Continuation Covid-19 and Politics pt 2

[Captain_Swoop]

"As we move into the recovery phase of the coronavirus pandemic, we expect to see clusters in settings such as workplaces"

recovery phase?

[Rolfe]

Is that Jason? Not the sharpest knife in the drawer is our Jason.

In better news, I suddenly realised there is a clone of that hotel in Queensferry. West Lothian has had very low numbers of new cases for several weeks. Game on again.

[Captain_Swoop]

It was on BBC news but I can't find it again now.

[Captain_Swoop]

Govt announce new public sector pay rises for
Teachers, dentists, doctors, police, prison officers, National Crime Agency staff, the armed forces, members of the judiciary and senior civil servants.

Chancellor said

Quote:

These past months have underlined what we always knew, that our public sector workers make a vital contribution to our country and that we can rely on them when we need them.
It's right, therefore, that we follow the recommendations of the independent pay bodies with this set of real-terms pay rises.

Nurses get nothing because of an existing 3 year pay deal.

They got a clap though.

Money for the pay increases of up to would come from existing departmental budgets.

[The Don]

Originally Posted by Captain_Swoop

Govt announce new public sector pay rises for
Teachers, dentists, doctors, police, prison officers, National Crime Agency staff, the armed forces, members of the judiciary and senior civil servants.

Chancellor said


Nurses get nothing because of an existing 3 year pay deal.

They got a clap though.

Money for the pay increases of up to would come from existing departmental budgets.

How very generous, giving (some of) the workers a pay rise without giving the departments any more money to pay for it.

The thing that maddens me most is that in the process they're declaring the end of "Austerity" but this will necessarily lead to a squeeze on front-line services as the pay budget goes up.

[Tolls]

Yes, there doesn't seem to be any pointers as to how, for example, schools (which have already had to juggle budgets over the cost of reopening with covid mitigation in place) are supposed to find even more money to pay the new staff wages.

I expect to see even more cutbacks, and then the government will blame the schools when things get even crappier there.

[Squeegee Beckenheim]

It's also worth noting that, in what I'm sure is a complete coincidence, this is announced at exactly the same time as the Russia report is released.

Originally Posted by Tolls

Yes, there doesn't seem to be any pointers as to how, for example, schools (which have already had to juggle budgets over the cost of reopening with covid mitigation in place) are supposed to find even more money to pay the new staff wages.

I expect to see even more cutbacks, and then the government will blame the schools when things get even crappier there.

The last time I worked in a school, the art teacher had to pay for the art supplies the pupils used out of her own pocket. I wonder if we'll see more of that kind of thing - so, essentially, they don't get a pay rise and instead the money is just moved around a little more.

[P.J. Denyer]

Originally Posted by Squeegee Beckenheim

The last time I worked in a school, the art teacher had to pay for the art supplies the pupils used out of her own pocket. I wonder if we'll see more of that kind of thing - so, essentially, they don't get a pay rise, pay a bit more back in tax and instead the money is just moved around a little more.

FTFY

[The Don]

Boris Johnson is claiming that the UK's response to Coronavirus shows the strength of the union:

Quote:

The response to the coronavirus pandemic has shown the "sheer might" of the UK union, Boris Johnson has said ahead of Thursday's visit to Scotland.

The trip, a year on since he became PM, will see Mr Johnson meet members of the armed forces and their families.

He said troops had done "vital work" to support the NHS during the pandemic and praised Treasury job retention schemes.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotla...itics-53485651

I disagree, and note the following:

• The UK government's response to Coronavirus has been shamefully bad. Tens of thousands of people have died needlessly early because of a lack of decisive leadership
• The UK was woefully under-prepared, locked down far too early late and not strictly enough and lifted lockdown restrictions too early
• The devolved parts of the UK have fared rather better (or possibly less worse) because they've taken their own approach to managing Coronavirus and lifting lockdown restrictions
• If anything, being part of the UK has been a disadvantage for Scotland, Northern Ireland and Wales when it comes to Coronavirus

[The Don]

The UK's "world beating" test and trace system is working as well as expected

Quote:

Data obtained by the Guardian shows that in areas with the highest infection rates in England, the proportion of close contacts of infected people being reached is far below 80%, the level the government’s scientific advisers say is required for test and trace to be effective.

