Are atheists too complacent?

Scorpion

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Atheists seem to assume that people who believe in God and an afterlife are mentally weak and gullible. Thereby assuming intellectual superiority over them.
But have they considered what it means to really believe you are answerable to a higher power in everything you do?
Is it not easier and more comfortable to believe death brings oblivion, than to believe you are held accountable in an eternal afterlife?
 
Atheists seem to assume that people who believe in God and an afterlife are mentally weak and gullible. Thereby assuming intellectual superiority over them.
But have they considered what it means to really believe you are answerable to a higher power in everything you do?
Is it not easier and more comfortable to believe death brings oblivion, than to believe you are held accountable in an eternal afterlife?



That's a pretty broad brush you have used. You seem to assume that atheists are a homogenous group, who all think and feel the same. Actually, our only defining characteristic is the absence of religion.

For myself, I have known many theists who were intelligent, well educated and no more gullible than most people.

As to your question in the final line; that should be addressed to former theists. I was born without a religion, and haven't acquired one along the way. Only someone who has been both a believer, and a non-believer can judge the difference in how it feels.
 
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Atheists seem to assume that people who believe in God and an afterlife are mentally weak and gullible.

I would swap the word "assume" for "know", because it's true.

Almost half a century ago I made the statement that "religion is a crutch for the weak" and I've yet to see any reason to change that opinion.

Religion is wilful self-delusion.

Thereby assuming intellectual superiority over them.

Moral superiority, sure, but not necessarily intellectual superiority. I know one christian who is one of the world's leading theoretical neuroscientists, with a raft of highly-regarded research behind him. He is unquestionably the smartest bloke I know, but he's mentally weak for wanting to believe the ghost of a dead Jew and his dad run the universe.

But have they considered what it means to really believe you are answerable to a higher power in everything you do?

That's just plain baloney, because it's not how the enormous majority of christians act, because christianity has the get-out-of-jail-free card of pleading for forgiveness, with no limits as to what may be forgiven.

Murder a child? No worries. Accept Jesus and plead for forgiveness, and heaven shall be opened unto you.

I would contend the exact opposite to you - knowing a higher power will forgive any sin, no matter how repugnant, encourages amoral and immoral behaviour, while the certain knowledge that you final judge will be yourself and your family is a better life guide.

Is it not easier and more comfortable to believe death brings oblivion, than to believe you are held accountable in an eternal afterlife?

See above - you won't be held accountable - it's a lot easier to believe in eternal rapture than a black hole.

A few years back, some loony fundie church here ran TV ads that started with a blond Jesus lookalike at the beach asking if you knew what happened to you when you die, because he did. He was going to hold hands with the sky-daddy in heaven when he died, and you should, too.

This again proves their moral cowardice - they are so scared of their own self-delusion that they must encourage others to reinforce it for them.

Checkmate, christians!
 
Is it not easier and more comfortable to believe death brings oblivion, than to believe you are held accountable in an eternal afterlife?

It is easiest and most comfortable to believe something close to what you were taught as a child and is accepted in the community that you grew up in.

Believing what the preponderance of evidence shows may be easy or hard depending on your starting point.
 
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But have they considered what it means to really believe you are answerable to a higher power in everything you do?

... snip...

I know from what you have posted in the past that it means when you read of a 3 year old raped and murdered by soldiers you can just say "she's learning a lesson she needs to learn and we should be happy about that".
 
It is very, very hard to break free from the conditioning you have had from birth. Non-atheists are not stupid. They are mistaken.

It is a cold and lonely Universe. Tough. We make if it what we can as creatures shaped by 3.5 billion years of the random walk natural selection.
 
I know from what you have posted in the past that it means when you read of a 3 year old raped and murdered by soldiers you can just say "she's learning a lesson she needs to learn and we should be happy about that".

You are like a broken record stuck in the same groove.
 
Atheists seem to assume that people who believe in God and an afterlife are mentally weak and gullible. Thereby assuming intellectual superiority over them.
Some do, some don't. Atheists are not a homogeneous group; the only thing they have in common is a lack of belief in a deity.

But have they considered what it means to really believe you are answerable to a higher power in everything you do?
Is it not easier and more comfortable to believe death brings oblivion, than to believe you are held accountable in an eternal afterlife?
No, because most atheists believe people are accountable in this life. As a side note, not all atheists disbelieve in an afterlife, they just don't believe in a god-based afterlife. Some atheists believe there is some kind of afterlife - I don't, but I'm not foolish enough to think that my lack of belief in an afterlife is universal or even typical amongst atheists.

