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Tags police incidents , police issues , police misconduct charges , Portland incidents , Portland issues , protest incidents , protest issues

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Old 18th July 2020, 09:19 PM   #161
BobTheCoward
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Originally Posted by TahiniBinShawarma View Post
By your definition every LEO is unidentified simply by using an unmarked car. Also, you ignore the statement of what actually happened.
Yes, they are unidentified in that situation.
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Old 18th July 2020, 09:22 PM   #162
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Originally Posted by SuburbanTurkey View Post
Short of a mass uprising of armed Portlanders, anyone that tries to intervene with a gun is likely to face a violent death.
Worst idea of the month. Should shooting start, Trump and all his evil doers will have full justification for the most extreme tactics. They could arrest anyone with opposable thumbs on no pretext whatsoever and "disappear" them with no constitutional rights whatsoever.

No, this has to be fought from the moral high ground. Anything else will ensure the bad guys win.
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Old 18th July 2020, 09:25 PM   #163
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Originally Posted by Belz... View Post
Er... do these people actually disappear or do they pop back up? The first one we heard about a month or two ago reappeared just fine.
I completely disagree. They may not have been physically harmed but that's not the only harm possible. For example, they may be intimidated into not protesting any more. Also, the constitution has been severely harmed in the process.

Last edited by SezMe; 18th July 2020 at 09:26 PM.
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Old 18th July 2020, 09:28 PM   #164
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Originally Posted by BobTheCoward View Post
These officers do not appear to be violating any laws.
Assumes fact not in evidence.
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Old 18th July 2020, 09:29 PM   #165
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The one time they wouldn't look like idiots for wearing balaclavas, and they can't bother with face masks for the pre-operation schmoozing session (or whatever it was). They wore them when it was time to look bad-ass ****.
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Old 18th July 2020, 09:39 PM   #166
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Originally Posted by Fast Eddie B View Post
I don’t know how common it is, but as a deputy sheriff I was often dispatched to provide “uniform presence”. That was so a marked car would identify that a raid by SWAT or whoever was “official”.

I have heard of the FBI. They often wear jackets that coincidentally say FBI in large letters. They also tend to produce ID to confirm who they represent, and their names. Always? I can’t say, but pretty sure that’s SOP across many departments.
Now you're grasping at straws.
Lots of people are arrested every day by cops who do not wear identifiable insignias and drive unmarked police vehicles.
As a member of the RCMP I worked in major crimes which was a plain clothes unit. You can bet your sweet bippy I arrested a lot of people while not wearing an identifying insignia or nametag, and drove an unmarked car.

Please provide verified evidence that these alleged law enforcement personnel this thread is referring to are not identifying themselves as law enforcement officers when detaining or arresting someone.
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Last edited by rockinkt; 18th July 2020 at 09:52 PM.
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Old 18th July 2020, 09:49 PM   #167
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Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger View Post
Plainclothes and undercover cops don't usually constitute an armed force in camo with unmarked vans.

When the FBI raids a location they have FBI clearly marked on their jackets or shirts. There's a big difference.

So what?
Please provide the law which states that police in the US cannot wear whatever their department authorizes them to wear?
The police only have a legal requirement to identify themselves as police or whatever their agency is to the people they are directly interacting with which includes detaining or arresting.
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Last edited by rockinkt; 18th July 2020 at 10:14 PM.
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Old 18th July 2020, 09:55 PM   #168
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Originally Posted by BobTheCoward View Post
I think on this issue im galaxy brain libertarian
That may well be but your not fluent in the use of the English language.
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Old 18th July 2020, 09:57 PM   #169
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Originally Posted by TahiniBinShawarma View Post
Only the whole "unidentified" isn't true.
What are the red circles in the first image suppose to indicate?
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Old 18th July 2020, 10:00 PM   #170
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I'm having trouble identifying the weapons these hoons are carrying. Looks like grenade launchers. HK MP5s? Specialized pepper spray squirters? Can anyone spot ARs?

Ugly business.
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Old 18th July 2020, 10:11 PM   #171
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Is there an actual law in the US - not policy - that a police officer must immediately give their name when asked by any citizen under all circumstances?

