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Old 24th July 2020, 02:38 AM   #121
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Suggesting that Trump was not completely off beam, the apparent hot-spot in Barrow-in-Furness was due to higher testing rates.

Quote:
Councillor Ann Thomson, the leader of Barrow borough council, said: “The nationwide data released initially showed a far greater number of Covid-19 cases in Barrow than other parts of the country.

“Unfortunately, this data provided no additional information or context which was a huge concern to us all. We asked for an in-depth investigation to look into the factors behind the figures so we could be sure the right measures were in place to protect the most vulnerable in our communities as lockdown eased.

“This investigation has now been completed and shows Barrow’s higher incidence of coronavirus was actually down to the rigorous testing regime implemented early on by our hospital trust. The trust led the way nationally in terms of testing and we thank them absolutely for their proactive approach to controlling the spread of the pandemic in our area.”
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Old 24th July 2020, 03:02 AM   #122
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Originally Posted by The Don View Post
A lot of other European countries have imposed mask-wearing but we in the UK haven't heard about people either not complying or suffering as a result of cases like the one you mention.

Is this because other countries have been less compassionate about people like this and forced them either to wear a mask or stay at home ? Have these people received an exemption but the numbers are relatively small and so not newsworthy that there are people walking around unmasked ? Has the management of exemptions been done more effectively in those countries so there aren't n% of ****-holes who decide that they're going unmasked and making things bad for those who are genuinely unable to wear a mask ?

The UK has a very low level of mask wearing and I worry that there will be a large number of people who will simply refuse to wear a mask and claim that they are unable to do so. We know that wearing a mask helps to protect other people from you so they are simply putting other people at risk for their own selfish reasons.

I think the UK, and especially England has been taken over by a spirit of bloody minded knee jerk contrarianism. It's been building for years and if we don't change this path it's going to wreck us.
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Old 24th July 2020, 03:40 AM   #123
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Originally Posted by banquetbear View Post
...just to follow up the last post, it really is hard to describe the feeling that I had going into lockdown in New Zealand. Its easy to look back now and think that where we are now was inevitable. But it wasn't. We had active cases and clusters, and cases were rising. Going into lockdown was scary. But at no stage did I ever think the government didn't have everything under control. The communication was clear and precise at every stage.

The Prime Minister had an absolute understanding of everything, fielded questions daily from reporters, went on Facebook live to take questions from constituents, and never once felt like she didn't know what she was talking about. You listen to most British politicians and they are just mostly repeating talking points. They don't actually understand the science behind what they are talking about, leading them to often make contradictory statements. And the difference is clear.

https://www.theguardian.com/world/20...g-advice-study

All I had to do was stay home and sit on my ass for a couple of months. I'm self-employed and qualified for the wage subsidy, I applied for that and the money was in my account two days after applying and a full day before I got email notification that the subsidy had been approved. I only had to answer five questions, one of those questions was "what is your bank account number, another question was a statutory declaration (is everything that you said true, which it was) and that was practically it. The confidence that sort of thing gives you can't be understated. It made all the difference in the world.
A key point. In a modern economy, which is (with a few very important exceptions) demand-limited not supply-limited, you save the economy by ensuring people feel confident.

And that they know that they can afford to follow the government's instructions. If you had to wait for three months paid in arrears, there would have been far more temptation to try to work around the regulations in order to keep your head above water.

THAT is what a lot of the UK government has missed. I do think it is *probably* incompetence in that case, rather than malice.
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Old 24th July 2020, 03:59 AM   #124
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I think the number of people who have genuine reasons for not wearing a mask is extremely small and wouldn't really make much difference. Mainly these will be psychological problems like the ones noted - you can't wear a mask if covering your nose and mouth initiates a panic attack - and physical disabilities that make putting a mask on and off difficult or impossible. Some forms of cerebral palsy, that sort of thing.