Being accountable in this life means that the oft-trumpeted scenario of committing a murder and then converting to religion while in jail to receive forgiveness is not the success story that the religious claim. According to religious doctrine, Jeffrey Dahmer will be up there in heaven experiencing eternal happiness. In this theology his victims don't get to go to heaven, because they never got the chance to accept Jesus into their hearts. They just got murdered and eaten, and their afterlife doesn't contain eternal happiness. Personally, I don't think that's a tenable or acceptable worldview.

Being accountable in this life means you can't abrogate your conscience and your responsibility to a deity. You have to admit your actions, feel your own remorse for the wrongs you did, suffer for your mistakes and to repay society in the here and now. That's a lot harder and a lot more adult than handing it all off to a god. In religious terms, you have to repay your own sins rather than pushing it all on a Jesus who died had a bad weekend for your sins.

That's not complacent. Expecting or demanding forgiveness from a deity is complacent, because you are pushing responsibility away from yourself.
 
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I know from what you have posted in the past that it means when you read of a 3 year old raped and murdered by soldiers you can just say "she's learning a lesson she needs to learn and we should be happy about that".

"But Jesus said, Suffer little children, and forbid them not, to come unto me: for of such is the kingdom of heaven."

Matthew 19:14

The bible - home of every excuse possible for atrocity.
 
I don't understand the concept of believing something because I'd rather it were true. I'm an atheist because I don't believe in gods or afterlives. My druthers don't enter into it.
 
Atheists seem to assume that people who believe in God and an afterlife are mentally weak and gullible. Thereby assuming intellectual superiority over them.
But have they considered what it means to really believe you are answerable to a higher power in everything you do?
Is it not easier and more comfortable to believe death brings oblivion, than to believe you are held accountable in an eternal afterlife?

I'm not sure what ease or comfort has to do with belief.

Is it easy? Comfortable? For me, what's easy and comfortable is what is compatible with things that I know, as opposed to opinion. Let me explain. I know that gravity is real. If there were a philosophical belief that came along that was incompatible with gravity, then it would not be comfortable to accept that philosophical belief.

On the other hand, I do not know anything about an afterlife, so a philosophical belief about it would not make me inherently uncomfortable. It passes that hurdle, so we're good so far. However, I then look at religious systems that include the belief in the afterlife, and they seem to include a lot of other beliefs that I am certain are false. For an obvious example, I know that the Bible says there is an afterlife, but it also says the Earth was created in seven days. Ok, well, one of those statements can be an allegory. But it also says that Jericho's walls were destroyed by trumpets. Well, you get the idea. Simply put, I find there to be a lot of things I don't buy into about Christianity, so the fact that they say there's a final judgement and an afterlife is no reason to believe it. I get uncomfortable with any religious based afterlife belief, because I know that some of the other elements of associated religious beliefs are not true.

Ok, but could there be an afterlife anyway? Maybe the religions are just imperfect representations of reality, but the idea of afterlife and judgement are so common in so many religions that maybe those common elements still have a factual basis, and there really is a judgement after death. At this point, there are certain things I know about behavior. There are certain sorts of brain injuries, and certain sort of illnesses that alter behavior, and, in simple terms, people who experience those injuries or illnesses become evil. So, I ask myself, would it make sense to judge people based on them having been injured? A lot of people, recognizing this problem, try to insist that God knows the difference between illness and nature, but if that's the case, I certainly don't. It seems to me that the tendency toward good or evil is a combination of factors that influence brain chemistry, and it doesn't make much sense to pass eternal judgement on something based on what his brain did after that brain is no longer in use.

Indeed, the entire concept of good and evil is a bit questionable, when one considers brain chemistry, but in the end I've decided that they are useful concepts, even if they don't have a true, deep, meaning beyond certain evolutionary adaptations that tend to promote the good of genes that are similar to your own.

In short, the idea of oblivion after death is indeed "more comfortable" than the idea of an afterlife, but only because it seems more consistent with reality.

Finally, if I happen to be wrong about that, and there is an entity of consciousness far beyond my understanding that will indeed judge me after my death, I fall back to the Buddhist teaching that says that if God exists, He is so far beyond human comprehension that there is no possibility of understanding anything about Him, including what such a being would find pleasing, so while there may be a final judgement after death, there is no possible way to understand anything about the basis for that judgement, so it should not influence what you do in life.
 