In Luton, which has the sixth highest infection rate in England, only 47% of at-risk people were contacted by test and trace. In Leicester, which remains under a partial lockdown, the rate was 65%, meaning more than 3,300 people were not reached by the programme.

https://www.theguardian.com/world/20...tact-thousands

The whole thing is scandalous. Even if you ignore the millions wasted on the useless, illegal, phone tracing app, the human tracers aren't proving that effective and the whole system is incredibly wasteful. The estimate is that each of the 25,000 tracers traces one person every two weeks or so - doesn't sound like value for money to me.

[Pixel42]

Originally Posted by The Don

I disagree, and note the following:

• The UK government's response to Coronavirus has been shamefully bad. Tens of thousands of people have died needlessly early because of a lack of decisive leadership
• The UK was woefully under-prepared, locked down far too early and not strictly enough and lifted lockdown restrictions too early
• The devolved parts of the UK have fared rather better (or possibly less worse) because they've taken their own approach to managing Coronavirus and lifting lockdown restrictions
• If anything, being part of the UK has been a disadvantage for Scotland, Northern Ireland and Wales when it comes to Coronavirus

You might want to correct the highlighted before the edit window closes.

[The Don]

Originally Posted by Pixel42

You might want to correct the highlighted before the edit window closes.

Thanks

[zooterkin]

Originally Posted by The Don

The UK's "world beating" test and trace system is working as well as expected



https://www.theguardian.com/world/20...tact-thousands

The whole thing is scandalous. Even if you ignore the millions wasted on the useless, illegal, phone tracing app, the human tracers aren't proving that effective and the whole system is incredibly wasteful. The estimate is that each of the 25,000 tracers traces one person every two weeks or so - doesn't sound like value for money to me.

Especially when there is already the infrastructure in place to do the job at a local level, which would be more effective. Environmental Health Officers are not being used or given the information needed to do their jobs, so Boris can waste money by giving it to centralised projects run by people with no clue who just happen to be friends of the government.

[Darat]

Originally Posted by zooterkin

Especially when there is already the infrastructure in place to do the job at a local level, which would be more effective. Environmental Health Officers are not being used or given the information needed to do their jobs, so Boris can waste money by giving it to centralised projects run by people with no clue who just happen to be friends of the government.

It is ideology mixed with mates culture.

[The Don]

Originally Posted by zooterkin

Especially when there is already the infrastructure in place to do the job at a local level, which would be more effective. Environmental Health Officers are not being used or given the information needed to do their jobs, so Boris can waste money by giving it to centralised projects run by people with no clue who just happen to be friends of the government.

As has been pointed out several times, mostly by Darat, using existing infrastructure isn't acceptable because it shows that public services work just fine - even in extreme circumstances. Instead Dominic Cummings is living out the Niven fap-fantasy of an innovator saving the world against agents of the status quo.

[The Don]

It seems that the government hasn't done the spectacular job that they're claiming:

Quote:

The government's failure to plan for the economic impact of a pandemic is "astonishing", a committee of MPs says.

The Commons Public Accounts Committee said the economic reaction to Covid-19 was rushed and the impact could be "long-term".

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-53484998

To be honest, I thought that the economic response was one of the things that the government had done best (or least worst).

[Squeegee Beckenheim]

Originally Posted by The Don

To be honest, I thought that the economic response was one of the things that the government had done best (or least worst).

It seems that the issue they're highlighting isn't that the actual policies were wrong, but that they hadn't been prepared in advance, so took too long to implement as they first had to be conceived.

I can certainly believe that, like everything else the government has done WRT this pandemic, earlier implementation and better planning could have mitigated the harm caused considerably.

[Tolls]

Well, the economic response was full of issues that showed they were making it up as they went along.
The whole thing around self-employed and the like should have been picked up a lot sooner had they actually planned things out earlier on.

The PACs complaint is along those lines. Essentially the treasury opened the taps without really having an idea about what would and would not be effective. They still don't, to be honest.

[Darat]

Originally Posted by The Don

It seems that the government hasn't done the spectacular job that they're claiming:



https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-53484998

To be honest, I thought that the economic response was one of the things that the government had done best (or least worst).

I think it was as usual, the announcement is made and then they lose interest and have no idea how their announcements will be followed and everyone else is trying to play catch-up to deliver what has been announced.

