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Tags police incidents , police issues , police misconduct charges , Portland incidents , Portland issues , protest incidents , protest issues

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Old 23rd July 2020, 11:27 AM   #281
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Originally Posted by rockinkt View Post
I guess you have never heard of the FBI. They drive unmarked cars and do not have insignias on their clothing.
For that matter - neither do state cops or city cops or county cops or town cops who are working plainclothes. I won't even get into undercover officers.
Your pearls must be all worn out after all that clutching...
I'm not seeing how that makes it less terrifying if one's child is whisked away...
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Old 23rd July 2020, 11:40 AM   #282
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Originally Posted by Mumbles View Post
Can't work. First, when police get violent, people - duh - stop calling them and start pulling their guns and knives to settle disputes, as you said. That's especially true when the cops are so busy attacking people at random that they can't investigate serious crimes or offer witness protection - partly because they're often the criminals in question. Second, nowhere near enough officers to make much different being sent out. Third, he's very obviously targeting democratic cities at random, rather than responding to the most violent cities and towns.

The simple truth is that it's hot, it's summer, and lots of people are spending all damn day inside and out of work. Wanna lower it? Solve the pandemic get people back to work, and reform policing massively - or at the very least offer better unemployment and support for small businesses.
Absolutely.
An underappreciated cause of the unrest IMO. Having lots of young people without outlets for their energy has been a cause of problems for every civilization that has found itself in that predicament.

ETA. Please, lets not try to solve it with another land war in Asia.
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Old 23rd July 2020, 12:04 PM   #283
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Originally Posted by Distracted1 View Post
Absolutely.
An underappreciated cause of the unrest IMO. Having lots of young people without outlets for their energy has been a cause of problems for every civilization that has found itself in that predicament.

ETA. Please, lets not try to solve it with another land war in Asia.
Where are we at with going against a Sicilian when death is on the line?
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Old 23rd July 2020, 12:44 PM   #284
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Originally Posted by Thermal View Post
Right, but the renter's name need not be the operator or occupants' name. I have driven and been a passenger in rented vehicles without being IDed.

So the DA theoretically has a name on a credit card from some party who rented on behalf of the Executive Branch. Should be pretty simple to show no criminal liability on the renter's part. If the listed driver does not look like the driver in a vid of one of these street grabs, who does the DA go after, and for what?

eta: that's why this lack of badge number and name thing is such a problem. You have no warm body to blame with out of town/state agents that no one recognizes of unclear affiliation. You see a camo badge from the Border Patrol in a pic? Great. What do you do with that?
Well, you would have a conspiracy charge to level at the renter at a minimum. See if he rolls to avoid a felony charge.

Plus, if the feds wanted to cut bait, they have all sorts of charges they could level. Letting someone else drive the vehicle violates various regulations. Also, oddly enough, it's a violation to put a non-fed in the car. In fact, there are some regulations about driving around other feds not in your party.
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Old 23rd July 2020, 01:11 PM   #285
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Originally Posted by Leftus View Post
Well, you would have a conspiracy charge to level at the renter at a minimum. See if he rolls to avoid a felony charge.

Plus, if the feds wanted to cut bait, they have all sorts of charges they could level. Letting someone else drive the vehicle violates various regulations. Also, oddly enough, it's a violation to put a non-fed in the car. In fact, there are some regulations about driving around other feds not in your party.
They could. I doubt they'd go anywhere. For instance, the renter of record was presumably under orders to rent a minivan on behalf of the Executive Branch. I'd love to hear how this pencil-pusher is going to be argued into being a conspirator
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Old 23rd July 2020, 01:15 PM   #286
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Originally Posted by Thermal View Post
They could. I doubt they'd go anywhere. For instance, the renter of record was presumably under orders to rent a minivan on behalf of the Executive Branch. I'd love to hear how this pencil-pusher is going to be argued into being a conspirator
And seriously since when have the police been held accountable for false imprisonment at any level? Like when whistleblower cop Adrian Schoolcraft was committed to an asylum illegally there was just a settlement not any kind of silly criminal charges for wrongful imprisonment.

