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Tags protest incidents , protest issues , Seattle incidents

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Old 23rd July 2020, 07:04 PM   #161
Puppycow
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Originally Posted by HoverBoarder View Post
I don't know if it matters if you call them Antifa, or violent protesters, or whatever you call the subsection of protesters who engage in violence, but the damage from them to businesses and people is still there. I definitely agree that Trump and Fox News have used the 'Antifa' term so broadly, that it has lost a lot of meaning, and people do not take them seriously anymore.

They will call a group of peaceful demonstrators just standing there with signs 'antifa terrorists.' It certainly does not make people believe them when there actually protesters engaging in violence.

Meanwhile, a roving band of 150 people walked around Seattle openly looting and starting fires last night, and according to the police "nothing could be done" to stop it.
Police: Roving band breaks into Seattle businesses, setting fires, looting

Seems like some kind of organized group, whether under the label of 'antifa' or no label. Does it even matter what they choose to call themselves? The point is what they are doing. And police are just letting them do it (presumably under orders from the city, which is controlled by Democrats).

Quote:
No arrests were made. No officers were injured.
So they simply allowed a mob of people to go on a rampage of destruction.

I saw this article from Anne Applebaum, btw:

Trump Is Putting On a Show in Portland

Quote:
That’s because the purpose of these troops is not to bring peace to Portland. The purpose is to transmit a message. Americans should find this tactic familiar, because we’ve seen it before. When the Trump administration cruelly separated children from their families at the southern border, that was, among other things, a performance designed to show the public just how much the president dislikes immigrants from Mexico and Honduras. The attack on demonstrators in Portland is like that: a performance designed to show just how much Trump dislikes “liberal” Americans, “urban” Americans, “Democrat” Americans. To put it differently (and to echo my colleague Adam Serwer): The chaos in Portland is not an accident. The chaos is the point.

The chaos is also a tactic, and now it will be put to use. Now that it has been deliberately escalated, the violence will provide pictures, footage, video clips, and other material for Trump’s media supporters, and eventually for his campaign advertisements. On Fox News, Sean Hannity has already denounced Portland as a “war zone.” Tucker Carlson has spoken of protesters as “mobs” who keep liberal Democrats in power. The next stage will implicate Joe Biden in this same story: The president’s aides have told journalists that Biden, if he wins, will “allow left-wing fascists to destroy America.” Protesters, mobs, chaos, fascists, the left, the “Dems”, Biden—they’re all one narrative. The Trump administration will show people pictures of its uniformed troops pushing back against them, restoring order with a strong hand. And it will use the kind of language that appeals to that part of the population that prizes safety over all else.
Students of modern dictatorship will find these tactics wearily familiar. Russian President Vladimir Putin, whom Trump admires, has deployed performative authoritarianism, alongside other tools, in order to keep himself in power for many years now. In 2014, during a political crisis in Ukraine, he created an elaborate media narrative that equated Ukrainian democracy protesters with 1940s fascists. Russian state television showed scenes of violence over and over again—scenes that Putin himself had helped create, first by encouraging the former Ukrainian president to shoot at demonstrators, and then by invading the country. He sent troops in unmarked uniforms—the infamous “little green men”—into Crimea and eventually eastern Ukraine to “dominate” the situation, to use Trump’s own word for his tactics in Portland. Or at least that was the way it was meant to look on TV.
Basically, chaos like this could be politically useful for Trump. Most people probably don't want to see their cities destroyed by mobs and for local police to just stand aside and allow it to happen. Zero arrests. If the local police can't stop this or won't this, who will?
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Old 23rd July 2020, 07:42 PM   #162
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Originally Posted by Puppycow View Post
Seems like some kind of organized group, whether under the label of 'antifa' or no label. Does it even matter what they choose to call themselves? The point is what they are doing. And police are just letting them do it (presumably under orders from the city, which is controlled by Democrats).
You are correct on that. The Seattle Council member Lisa Herbold has even said that every single protester needs to be immediately released from custody no matter what they are charged with. So far, those protesters that have been arrested for violence or other crimes have often been released the same day and are back causing destruction in less than 24 hours.