Always remember it is the headlines that are important not actually doing something about the problem. Which is why they get so annoyed when someone asks them about how they are delivering on last week's headlines announcements, I really think some of them can't comprehend there is a difference between saying something and doing something.

[jimbob]

Originally Posted by The Don

Boris Johnson is claiming that the UK's response to Coronavirus shows the strength of the union:



https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotla...itics-53485651

I disagree, and note the following:

• The UK government's response to Coronavirus has been shamefully bad. Tens of thousands of people have died needlessly early because of a lack of decisive leadership
• The UK was woefully under-prepared, locked down far too early late and not strictly enough and lifted lockdown restrictions too early
• The devolved parts of the UK have fared rather better (or possibly less worse) because they've taken their own approach to managing Coronavirus and lifting lockdown restrictions
• If anything, being part of the UK has been a disadvantage for Scotland, Northern Ireland and Wales when it comes to Coronavirus

Yup, Quoting myself here.

https://twitter.com/ParkinJim/status...029650944?s=20

Quote:

im Parkin🕯 #BLM #FBPE
·
May 4
Really?Johnson missed 5 COBR meetings & boasted of breaking social distancing. Allowed Cheltenham. Rebuffed EU supply initiatives then said they missed the email. Gove only looked @ Exercise Cygnus late April. STILL not testing or quarantining airport arrivals.& that's 1 tweet.

[Rolfe]

Originally Posted by The Don

The UK's no, ENGLAND's "world beating" test and trace system is working as well as expected

https://www.theguardian.com/world/20...tact-thousands

The whole thing is scandalous. Even if you ignore the millions wasted on the useless, illegal, phone tracing app, the human tracers aren't proving that effective and the whole system is incredibly wasteful. The estimate is that each of the 25,000 tracers traces one person every two weeks or so - doesn't sound like value for money to me.

Here we go again. The Don, you live in Wales, you know better than that. The centralised system that's causing all the trouble only applies to England. The devolved nations are doing their own thing and doing a lot better as a result. Even the Guardian's headline writer got it right.

Wales is interesting. In Ceredigion a council leader with a background in bacteriology understood the importance of the local authority contact tracing teams and insisted it was done properly and expanded to cope right from the beginning. They never stopped TTI at all right into lockdown and you might want to take a look at the cases and deaths in Ceredigion compared to the rest of this sorry island. Any council could have done that if they'd understood the issues, but they were simply told to stop on 12th March and did what they were told.

More recently Wales's figures haven't been looking brilliant but this seems to be because they've had about three pretty bad clusters which they've now got on top of, not because there's infection running rampant across the country. If there are no new clusters I expect the Welsh figures to be looking better in the coming weeks.

In Scotland we're suffering from irony overload because our current cluster (now 24 cases) originated in a Sitel call centre, on a floor where their workers are contracted to do remote telephone contact-tracing for NHS England. It sounds as if they've created more cases than they've prevented. Call centres are not even supposed to be working in Scotland at the moment (employees are supposed to be working from home), but this one was, and not following the guidelines, and apparently staff were socialising at breaks as if they'd never even heard of coronavirus.

Extra irony points because both our clusters have been linked to NHS England. The Annan one because people working in Cumberland Infirmary brought the virus home with them across the border, and the Sitel one because the people infected were working for NHS England at the time. And probably working illegally because call centres aren't supposed to be open.

Here we've had well under 100 cases a week for the past month and we've only had one death in the past 15 days. We've only had six deaths so far in July and most of these were in the first week. Apart from the two clusters (Annan and the Sitel call-centre) we're just seeing new cases pop up in ones and twos across the country (mainly in the more urban central belt now) and then they go away again. A region might have a case, then several days without anything, then another one, and that's the way it's going. My own region has only had a single case since 21st June. The risk in Scotland is now considered to be so low that formal shielding is being discontinued from 1st August, with people at high risk simply urged to follow existing guidelines extremely carefully.

What's going on? There is still virus out there, as the Sitel employees were forcibly reminded. I think what's happening is that some people are asymptomatic or have very mild symptoms, and either that virus isn't passed on due to social distancing which is fine, or eventually someone gets sick enough to call in for a test and the contact tracers pounce.