I am pretty sure there is either law or case law that law enforcement personnel must identify themselves as police or peace officers and name their agency - if time permits - during an arrest or detainment if they are not in regular uniform.
I don't think there is any actual law that negates the arrest or action taken by the police officer if they do not give their personal name or badge number immediately upon request.
The way a lot of people are carrying on it sounds like they think there must be. So - if one of you could provide a link to the law - please do so.

In Canada - we are only legally bound to state that we are police in order to make an arrest or detain someone if "time and circumstances permit".
"Police. You're under arrest".
Individual names of the police officers are not required until the paperwork starts.
The fact that a "policy" has been in effect for decades that we must provide our name and rank to a citizen who requests it does not mean that it is a law that negates our actions or provides the defence with a legal advantage.
In other words - I can arrest someone and not give my name during the arrest even through the perp and his ten friends are yelling for it.
I may get a zinger from my boss for not following policy - but it is not going to have any legal implications or repercussions as far as the charges that are laid against the individual I arrested.
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Old 18th July 2020, 11:20 PM   #172
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Originally Posted by rockinkt View Post
Is there an actual law in the US - not policy - that a police officer must immediately give their name when asked by any citizen under all circumstances?

I am pretty sure there is either law or case law that law enforcement personnel must identify themselves as police or peace officers and name their agency - if time permits - during an arrest or detainment if they are not in regular uniform.
I don't think there is any actual law that negates the arrest or action taken by the police officer if they do not give their personal name or badge number immediately upon request.
The way a lot of people are carrying on it sounds like they think there must be. So - if one of you could provide a link to the law - please do so.

In Canada - we are only legally bound to state that we are police in order to make an arrest or detain someone if "time and circumstances permit".
"Police. You're under arrest".
Individual names of the police officers are not required until the paperwork starts.
The fact that a "policy" has been in effect for decades that we must provide our name and rank to a citizen who requests it does not mean that it is a law that negates our actions or provides the defence with a legal advantage.
In other words - I can arrest someone and not give my name during the arrest even through the perp and his ten friends are yelling for it.
I may get a zinger from my boss for not following policy - but it is not going to have any legal implications or repercussions as far as the charges that are laid against the individual I arrested.
Does Canada have an alphabet soup of agencies with various jurisdictions operating under different laws carrying out crowd-control operations without identifying even the agency they work for?
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Old 19th July 2020, 02:44 AM   #173
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Originally Posted by TahiniBinShawarma View Post
Only the whole "unidentified" isn't true.
These are not the ones snatching people off the streets.
There are plenty of videos of unidentified men in combat uniforms taking people away in unmarked vehicles.
Posting pictures of different men in uniforms doesn't help your case.
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Old 19th July 2020, 02:46 AM   #174
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Originally Posted by rockinkt View Post
Now you're grasping at straws.
Lots of people are arrested every day by cops who do not wear identifiable insignias and drive unmarked police vehicles.
As a member of the RCMP I worked in major crimes which was a plain clothes unit. You can bet your sweet bippy I arrested a lot of people while not wearing an identifying insignia or nametag, and drove an unmarked car.

Please provide verified evidence that these alleged law enforcement personnel this thread is referring to are not identifying themselves as law enforcement officers when detaining or arresting someone.
Actual video of it happening?
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Old 19th July 2020, 04:18 AM   #175
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Originally Posted by SezMe View Post
I completely disagree. They may not have been physically harmed but that's not the only harm possible. For example, they may be intimidated into not protesting any more. Also, the constitution has been severely harmed in the process.
Once again I didn't mean "completely unharmed". I just meant that they did, actually, reappear.

So that's my question: do we know what happened to these other people who were taken away? Where they charged with something? Released on bail? Detained?
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Old 19th July 2020, 05:05 AM   #176
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Originally Posted by SezMe View Post
What are the red circles in the first image suppose to indicate?
That they completed their Securing the Homeland merit badges.
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Old 19th July 2020, 05:11 AM   #177
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Originally Posted by Captain_Swoop View Post
These are not the ones snatching people off the streets.
There are plenty of videos of unidentified men in combat uniforms taking people away in unmarked vehicles.
Posting pictures of different men in uniforms doesn't help your case.
The video I saw had a woman asking the camo-wearing _______* who they were, and asking them to “use their words” to clarify what the subject was under arrest for. As far as I could see, they remained silent, and I saw no insignias as they threw him into a van and drove off. I would certainly want to know what a friend was under arrest for, and under whose authority.


