts on the topic so I'll just spill them out. While I am sure a lot of cases of these happening are not as widely known, it would seem their overall numbers are relatively low. While the volume is low, the impact to those involved is large enough to garner fear in even well intention people. It will have a stifling of speech affect, both from those targeted and from allies that would otherwise speak up in support but won't for fear of expressing themselves in the wrong way or having their intent misunderstood. People will disagree on if that is a good trade off.

_______

White people seem to be targets that are allowed to be spoken of in ways that simply wouldn't be accepted if 'white' was switched with any other demographic. Guess we've been dishing it for a long while so excess right now really isn't something to worry about but it does seem like something that will eventually be needed to be reeled in at some point if division isn't the goal. It does beg the question whether such speech online would be held against a minority expressing it, and whether a double standard would be set between the two.

_______________

Feel like we are missing a redemption story for a racist. It seems like racist thought-crime has evolved to reach that upper echelon like pedophilia where the accused remains labeled with no redeeming deed sufficient to atone. We are encouraged to look to convicted felons as deserving of a second chance and re-entry into society at large after serving their time.

A racist can weather the repercussions of their actions but there doesn't seem to be an avenue to make amends to any sufficient level. This seems to pigeon hole these people into only occupying spaces with people that accept or share those thoughts. You can see the parallels with felons that inevitably go back to a life of crime when the larger society paints them as outcasts and treats them as such. We strive to change that for one(still unsuccessfully), but I think attempting to for both would be a better choice. Cancel culture would have their deed follow and harm them forever.
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Old 30th June 2020, 01:47 AM   #202
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Originally Posted by tyr_13 View Post
Yes it does. You literally argued that because people have claimed opposing opinions were dangerous in the past, that my assertion that claims should be evaluated on their individual merits was not reasonable. It only sounded reasonable.
Opps, made a compound error here. The specific objection Belz made was that because people have claimed opposing opinions were dangerous in the past that opinions now couldn't be causing harm, which requires that we not evaluate those claims on their own merits and instead lump them together. I should have made that connection explicit rather than skipping over the connection on the assumption it were obvious.

But that brings me too...

Originally Posted by Meadmaker View Post
Ok, so in the real world, a real seventeen year old girl had her college admission rescinded based on a real tweet, but hypothetically someone else could have said something different so.....uhhh......it's not important I suppose.

ETA: I think every single person who participates here would agree that there are things you could, theoretically, say in a tweet that can, and should, get you dismissed from a job, or a college, or whatever else might be deprived to you after whatever it was that you tweeted. However, in the actual cases where bad things have happened to real people after exposure on social media, a lot of us think that darned near all of them represent an overreaction and that the twitter mob really ought to back off. That's the real twitter mob, not the hypothetical one.
...which is funny because Belz does object to even my extreme hypotheticals.

Yeah, you'd think that people would agree, but just getting that hasn't been easy. Further, I already said earlier that I think her college dropping her was just. What she said was both stupid and vile, and as it violated her agreement with the college, they could drop her for such things. As silly as it can be, colleges sell themselves on being exclusive and on a purely marketing level letting such things slide hurts them, let alone the moral level they claim to care about.

As to your 'damn near all of them' being over-reactions, probably not. Well, let me qualify that by saying that threats are over-reactions and happen less with this than just say being a woman on the internet. Or just posting on the internet. That aspect aside, thinking they're almost all over reactions is probably a confirmation bias in that the over-reactions are memorable and your standards for what is an over-reaction are extremely loose judging by not just your stance here that a college has to let someone who falls short of their stated standards in because they were made aware of that shortcoming by people on Twitter, but by other interactions on several topics.

Are a lot of them over-reactions? Probably. Are a lot of them just groups who feel entitled to behave in ways that most other groups have never gotten away with finally finding they're no longer immune? Yeah. Other people are allowed to think badly of you for say, excusing slow public murder, and not associate with you because of it. Afraid there might be consequences for expressing things other people think are vile, and it might be unfair? Welcome to the club. You can go stand behind the LGBTQ community.
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Old 30th June 2020, 02:04 AM   #203
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Originally Posted by tyr_13 View Post
Yes it does. You literally argued that because people have claimed opposing opinions were dangerous in the past, that my assertion that claims should be evaluated on their individual merits was not reasonable.
Sorry, but "literally" doesn't mean "that's how I interpreted it at first and now refuse to reassess what I read". I never made such an argument.