What next hold US troops who tortured people accountable for only following orders? Not in america you don't.
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Old 23rd July 2020, 01:52 PM   #287
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Originally Posted by ponderingturtle View Post
And seriously since when have the police been held accountable for false imprisonment at any level? Like when whistleblower cop Adrian Schoolcraft was committed to an asylum illegally there was just a settlement not any kind of silly criminal charges for wrongful imprisonment.

What next hold US troops who tortured people accountable for only following orders? Not in america you don't.
The critical point here is that the Feds at least claim that they had probable cause, and the US Code that they cited does at least give them some legal justification to carry out "investigations" without the need of a warrant according to 40 U.S. Code § 1315

Quote:
(2E)conduct investigations, on and off the property in question, of offenses that may have been committed against property owned or occupied by the Federal Government or persons on the property; and
(2F)carry out such other activities for the promotion of homeland security as the Secretary may prescribe.
The suspect wanted for questioning was wanted for questioning in connection to attacks on Federal officers that sustained possible permanent injuries from the attack. They claimed that the suspect was specifically monitored, and apprehended in a manner that was meant to reduce injury to themselves and the protesters.


Now, there is a lot to unpack there, and certainly that is based on the, um, accuracy of the DHS account, but there are quite a number of assumptions, including ones made on this thread that would be discounted based on that information.

Specifically the claims in the media that he was randomly targeted. Even from the protester videos, it was clear that he was a specific target for the 20 minute questioning.
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Old 23rd July 2020, 03:29 PM   #288
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Originally Posted by fishbob View Post
Gestapo.
More than that, Einsatzgruppen.
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Old 23rd July 2020, 03:40 PM   #289
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Originally Posted by Thermal View Post
Right, but the renter's name need not be the operator or occupants' name. I have driven and been a passenger in rented vehicles without being IDed.

So the DA theoretically has a name on a credit card from some party who rented on behalf of the Executive Branch. Should be pretty simple to show no criminal liability on the renter's part. If the listed driver does not look like the driver in a vid of one of these street grabs, who does the DA go after, and for what?

eta: that's why this lack of badge number and name thing is such a problem. You have no warm body to blame with out of town/state agents that no one recognizes of unclear affiliation. You see a camo badge from the Border Patrol in a pic? Great. What do you do with that?
And it makes no ******* sense. What are they hiding? We know they're feds. Are they worried they'll be harassed off-duty?
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Old 23rd July 2020, 03:45 PM   #290
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Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger View Post
And it makes no ******* sense. What are they hiding? We know they're feds. Are they worried they'll be harassed off-duty?
No clue as to veracity or accuracy, but according to the thing posted by Tahini-person earlier in this thread, yes, that's exactly what the concern is. It says "The names of the agents were not displayed due to recent doxxing incidents against law enforcement personnel"
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Old 23rd July 2020, 03:47 PM   #291
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Originally Posted by Thermal View Post
Where are we at with going against a Sicilian when death is on the line?
That's still only slightly less well-known.
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Old 23rd July 2020, 04:11 PM   #292
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Originally Posted by Emily's Cat View Post
No clue as to veracity or accuracy, but according to the thing posted by Tahini-person earlier in this thread, yes, that's exactly what the concern is. It says "The names of the agents were not displayed due to recent doxxing incidents against law enforcement personnel"
They could have still had identifying numbers and agencies.

So I'm not buying it as more than an excuse.
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Old 23rd July 2020, 04:29 PM   #293
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Originally Posted by Emily's Cat View Post
I'm not seeing how that makes it less terrifying if one's child is whisked away...
You make it sound like a guerrilla death squad. How silly and over dramatic.
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Old 23rd July 2020, 05:02 PM   #294
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Originally Posted by rockinkt View Post
You make it sound like a guerrilla death squad. How silly and over dramatic.
Even if *they* aren't (and they certainly act like a guerrilla squad), what's to stop some pack of random idiots from dressing up and pulling the same stunt?
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Old 23rd July 2020, 05:09 PM   #295
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Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger View Post
They could have still had identifying numbers and agencies.