Constant repeat offenders, and immunity for those caught has been a long problem in Seattle. A primary reason for this has been a prosecutors office in Seattle that refuses to charge most crimes that are referred to him. Some police have stopped arresting for many crimes as they know it will never get prosecuted. There is an extremely well known limit of $750 that thieves need to stay under to avoid prosecution. Shoplifters will even carefully limit the merchandise they gather in stores to just under $740 and casually walk out with impunity.

Not to mention the violent crimes that are allowed to occur without abatement. Seattle businesses released a list of 100 prolific offenders in Seattle. One of whom who set fire to a business, and was released the same day to accost the woman that identified him. As well as a man who repeatedly attacked people on the street, including throwing hot coffee on a baby.

Many Seattle parents have gotten used to teaching their kids how to look for spent drug needles on the ground. Including a daycare that I know that has to scour the playground every morning for the scatted drug needles that litter the ground every morning.

Many of those problems are detailed in the well known documentary Seattle is Dying.

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I AGREE


That level of prosecution is far too strict for many, and the Seattle Council is moving to nearly or completely dismantle the police force, and remove the King County jails.

In the meantime so far, as long as someone declares their actions a part of the protest, they have complete immunity. As the popular saying goes "there is no bad protester, and no good cop."
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Old 23rd July 2020, 07:52 PM   #163
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Many people laugh at the Seattle Superhero Pheonex Jones who roams around Seattle with a full outfit and pepper Spray trying to prevent people from being assaulted or attacked, and who also has been arrested for selling drugs.

It is a pretty hilarious notion for many people, but there have been a few cases where he has actually saved a few peoples lives.

That somewhat amusing situation will be replaced with a lot of inexperienced new gun owners who will be anxiously ready to shoot potential criminals as the council moves forward to replace the admittedly flawed social safety they had from police, with social workers who will help them navigate the trauma of their new hyper violent reality.
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Old 24th July 2020, 09:31 AM   #164
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Originally Posted by Puppycow View Post
What do you mean when you say "not a thing"?

Do you believe that racism is a thing?

For example.
This is getting bizarre. Of course racism is a thing, and lies at the root of all this. Tasmania is a thing as well, and just as relevant.

"Antifa" is not a thing in much the same way that the Deep State is not a thing. I don't know where the rather silly name arose, but probably a hashtag or something similar. Some people like to associate themselves with the word, and who doesn't like being seen fighting the good fight against fascism? Others like to point to it as another Soros-financed scheme to bring down all that is good and pure in the world and that BLM is part of it. If it was a thing it would have been declared a terrorist organisation by now, but we've heard no more of that scheme, have we?
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Old 24th July 2020, 09:48 AM   #165
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Quote:
Mayors across the United States have rejected Donald Trump’s election-season depiction of their cities as awash in violence, and media coverage of peaceful protests in Portland and elsewhere has belied the president’s claims of widespread “anarchy”.
But for Americans who mainly consume conservative media, Trump’s latest evocation of an “American carnage”, with “a shocking explosion of shootings, killings, murders and heinous crimes of violence” is as plain as the news flashing across the screen.
https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/...otests-anarchy


I suspected this would be the case. The world is a terrifying place for Fox News watchers, with all the chaos and destruction and burning cities and murderous illegal immigrants looting all that is good and pure and easy to fence. Something must be done to crush this organised insurrection! Those guys in Selma knew how to get the job done, but these days the Democrats who want open borders and no police at all won't let them do their job. It's a damn shame.
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Old 24th July 2020, 01:44 PM   #166
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Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger View Post
I was addressing what you posted.
Who's "they"? So the dog whistle means protests to some and revolution to others.
"They" are the literal people that were quoted in the article I was responding to here. Obviously there is no completely uniformed opinion, as is the case on basically any subject. Hopefully you aren't trying to dismiss the discussion because of that.



Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger View Post
Yes, Trump has been calling protests with a couple hundred to a couple 1000 people on a couple streets taking over a city of 750,000+ (Seattle not counting all the connected suburbs) or Portland (665,000)

I get that you love to insert Trump into any conversation but it has zero to do with what I am talking about.


Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger View Post
First off, the protests had been dying down here in Seattle, there was a small protest march invaded by an even smaller group of window smashers.

Portland's protests were also small and getting smaller until federal agents moved in to start violently opposing the protesters. People came out to protest for a new cause: oppose the secret police.

What you describe was not happening. Protests were not "escalating". They stopped blocking the freeways and attempts to block onramps/offramps were stopped by the police.

I guess you are focusing this discussion on Portland and Seattle because you are most familiar with them but my replies as well as the thread do not really revolve around them only. When I said escalation, I am talking about a protest escalating into a riot / peaceful protest -> violent protest. And how the people that were referenced in the article are in turn normalizing the violence and using comparisons of popular revolutions as if those are good examples.



Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger View Post
Edited to add: The news is reporting they believe the bat wielding group were related to a Portland group. There has been a small group of declared "anarchists" showing up at past protests like the WTO protests. They like to break windows. Few if any people want them here and they certainly aren't a welcome part of the protesters.

People often latch onto protests with their own causes as if it makes the protest about their cause. It ruins protests, they aren't wanted and sometimes they get blocked sometimes they don't.

The only cause they serve is giving fuel to people opposing the protesters. It's possible the anarchists expect to start a revolution like T McVeigh though blowing up the Murrow building would start a revolution.
I agree with you about the anarchists. There is almost always a clear distinction when I watch live streaming from protests of the groups and tactics being used. But there is definitely more discussion normalizing the violent elements in protests. I remember seeing a poll from early June that had Democrats at somewhere near one in three approving of violent protests in response to a police killing (Republicans were closer to 1 in 9). That's far from fringe.

While the more seasoned protesters are able to keep their groups in line with their goals, the larger these events get the more the majority mindset of what is acceptable will make a difference.
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Old 24th July 2020, 07:51 PM   #167
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Originally Posted by Brainster View Post
These types of issues seem to swing from one side to the other like a pendulum. If the cops police too aggressively, citizen complaints (some legit) go up. If they don't police aggressively enough, crime goes up. It seems obvious to me that the cops are going to police a whole lot less aggressively in the major cities that have been hit by the demonstrations and riots, particularly in places like Seattle and Portland, where the elected leaders have undercut any effort by the police to restore order.
Haha, no, that's stupid. The actual complaint is that the neighborhoods are both overpoliced, with police driving around and beating people at random, and simultaneously underpoliced, in that 911 calls woulg get no responses at all. In other words, it's that the resource allocation is entirely broken, all the time.

What *actually* happens in these cases is that one of the cops outright murder some black dude for little to no reason, people protest, police immediately start blasting tear gas and beating the **** out of random people, and then everyone decides "well, I'm not calling these violent thugs for anything". They stop calling to the cops, for the same reason I did - and for the same reason I won't play with wild animals. They are known to be dangerous.

That whole "Ferguson Effect" where the black brutes scared the poor, heavily armed cops into hiding, that the notably racist Heather Mac Donald came up with? Here's something with actual evidence:

Quote:
The study makes for a grim chronicle. On October 23, 2004, Jude and a black male friend arrived at a private party in a white middle-class neighborhood as guests of two white women college students. Shortly after arriving, the four headed to their vehicle, but it was soon surrounded by at least 10 men.

The men accused Jude and his friend of stealing Andrew Spengler’s police badge, and all four were pulled from their truck. Jude’s male friend had “his face slit with a knife” and escaped, according to the authors. Jude suffered blows to his face and torso; his arms were pinned behind his back; he was kicked in the head; an officer stomped on his face “until he heard bones breaking;” he was picked up and kicked in the groin so hard “his feet left the ground;” he had a pen inserted deep into his ear canals; his fingers were “bent back” until “they snapped;” before finally being left naked from the waist down on the sidewalk in a pool of his own blood.

