Would socialism/communism really help racial minorites

Joined
Oct 28, 2012
Messages
625
There seems to be a truism that abolishing captialism will lead to be end of racism. But if we had a system of worker co-ops or were property is communally owned, can't white people still oppress (inadvertently or not) black people by being the majority?
 
Would socialism/communism really help racial minorites?

In theory, yes. In theory a system that ensures equality would end racism. In theory in such a system people would be incentivised to cooperate instead of compete, and in theory people would then not feel they are in competition with other ethnic groups, and therefore not feel the need to treat them any differently than anyone else. In theory.

Did I say "in theory" enough? In theory?

There are obviously a few obstacles when it comes to actually implimenting politcal theories into practice...
 
By social activists online, just google "capitalism, racism". I guess truism may not be the right word. "Assumption" is more like it.

By all social activists online? Some? A few?

But adherents to an ideology claiming that their ideology will cure the world of its ills is not exactly unheard of. It's actually quite common. I have seen white supremacists claim that ethnostates will cure racism as well.
 
By social activists online, just google "capitalism, racism". I guess truism may not be the right word. "Assumption" is more like it.

"Hey, look: found someone with some crazy opinion!" is not the same as "hey, all people who share this arbitrary characteristic with this person must share this crazy opinion."
 
There seems to be a truism that abolishing captialism will lead to be end of racism. But if we had a system of worker co-ops or were property is communally owned, can't white people still oppress (inadvertently or not) black people by being the majority?

Where and by whom?
 
By all social activists online? Some? A few?

But adherents to an ideology claiming that their ideology will cure the world of its ills is not exactly unheard of. It's actually quite common. I have seen white supremacists claim that ethnostates will cure racism as well.

Or there may be other solutions that finally end the problem of racism....
 
"Hey, look: found someone with some crazy opinion!" is not the same as "hey, all people who share this arbitrary characteristic with this person must share this crazy opinion."

It's not "someone". Just type in "capitalism and racism" and you'll see have common it is claimed. I don't need to spoon feed people.
 
Historically, people attempting a revolution frequently attempt to appeal to whatever groups are currently being oppressed, neglected, disaffected, or just not prospering under the current system. Of course socialists and communists have made sales pitches to ethnic minorities. Some of them possibly in good faith, others not so much.
 
No one ever said that. In fact I'm yet to see anyone trying to link racism ro capitalism.

Black Lives Matter has:

People submitting to the mob 'supporting radical Marxist group'
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_TJpqSZ8ACc

Note: I realize this is a right-wing news outlet and therefore the propositions would need verification. It is worth noting, however, that if an attack is coming from the extreme left, the right-wing media would be the last to self censor.
 
Well.

Capitalism is an economic system. It's based on two simple ideas: Private property, and the property owner's right to profit from the use of their property. In principle, the property owner is incentivized to maximize profit from their property, without regard for the race, class, gender, etc. of the other parties involved in the transaciton. If it pay, it plays.

But in practice, this doesn't always happen. The big issue is that people will trade profits for happiness. This is the whole point of profits, really. So if I don't like you for some stupid reason, I might choose not to do business with you. I'd give up some of my profits for the happiness of not having to deal with you.

So capitalism as such isn't really going to have an effect on racism, or any other ism.

Communism, on the other hand, is also an economic system. It's also based on two simple ideas: Communal property, and communal profit from the use of the property. In principle, an equitable community, that accepted community members without regard for race, etc., would share communal profits equally to all members.

But is this what actually happens? I guess one approach to this question would be to look at kibbutzes and other small-scale, opt-in communes. Do such communes tend (not) to show a racial bias when accepting new members? Do they form around groups that are already ethnically bonded, and therefore reluctant to embrace other ethnicities in their commune? After they're formed, do the minority members tend (not) to get treated equally in commune affairs?

Another approach might be to look at the large-scale attempts to implement communism. This becomes a question of political systems, not just economic systems. There's also the problem that large-scale attempts like the Soviet Union are not actually communism, according to some.

My understanding of the Soviet attempt is that the answer is mixed: On the one hand, the totalitarian regime was in a position to mandate and enforce equitable treatment in the commune, to a much greater degree than liberal democracies do. On the other hand, the totalitarian state was in a position to conduct massive ethnic cleansing operations. But does this actually tell us anything about communism? Maybe not.
 