So I'm not buying it as more than an excuse.
They did have identifiable agencies.
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Old 23rd July 2020, 05:10 PM   #296
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Originally Posted by rockinkt View Post
You make it sound like a guerrilla death squad. How silly and over dramatic.
I would very much like to understand how you inferred this from what I've posted.
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Old 23rd July 2020, 06:58 PM   #297
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Breaking news:
Judge restricts force federal officers can use in Portland [Oregon Public Broadcasting]
Quote:
U.S. District Judge Michael H. Simon has temporarily curbed the use of force by federal officers deployed to Portland, restricting their interactions with legal observers and journalists observing nightly protests against police violence.
This is good news in my opinion.

ETA: it doesn't go far enough, only restricting actions journalists or legal observers.

Last edited by portlandatheist; 23rd July 2020 at 07:03 PM.
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Old 23rd July 2020, 07:01 PM   #298
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Originally Posted by Craig4 View Post
...Gestapo
It's your choice whatever you want to call them, but that is pretty insulting to the actual victims of the Gestapo.

Plus if people cry wolf too often, that will reduce people's attention if Trump actually does release a Gestapo force.


I am certainly not going to deny that the FSP/CBP have engaged in egregious abuses of force, and should absolutely be held accountable. I also would agree that the arguments from National Democratic leaders that they are not trained for this mission and should not be there are absolutely true as well.

HOWEVER, the only reason they are there is because Mayor Wheeler abandoned the few FSP officers on the site at the Courthouse that were being attacked every single day. Wheeler knew that, and he purposefully set up the conditions for sustained and serious attacks against them. Wheeler has refused any of their requests from them to help deescalate the situation, and is willfully using the violence that he himself created for personal gain.

That creation of violence against his own constituents for political theater is really is no better than Trump, and there is no reason that he should be getting a free pass for it.


The CBP/FSP would be more than happy to stay inside the courthouse if they were not being attacked every single night. Their officers have sustained serious and permanent injuries, and as bad as both sides have been, it is important to note that the Mayor could stop it at any point if he actually wanted that to occur.

Remember that THESE ARE THE SAME PROTESTORS THAT A MONTH AGO IN PORTLAND, BLOCKED THE EMERGENCY EXITS TO A BUILDING AND SET FIRE TO IT WITH PEOPLE INSIDE.

That violent attack from the largely white protesters occurred before they went on to loot and destroy nearby black owned businesses. Despite the cries from black leaders to stop their senseless violence and damage that they were doing to the BLM movement, they did not stop.

So go ahead and call the CBP the Gestapo. Many of their actions have been deplorable and should be condemned. Just realize that this whole situation was purposefully set up by the Mayor to get that exact type of reaction out of people like you to use for his own political ends. While everyone who has suffered or put in the hospital are just useful pawns in his game.
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Old 23rd July 2020, 07:39 PM   #299
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Originally Posted by HoverBoarder View Post
Then they can go find those people, instead of attacking and kidnapping random people just walking around. You know, like actual cops are *supposed* to do? That thing that destroys police/community relations and leads to the violence they're supposedly there to prevent?

Last edited by Mumbles; 23rd July 2020 at 07:43 PM.
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Old 23rd July 2020, 07:56 PM   #300
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Originally Posted by Mumbles View Post
Then they can go find those people, instead of attacking and kidnapping random people just walking around. You know, like actual cops are *supposed* to do? That thing that destroys police/community relations and leads to the violence they're supposedly there to prevent?
OK sure, convince Mayor Wheeler who is also the Portland Police commissioner that he should direct the Portland police force to arrest them than. Good luck with that.
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Old 23rd July 2020, 08:10 PM   #301
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Originally Posted by HoverBoarder View Post
That isn't what "same" means.
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Old 23rd July 2020, 08:16 PM   #302
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Originally Posted by BobTheCoward View Post
That isn't what "same" means.
You think they went away to sip tea, and watch the rest of this peacefully on TV?
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Old 23rd July 2020, 08:17 PM   #303
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Originally Posted by HoverBoarder View Post
OK sure, convince Mayor Wheeler who is also the Portland Police commissioner that he should direct the Portland police force to arrest them than. Good luck with that.
I didn't say I had the slightest confidence in either Wheeler, or Dolt 45's thugs. But i've stayed telling y'all that we already knowhow to prevent protests from turning violent, and these jackasses invariably refuse to follow this basic advise and turn violent, and then act shocked when the entire town shows up and returns the favor. That's why I laughed when Wheeler got gassed last night and started whining about how badly it stung.