Since when is christianism the only religion? Hindus and Zoroastrians have quite other beliefs. There are hordes and legions of bleevers in Africa and South America who still follow heathen cults of every damn kind. Even Jews and Muslims differ from christianists, at least in the flavors of their miserabilism.

Buddhism must fit in there somewhere.

And my personal fave among modern religions, John Frumism, still persists down on Tanna, in the former New Hebrides, now Vanuatu.

Do I consider all those billions of people weak-minded and inferior to me? Why yes, yes I do.

Just the way you, the great christianoid, undoubtedly do too.

Scoobie do do two, Buffalo Bob.
 
I am totally untroubled by nagging doubts about whether any of the world's many religions might turn out to be true. I don't waste any more time fretting about that than about whether I might get eaten by a dinosaur. So I guess I am exactly the appropriate degree of complacent.
 
Atheists seem to assume that people who believe in God and an afterlife are mentally weak and gullible.
False.

Thereby assuming intellectual superiority over them.
False.
But have they considered what it means to really believe you are answerable to a higher power in everything you do?
Sure. And there is **** all evidence for any such nonsense.

Is it not easier and more comfortable to believe death brings oblivion, than to believe you are held accountable in an eternal afterlife?
No. Atheists accept that this is the only life we have so best make the most of it. Do your best to be the best you can, help those around you and generally make the only life more pleasant to yourself and those around you.

Theists like you consider this life to merely be a doormat where you wipe your feet of sins before entering a second life of rubbing shoulders with depraved criminals, rapists, murderers, child abusers and so forth somehow "found jesus" before their demise, paid nothing for their crimes. Along with these reprobates, you will spend eternity grovelling before a god that really is not worthy of any worship at all. Indeed any god so far described by anyone only deserves to be clearly seen through the scopes of a high power sniper rifle.

If, somehow, I wind up post mortem, unexpectedly at some version of pearly gates, I would absolutely believe in whichever god it turned out to be. I would also make it my business to kill the immoral thug. I would be morally obliged to do so. Not only am I the moral superior of your god, YOU are the moral superior of your god. Most humans are the moral superior of your god.

This will, of course, never happen because there is no evidence for any such thing so it is on the far side of likelyhood.

I and others have told you similar at various times in the past, but somehow you keep on ignoring it.

So what do we know?

We know you have a mental illness. How? Because you have described it ad nauseum over and over again right here on this forum.

OK Fair enough. Mental illness is a reality and you garnered quite some sympathetic responses. So far so good.

We know you eschew actual treatment. It wasn't that you could not get it, you had it and refused it. How do we know that? Because you described it in detail right here.

I am not making this up. Those posts are still there to be read. Were those real? Or were those entirely invented?

At this point, the well of empathy has run dry. You had it and you wasted it. That is on you and you alone.

I once believed you could be reached and even helped. I do not believe that anymore, not for a long time.
 
"But Jesus said, Suffer little children, and forbid them not, to come unto me: for of such is the kingdom of heaven."

Matthew 19:14

The bible - home of every excuse possible for atrocity.

Oh please. The word "suffer" in that quote was used in it's archaic sense of "allow/permit". It is not an instruction to make children suffer as a good thing despite the RCC nuttiness. Try not to go all Mother Theresa about it.
 
Atheists seem to assume that people who believe in God and an afterlife are mentally weak and gullible. Thereby assuming intellectual superiority over them.
Some do, unfortunately. And some of them change their minds as they get closer to death.

I will never believe in an afterlife, but I don't consider myself superior. We are all weak and gullible, and anyone who denies it is either delusional or a liar.

But have they considered what it means to really believe you are answerable to a higher power in everything you do?
Sure, and not just in the afterlife. There are higher powers in this world that need to be believed in.

Is it not easier and more comfortable to believe death brings oblivion, than to believe in an eternal afterlife?
No, it isn't. I am quite used to being answerable to higher powers. It's the idea of death being the end of everything that is more uncomfortable - in fact it's downright scary. But I don't intend to spend any of my precious time dwelling on it.

The idea of an afterlife (even one where you are held accountable) is more comforting, which is why people believe in it. Even a bad afterlife is better than being snuffed out altogether. Accepting that this world is all there is, and that one day you will face extinction no matter what you do, is the hardest thing for a conscious mind to believe. But it's a fact. There is no power higher than facts, and they are unmerciful.
 