Anyone whose respiratory function is so compromised that they can't wear a simple surgical mask should be at home on an oxygen mask, not in the supermarket screaming abuse at the checkout girl.
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Old 24th July 2020, 04:03 AM   #125
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Originally Posted by P.J. Denyer View Post
I think the UK, and especially England has been taken over by a spirit of bloody minded knee jerk contrarianism. It's been building for years and if we don't change this path it's going to wreck us.
I think most people were happy to comply until the Barnards Castle incident, and lack of any action taken against Cummings.
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Old 24th July 2020, 04:07 AM   #126
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Originally Posted by Rolfe View Post
I think the number of people who have genuine reasons for not wearing a mask is extremely small and wouldn't really make much difference.
I agree, but those people will be likely to be very adversely affected if other people go steaming into them assuming that everyone not wearing a mask is an idiot.
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Old 24th July 2020, 04:32 AM   #127
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Originally Posted by zooterkin View Post
I think most people were happy to comply until the Barnards Castle incident, and lack of any action taken against Cummings.
I don't know, IMO the Brexit result shows a certain degree of self-harming contrarianism.

edited to add...

That's not to say that Cummings didn't provide the cherry on top.

Last edited by The Don; 24th July 2020 at 04:33 AM.
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Old 24th July 2020, 05:35 AM   #128
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Originally Posted by Rolfe View Post
I think the number of people who have genuine reasons for not wearing a mask is extremely small and wouldn't really make much difference. Mainly these will be psychological problems like the ones noted - you can't wear a mask if covering your nose and mouth initiates a panic attack - and physical disabilities that make putting a mask on and off difficult or impossible. Some forms of cerebral palsy, that sort of thing.

Anyone whose respiratory function is so compromised that they can't wear a simple surgical mask should be at home on an oxygen mask, not in the supermarket screaming abuse at the checkout girl.
For the U.S., the ADA considers curbside pickup or other forms of no-contact delivery to fulfill "reasonable accomodation."

If someone absolutely can't wear a mask, then the work-around involves not going in the store at all.
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Old 24th July 2020, 05:54 AM   #129
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Originally Posted by zooterkin View Post
I think most people were happy to comply until the Barnards Castle incident, and lack of any action taken against Cummings.
This.

It was the first time I'd clearly seen how such an singular act can change people's attitudes.
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Old 24th July 2020, 05:56 AM   #130
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Johnson says something true shock.
Quote:
Visiting a doctors’ surgery in London on Friday, the prime minister said to staff: “There’s all these anti-vaxxers now. They are nuts, they are nuts.”
https://www.theguardian.com/society/...inter-flu-jabs
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Old 24th July 2020, 05:58 AM   #131
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Originally Posted by Darat View Post
This.

It was the first time I'd clearly seen how such an singular act can change people's attitudes.
Prior to that, people in positions of authority or influence had made similar errors of judgement, but had faced consequences.
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Old 24th July 2020, 06:15 AM   #132
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Originally Posted by P.J. Denyer View Post
I think the UK, and especially England has been taken over by a spirit of bloody minded knee jerk contrarianism. It's been building for years and if we don't change this path it's going to wreck us.
I think it's a little late for that. It's just the consequences that are going to take a while to fully present themselves.
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Old 24th July 2020, 07:16 AM   #133
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Originally Posted by The Don View Post
I don't know, IMO the Brexit result shows a certain degree of self-harming contrarianism.

edited to add...

That's not to say that Cummings didn't provide the cherry on top.
This. It goes back further than Covid.
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Old 24th July 2020, 07:38 AM   #134
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Originally Posted by zooterkin View Post
Suggesting that Trump was not completely off beam, the apparent hot-spot in Barrow-in-Furness was due to higher testing rates.

Nobody competent has argued that increased testing won't reveal more cases. The stupidity is that that metric is meaningless. What counts is the proportion of positive results among any testing regimen.

Of course, you knew that.
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Old 24th July 2020, 07:41 AM   #135
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Originally Posted by zooterkin View Post
I think most people were happy to comply until the Barnards Castle incident, and lack of any action taken against Cummings.