But in practice, this doesn't always happen. The big issue is that people will trade profits for happiness. This is the whole point of profits, really. So if I don't like you for some stupid reason, I might choose not to do business with you. I'd give up some of my profits for the happiness of not having to deal with you.

So capitalism as such isn't really going to have an effect on racism, or any other ism.

I disagree. Capitalism will not prevent racism, but that doesn't mean it won't have any effect on it. The profit motive provides an incentive to not discriminate against people on a superficial basis such as race. Some people may do so anyways, but they will pay an economic price for doing so. And some people who would like to racially discriminate in the absence of any cost will choose not to when faced with having to pay that cost. So that's an effect on racism, and a positive effect at that. Certain government market interventions (such as minimum wage and rent control) serve to reduce or eliminate this economic price of racial discrimination.
 
Of there is absolutely nothing preventing Socialists or Communists from enacting racist policies. In fact, many of the major socialist countries in recent history have all but embraced national, racial or ethnic chauvinism and nationalism while maintaining that they are against it.

The Soviet Union and its client states are great examples.

After Lenin died The Soviet Union progressively embraced Russian nationalism at the same time as it become far less socially liberal and tolerant. Even though the other member states were notionally equal to the Russian one, they effectively became little more than provinces directly ruled from Moscow and whose people were to emulate the Russians as far as feasible. Russian culture and language was emphasized often to the exclusion of the native language and culture, especially in the major cities and towns and amongst the elite.

Perhaps the most direct proof against the idea that "Socialism is an antidote to racism" is the fact that, despite Jew being overrepresented in the early Communist party and generally supported the Communists during the civil war, in large part due to the intense discrimination and persecution they faced under the Russian Empire and the "Whites", Stalin would eventually institute antisemitic policies and rhetoric that never really went away.

In the end, when the Soviet Union was collapsing, it was not uncommon for Communists and Russian ultra-nationalists or outright fascist to stand together.
 
Last edited:
I disagree. Capitalism will not prevent racism, but that doesn't mean it won't have any effect on it. The profit motive provides an incentive to not discriminate against people on a superficial basis such as race. Some people may do so anyways, but they will pay an economic price for doing so. And some people who would like to racially discriminate in the absence of any cost will choose not to when faced with having to pay that cost. So that's an effect on racism, and a positive effect at that. Certain government market interventions (such as minimum wage and rent control) serve to reduce or eliminate this economic price of racial discrimination.

Good point. I posted before I'd finished thinking it through.

So under capitalism, personal greed serves as a counterbalance to personal bigotry.

What counterbalance does communism provide? To me it seems the counterbalance must be ideological. The more you believe in communal equality, the less likely you are to discriminate against your fellow commune members out of ethnic bigotry. This suggests that small-scale, opt-in communes would do pretty well for their minority members, since everyone involved is a true believer that chose this arrangement. On a large scale, when you have to impose a social order on people who don't necessarily believe in it, it might not work out so well.

Anyway, this is back to my original suggestion: Look at how kibbutzes and other small-scale communes have behaved.

There were communist-style arrangements in some medieval communities. But I bet those were already ethnically segregated and indulged in the entire rainbow of human bigotry. If a Fleming shows up to a Belgian commune, will he be welcomed with open arms as an equal member entitled to an equal share?

What has been the attitude of Israeli kibbutzim to the gentiles among them?

Anyway, my guess is that communes offer just as much scope for racism as any other social system. As Orwell observed, even in ideologically equitable systems, some always end up being more equal than others.
 
Perhaps you'd like to enlighten the rest of us? It's a good question after all.
Due to its vague, arbitrary, and often seemingly contradictory, meanings, I don't use the term very much.
I was hoping one of the posters who use it in the majority of their postings might offer a definition.
The premise of the thread seems to be questioning whether or not a system that prioritizes equality of outcome more than the one we currently have might eliminate racism.

That only groks if racism is defined as uneven economic outcomes.

If racism is simply considering someone else inferior due to conditions of their ancestry, I don't see how that changes much with greater equality in the distribution of wealth.
 
Last edited:
I disagree. Capitalism will not prevent racism, but that doesn't mean it won't have any effect on it. The profit motive provides an incentive to not discriminate against people on a superficial basis such as race. Some people may do so anyways, but they will pay an economic price for doing so. And some people who would like to racially discriminate in the absence of any cost will choose not to when faced with having to pay that cost. So that's an effect on racism, and a positive effect at that. Certain government market interventions (such as minimum wage and rent control) serve to reduce or eliminate this economic price of racial discrimination.