You are like a broken record stuck in the same groove.
Badly put. The groove is in the record. The player is stuck. It is not the player's fault if the record is broken. Perhaps it's also not Darat's fault if he hits the same crack every time.

Afterlife or no afterlife, how you handle life depends on how you regard it, and just as there are theists who consider the consequences of sin as dire and behave, and others who count on mercy and second chances, there are atheists who figure nothing matters and atheists who figure they get only one chance to do things right. Life is complicated.

e.t.a. and I should note that aside from this, it does not matter a whit what would be nicer, or preferable, if you simply don't believe that a thing is true. This is one of those things that many theists seem to be blind to. You can paint all sorts of rosy pictures of how much better the world is or would be if people shared your religion, but if you don't believe it's true, it's as much a waste of time as telling us how nice the world would be if we all had unicorns to ride.
 
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I found that atheism, coming away from Christianity, simply reset me outside of Eden with the taste of the fruit of knowledge of good and evil still fresh upon my tongue. The curse of death, pain, and decay still laid about me like it always had, but this time I felt the full weight of the responsibility carried within that mythical pomegranate. I had to determine for myself what was right and what was wrong with a small mortal mind incapable of any degree of omniscience, but there had been others who have been doing the same before and others after me. In reality, however, I had but lost my fig leaf of divine answers. In truth, just as Jewish sages had noted as the metaphorical nature of the fruit, humans have been determining right and wrong for themselves all along.
 
Is it not easier and more comfortable to believe death brings oblivion, than to believe you are held accountable in an eternal afterlife?


Not by a long shot. The survival instinct is very strong.


But most Christians don't believe they will be held accountable anyway.
 
Some years ago, a little girl asked her Dad if he would ever get to see his dead parents again. He considered his answer carefully. Finally, he said that there was nothing he would like more in the world than to see his mother and father again, but that he had no reason, and no evidence, to support the idea of an afterlife, so he couldn't give in to the temptation. Then he told her, very tenderly, that it can be dangerous to believe things just because you want them to be true. You can get tricked if you don't question yourself and others, especially people in a position of authority. He told her that anything that's truly real can stand up to scrutiny.

That little girl was Sasha Sagan, her Dad was Carl.

Carl%26Sasha.jpg
 
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I would swap the word "assume" for "know", because it's true.
No matter how strongly you assert it, you can't change a belief that there are no gods into certain knowledge.

Almost half a century ago I made the statement that "religion is a crutch for the weak" and I've yet to see any reason to change that opinion.
That presupposes that believers and atheists alike know that there are no gods but believers choose to shun that "reality" for a delusion instead.

That's just plain baloney, because it's not how the enormous majority of christians act, because christianity has the get-out-of-jail-free card of pleading for forgiveness, with no limits as to what may be forgiven.

Murder a child? No worries. Accept Jesus and plead for forgiveness, and heaven shall be opened unto you.
An atheist giving lessons on scripture isn't really comment worthy but AFAIK saying "please forgive me for this murder while I plot my next murder" is not going to cut it.
 
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No matter how strongly you assert it, you can't change a belief that there are no gods into certain knowledge.

Depends on where you draw the line on "certainty". For me, the vanishingly small chance god/s might exist isn't worth considering.

Mathematics, it ain't.

That presupposes that believers and atheists alike know that there are no gods but believers choose to shun that "reality" for a delusion instead.

Yep, that's exactly what I said.

An atheist giving lessons on scripture isn't really comment worthy but AFAIK saying "please forgive me for this murder while I plot my next murder" is not going to cut it.

Except it's true. Forgiveness is universal - the bible is unequivocal and so are the vast majority of priests.
 
Depends on where you draw the line on "certainty". For me, the vanishingly small chance god/s might exist isn't worth considering.

Mathematics, it ain't.
That's the only bit that is true. You don't know how to calculate the probabilities of any of this.

Yep, that's exactly what I said.
Then the onus is on you to prove that you actually have this supernatural power that allows you to read the minds of believers.

Except it's true. Forgiveness is universal - the bible is unequivocal and so are the vast majority of priests.
That is a debate for believers.
 
This is just repackaging of the nonsense we need God or people would just go wild in the street pillaging and murdering. :rolleyes:
 
Depends on where you draw the line on "certainty". For me, the vanishingly small chance god/s might exist isn't worth considering.

Mathematics, it ain't.



Yep, that's exactly what I said.