*I left that blank after struggling to find an appropriate word. Are they law enforcement officers? Soldiers? Federal Agents? Militia? Vigilantes? Death Squads? Sure, that last one is a reach, but I’m sure it was in the beginning in the countries where such actually did come to pass.
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Old 19th July 2020, 06:46 AM   #178
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Trump tweeted

We are trying to help Portland, not hurt it. Their leadership has, for months, lost control of the anarchists and agitators. They are missing in action. We must protect Federal property, AND OUR PEOPLE. These were not merely protesters, these are the real deal!
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Old 19th July 2020, 06:49 AM   #179
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Originally Posted by Captain_Swoop View Post
Trump tweeted

We are trying to help Portland, not hurt it. Their leadership has, for months, lost control of the anarchists and agitators. They are missing in action. We must protect Federal property, AND OUR PEOPLE. These were not merely protesters, these are the real deal!
Trump: ....must...paint...liberal..urban...areas....as... warzones!
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Old 19th July 2020, 06:54 AM   #180
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Constitutional schmonstitutional. I barely care, in that I'm forced to recognize that the constitution is bull **** that depends on the honor system. And when there's no honor, it's a suicide pact.

So even if it is constitutional, this is one more step -- a bold step -- in the direction of thuggish authoritarianism.
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Old 19th July 2020, 07:26 AM   #181
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Originally Posted by uke2se View Post
Does Canada have an alphabet soup of agencies with various jurisdictions operating under different laws carrying out crowd-control operations without identifying even the agency they work for?
We don't tend to have as much sprawl in our law enforcement agencies. Off the top of my head, agencies with arrest powers go something like this:

RCMP and Ministry of Natural Resources officers and our CBSA (Canada Border Services Agency)

Provincial Police (for example in Ontario, the O.P.P)

Regional Police Services. These tend to cover an area that may include several cities and some surrounding rural areas. Provincial police can often be seen doing highway enforcement on major highways that pass through the region, but it would be rare to see a provincial officer attend say, a domestic dispute call, within the city/regional jurisdiction. They have the jurisdiction to do so, it's just not common that I have seen. Provincial police will conduct operations and investigations such as large scale drug busts or something within a city or regional area, but they don't really do any uniformed, front line type policing other than highway patrol usually in those areas.


City police services where there is no regional service. This would usually be a city of 20 thousand or more.

There are some private type police services that employ Special Constables such as campus police services. But even then, they operate under the auspice of the local police service. Their authority and training and operating parameters come under the umbrella of the whatever local police service, usually a regional service.

There is also the CN Police. This is Candada's largest private police service. The cover CN Railway property. Not sure why they have a private police service, but they have done so as long as I can remember.

There are also some places that have sworn special constables that do security. For example, Toronto City Hall security were recently sworn as special constables.

GO Transit also has an enforcement team that are sworn as special constables.

There are also what are known as PON officers. They have the power to issue citations for violations of provincial laws. For example, in Ontario the Liquor License Act covers alcohol infractions. Provincial Offence Notifications can be handed out by these officers. You will see these at conservation areas and beaches, etc in the summer time.

Some special constables are employed by regular police services. For example, the city I grew up in hires four post secondary students every summer as Park Patrol (I did this one summer, it was a blast). You are trained very briefly in the relevant procedure and laws and then given a badge, a uniform, ticket book, hand cuffs and a dirt bike. You spend your day driving around busting up bush parties. You write a lot of tickets for drinking in public or drinking under age. Being sworn as a special constable allows you to make arrests for non indictable offences, such as failing to id under the liquor licence act. A citizen could not make a similar arrest.

Most court services officers are special constables in their local police service. Not to be confused with auxiliary police who are volunteers and have no powers to write tickets.

We do have Sherrifs departments. I believe they mostly do court type services such as delivering summons and such. I don't believe they have any powers of arrest.


Special Constables do not carry firearms that I have ever seen or heard of, though they do have arrest and ticketing powers.




I'm not sure if CSIS has arrest powers or not. Military Police would be a different story as well.