Uh, yeah, that's what people have been telling him, and why they were screaming obscenities at him.
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Old 23rd July 2020, 08:37 PM   #304
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Originally Posted by HoverBoarder View Post
You think they went away to sip tea, and watch the rest of this peacefully on TV?
so you are guessing they are the same.
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Old 23rd July 2020, 08:47 PM   #305
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I have lived in or around the Portland and Seattle area my entire life. There are some tremendous people in both places, but there is also an incredibly strong Anarchists movement in both cities.

The Anarchists have often infiltrated marches or protests, and used it as an opportunity to start violence. However, they have never had an opportunity like this before, some have waited their whole lives for this kind of perfect storm opportunity. They have never been able to do so much damage with so much impunity. For them, 'BLM be damned, they are going to break some ****, and maybe even kill a few people in the process.'

The protesters who are actually there for real BLM racial justice change either don't have the will or ability to stop them. The leaders of both cities have been more than happy to give them a free pass to do pretty much whatever they want, because if they do try to stop them, it might be seen as an attack against the protesters as a whole.
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Old 23rd July 2020, 09:33 PM   #306
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Originally Posted by Mumbles View Post
Even if *they* aren't (and they certainly act like a guerrilla squad), what's to stop some pack of random idiots from dressing up and pulling the same stunt?
What stops people from dressing up as cops with name badges and doing the same? This isn’t a new possibility. Why wasn’t it a problem in the past? Because the upside is generally much smaller than the downside. What makes you think that changed?
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Old 23rd July 2020, 10:06 PM   #307
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Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
What stops people from dressing up as cops with name badges and doing the same? This isn’t a new possibility. Why wasn’t it a problem in the past? Because the upside is generally much smaller than the downside. What makes you think that changed?
A Portland Commisioner believes the opposite is true, that Portland Police are infiltrating the protesters, and are instigating all of the violence themselves. They are soooo sneaky in fact, that they could sneak into the middle of hundreds of protesters, and start violence and fires without their consent and knowledge, and than slip away unnoticed.

Originally Posted by Portland Commissioner Jo Ann Hardesty
I am old enough to remember that during the civil rights movement, the police had provocateurs…intentionally added to the group to do disruptive stuff,” says Hardesty, “I have no doubt in my mind, I believe with all my heart, that that is what Portland police are doing.”

Hardesty’s accusations go further: “I believe Portland Police [Bureau] is lying about the damage—or starting the fires themselves—so that they have justification for attacking community members.”
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Old 23rd July 2020, 10:39 PM   #308
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Originally Posted by HoverBoarder View Post
A Portland Commisioner believes the opposite is true, that Portland Police are infiltrating the protesters, and are instigating all of the violence themselves. They are soooo sneaky in fact, that they could sneak into the middle of hundreds of protesters, and start violence and fires without their consent and knowledge, and than slip away unnoticed.
She has backtracked her insane conspiracy theories. [kgw news]Nevertheless, it is obvious that she is doing everything she possibly can to fan the flames against the police.
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Old 23rd July 2020, 10:55 PM   #309
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Originally Posted by HoverBoarder View Post
... [snipped]

Remember that THESE ARE THE SAME PROTESTORS THAT A MONTH AGO IN PORTLAND, BLOCKED THE EMERGENCY EXITS TO A BUILDING AND SET FIRE TO IT WITH PEOPLE INSIDE.

That violent attack from the largely white protesters occurred before they went on to loot and destroy nearby black owned businesses. Despite the cries from black leaders to stop their senseless violence and damage that they were doing to the BLM movement, they did not stop.