Only if one defines "discriminating against" as "being unwilling to take their money"
 
Due to its vague, arbitrary, and often seemingly contradictory, meanings, I don't use the term very much.
I was hoping one of the posters who use it in the majority of their postings might offer a definition.
The premise of the thread seems to be questioning whether or not a system that prioritizes equality of outcome more than the one we currently have might eliminate racism.

That only groks if racism is defined as uneven economical outcomes.

If racism is simply considering someone else inferior due to conditions of their ancestry, I don't see how that changes much with greater equality in the distribution of wealth.

I'm thinking of it in terms of institutional or systemic racism. I don't really care about whether individual community members harbor bigotry in their hearts. Does a system that prioritizes equality of outcome do a better job of preventing individual racists from using their prejudice to interfere with the system?

Under capitalism, a minority member has no one to appeal to. "This guy won't sell me a house!" So what? It's his property; he has the right not to sell if he doesn't want to.

Under communism, a member can appeal to the commune. "The principles of our system demand that I get an equal share of our housing!" This is true, and Comrade Duncecap will be reprimanded by the Committee for Cooperative Communal Programs. You can have the bunk nearest the heater when it's your turn in the rotation.
 
I'm thinking of it in terms of institutional or systemic racism. I don't really care about whether individual community members harbor bigotry in their hearts. Does a system that prioritizes equality of outcome do a better job of preventing individual racists from using their prejudice to interfere with the system?

Under capitalism, a minority member has no one to appeal to. "This guy won't sell me a house!" So what? It's his property; he has the right not to sell if he doesn't want to.

Under communism, a member can appeal to the commune. "The principles of our system demand that I get an equal share of our housing!" This is true, and Comrade Duncecap will be reprimanded by the Committee for Cooperative Communal Programs. You can have the bunk nearest the heater when it's your turn in the rotation.

It's hard to compare. Capitalism is just one small element of a society, not an entire description. Capitalism can be liberal or illiberal. Apartheid South Africa was capitalist, and so is Canada, and their approaches to racial equality differ here and there.

Any societal structure can be racist or not. It's one small element of a larger framework. Socialism, communism, and capitalism says a lot more about their economic ideology than anything about civil rights or racial equality.
 
It's not "someone". Just type in "capitalism and racism" and you'll see have common it is claimed. I don't need to spoon feed people.

You can Google anything you imagine, find thousands of results, and it still doesn't mean it's "common".

Either support your own claim or retract it.
 
It's not "someone". Just type in "capitalism and racism" and you'll see have common it is claimed. I don't need to spoon feed people.

Then they are wrong.

All ideologies whether that is Christianity (religious ideology), Communism (economic ideology) or Nazism (political ideology) are wrong as they do not accurately model human beings' behaviour nor the emergent properties of humans interacting.
 
It's hard to compare. Capitalism is just one small element of a society, not an entire description. Capitalism can be liberal or illiberal. Apartheid South Africa was capitalist, and so is Canada, and their approaches to racial equality differ here and there.

Any societal structure can be racist or not. It's one small element of a larger framework. Socialism, communism, and capitalism says a lot more about their economic ideology than anything about civil rights or racial equality.

One thing that distinguishes communism from capitalism, for me, is that communism is necessarily a socio-political system, in addition to being an economic system. So that makes comparison difficult. Especially if we look at large-scale mandates.

This is why I think that for a lot of questions like this, it's probably more useful to start by looking at small-scale, opt-in communes. Kibbutzes seem like a good place to look, but I haven't really looked into it myself.
 
I disagree. Capitalism will not prevent racism, but that doesn't mean it won't have any effect on it. The profit motive provides an incentive to not discriminate against people on a superficial basis such as race. Some people may do so anyways, but they will pay an economic price for doing so. And some people who would like to racially discriminate in the absence of any cost will choose not to when faced with having to pay that cost. So that's an effect on racism, and a positive effect at that. Certain government market interventions (such as minimum wage and rent control) serve to reduce or eliminate this economic price of racial discrimination.

We now know that people do not behave in a rational manner nor value the same things the same way nor always act in their own best interests so capitalism (like all the others) fails in its defining principles.
 