"That ******* got away with it, so why can't I be an ******* too?"

Yeah. That's a very mature outlook.

"But mommy, they let Dominic do it. Why can't I?"
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Old 24th July 2020, 07:54 AM   #136
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Boris Johnson is being quoted as saying that antivaxxers are nuts.

I guess he had to get something right eventually.
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Old 24th July 2020, 08:23 AM   #137
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Originally Posted by Pixel42 View Post
Boris Johnson is being quoted as saying that antivaxxers are nuts.

I guess he had to get something right eventually.
Especially if he takes both positions on an issue before seeing which way the wind is blowing.
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Old 24th July 2020, 08:44 AM   #138
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No deaths today in Wales, Scotland and Northern Ireland. Not quite the same picture in England. If only the Westminster government had some kind of local template to follow in how to manage the Coronavirus outbreak.

Last edited by The Don; 24th July 2020 at 08:51 AM.
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Old 24th July 2020, 08:46 AM   #139
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Well visited local ASDA superstore to day and was astounded, everyone was wearing masks. Another in a long of things that 'people won't stand for'(smoking ban in pubs, paying for plastic bags, etc.) it turns out people absolutely will stand for.
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Old 24th July 2020, 08:52 AM   #140
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Originally Posted by Garrison View Post
Well visited local ASDA superstore to day and was astounded, everyone was wearing masks. Another in a long of things that 'people won't stand for'(smoking ban in pubs, paying for plastic bags, etc.) it turns out people absolutely will stand for.
That's great news
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Old 24th July 2020, 08:56 AM   #141
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It should be noted, though, that both ASDA and Sainsbury's have said that they will not enforce a mask requirement. Waitrose is getting good buzz on twitter for actually enforcing the rule.
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Old 24th July 2020, 09:12 AM   #142
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Originally Posted by Garrison View Post
Well visited local ASDA superstore to day and was astounded, everyone was wearing masks. Another in a long of things that 'people won't stand for'(smoking ban in pubs, paying for plastic bags, etc.) it turns out people absolutely will stand for.
Same here in sainsbury and aldi
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Old 24th July 2020, 10:02 AM   #143
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Meanwhile Johnson was interviewed by Kuensberg on the Beeb and spouted so many lies that Carrot Flower Queen had to be physically prevented from beating up our kitchen radio...



Compliance with mask wearing on our quick jaunt to a shop seemed variable: most were; some weren't; and some might as well not have bothered - y'know, that cover a bit of the face, but not the nose thing.
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Old 24th July 2020, 11:20 AM   #144
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Originally Posted by quadraginta View Post
"That ******* got away with it, so why can't I be an ******* too?"

Yeah. That's a very mature outlook.

"But mommy, they let Dominic do it. Why can't I?"
Yes, it's stupid and immature. But yes, a lot of people think that way. People instinctively (and rightly) hate a 'do as I say not as I do' attitude but unfortunately are responding in a destructive way in this case.
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Old 24th July 2020, 11:39 AM   #145
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Originally Posted by The Don View Post
No deaths today in Wales, Scotland and Northern Ireland. Not quite the same picture in England. If only the Westminster government had some kind of local template to follow in how to manage the Coronavirus outbreak.

Scotland has now gone eight days without any deaths at all, and that was following a seven-day run. So only a single death in the past 16 days. Only six deaths so far this month and most of these were in the first week.

Originally Posted by Carrot Flower King View Post
Compliance with mask wearing on our quick jaunt to a shop seemed variable: most were; some weren't; and some might as well not have bothered - y'know, that cover a bit of the face, but not the nose thing.

This afternoon I drove to visit relatives who live in a town about 35 miles away and as I drove through several villages on the way I noticed quite a lot of that too. Masks covering mouths but not noses. Of course the people I saw were outside in the street and I thought maybe they've just pulled them down while they're out of doors, but then again maybe not. We need an education campaign.
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Old 24th July 2020, 11:48 AM   #146
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Dominic Raab visited a Foodbank and tweeted

"Great to join Jenny French and her formidable team of local East Elmbridge Foodbank volunteers, alongside @SCCLeader Tim Oliver, in their new Molesey base. They’re doing an amazing job supporting the vulnerable during COVID."