Quote:
You don't appear to understand what the words you typed mean if you didn't mean that.
Irony.

Quote:
LOL, yeah, sure Zigg Belz. How about you try again without the handwave.
Pointing out that doctors don't become doctors on their own decision alone is not a handwave, it's a fundamental part of the process. That you think it's a handwave is ludicrous.

Quote:
Wait, you didn't tell others about it? You denied them information that would have been useful in their decision to use that doctor or not? That's not very responsible.
Now you're just being contrarian again, completely missing the point and making stuff up in order to continue to disagree with me.

Either address the things I actually say, or don't bother.

Quote:
Having such an obviously false 'opinion' on science directly connected to their area of business is an indication they'll practice based on those incorrect beliefs.
Yes, but what does that have to do with the OP?

Quote:
It's an observation.
No, it's a prediction. You can't speculate about what someone would do in a hypothetical situation and call it an observation.

Do you even know what the words you use mean? As I said, irony.

Originally Posted by tyr_13 View Post
The specific objection Belz made was that because people have claimed opposing opinions were dangerous in the past that opinions now couldn't be causing harm
I never said that. I argued that because anyone can claim that about any opinion, you must demonstrate that a specific opinion causes harm, not merely claim it.

You seem to be either utterly unable to comprehend what you read, or unwilling to honestly engage in debate.
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Old 30th June 2020, 02:27 AM   #204
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Originally Posted by Belz... View Post
Sorry, but "literally" doesn't mean "that's how I interpreted it at first and now refuse to reassess what I read". I never made such an argument.



Irony.
LMAO, yeah, it would be ironic if I had not, you know, reassessed what I read and pointed out my own error that you even quote in this post.



Quote:
Pointing out that doctors don't become doctors on their own decision alone is not a handwave, it's a fundamental part of the process. That you think it's a handwave is ludicrous.

This is silly given that you claimed something similar did in fact happen to you! No process is perfect and people descend into crankhood even if they previously were reasonable. You're handwaving, badly, considering you said something like it happened to you. Duh.



Quote:
Now you're just being contrarian again, completely missing the point and making stuff up in order to continue to disagree with me.

Either address the things I actually say, or don't bother.

I did, but yeah, I probably shouldn't bother. Germ theory isn't important for doctors and warning others would be irresponsible if it ended up getting such a doctor fired.



Quote:
Yes, but what does that have to do with the OP?

Getting you to admit that there is the possibility of justification for things like getting people fired or kicked from college to build common ground that could then be used as the basis for expanding into more specifics. Not sure why I thought that would be possible or a useful thing to do because the path with more utility would have just been to point out the gaping flaw in your reasoning then let you rant.



Quote:
No, it's a prediction. You can't speculate about what someone would do in a hypothetical situation and call it an observation.

Do you even know what the words you use mean? As I said, irony.

What hypothetical there? It's this situation and past ones. It's an observation. You're not going to ever move on from assigning whatever motivations you have to to poison the well, because that's exactly what you do with all social justice adjacent topics. Someone disagrees with you, you claim some 'high horse' nonsense or 'having standards is calling me bad' or whatever rationalization you need. It's tedious. More to the point, it never, ever actually matters. Not only do I not care what your assessment of my motives are, not only are they consistently wrong, it never actually impacts the argument.


Quote:
I never said that. I argued that because anyone can claim that about any opinion, you must demonstrate that a specific opinion causes harm, not merely claim it.

You seem to be either utterly unable to comprehend what you read, or unwilling to honestly engage in debate.

Yeah, you said it 'sounded reasonable' and made a bizarre appeal to the first amendment. 'I don't buy it' is in no way 'you must demonstrate harm here'.

Thanks for making it clear my taking time to admitting an error was wasted. Stay mad.
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Old 30th June 2020, 02:46 AM   #205
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Originally Posted by tyr_13 View Post
LMAO, yeah, it would be ironic if I had not, you know, reassessed what I read and pointed out my own error that you even quote in this post.
Except that your reassessment makes the SAME mistake despite me spoon-feeding you.

Quote:
What hypothetical there?
The one where you predicted how I would act. Do you even know what the word means?

Quote:
Yeah, you said it 'sounded reasonable' and made a bizarre appeal to the first amendment. 'I don't buy it' is in no way 'you must demonstrate harm here'.
You missed the clear implication, and then when I spelled it out for you in a later post you ignored it and continued to pretend I had said something else.