Then they are wrong.

All ideologies whether that is Christianity (religious ideology), Communism (economic ideology) or Nazism (political ideology) are wrong as they do not accurately model human beings' behaviour nor the emergent properties of humans interacting.

First of all, these ideologies are prescriptive, not descriptive. They're not trying to model human interaction as an end goal. They're trying to prescribe how humans should choose to interact with each other.

Second, these ideologies do a pretty good job of modeling human interaction. Since their whole point is to prescribe solutions to the observed problems of human interaction. For example, the Christian doctrine of "love thy neighbor as thyself". It's not a model of how human interaction really is. It's a prescription based on a relatively accurate model of human interaction: The model says humans are often dicks to their neighbors. The ideology looks at the behavior predicted by the model and says, here's an alternative you can choose.

Third, "modeling" is probably the wrong term for what's going on. Marx didn't need to model human behavior; he just needed to observe it.
 
There was no racism in the old USSR and none in modern China, Except there was and is.
 
We now know that people do not behave in a rational manner nor value the same things the same way nor always act in their own best interests so capitalism (like all the others) fails in its defining principles.

People do behave in a rational manner, though. Just... not all the time.

Or, look at it another way: People do often behave in a rational manner, according to their starting premises.

Is greed rational? Whether it is or not, a lot of people act rationally to satisfy their greed.

Is racism rational? Whether it is or not, a lot of people act rationally to satisfy their racism.

Capitalism puts greed and racism into opposition. This at least allows for one to counterbalance the other from time to time. Rational application of racism ("I won't do business with minorities") can be mitigated by rational application of greed ("I'll do business with anyone who can pay my price").
 
Good point. I posted before I'd finished thinking it through.

So under capitalism, personal greed serves as a counterbalance to personal bigotry.

I would say "not really". What you have to consider is that:

1. It doesn't matter nearly as much what you as the owner think of equality, as what your customers think.

If people are willing to pay more to see big boobs, you get Hooters. If you don't cater to them, someone else will. If people pay more to not have blacks in the same neighbourhood, you get people migrating first to the suburbs, then making gated communities. Sure, they pay more and sacrifice their time in commute too, but they're the ones creating the demand, not the supply side. If, say, you refused to sell them the land for a WASP gated community, someone else will. If people pay more to not have blacks in the same restaurant, then you get, well, segregated places. Unless some law or regulation levels the playing field, you as the owner aren't really the driving force there. If you don't provide the supply for that demand, someone else will.

Essentially, it's also very simple economics: supply and demand. If there is enough demand for racism, someone will provide the supply. In fact, under the free market theory if would be irrational NOT to provide the supply when there's a demand.

2. Racism is very easy to sell to the large uninformed masses that make up the demand side.

And that's actually where pure market theory won't help you, because it's based on something trivially false: that every actor involved is perfectly rational and perfectly INFORMED. Which is trivially false when it comes to racism and those pandering to racists, whether overtly or with dog-whistle speeches.

Basically no one will tell you "hey, you idiot, if we stop selling to blacks, economies of scale don't work in your favour. Have a look at this graph of units sold vs unit price. The less of these we sell, the more each of them cost. So you're paying extra if you want blacks, Jews, muslims, women, etc, excluded from the buyers."

Yes, if people were actually informed that they'd get a cheaper burger if they don't exclude like a quarter of the customers, AND if they were perfectly rational, AND only motivated by greed, like free market theory claims, then they'd rationally decide to buy from the place that doesn't discriminate. But that's 3 false assumptions in one sentence.

And the "informed" one is the most crucial one. Actually the way it's generally perceived and pandered to, it's the polar opposite of reality. It's always presented as you somehow end up paying MORE if you let those pesky minorities in. Either because Jews somehow shaft you if you're not one, or because minority X are all lazy unemployed freeloaders and buy plasma TVs with the welfare your taxes provide, or because they're all criminals and thus impose other drains on society, or whatever.

In short, it's presented as you'd have more of just about everything, including money -- hell, especially money -- if only we didn't have to cater to this or that minority too.

Now guess what greed + this kind of premises does to the conclusion. Yeah, no, it's not acting as a counter-balance to it.