I'm not seeing any evidence of uncontrolled community transmission anywhere. Just these odd cases and then they go away again. We have had an increase in daily numbers recently even if you exclude the cluster, but it's being put down to more testing finding the cases that are there rather than an increase in community transmission.

The longer this goes on the more stark the contrast is going to become, unless Scotland relapses in a way we're not seeing at the moment. Are people in England really going to put up with a continuing death rate of a hundred or so per day and uncontrolled community transmission of virus in a number of densely-populated towns and cities, when we've almost stopped seeing deaths at all in Scotland and what virus there is out there is being jumped on and contact-traced into oblivion?

[The Don]

Originally Posted by Rolfe

Are people in England really going to put up with a continuing death rate of a hundred or so per day and uncontrolled community transmission of virus in a number of densely-populated towns and cities, when we've almost stopped seeing deaths at all in Scotland and what virus there is out there is being jumped on and contact-traced into oblivion?

Yes they are .

Firstly because the success of the devolved nations simply won't be presented to the English public and if it's mentioned in parliament there'll be a Gish Gallop by the government to explain why we cannot compare different parts of the UK because of *reasons*.

Secondly because the English won't be presented with an alternative, not even those from the devolved governments. Instead lockdown lifting will proceed, despite rising infection numbers and the Westminster government will continue to pressure the devolved governments to move in lockstep with Westminster.

[Rolfe]

Hmm. Nicola Sturgeon has changed her tune markedly since March and is now talking about a firm line being needed to allow the virus to be handled in the way that most appropriate for local conditions. In today's news she came over as reasonable and measured and refused to be drawn into political arguments, which was a pretty stark contrast with the way Boris was cutting about shouting about "the might of the Union".

People in Scotland know how well we're doing. We get the numbers every day and they're small numbers. Often round numbers, as far as deaths are concerned. If we're forced by Westminster to give up these hard-won gains, it will be pretty obvious who is to blame.

[Garrison]

Tomorrow will be fun as we watch people turning up to shop without masks and absolutely nothing is done to stop them. A relative works for Tesco and they've been advised not to approach customers not wearing masks to for safety's sake. After all there's no way of knowing if such a customer is just an idiot or some 'you can't take away my rights!' loon whose going to start a fight. Since the government has said it doesn't want police hanging around outside shops enforcing the rule it seems another fiasco is in order.

[Rolfe]

In Scotland people are just doing it. Tweet after tweet from people saying they've been shopping and everyone is wearing a mask. I haven't heard about any nasty confrontations although of course there will have been some I suppose.

[zooterkin]

Originally Posted by Garrison

. After all there's no way of knowing if such a customer is just an idiot or some 'you can't take away my rights!' loon whose going to start a fight.

Or someone with a legitimate reason not to wear a mask.

[ponderingturtle]

Originally Posted by zooterkin

Or someone with a legitimate reason not to wear a mask.

Like trying to get to proper herd immunity and how spreading the virus is what the country needs.

[Mr Fied]

Originally Posted by Garrison

Tomorrow will be fun as we watch people turning up to shop without masks and absolutely nothing is done to stop them. A relative works for Tesco and they've been advised not to approach customers not wearing masks to for safety's sake. After all there's no way of knowing if such a customer is just an idiot or some 'you can't take away my rights!' loon whose going to start a fight. Since the government has said it doesn't want police hanging around outside shops enforcing the rule it seems another fiasco is in order.

As it is on Tfl buses. Drivers have been told not to refuse travel to anyone not wearing a mask, but to play a recorded message advising the need to wear a face covering.

I think it's been 5 or 6 weeks since the wearing of face coverings became compulsory, I have not had one inspector/police officer check a bus I have been driving, and nor have many of my colleagues.

It may be happening in central London, but not out in the suburbs.

I will say the vast majority of people are complying, but as normal it's the usual suspects that can't be bothered.

[Mr Fied]

Originally Posted by zooterkin

Or someone with a legitimate reason not to wear a mask.

You will probably find, as happens on buses, that those with a legitimate reason
will approach and explain the reason they cannot wear a mask before being asked.

[GlennB]

Originally Posted by zooterkin

Or someone with a legitimate reason not to wear a mask.

What are the possible reasons and what %age of people might be affected?

[zooterkin]

Originally Posted by ponderingturtle

Like trying to get to proper herd immunity and how spreading the virus is what the country needs.