Quote:
Thanks for making it clear my taking time to admitting an error was wasted.
Pull the other one. It wasn't an admission of error. It was just a rhetorical trick setting up another lie. You're just incapable of participating in a discussion.
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Old 30th June 2020, 04:13 AM   #206
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Originally Posted by Emily's Cat View Post
You do realize that several of the examples given do not fit your description, don't you?
Perhaps it makes more sense to talk about individual incidents. Lumping all these together as "cancel culture" is nonsense.

People who are rightfully facing social consequences for bad actors will cry "cancel culture", trying to obfuscate the facts.

Social consequences exist in a spectrum of proportionality where ostracism from polite society, or "cancelling", is only one point. Whether or not it is appropriate or not depends on the circumstances and personal judgement, so talking vaguely about "cancel culture" without details is a wasted effort, and, I suspect, an attempt for bad actors to evade the consequences of their actions.

Originally Posted by Emily's Cat View Post

Over the past several years there have been many events that have filled me with trepidation. There was the case of Nick Sandmann, and the altercation in D.C. where he was initially presented as being a racist who was intimidating a native american man. He and his family received death threats, and his school received a lot of public pressure to expel him on the basis of the edited video. Then there was the case of Justine Sacco making an edgy joke on twitter before getting on a plane. By the time she landed, she had been drawn and quartered by the internet, and had been fired due to public outrage. More recently, there is the case of Amy Cooper who threatened to call the police on a black man in a N.Y.C. park. The backlash from social media was so immediate and profound that she was fired in less than a day of the posting, and there is pressure for the professional organizations to which she belongs to remove her credentials.

The degree of transgression in these cases varies, but in all cases there was coercion from a nameless, faceless mob attempting to punish them for their wrongdoings. The punishments, to me, seem far beyond what should be merited.
I don't think your examples show that cancel culture is out of control:

Sandmann: Initial reaction was overheated, and there was a very public correction. Sandmann remains "uncancelled" and is now a minor celebrity among the right wing. If anything, the experience was boon for him among his conservative peers.

Sacco: Got a job back with the original company that fired her and seems to be doing fine. For all the talk of a bad joke costing her whole life, she has rebounded very well after telling an explicitly racist joke in the most public way imaginable. Not sure where the humor in joking that millions of poor black people in Africa are doomed to die a horrible death from AIDS and that the rich Western world doesn't give a ****. Maybe my sense of humor is off. Perhaps she's learned a valuable lesson. Hot stoves only get touched once, I suppose.

https://www.vox.com/2018/1/19/169110...p-return-tweet

Cooper: Not sure how you'd describe her fallout as overheated. She was caught on video escalating a petty park conflict into a false call to the police with an explicitly racist threat of violent police overreaction by the NYPD. As far as I know, she hasn't been charged with making a false police call, so she has come out quite nicely. Not enough time has passed, but I very much doubt she will remain unemployable forever. Perhaps she will use the sabbatical for some introspection.

What's the problem in these cases? Seems fine to me. Are you arguing these responses were disproportionate? People are mad because being an open racist is something white people used to be able to get away with. Now there are meaningful consequences when racists out themselves. Sucks to suck, time to wise up.
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Old 30th June 2020, 09:26 AM   #207
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Originally Posted by Belz... View Post
Except that your reassessment makes the SAME mistake despite me spoon-feeding you.



The one where you predicted how I would act. Do you even know what the word means?



You missed the clear implication, and then when I spelled it out for you in a later post you ignored it and continued to pretend I had said something else.



Pull the other one. It wasn't an admission of error. It was just a rhetorical trick setting up another lie. You're just incapable of participating in a discussion.

Look at all that avoiding the actual points and doubling down on claiming you said something you didn't.

It's a damn shame I can't get you to admit the simple truth that harms are possible even with extreme examples. But not surprising.