Note however, that communism doesn't really make problem #2 any better. Whether or not different pay is involved, or even money at all is involved, the premise is basically the same: society has enough manpower and resources for amount X of stuff, and it has to be divided somehow among Y million citizens. So there'd be more for you, if you could subtract those Z million of lazy freeloading minority guys from the denominator.

If one actually believes that those Z millions contribute bugger-all to X, but take a more equal share from it, as per communist ideals, it's not gonna make one be more egalitarian, is it?
 
Last edited:
We now know that people do not behave in a rational manner

We now know that? Anyone with a functioning brain has known that all along.

nor value the same things the same way

This doesn't undermine capitalism. It's a central feature.

nor always act in their own best interests

That may be true, but it means far less than you think it does here, because there isn't even a good way to define for other people what their interests are to begin with.

so capitalism (like all the others) fails in its defining principles.

You haven't even stated what you think capitalism's defining principle is, so you're still several steps away from proving that it fails this undefined principle.
 
Only if one defines "discriminating against" as "being unwilling to take their money"

Nope. It works for employment too, for example. If you won't hire minorities, you put yourself at a competitive disadvantage against employers who will. It works in a lot of ways.

And the worst discrimination we have ever inflicted on minorities in the United States always came at the hands of government, not the market.
 
Not if you gain something else in the process.

I stand by my Hooters example. Or even better, a strip club. By the same logic you apply, I put myself at a competitive disadvantage if I don't also hire ugly and flat girls. After all, that's more workforce supply for my demand, and I could find a cheaper girl if I don't insist on her having ample *ahem* qualifications.

But if I get more customers with the more biased hiring policy, then it may actually be more profitable to do so.

There's a reason why there's even the legal concept of BFOQ (Bona Fide Occupational Qualification). Which, yes, does include stuff like only hiring female, young personnel with big boobs at Hooters, although that's three discrimination criteria which wouldn't fly if I'm hiring an accountant.

The same applies to race, really. (Although the law doesn't actually extend BFOQ to that) If I'm in a racist town, I might actually get more customers if I DON'T hire an arab waitress. Even if I could pay her a dollar less per hour, if I make even 10$ less in sales a day because of that, the net balance for being egalitarian just became a negative.

And no, it's not just the government. In the 60's when the emancipation rolled around, the Bible Belt voted en MASSE for the guys who were making a big fuss over such issues as "freedom of association" (as in, I don't want to associate with blacks in a shop) and "state rights" (as in, the feds can't shove equality down our throats.)
 
Last edited:
It's not "someone". Just type in "capitalism and racism" and you'll see have common it is claimed. I don't need to spoon feed people.

It's real simple: You make an argument, you provide the evidence. If you want to be taken seriously and not just collect imaginary victim points, that is.

Not that I wouldn't believe such nutjobs exist. In my first summer job in the early 1980s,I had to work with one communist freak who in all seriousness claimed that Soviet factories don't pollute because that just doesn't happen when the workers control them.

BTW, the USSR was a very racist place, and the remnants of that racism are alive and well in today's Russia. The students the Soviets took from from their African client states were pretty much confined to their dorms after school, because violence was common and the Militsiya couldn't care less.
 
Last edited:
The difference between Nazism and Communism is you can mention Nazism on the internet without hearing "But it just hasn't been tried for REEEAAAAAAAAL yet!"
 
The difference between Nazism and Communism is you can mention Nazism on the internet without hearing "But it just hasn't been tried for REEEAAAAAAAAL yet!"

I mean, that falls a bit flat when you consider that Libertarians are always making apologies for the many failures of the free market, complaining that a real "Free Market Economy" has never been tried.

Idealist dorks exist on both sides.
 
The difference between Nazism and Communism is you can mention Nazism on the internet without hearing "But it just hasn't been tried for REEEAAAAAAAAL yet!"

One question is whether Fascism has been tried for real.

Another question is whether Fascism is really all that bad, if you take away the Hitlerite perversions. Anti-semitism and lebensraum weren't significant policies of the Italian and Spanish regimes. Hell, even the Hitlerite doctrine of fomenting unrest as a way to annex neighboring territories had more in common with the communists than with his fellow fascists.

---
*I mean, it probably is that bad, but I feel like fascism has never really gotten a good look. The idea barely got started, before Hitler got hold of it. Now everybody just takes it for granted that fascism = Nazism, and doesn't give it any more thought than that.
 

Back
Top Bottom