So go ahead and call the CBP the Gestapo. Many of their actions have been deplorable and should be condemned. Just realize that this whole situation was purposefully set up by the Mayor to get that exact type of reaction out of people like you to use for his own political ends. While everyone who has suffered or put in the hospital are just useful pawns in his game.
This post is full of ******* ****. This is from your link.

Quote:
Police say a group of people set the Portland Police Bureau's North Precinct on fire while people were inside, and damaged and burned nearby businesses, all of which are owned by people of color, during an hours long clash with police officers. ....
It's not hard to find the rest of the story. USA Today:
Quote:
"As the crowd was dispersed, several people in the crowd were arrested and officers were able to extinguish the fire," Portland Police said Sunday in a statement. "Portland Police did not use any CS gas," a commonly used term for tear gas.
As for injuries:
Quote:
After protesters regrouped later at an intersection in North Portland, police said they tried to move the crowd south, when some "threw rocks, gopher gassers, and launched paint filled balloons at officers." Police said some officers were injured but did not provide specific details. ...

... Tensions also escalated after an officer with the Marshals Service fired a less-lethal round at a protester’s head on July 11, critically injuring him.
Looks like the seriously injured person was a protester, not a cop.
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Old 23rd July 2020, 10:58 PM   #310
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Originally Posted by portlandatheist View Post
She has backtracked her insane conspiracy theories. [kgw news]Nevertheless, it is obvious that she is doing everything she possibly can to fan the flames against the police.
Yeah, I saw that, but it definitely seemed forced. About as genuine as Senator's Ted Yoho's apology/non-apology for verbally accosting AOC.

Kind of a "sigh... if I have to."
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Old 23rd July 2020, 11:02 PM   #311
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Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger View Post
This post is full of ******* ****. This is from your link.

It's not hard to find the rest of the story. USA Today:

As for injuries: Looks like the seriously injured person was a protester, not a cop.
Is it not a good thing that no one died?????? Usually blocking the fire exits and setting fire to the building is seen as pretty horrific case of attempted murder, or straight up murder if they are successful.

That is the same tactic carried out by Cartels in Mexico. With pretty grisly results. Certainly not something that I would think anyone would really want to defend.
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Old 23rd July 2020, 11:12 PM   #312
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Originally Posted by HoverBoarder View Post
A Portland Commisioner believes the opposite is true, that Portland Police are infiltrating the protesters, and are instigating all of the violence themselves. They are soooo sneaky in fact, that they could sneak into the middle of hundreds of protesters, and start violence and fires without their consent and knowledge, and than slip away unnoticed.
Wouldn't shock me - not an unheard of tactic, as she said - but I like evidence instead of speculation.
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Old 23rd July 2020, 11:58 PM   #313
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Originally Posted by fishbob View Post
Gestapo.
...You're not quite the only one to make that association.

Gestapo Trump ad on Youtube

Originally Posted by portlandatheist View Post
Breaking news:
Judge restricts force federal officers can use in Portland [Oregon Public Broadcasting]

This is good news in my opinion.

ETA: it doesn't go far enough, only restricting actions journalists or legal observers.
I'm in agreement with you there.

Originally Posted by HoverBoarder View Post
OK sure, convince Mayor Wheeler who is also the Portland Police commissioner that he should direct the Portland police force to arrest them than. Good luck with that.
And to ban tear gas use finally while he's at it, if I've heard correctly? Either way, maybe he'll see the light, at least a little more, now that he's been tear gassed.
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Old 24th July 2020, 12:09 AM   #314
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Originally Posted by HoverBoarder View Post
A Portland Commisioner believes the opposite is true, that Portland Police are infiltrating the protesters, and are instigating all of the violence themselves. They are soooo sneaky in fact, that they could sneak into the middle of hundreds of protesters, and start violence and fires without their consent and knowledge, and than slip away unnoticed.
Hmm? It doesn't take much to be "sneaky." Just dress up in normal or dark clothes without any police identification, wear a mask (like they should be anyways these days), and act as a provocateur. While not necessarily a official "standard" tactic, it's been used plenty of times across the country, as far as I can tell, albeit more normally to create justification to break up a peaceful protest or to create justification for an immediate assault on protestors.