Keep proving my 'prediction' correct.
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Old 30th June 2020, 09:40 AM   #208
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Originally Posted by Emily's Cat View Post
So, what about Amy Cooper? I don't approve of her actions... but she didn't post the video herself. She did objected to being videoed, and she did not consent to that video of her being posted at all. She also did not provide her own identification. Someone else recognized her and made her name and employer public knowledge. Where does your position come into play on this one? Does she deserve what she got? Is it meet and appropriate that she be fired due to demand by social media? Is it appropriate that the internet mob is seeking to have her professional credentials taken away?
This also works well with the "murder" Ahmaud Arbery. Look at all the trouble that video caused those people.
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Old 30th June 2020, 09:42 AM   #209
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Originally Posted by DragonLady View Post
We've seen a few people lose jobs and college admissions. What's next? Doctors refusing to provide care to those they believe are racist or homophobic?
Yea they are only supposed to refuse the queer community.
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Old 30th June 2020, 09:45 AM   #210
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Originally Posted by TragicMonkey View Post
Bit of a derail, quizzing me on other political issues, but if you honestly care and aren't trying to score points in some stupid contest:

I'm neutral on the protests. I think the BLM protests have a valid and valuable point to make, but I also think that during a contagious pandemic it may be dangerously unwise to engage in such protests. Although public scenes are inherently rude, sometimes rudeness is justified, and in this case I think it is. So my opinions on those aspects of the protests cancel each other out, leaving me neutral: so I don't object to other people protesting, but I'm not doing it myself. I think on the whole they are a good thing, but I really wish there wasn't a pandemic going on during this. (Although I also wonder if the participation would be this high if so many people weren't out of work at the moment.)

As for gay pride parades I'm against those entirely, for three reasons: 1) parades are horrible, 2) gay pride has become commercialized and thereby robbed of its point, and 3) these events are sanitized, Disneyfied versions of queerness meant to appeal to straight people's acceptability. Respectability politics, in other words, which I regard with contempt. And also the participants are seriously at risk of skin cancer.
On the plus side the NYPD is bringing back that good old stonewall spirit by attacking pride parades.

https://abcnews.go.com/US/nypd-clash...ry?id=71510651
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Old 30th June 2020, 09:47 AM   #211
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Originally Posted by Emily's Cat View Post
I never found it acceptable to harass gay people or women, or to send them hate mail. I don't find it acceptable to harass non-gay people or men either, nor to send them hate mail.
Of course it is acceptable, otherwise you would be canceling their free speech. Why are you suddenly against free speech and for canceling people just because someone got their fee fee's hurt?
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Old 30th June 2020, 09:48 AM   #212
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Originally Posted by ponderingturtle View Post
On the plus side the NYPD is bringing back that good old stonewall spirit by attacking pride parades.

https://abcnews.go.com/US/nypd-clash...ry?id=71510651
Back in my day, people got cancelled by bricks.
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Old 30th June 2020, 09:58 AM   #213
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Outrageous instances of cancel culture?

"Three police officers in Wilmington, North Carolina, were fired after their department discovered patrol-car video of conversations containing violent, racist comments about Black people, officials announced Wednesday."

https://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news...le-we-n1232072

A professor of criminal justice advocating driving into protesters and beating reporters loses his job?

https://www.sltrib.com/news/educatio...ate-professor/
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Old 30th June 2020, 02:03 PM   #214
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Originally Posted by tyr_13 View Post
...my assertion that claims should be evaluated on their individual merits...

Originally Posted by tyr_13 View Post
It did obliquely refer to the OP, but in exaggerated fashion to illustrate my point exactly as my other hypothetical example.
It gets a bit confusing when you're arguing that each case should be evaluated on its specific merits... while simultaneously exaggerating that case to something extreme in order to support your argument against it.
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Old 30th June 2020, 02:05 PM   #215
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Originally Posted by Meadmaker View Post
ETA: I think every single person who participates here would agree that there are things you could, theoretically, say in a tweet that can, and should, get you dismissed from a job, or a college, or whatever else might be deprived to you after whatever it was that you tweeted. However, in the actual cases where bad things have happened to real people after exposure on social media, a lot of us think that darned near all of them represent an overreaction and that the twitter mob really ought to back off. That's the real twitter mob, not the hypothetical one.
Yes, I think that's very much the case.
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Old 30th June 2020, 02:09 PM   #216
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Originally Posted by rdwight View Post
Hmm, only have random thoughts on the topic so I'll just spill them out. While I am sure a lot of cases of these happening are not as widely known, it would seem their overall numbers are relatively low. While the volume is low, the impact to those involved is large enough to garner fear in even well intention people. It will have a stifling of speech affect, both from those targeted and from allies that would otherwise speak up in support but won't for fear of expressing themselves in the wrong way or having their intent misunderstood. People will disagree on if that is a good trade off.
I think it's probably a bit worse than this. Stifling speech and silencing people in public spaces doesn't change their minds. It doesn't alter their views. In fact, it removes the possibility of altering their views altogether.