Tory doing a photo opp in a foodbank is like an arsonist doing a photo opp with the fire brigade.

In the past Raab has shared his belief that the majority of food bank users aren’t there because of poverty, but due to cash-flow problems.
I assume he’s not here just for a selfie but to give financial advice?

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Old 24th July 2020, 12:24 PM   #147
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A picture of a grinning David Mundell opening a food bank in Peebles has been going the rounds for some time.

He also broke protocol to visit a Trussell Trust food bank in Dumfries (again grinning) in the part of the town which is not in his constituency. He didn't notify the (SNP) MP for the constituency that he was doing this. There is another food bank in the part of the town which is in his constituency, but that's run by an independence supporter (and doesn't follow the Trussell Trust's punitive model of restricting the number of food parcels to much less than subsistence level and hounding the people to get a job while they do it), so obviously he couldn't go there.
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Old 24th July 2020, 12:36 PM   #148
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Originally Posted by Captain_Swoop View Post
Dominic Raab visited a Foodbank and tweeted

"Great to join Jenny French and her formidable team of local East Elmbridge Foodbank volunteers, alongside @SCCLeader Tim Oliver, in their new Molesey base. They’re doing an amazing job supporting the vulnerable during COVID."

Tory doing a photo opp in a foodbank is like an arsonist doing a photo opp with the fire brigade.

In the past Raab has shared his belief that the majority of food bank users aren’t there because of poverty, but due to cash-flow problems.
I assume he’s not here just for a selfie but to give financial advice?
If he didn't call it 'uplifting' he's still ahead of Rees-Mogg. And yes, that is damning with faint praise.
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Old 24th July 2020, 06:22 PM   #149
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Originally Posted by zooterkin View Post
Suggesting that Trump was not completely off beam, the apparent hot-spot in Barrow-in-Furness was due to higher testing rates.
Oh yeah, Trump was dead right here. You see, if those people hadn't been tested they never would have gotten the virus!

The remote Cumbrian town with the UK's highest Covid-19 infection rate
Quote:
Quite how everyone else in Barrow got infected is not yet clear, according to Colin Cox, the director of public health for Cumbria. He said the high infection rate could in part be explained by the fact more people in Barrow have been tested than in other places.
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Old 24th July 2020, 11:36 PM   #150
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Originally Posted by Roger Ramjets View Post
Oh yeah, Trump was dead right here. You see, if those people hadn't been tested they never would have gotten the virus!

The remote Cumbrian town with the UK's highest Covid-19 infection rate
I’m not quite sure what point you’re making. Clearly, Trump is wrong to suggest the answer to testing finding more cases is to do less testing, and I was being obviously tongue-in-cheek.

You’ve quoted an article from May, when Barrow was thought to be a hot-spot because more cases were being found there than in other places; the recent article I quoted and linked to explains that high rate was due to more testing which more accurately found the actual rate of infection, implying that the rate was the same or higher in other places but not enough testing was being done (something we are not surprised to learn) to detect the infection levels.
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Old 25th July 2020, 02:11 AM   #151
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https://twitter.com/BBCNews/status/1286711554570948609

Quote:
"We didn't understand [the virus] in the way that we would have liked in the first few weeks and months"

PM Boris Johnson reflects on the government's handling of coronavirus and says "there are things we need to learn"

http://bbc.in/32SNWZw
Footage embedded in tweet.

https://twitter.com/BorisJohnson_MP/...511769600?s=20

Quote:
I naturally assumed that the best way to undestand the virus would be to skip five Cobra meetings and go on holiday.
https://twitter.com/davidschneider/s...774482944?s=20

Quote:
Clearly the government’s focus groups have told them to switch to “maybe we made some mistakes but we followed the science” in the hope the blame shifts to the scientists.