Originally Posted by portlandatheist View Post
She has backtracked her insane conspiracy theories. [kgw news]Nevertheless, it is obvious that she is doing everything she possibly can to fan the flames against the police.
Originally Posted by Mumbles View Post
Wouldn't shock me - not an unheard of tactic, as she said - but I like evidence instead of speculation.
I'm with Mumbles on this... given the reported and really obvious behavior of police officers at various peaceful protests even in this recent spate alone, it's not even remotely an "insane conspiracy theory." Actual evidence is still very much needed before accusing them of actually doing such, though.
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Old 24th July 2020, 12:28 AM   #315
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Originally Posted by Aridas View Post
...You're not quite the only one to make that association.

Gestapo Trump ad on Youtube
Wow, they have very good videos. I just watched the rest of them.


Trump is a crazy madman, who is more that willing to sacrifice American lives on a whim. I suppose that my worry is that given how bad he has been, I do not see him having a problem with releasing an actual Gestapo force. I think that if he were ever to be re-elected, that possibility could be incredibly high.

I worried early on that if he carried out his earlier pledges on getting rid of every single illegal immigrant in this country, that he would need to have large camps and a force incredibly loyal to him to carry out large raids even at the objection of Mayors and Governors.

If he were to be re-elected, I could see a force a lot more similar to the North Korean or Syrian secret police where they abduct people and use power drill to drill holes in their bodies, or all kinds of terrible tortures. Trump has no problem with torture, or killing Americans, and I believe that he would do that if he could. Conditions that could easily lead to a Civil war.

What he is doing now is terrible, but if people overuse terms like that, the Nation would be less prepared if it actually did happen.


Originally Posted by Aridas View Post
And to ban tear gas use finally while he's at it, if I've heard correctly? Either way, maybe he'll see the light, at least a little more, now that he's been tear gassed.
That was a pretty lame political stunt by Wheeler. He is purposefully setting up the conditions for violence to occur, and refusing to take steps that would easily deescalate the situation.

He is setting up the situation where he knows violence will absolutely occur from both sides, and acting shocked, shocked, SHOCKED when it does. Frankly I find it disgusting, and really no better than Trump, who is doing the exact same thing.
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Old 24th July 2020, 01:48 AM   #316
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Originally Posted by BobTheCoward View Post
That isn't what "same" means.
Indeed. Seeing a protest crowd as one amorphous thing is a basic mistake that police had to unlearn to deal with football hooliganism in Europe and de-escalate riots too. There's an excellent recent episode of The Life Scientific which interviews an academic who studies the psychology of such crowds.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sounds/play/m000k2l3 (don't know whether link will work outside UK, sorry)

The kernel is that most of the crowd see themselves as peaceful protesters exercising their rights. If the police see the event as becoming unruly they act against the crowd to disperse it, but since the protesters don't see themselves in that way they do see what appears to be illegitimate use of force by the police. That changes the crowd's psychology from not wanting confrontation to feeling justified in resisting; defending their right to protest against what they see as illegitimate use of force to deny them their rights.

The basic tactic which worked to prevent this happening was how they policed the crowd before any trouble began - with officers in normal uniform dispersed throughout the crowd and building positive relation with those around them, which puts them in a much better position to identify the few intent on creating trouble and to deal with them without creating common cause between those few and the crowd as a whole. A difficult tactic to achieve when you already painted yourself into a corner as the protest is against the actions of the police, but we all saw examples of police de-escalating with displays of taking the knee in solidarity against racist violence. We might argue about how sincere that was but it's a better tactic than breaking heads. No doubt there were plenty whose instinct was to opt for the breaking heads thing over such a soft approach but the alternative is you have to keep raising the stakes until things become so savage that eventually the guys with weapons prevail. But in terms of policing a city long-term, is that really winning?
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Old 24th July 2020, 02:33 AM   #317
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Originally Posted by HoverBoarder View Post
The exact same ones? Wow, you have good eyes.
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Old 24th July 2020, 04:04 AM   #318
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Originally Posted by Jack by the hedge View Post
Indeed. Seeing a protest crowd as one amorphous thing is a basic mistake that police had to unlearn to deal with football hooliganism in Europe and de-escalate riots too. There's an excellent recent episode of The Life Scientific which interviews an academic who studies the psychology of such crowds.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sounds/play/m000k2l3 (don't know whether link will work outside UK, sorry)