And as you mention, it also has the entrenching effect of forcing people to only share their views with people who already agree with them.
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Old 30th June 2020, 02:47 PM   #217
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Originally Posted by Emily's Cat View Post
It gets a bit confusing when you're arguing that each case should be evaluated on its specific merits... while simultaneously exaggerating that case to something extreme in order to support your argument against it.
Nope. I made an exaggerated case, which wasn't even much of an exaggeration, in order to secure agreement that there are things someone could say that justifies losing their job, or college spot, or justifies notifying others. It was exaggerated to show an extreme case we could all agree on. But...

Originally Posted by Emily's Cat View Post
Yes, I think that's very much the case.
...Belz argued against these extreme hypotheticals even.

Trying to establish the premise of the possible shouldn't be that confusing. And no, the overwhelming majority of these interactions don't likely escalate to more than a telling off. You all drastically underestimate the number of such interactions on the internet. The ones that make the news, made the news. They aren't a proper sample. Further, it's pretty rich that people keep exaggerating the harms to the 'victims' of the real life cases are hanging up on my hypotheticals. Jimmy Fallon? Really? Literally not canceled.
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Old 1st July 2020, 03:42 AM   #218
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Originally Posted by Emily's Cat View Post
I think it's probably a bit worse than this. Stifling speech and silencing people in public spaces doesn't change their minds. It doesn't alter their views. In fact, it removes the possibility of altering their views altogether.
Further, it may well push them further towards the views they were criticised for.
Quote:

And as you mention, it also has the entrenching effect of forcing people to only share their views with people who already agree with them.
That happens at both ends of the spectrum.
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Old 1st July 2020, 04:23 AM   #219
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Originally Posted by Emily's Cat View Post
I think it's probably a bit worse than this. Stifling speech and silencing people in public spaces doesn't change their minds. It doesn't alter their views. In fact, it removes the possibility of altering their views altogether.
We all take this as a given but is it true?

Originally Posted by Emily's Cat View Post

And as you mention, it also has the entrenching effect of forcing people to only share their views with people who already agree with them.
People already do that, that is one of the paradoxes of the internet, access to everything but platforms built on top of it designed to create bubbles of like minded interests so advertising can be better targeted.
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Old 1st July 2020, 04:34 AM   #220
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Originally Posted by Emily's Cat View Post
I think it's probably a bit worse than this. Stifling speech and silencing people in public spaces doesn't change their minds. It doesn't alter their views. In fact, it removes the possibility of altering their views altogether.

And as you mention, it also has the entrenching effect of forcing people to only share their views with people who already agree with them.
Is there any proof that allowing vile bigots to be public bigots free of consequences changes their minds? Is there any proof that sending the message that certain types of bigotry are unwelcome in public causes increased bigotry?

How much abuse should people be willing to tolerate in order to leave the glimmer of hope that racists and other bigots might learn to not be vile bigots?

I think having a set of social expectations that bigotry is not acceptable in the general public is a good tool for reminding bigots that they should change their ways.
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Old 1st July 2020, 06:23 AM   #221
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Originally Posted by SuburbanTurkey View Post
Is there any proof that allowing vile bigots to be public bigots free of consequences changes their minds? Is there any proof that sending the message that certain types of bigotry are unwelcome in public causes increased bigotry?

How much abuse should people be willing to tolerate in order to leave the glimmer of hope that racists and other bigots might learn to not be vile bigots?

I think having a set of social expectations that bigotry is not acceptable in the general public is a good tool for reminding bigots that they should change their ways.


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Old 1st July 2020, 06:54 AM   #222
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Originally Posted by SuburbanTurkey View Post
Is there any proof that allowing vile bigots to be public bigots free of consequences changes their minds? Is there any proof that sending the message that certain types of bigotry are unwelcome in public causes increased bigotry?

How much abuse should people be willing to tolerate in order to leave the glimmer of hope that racists and other bigots might learn to not be vile bigots?

I think having a set of social expectations that bigotry is not acceptable in the general public is a good tool for reminding bigots that they should change their ways.
Let me get this straight, to you people who think trans women are not women and express this view are bigots? Even vile bigots?