No, I said, and meant, legitimate reason, as listed here - https://www.gov.uk/government/public...-make-your-own

See section 3.

I know someone who finds it distressing to have her face covered because it causes flashbacks to being raped. People with autism also may have problems.

Don’t assume that someone not wearing a mask is an idiot.

[ponderingturtle]

Originally Posted by zooterkin

No, I said, and meant, legitimate reason, as listed here - https://www.gov.uk/government/public...-make-your-own

See section 3.

I know someone who finds it distressing to have her face covered because it causes flashbacks to being raped. People with autism also may have problems.

Don’t assume that someone not wearing a mask is an idiot.

Hey I came up with a perfectly good reason to not wear a mask that fits with the governments official announcements.

[Captain_Swoop]

If Boris thinks he can win over the Scottish with this half-baked "Union as marriage-vows" analogy when he literally left his second wife while she had cancer so he could have sex with a younger woman, the mind boggles.

“In Sickness & Health”. The very words Boris Johnson used when he married his 2nd wife.
Before leaving her while she was suffering fron cancer to shack up with a girl 3 decades younger.

[Rolfe]

I keep seeing things on Twitter about how he was seen off from various places today. I don't know what happened in Orkney but the Orcadians seemed particularly pleased with themselves.

Also, announcing that you will never meet the First Minister of Scotland in her official residence isn't a good look. Politicians and statesmen are supposed to meet and talk with others they don't like and disagree with, it's part of the job. The contempt for Scotland's elected representatives, both in Westminster and Holyrood, is turning more and more people to vote SNP I think.

The contrast in the live news feed that was reporting both the Boris visit and the FM's briefing on the handling of the Sitel coronavirus cluster, the relaxing of restrictions and our second 7-day stretch with no deaths at all, was quite striking.

[banquetbear]

Originally Posted by Tolls

Well, the economic response was full of issues that showed they were making it up as they went along.

...I would argue though that in the face of a global pandemic "making it up as they went along" is exactly what needed to happen. And its what we did down here in New Zealand. We weren't well prepared for a pandemic.

This link is subscription only, but its worth it (for a month) to read the inside story of how NZ successfully eliminated Covid-19. It wasn't something we planned for. It was a "cobbled together lockdown that nearly came undone." At the start of lockdown we only had enough testing kits to last two weeks, at one stage we only had enough test kits to last six days. Decisions were made at the highest level to ramp up testing, not to ration it, which left them no other choice but to get more test somehow.

Each decision was made on the basis of "how will this save lives?" Everything else flowed from there. The entire response was "made up as we went along." The Level System was conceived by the Prime Minister in a musing, then given to underlings who then invented a system from scratch.

https://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/a...ectid=12332156

I think this quote says it all:

Originally Posted by NZ Herald

Treasury officials, amongst the most-cautious branch of the public service, had abandoned business as usual the previous week and were now telling ministers the rapidly developing situation meant they were effectively flying blind.

Decisions on the need to mitigate rapidly worsening economic impacts for which there was no precedent may need to be made with incomplete information. "By the time it is clear that action is desirable, it may be too late to implement a timely response," officials said.

...

"The Department of Prime Minister and Cabinet were reaching deep into the public service at 10am saying 'Cabinet is going to be considering this move in a meeting tomorrow and we'll need a briefing paper in four hours,'" the source said. "The process for Cabinet papers usually, from drafting to submitting, takes three months."

...

A senior government figure said the pace was bewildering: "New information was arriving faster than we were able to make decisions, which were quickly being made obsolete." It was as if test-match cricketers suddenly found themselves playing a T20 super over.

...

The day before lockdown, the ad hoc committee of ministers was still cobbling together a quarantine policy, having scraped together 3300 suddenly-empty hotel rooms and 1400 campervans for use by arrivals unable to self-isolate or who showed symptoms of sickness. Briefing documents from this day include many spelling and grammar mistakes and show the sense of urgency, verging on panic, that had taken hold.

The work done behind the scenes here by our "civil service" was, in my humblest of opinion, heroic. They weren't hobbled by the the political class with an agenda: they were empowered to do what needed to be done to secure the country, save lives, and keep the economy going.