Last edited by dmaker; 19th July 2020 at 07:36 AM.
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Old 19th July 2020, 08:39 AM   #182
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Originally Posted by rockinkt View Post
Now you're grasping at straws.
Lots of people are arrested every day by cops who do not wear identifiable insignias and drive unmarked police vehicles.
As a member of the RCMP I worked in major crimes which was a plain clothes unit. You can bet your sweet bippy I arrested a lot of people while not wearing an identifying insignia or nametag, and drove an unmarked car.

Please provide verified evidence that these alleged law enforcement personnel this thread is referring to are not identifying themselves as law enforcement officers when detaining or arresting someone.
You were in your jurisdiction. The kidnappers that the Feds are using are operating outside any Constitutional jurisdiction.
They should be met with all force necessary to stop them.
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Old 19th July 2020, 08:57 AM   #183
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Originally Posted by autumn1971 View Post
You were in your jurisdiction. The kidnappers that the Feds are using are operating outside any Constitutional jurisdiction.
They should be met with all force necessary to stop them.
It appears the US government has jurisdiction to enforce the US code in the US. That is ostensibly what they are doing.
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Old 19th July 2020, 10:11 AM   #184
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Originally Posted by BobTheCoward View Post
It appears the US government has jurisdiction to enforce the US code in the US. That is ostensibly what they are doing.
Not outside of their jurisdiction. You are arguing that peaceful protesters not on federal property can be detained on suspicion of possibly damaging federal property at an unspecified future time.

Bad libertarian! No treat!
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Old 19th July 2020, 10:16 AM   #185
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Originally Posted by autumn1971 View Post
Not outside of their jurisdiction. You are arguing that peaceful protesters not on federal property can be detained on suspicion of possibly damaging federal property at an unspecified future time.

Bad libertarian! No treat!
40 U.S. Code § 1315 authorizes it. Don't get angry at me for pointing out what crap laws authorize.

Also, as a libertarian, I oppose government regulation as overreach. I would be more inclined than you to conclude a government regulation overreaches and say that it does authorize detention of people off federal property.

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Old 19th July 2020, 10:39 AM   #186
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I wonder if some of the people being harassed could all put on their coolest tactical gear, and confuse the **** out of the amalgamated federal forces in cool tactical gear.
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Old 19th July 2020, 10:50 AM   #187
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Originally Posted by Minoosh View Post
I wonder if some of the people being harassed could all put on their coolest tactical gear, and confuse th6e **** out of the amalgamated federal forces in cool tactical gear.
Truth. Being decked out in full BDUs with their only ID being hard-to-even-see small camo'ed arm patches is essentially going stealth. Which doesn't even make sense. Were they hiding
from the protesters, and unidentifyability some kind of asset?

When you are in the legal right, you don't need to be so anonymous. It's only when breaking the law that you hide your ID.
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Old 19th July 2020, 10:59 AM   #188
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What is happening in my city at night now is disgusting. These are not the peaceful protesters we see during the day. They are a destructive mob who are burning and looting. This mob is not about police brutality or George Floyd. Mayor Wheeler, who completely supports the BLM peaceful protests, is as disgusted with these criminals as much as I am. They are doing BLM great harm. They are only giving Trump justification for sending in federal troops.
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Old 19th July 2020, 11:06 AM   #189
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As the situation worsens for Benito Bonespurs and his gang, this is the kind of desperation we can expect. Our Bob has used the word "overreach," and just in time, for once.

Churchill once wrote, "It is much easier to infuriate Americans than it is to cow them."

IQ45 never read that, naturally, and so he'll have to learn it.

That's why I feel rather more encouraged than otherwise by events in Portland. Just watch: our flabby excuse for a Pinochet will haver and babble, and soon back down.

Or maybe he'll send for the Mounties. The Ore Say Imm Pay share his attitude toward uppity civilians, and they're not, repeat NOT the slightly comical straight arrows Americans like to think.

See my location? Closer to Canadia than some Canadiums, and we know the Moonties and their little ways from heap long time ago.
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Old 19th July 2020, 11:13 AM   #190
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Originally Posted by SezMe View Post
What were the Portland mayor and police doing that justified this action?
Nothing, while their citizens were getting beaten and their property destroyed by terrorists.

Again

and again

Two incidents ago, around 2016 I think, there were piles of videos from left and right begging the police to come do something and the police saying they had been told to stand down as people were being pulled out of their cars and beaten.