If not, what beliefs and behaviours are necessary for people to be declared bigots?

All I see from your posts in this and similar threads is “all people who disagree with me are bigots”. You may be right, but some criteria to measure the degree of bigotness would be handy.
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Old 1st July 2020, 07:00 AM   #223
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Originally Posted by lionking View Post
Let me get this straight, to you people who think trans women are not women and express this view are bigots? Even vile bigots?

If not, what beliefs and behaviours are necessary for people to be declared bigots?

All I see from your posts in this and similar threads is “all people who disagree with me are bigots”. You may be right, but some criteria to measure the degree of bigotness would be handy.
In the context of the examples given, I think a pretty stern social consequence, or "cancellation" was appropriate.

It is possible to hold bigoted views, such as transphobes do, without acting on them or inflicting them on others in public.

These people aren't being "cancelled" for the views they hold, they are being "cancelled" for the actions they take in public. Amy Goodman could have lived her life happily as a closet-racist so long as she hadn't inflicted her racism on the public. It's action, not wrongthink, that's being punished.

Someone who confronts a trans person in public and hurls slurs at them is probably going to get cancelled. Someone who calls the cops on a trans person for being trans is going to get cancelled. Someone who acts out their anti-trans animus in public is likewise likely to be cancelled. Is that wrong, to your eye?
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Old 1st July 2020, 07:09 AM   #224
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Originally Posted by lionking View Post
Let me get this straight, to you people who think trans women are not women and express this view are bigots? Even vile bigots?

If not, what beliefs and behaviours are necessary for people to be declared bigots?

All I see from your posts in this and similar threads is “all people who disagree with me are bigots”. You may be right, but some criteria to measure the degree of bigotness would be handy.
Bigot - a person who is intolerant towards those holding different opinions.

Remind you of anyone?

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Old 1st July 2020, 07:23 AM   #225
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Originally Posted by Lplus View Post
Bigot - a person who is intolerant towards those holding different opinions.

Remind you of anyone?
I was thinking exactly the same thing.
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Old 1st July 2020, 07:24 AM   #226
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Originally Posted by Lplus View Post
Bigot - a person who is intolerant towards those holding different opinions.

Remind you of anyone?
Yeah. Plenty of people in this thread seem intolerant of people who hold the view that trans women are not women.
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Old 1st July 2020, 07:27 AM   #227
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Originally Posted by SuburbanTurkey View Post
In the context of the examples given, I think a pretty stern social consequence, or "cancellation" was appropriate.

It is possible to hold bigoted views, such as transphobes do, without acting on them or inflicting them on others in public.

These people aren't being "cancelled" for the views they hold, they are being "cancelled" for the actions they take in public. Amy Goodman could have lived her life happily as a closet-racist so long as she hadn't inflicted her racism on the public. It's action, not wrongthink, that's being punished.

Someone who confronts a trans person in public and hurls slurs at them is probably going to get cancelled. Someone who calls the cops on a trans person for being trans is going to get cancelled. Someone who acts out their anti-trans animus in public is likewise likely to be cancelled. Is that wrong, to your eye?
Thank you, and nothing is wrong with how you have articulated this.

The problem is that you and others in this and similar threads seem to accuse others who simply hold differing views to you as bigots.
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Old 1st July 2020, 07:33 AM   #228
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Originally Posted by lionking View Post
Thank you, and nothing is wrong with how you have articulated this.

The problem is that you and others in this and similar threads seem to accuse others who simply hold differing views to you as bigots.
Those people are welcome to shut the **** up about it anytime.
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Old 1st July 2020, 07:35 AM   #229
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Originally Posted by d4m10n View Post
Punishable by death if you go back far enough. You've provided an excellent example of how the majority can go way too far in enforcing social monoculture.
What would be awesome is if someone could provide an example of this happening now. Outside of Justine Sacco, I have yet to see actual long term, life-changing consequences for the "victims". And even she has moved on with her career, taking a bigger job at the same company.
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Old 1st July 2020, 07:38 AM   #230
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Originally Posted by lionking View Post
Yeah. Plenty of people in this thread seem intolerant of people who hold the view that trans women are not women.
I think I woud throw the net further than that.
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Old 1st July 2020, 07:42 AM   #231
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Originally Posted by Bubba View Post
Its the progressive culture. Teachers are losing jobs for questioning gender or Black Lives Matter.
Link?