The kernel is that most of the crowd see themselves as peaceful protesters exercising their rights. If the police see the event as becoming unruly they act against the crowd to disperse it, but since the protesters don't see themselves in that way they do see what appears to be illegitimate use of force by the police. That changes the crowd's psychology from not wanting confrontation to feeling justified in resisting; defending their right to protest against what they see as illegitimate use of force to deny them their rights.

The basic tactic which worked to prevent this happening was how they policed the crowd before any trouble began - with officers in normal uniform dispersed throughout the crowd and building positive relation with those around them, which puts them in a much better position to identify the few intent on creating trouble and to deal with them without creating common cause between those few and the crowd as a whole. A difficult tactic to achieve when you already painted yourself into a corner as the protest is against the actions of the police, but we all saw examples of police de-escalating with displays of taking the knee in solidarity against racist violence. We might argue about how sincere that was but it's a better tactic than breaking heads. No doubt there were plenty whose instinct was to opt for the breaking heads thing over such a soft approach but the alternative is you have to keep raising the stakes until things become so savage that eventually the guys with weapons prevail. But in terms of policing a city long-term, is that really winning?
Hell, at most of these protests they don't even need to do that much - these crowds are - the protestors will shove the people looking to cause trouble and hand them straight over out on their own, just as they have in every protest where the police don't just charge in and start clubbing everyone and firing flaming canisters and rubber bullets at them indiscriminately. Once you do that, people don't leave, they gear up and come back with reinforcements. Some idiot GOPer posted a picture of a shield and a pair of gas masks, writing "does this look peaceful?", And everyone said "Those aren't rifles like those anti-mask clowns had, you doofus, shut up."

(I'll note that I correctly predicted that some fool would eventually shoot Ferguson cops, when they continued doing this same thing for roughly a year.)

Why do that, and then fall back when some opportunists actually riot? Because they think it's good optics. But when you beat up nonviolent protestors over and over, and then vanish while the protestors are the ones quelling any riots, the cops just look like idiots.

But police in many black (and indigenous) communities have made it clear that they're entirely beyond hope - they clearly see violence and torture as an exciting reward, and actually solving crimes as beneath them. And that's why people are saying to just fire them all and handle it another way.
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Old 24th July 2020, 04:32 AM   #319
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Originally Posted by Mumbles View Post
Even if *they* aren't (and they certainly act like a guerrilla squad), what's to stop some pack of random idiots from dressing up and pulling the same stunt?
Nothing. Never has been anything to stop some pack of random idiots from dressing up and pulling the same stunt in the US or Canada or any other country. What's your point?
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Old 24th July 2020, 04:36 AM   #320
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Originally Posted by Mumbles View Post
Hell, at most of these protests they don't even need to do that much - these crowds are - the protestors will shove the people looking to cause trouble and hand them straight over out on their own, just as they have in every protest where the police don't just charge in and start clubbing everyone and firing flaming canisters and rubber bullets at them indiscriminately. Once you do that, people don't leave, they gear up and come back with reinforcements. Some idiot GOPer posted a picture of a shield and a pair of gas masks, writing "does this look peaceful?", And everyone said "Those aren't rifles like those anti-mask clowns had, you doofus, shut up."

(I'll note that I correctly predicted that some fool would eventually shoot Ferguson cops, when they continued doing this same thing for roughly a year.)

Why do that, and then fall back when some opportunists actually riot? Because they think it's good optics. But when you beat up nonviolent protestors over and over, and then vanish while the protestors are the ones quelling any riots, the cops just look like idiots.

But police in many black (and indigenous) communities have made it clear that they're entirely beyond hope - they clearly see violence and torture as an exciting reward, and actually solving crimes as beneath them. And that's why people are saying to just fire them all and handle it another way.
Hilarious! Do you write a lot of comedy bits professionally or is this just a hobby?
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