Except it's true. Forgiveness is universal - the bible is unequivocal and so are the vast majority of priests.
I would be surprised if anything from the Bible is that unequivocal. It's a sure thing that a bunch of my Universalist ancestors took a hell of a beating for believing it was even numerically possible from members of other sects who took the Revelations seriously.

I would also question whether all theists know there is no god and shun reality. It seems to be what they recommend to atheists, but most of those who do that presume that we know there is a god and choose, for reasons unfathomable, to deny it. I think most theists really do believe there is a god, even if one chooses to think their belief faulty or even lazy, and even if it is infected with doubt.
 
Which post repackages that nonsense?

The OP and the thread title.
Are atheists too complacent?

... But have they considered what it means to really believe you are answerable to a higher power in everything you do?
Is it not easier and more comfortable to believe death brings oblivion, than to believe you are held accountable in an eternal afterlife.

Ninja'd by smartcookie. :D
 
The OP and the thread title.
The OP might believe that all people are at heart murderers and pillagers who are only held in check by the threats of judgement in the afterlife (I don't know him all that well). He is not articulating that belief about atheists in this thread.

Maybe he believes that they are held in check by the prospect of retribution in this life. That would mean that honest men are just timid criminals and the prevailing view of believers and non-believers alike is that it is only a crime if you get caught.
 
Atheists seem to assume that people who believe in God and an afterlife are mentally weak and gullible. Thereby assuming intellectual superiority over them.
But have they considered what it means to really believe you are answerable to a higher power in everything you do?
Is it not easier and more comfortable to believe death brings oblivion, than to believe you are held accountable in an eternal afterlife?

Atheists believe that everyone should be held accountable during their lifetime.

The belief in afterlife accountability has caused the maiming, murder, denying of human rights and enslaving of millions of people throughout the history of mankind.

It is a most dangerous and terrifying thing when people believe they are only accountable to their imagined all knowing God and act upon their imagination.
 
The belief in afterlife accountability has caused the maiming, murder, denying of human rights and enslaving of millions of people throughout the history of mankind.
Misguided religious belief is definitely a cause of these things but I don't think that a belief in afterlife accountability is a specific cause.
 
A belief is an odd creature. Years of repetition of a "truth" can make a believer. If that person never once questions why it is a truth isn't saying they know or don't know, its because they never bothered to think deeply about it.

Not an uncommon thing to find in people.

But, the beliefs in any god as well as any new age stuff do suffer a lack of testability or evidence that leaves a big wedge in the door to call it all empty.

An atheist or anyone else need not work very hard to prove nothing is just that.
 
Misguided religious belief is definitely a cause of these things but I don't think that a belief in afterlife accountability is a specific cause.

I'll be sure to keep an eye open for those good beliefs, and avoid those misguided ones. They have a guidebook for that, right?
 
Atheists seem to assume that people who believe in God and an afterlife are mentally weak and gullible. Thereby assuming intellectual superiority over them.

As there is no scientific hypothesis for a god or gods, and no evidence for that same non-existing hypothesis, there is no point in a rational person considering the matter at all.

It would be a complete waste of time like worrying how Superman shaves if his beard is stronger than anything on Earth....a waste of time
 
Atheists seem to assume that people who believe in God and an afterlife are mentally weak and gullible. Thereby assuming intellectual superiority over them.
In general, atheists think that those who believe in God are mistaken.

But have they considered what it means to really believe you are answerable to a higher power in everything you do?
Yes

Is it not easier and more comfortable to believe death brings oblivion, than to believe you are held accountable in an eternal afterlife?
It may be. The only consideration when parsing a belief is "Is it true?"
 
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Atheists seem to assume that people who believe in God and an afterlife are mentally weak and gullible.
Atheism is simply lack of belief in a god, and has nothing to do with assuming anything about the mental state of god believers. I believe that god beliefs are a normalised form of insanity, but that's not what defines me as being an atheist, and it doesn't mean I believe god believers are insane or mentally weak per se.

Thereby assuming intellectual superiority over them.
Only in that intellectual honesty is superior to intellectual dishonesty.

But have they considered what it means to really believe you are answerable to a higher power in everything you do?
Yep, I imagine it's much like believing in Santa.

Is it not easier and more comfortable to believe death brings oblivion, than to believe you are held accountable in an eternal afterlife?
I'm far more interested in knowing what's true, even if it's an uncomfortable truth, rather than merely believing what's emotionally easy and comfortable.
 
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