Quote:
They get labeled Nazi or Racist. One guy's wife was fired for refusing to disavow her husband's saying "All lives matter". Its worse than most realize.
Link?

Quote:
Dumbing down public education and the Frankfurt School are partly to thank for public school teachers and college professors breeding the behaviors in question.
Ah, there we go.

Quote:
Watch the "No Safe Spaces" trailer. Few people know what happened to traditional college education.
By a couple of guys who never went to college? Adam Carolla is such a beta. He constantly accuses of others of wanting "safe spaces" and then cries when he can't have one.

Quote:
Its true Nick Sandman did nothing. Literally. Footage shows Nathan Phillips walk up to Sandman and stand there drumming. Sandman stood silently and smiled. At one point he 'shushed' his classmates with a hand signal.
No, that's not true. He didn't deserve the bile he got (the adults that were supposed to be chaperoning did) but he wasn't an innocent bystander in that. And where is he now?
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Old 1st July 2020, 08:42 AM   #232
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Originally Posted by Donal View Post
No, that's not true. He didn't deserve the bile he got (the adults that were supposed to be chaperoning did) but he wasn't an innocent bystander in that. And where is he now?
And that's a big problem with the call out culture. Once called out, not everyone gets the memo that the original call out was false. This isn't new with the internet. Gossip, falsehoods, propaganda are as old as time I would imagine. The difference today is that it can happen so quickly to anyone. If someone has an interesting video of you, you can be famous within minutes, whether or not the story that accompanies the video happens to be true.

Nick Sandmann was totally and completely innocent. He did nothing wrong. His classmates did nothing wrong. His chaperones did nothing wrong. Nathan Phillips misunderstood what he was seeing, and, based on his misunderstanding, acted inappropriately, but the story that got told was completely different than what actually happened. It all got sorted out, eventually, but not everyone who was interested in the initial story was interested in the subsequent corrections.

Your last question is interesting. Yes, it's true, Sandmann came out of it pretty ok. Now, though, suppose he had been just a little bit guilty. What of all those people who actually do something wrong. Maybe in the ten seconds of their lives that we see them, their behavior wasn't the best. Maybe, God forbid, they are very, very, angry at someone of a different race, and do something to call attention to the race. Is it right to mete out punishment that could have lifelong consequences based on the 10 seconds of behavior we see on film?
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Old 1st July 2020, 08:46 AM   #233
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Originally Posted by Meadmaker View Post
And that's a big problem with the call out culture. Once called out, not everyone gets the memo that the original call out was false. This isn't new with the internet. Gossip, falsehoods, propaganda are as old as time I would imagine. The difference today is that it can happen so quickly to anyone. If someone has an interesting video of you, you can be famous within minutes, whether or not the story that accompanies the video happens to be true.

Nick Sandmann was totally and completely innocent. He did nothing wrong. His classmates did nothing wrong. His chaperones did nothing wrong. Nathan Phillips misunderstood what he was seeing, and, based on his misunderstanding, acted inappropriately, but the story that got told was completely different than what actually happened. It all got sorted out, eventually, but not everyone who was interested in the initial story was interested in the subsequent corrections.

Your last question is interesting. Yes, it's true, Sandmann came out of it pretty ok. Now, though, suppose he had been just a little bit guilty. What of all those people who actually do something wrong. Maybe in the ten seconds of their lives that we see them, their behavior wasn't the best. Maybe, God forbid, they are very, very, angry at someone of a different race, and do something to call attention to the race. Is it right to mete out punishment that could have lifelong consequences based on the 10 seconds of behavior we see on film?
Gonna need a citation for "lifelong consequences" ever happening because of "call out culture".

Getting called an a-hole by the internet and losing a job isn't lifelong consequences.
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Old 1st July 2020, 08:50 AM   #234
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There's a further irony in the Sandmann case. What really happened? There was a group of racist nut cases doing their preaching, and some of the Covington Catholic kids were taunting them. This is the kind of behavior that is encouraged. When you encounter racism, it's ok to yell at the racists, to verbally abuse the racists, some would say it's perfectly fine to throw things at them or commit vandalism. Racism is bad, so rules of good manners don't apply when dealing with racists.

Meanwhile, enter Nathan Phillips. He sees white kids taunting black guys. Racism! he concludes, and so goes in and starts chanting and wades into the crowd, chanting and drumming to break it up. He was just wrong, but the narrative persisted.