At 0.34 you can see that working in real time: “maybe your scientists were wrong”
Footage embedded in tweet.

I think some of the stuff about Laura Kuenssberg is over-egged, and I'm aware that she apparently has a reputation within the industry for prizing neutrality above everything else, but over the years I have come to think that she does have a Tory bias. I first heard of her when I started listening to Brexitcast and even before I'd heard any of the rumours about her there were times when I thought "oh, that seems to be spun in quite a pro-Brexit, pro-Tory direction". And the more I've seen and heard of her, the more like that I've noticed.

This is possibly the most blatant example I've seen. I'm just a normal punter who doesn't even follow politics all that closely, and I know that scientists have recently said that they advised quicker action and were ignored. Knenssberg is the political editor of BBC News. She should be more informed than I am, so it's hard to imagine that she doesn't know that. Similarly, she must know about the skipped meetings, the holiday, the fact that Cummings was a presence in SAGE meetings, etc.

But instead of holding him to account for any of that, she lobs him a softball question seemingly designed to help him avoid any blame.

Full interview, for context:

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Old 25th July 2020, 03:35 AM   #152
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People in supermarkets. It's not difficult. Shopping list of things you need, get them, pay and **** off. Shopping is not an opportunity to hang out in the aisles while your child has fun or spend 15 minutes just staring at the bacon.
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Old 25th July 2020, 04:02 AM   #153
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Originally Posted by Captain_Swoop View Post
People in supermarkets. It's not difficult. Shopping list of things you need, get them, pay and **** off. Shopping is not an opportunity to hang out in the aisles while your child has fun or spend 15 minutes just staring at the bacon.
Are you absolutely sure you're not me ?
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Old 25th July 2020, 04:51 AM   #154
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Laura Kuenssberg is a hissing and a byword for being a Tory cheerleader and this has been known and obvious for a long time. Which planet have you been on if you think she has a reputation for prizing neutrality?
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Old 25th July 2020, 05:54 AM   #155
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Originally Posted by Rolfe View Post
Laura Kuenssberg is a hissing and a byword for being a Tory cheerleader and this has been known and obvious for a long time. Which planet have you been on if you think she has a reputation for prizing neutrality?
A hissing?
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Old 25th July 2020, 07:28 AM   #156
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Originally Posted by Roger Ramjets View Post
Oh yeah, Trump was dead right here. You see, if those people hadn't been tested they never would have gotten the virus!

The remote Cumbrian town with the UK's highest Covid-19 infection rate

Not really Cumbrian anyway.
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Old 25th July 2020, 07:31 AM   #157
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Originally Posted by Rolfe View Post
Which planet have you been on if you think she has a reputation for prizing neutrality?
I said "within the industry". For example: "The Labour MP Tom Watson says 'she doesn’t editorialise', adding: 'I’ve never seen her grind her axe.'" Another example, this time a left-wing journalist.

I've seen more than one person - journalist and politician alike, quoted as saying things like that about her.

As I say, my own observations are that she leans somewhat to the right, but she's also been accused of having a left-wing bias (an example), and I've seen plenty of accusations against her that are unfounded or misogynist from both sides of the spectrum. Or even unfounded and misogynist, such as that she is or was shagging Johnson.
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Old 25th July 2020, 08:20 AM   #158
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Rolfe, this is a good explanation of the different sources of infection estimates in the UK - although concentrated in England)

https://covid.joinzoe.com/post/ons-covid-comparison
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Old 25th July 2020, 09:16 AM   #159
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Thanks, but I'm tired of that stupid app.
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Old 25th July 2020, 10:04 AM   #160
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With Spain going back onto the quarantine list, it will be interesting how employers deal with future holiday requests.

If someone books a holiday and takes a week off work, but on returning finds that they cannot come back to work for another two weeks due to quarantine, will the employer

- have to pay them?
- take another 2 weeks holiday off them?
- let people book holidays abroad?
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