The idea that the portland police will be deployed to protect their citizens from armed gangsters is laughable
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Old 19th July 2020, 06:10 PM   #191
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Trump is claiming he saved Portland.

Reports on the ground are that the federal troops caused a backlash making it worse.

NPR: Protests Grow On 52nd Night As Portland Responds To Federal Officers
Quote:
"Do not let our people get taken out here. This is dangerous. I don't know why they haven't come out yet," said demonstrator Teal Lindseth, referring to federal officers. "Normally they would have. And it's because there's a big a** group out here."
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Old 19th July 2020, 07:43 PM   #192
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Originally Posted by rockinkt View Post
So what?
Please provide the law which states that police in the US cannot wear whatever their department authorizes them to wear?
The police only have a legal requirement to identify themselves as police or whatever their agency is to the people they are directly interacting with which includes detaining or arresting.
If you did so without a badge or refused to provide a badge number you violated RCMP policy and in most provinces you violated the law as well.
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Old 19th July 2020, 09:12 PM   #193
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As an aside, the Lincoln Project has weighed in on Portland.
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Old 20th July 2020, 02:35 AM   #194
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https://www.reddit.com/r/PublicFreak..._a_tyrannical/


This is terrifying.
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Old 20th July 2020, 02:46 AM   #195
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Beau of the Fifth Coloumn has been talking about doing things by "the manual" latelly, and I wasn't quite sure what he meant. Apparently he's been referring to a field manual on counterinsurgency (FM3-24) that the US Army uses. He theorises (unless I misunderstood him) that the feds might be doing what they're doing to escalate the situation.

Originally Posted by Aridas View Post
As an aside, the Lincoln Project has weighed in on Portland.
I watched that. Very chilling.
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Old 20th July 2020, 02:57 AM   #196
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Originally Posted by lomiller View Post
If you did so without a badge or refused to provide a badge number you violated RCMP policy and in most provinces you violated the law as well.
If no one is willing to enforce the law then the law is worthless.
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Old 20th July 2020, 03:07 AM   #197
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From the Lincoln Project vid comments thread:

Quote:
"Don't make me repeat myself."

-History
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Old 20th July 2020, 04:07 AM   #198
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Originally Posted by smartcooky View Post
Rubbish! Unidentified means they do not have name badges or badge numbers.

The US is slowly but surely becoming a Police State. With Trump being so enamoured with dictators and the authoritarian leaders of other Police States, this should not come as a surprise to anyone.

Compare where you are with civil rights, treatment of minorities and Trump's defiance of the Law now, with where you were in, say 2016. I warned back in 2018 that Americans were being softened up for this sort of thing. I would not at all be surprised if Trump tried declaring a national state of emergency to delay the November election.
There is nothing slow about it.

Really, the USA has always been a police state, regardless of their claims of ‘freedom”. They are just not bothering to conceal it now.
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Old 20th July 2020, 04:25 AM   #199
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Originally Posted by SezMe View Post
Worst idea of the month. Should shooting start, Trump and all his evil doers will have full justification for the most extreme tactics. They could arrest anyone with opposable thumbs on no pretext whatsoever and "disappear" them with no constitutional rights whatsoever.

No, this has to be fought from the moral high ground. Anything else will ensure the bad guys win.
That wasn't really a practical solution or advice, but rather a thought experiment. I tend to agree with you that the mostly peaceful and unarmed crowd is winning hearts and minds when video of them being brutalized by the police hit the public.

The extremely one-sided violence against the protesting crowds is having a tremendous effect in the city. Crowds are growing, not shrinking. It's not just young, black-clad leftists getting gassed and beat anymore. More and more of the city is acting out in revulsion to these Gestapo tactics.

It's almost a scene directly out of the 60's, where ordinary people wearing their Sunday best were set upon by racist Southern cops. We're already seeing things like the Navy vet have his bones broken by thuggish cops, or lines of middle aged moms getting gassed.
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Old 20th July 2020, 04:40 AM   #200
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Originally Posted by Steve View Post
There is nothing slow about it.

Really, the USA has always been a police state, regardless of their claims of ‘freedom”. They are just not bothering to conceal it now.
The Americans' inflated view of their own liberty has always been a bit silly.
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