The kids would have been better off just ignoring the black guys, but that's not what society has taught them to do when encountering racism.
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Old 1st July 2020, 08:57 AM   #235
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Originally Posted by SuburbanTurkey View Post
Gonna need a citation for "lifelong consequences" ever happening because of "call out culture".

Getting called an a-hole by the internet and losing a job isn't lifelong consequences.
I was indeed referring to loss of jobs, college admissions, or reputations as "lifelong consequences". I suppose we could debate "lifelong consequences" and its meaning, depending on the age of the person, the type of job, etc. etc.
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Old 1st July 2020, 09:09 AM   #236
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Originally Posted by Meadmaker View Post
There's a further irony in the Sandmann case. What really happened? There was a group of racist nut cases doing their preaching, and some of the Covington Catholic kids were taunting them. This is the kind of behavior that is encouraged. When you encounter racism, it's ok to yell at the racists, to verbally abuse the racists, some would say it's perfectly fine to throw things at them or commit vandalism. Racism is bad, so rules of good manners don't apply when dealing with racists.

Meanwhile, enter Nathan Phillips. He sees white kids taunting black guys. Racism! he concludes, and so goes in and starts chanting and wades into the crowd, chanting and drumming to break it up. He was just wrong, but the narrative persisted.

The kids would have been better off just ignoring the black guys, but that's not what society has taught them to do when encountering racism.

Not to derail, but do you have a source for the above? It was my understanding that the BHI were slinging insults and taunts at the kids (starting the entire mess), and the kids responded by singing their school fight song or the like. Nothing about the kids insulting the bigots.

Not to undercut the general thrust of your post (which I agree with), just curious on that specific bit.
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Old 1st July 2020, 09:17 AM   #237
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Originally Posted by Joe Random View Post
Not to derail, but do you have a source for the above? It was my understanding that the BHI were slinging insults and taunts at the kids (starting the entire mess), and the kids responded by singing their school fight song or the like. Nothing about the kids insulting the bigots.

Not to undercut the general thrust of your post (which I agree with), just curious on that specific bit.
I vaguely recall some verbal back and forth. It was definitely on the mild side of taunting, and I had forgotten the school fight song part. Definitely a nice touch.
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Old 1st July 2020, 09:21 AM   #238
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Originally Posted by Meadmaker View Post
I was indeed referring to loss of jobs, college admissions, or reputations as "lifelong consequences". I suppose we could debate "lifelong consequences" and its meaning, depending on the age of the person, the type of job, etc. etc.
Seems like a bad example if the goal is to demonstrate the folly of "cancel culture". It's hard to speculate what might have happened to the MAGA school kids had the worst version of the story been true, because it never happened.

Seeing as they were vindicated, lionized by their political allies, and came out with undisclosed cash settlements, I'd say they were quite lucky to be "cancelled".
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Old 1st July 2020, 10:30 AM   #239
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Originally Posted by SuburbanTurkey View Post
Seeing as they were vindicated, lionized by their political allies, and came out with undisclosed cash settlements, I'd say they were quite lucky to be "cancelled".
I find this outlook weird, because I've seen the same kind of rhetoric from some on the right when it comes to subjects like wrongful imprisionment, arrest, or something smaller like untenable school situations in regards to racism not addressed by administration. "I'd let the police beat me up for a million dollars!!"
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Old 1st July 2020, 10:34 AM   #240
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Originally Posted by Meadmaker View Post
Your last question is interesting. Yes, it's true, Sandmann came out of it pretty ok. Now, though, suppose he had been just a little bit guilty. What of all those people who actually do something wrong. Maybe in the ten seconds of their lives that we see them, their behavior wasn't the best. Maybe, God forbid, they are very, very, angry at someone of a different race, and do something to call attention to the race. Is it right to mete out punishment that could have lifelong consequences based on the 10 seconds of behavior we see on film?
Emphasis added.

Originally Posted by SuburbanTurkey View Post
Seems like a bad example if the goal is to demonstrate the folly of "cancel culture". It's hard to speculate what might have happened to the MAGA school kids had the worst version of the story been true, because it never happened.

Seeing as they were vindicated, lionized by their political allies, and came out with undisclosed cash settlements, I'd say they were quite lucky to be "cancelled".
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