[banquetbear]

...just to follow up the last post, it really is hard to describe the feeling that I had going into lockdown in New Zealand. Its easy to look back now and think that where we are now was inevitable. But it wasn't. We had active cases and clusters, and cases were rising. Going into lockdown was scary. But at no stage did I ever think the government didn't have everything under control. The communication was clear and precise at every stage.

The Prime Minister had an absolute understanding of everything, fielded questions daily from reporters, went on Facebook live to take questions from constituents, and never once felt like she didn't know what she was talking about. You listen to most British politicians and they are just mostly repeating talking points. They don't actually understand the science behind what they are talking about, leading them to often make contradictory statements. And the difference is clear.

https://www.theguardian.com/world/20...g-advice-study

All I had to do was stay home and sit on my ass for a couple of months. I'm self-employed and qualified for the wage subsidy, I applied for that and the money was in my account two days after applying and a full day before I got email notification that the subsidy had been approved. I only had to answer five questions, one of those questions was "what is your bank account number, another question was a statutory declaration (is everything that you said true, which it was) and that was practically it. The confidence that sort of thing gives you can't be understated. It made all the difference in the world.

[quadraginta]

Originally Posted by zooterkin

No, I said, and meant, legitimate reason, as listed here - https://www.gov.uk/government/public...-make-your-own

See section 3.

I know someone who finds it distressing to have her face covered because it causes flashbacks to being raped. People with autism also may have problems.

Don’t assume that someone not wearing a mask is an idiot.

Maybe those people shouldn't be going out where face masks are needed. This isn't a fashion choice. We're talking about increasing the chances of other people dying. Yeah, it might be inconvenient for a (very) limited subset of people, but I suspect far more people will jump on excuses not to wear them rather than subject themselves to what they view as unreasonably onerous when it is merely uncomfortable.

Also, if they for some "legitimate" reason, can't wear masks, what about transparent face shields? I haven't seen much in the way of research, but surely they are better than nothing at all if the issue is the transmission of droplets. After all, most people's masks aren't going to be much of a barrier to aerosols, anyhow. As far as self-protection (although that isn't the main reason for the general need for masks) they offer some advantages masks do not. They protect the eyes from droplet transmission and discourage people from touching their own face, both likely vectors of infection.

[jimbob]

Originally Posted by zooterkin

No, I said, and meant, legitimate reason, as listed here - https://www.gov.uk/government/public...-make-your-own

See section 3.

I know someone who finds it distressing to have her face covered because it causes flashbacks to being raped. People with autism also may have problems.

Don’t assume that someone not wearing a mask is an idiot.

Exactly, there are valid psychological reasons, I know someone with PTSD after abuse involving covering their face.

[P.J. Denyer]

Originally Posted by Rolfe

I keep seeing things on Twitter about how he was seen off from various places today. I don't know what happened in Orkney but the Orcadians seemed particularly pleased with themselves.

Also, announcing that you will never meet the First Minister of Scotland in her official residence isn't a good look. Politicians and statesmen are supposed to meet and talk with others they don't like and disagree with, it's part of the job. The contempt for Scotland's elected representatives, both in Westminster and Holyrood, is turning more and more people to vote SNP I think.

The contrast in the live news feed that was reporting both the Boris visit and the FM's briefing on the handling of the Sitel coronavirus cluster, the relaxing of restrictions and our second 7-day stretch with no deaths at all, was quite striking.

There's your (our) problem, Johnson's a second rate politician & no statesman.

[The Don]

Originally Posted by jimbob

Exactly, there are valid psychological reasons, I know someone with PTSD after abuse involving covering their face.

A lot of other European countries have imposed mask-wearing but we in the UK haven't heard about people either not complying or suffering as a result of cases like the one you mention.

Is this because other countries have been less compassionate about people like this and forced them either to wear a mask or stay at home ? Have these people received an exemption but the numbers are relatively small and so not newsworthy that there are people walking around unmasked ? Has the management of exemptions been done more effectively in those countries so there aren't n% of ****-holes who decide that they're going unmasked and making things bad for those who are genuinely unable to wear a mask ?

The UK has a very low level of mask wearing and I worry that there will be a large number of people who will simply refuse to wear a mask and claim that they are unable to do so. We know that wearing a mask helps to protect other people from you so they are simply putting other people at risk for their own selfish reasons.