A total of 22,200 fewer calls were made to 911 during the year following Jude’s beating, according to the researchers, with over half of that loss (56 percent) happening in black neighborhoods. The authors of the study see the significant decline as worrisome given how heavily police work depends on resident-initiated interactions, such as calling the emergency line. “Police work of every kind relies on citizen participation, especially reports of law breaking … If police misconduct lowers crime reporting throughout black communities, it directly threatens public safety within those communities, many of which already have high levels of crime,” the authors concluded in the article.
In the end, homicides shot up by 32 percent. Another note: the vast majorities of these murders occur because some dude feels "disrespected" by some other dude, so he shoots him. If you aren't in that narrow demographic, you'll likely live - and you also will if you simply don't get involved in that sort of thing (the enraging exception is black trans women). But teenagers and guys in their young 20s are hot-headed, so they're the most likely murderers and victims.

The one time two NYPD officers were killed by some lunatic from Maryland, and they completely withdrew, most of the men said that they felt *safer*, because they didn't have to worry that some guy would run up screaming, throw them into a wall, dig in their pockets, and then threaten that they'd better not be there in 10 minutes.
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Old 24th July 2020, 08:10 PM   #168
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Originally Posted by HoverBoarder View Post
The really ironic thing, is that I don't think that many of the white protesters and politicians who support policies like these realize how incredibly racist they are being towards black people.


They can be incredibly 'woke,' and follow the tenets of the anti "whiteness" doctrines of White Fragility. They destroy stores (some of whom are black owned), destroy people's lives, and can feel incredibly vindicated when telling police officers that they should kill themselves. However, the reality is that all of those actions are completely self serving.

If their only legacy from those actions is that they have destroyed a lot of things, and create policies that kill hundreds or thousands of black people who did not have to die, than they are no better than the KKK members who outright state that as their goal. In fact, they likely will kill more black people than the whole KKK organization has done in its entire existence. The only real difference is that the KKK members are honest with themselves about their goals, and the results of their actions.

So far no amount of actions from Black leaders has been able to get them to stop. At CHOP in Seattle, the official BLM chapter members were shouted down and cursed at by largely white protesters for hijacking the Black Lives Matter movement message, and hindering their attempts to make real and lasting change for the black community.

The 'Defund the Police' movement has been one of the most racist efforts by largely white protesters and politicians who refuse to look at the selfish, and tragically deadly affects of their actions.
A bunch of pseudo-conservative drivel, complete with a ridiculous of slang taken from black twitter and nightmares of wild-eyed black brutes leveling cities and slaughtering thousands. Wanna discuss mass rapes of white women as well? Teach cops to behave themselves around black and indigenous people. Tell them to stop choking people out over "loitering" or "smell of marijuana", move more of them into detective units, test the rape kit backlog (and I mean *all* of them) and let people in summer spray each other with water guns without flipping out.

And if there's a protest, just move back, wear the normal uniform, and let everyone march and chant.

I mean, I grew up in one of these communities, and mentored kids in another. I've been saying the same thing for years, based on what every person has said. This Is Not Difficult. Oh, and they can't have their MRAPs and tear gas and the like. They keep hitting other people with their toys, so they lose them.

Damn, how racist was your post is what I want to know. What in the name of Beelzebub makes you think they want anything but to not worry about having their lives ruined or ended whenever the cops show up? We've been screaming it, in unison, for ******* decades!
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Old 24th July 2020, 08:19 PM   #169
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Originally Posted by rdwight View Post
"They" are the literal people that were quoted in the article I was responding to here. Obviously there is no completely uniformed opinion, as is the case on basically any subject. Hopefully you aren't trying to dismiss the discussion because of that.

I get that you love to insert Trump into any conversation but it has zero to do with what I am talking about.

I guess you are focusing this discussion on Portland and Seattle because you are most familiar with them but my replies as well as the thread do not really revolve around them only. When I said escalation, I am talking about a protest escalating into a riot / peaceful protest -> violent protest. And how the people that were referenced in the article are in turn normalizing the violence and using comparisons of popular revolutions as if those are good examples.

I agree with you about the anarchists. There is almost always a clear distinction when I watch live streaming from protests of the groups and tactics being used. But there is definitely more discussion normalizing the violent elements in protests. I remember seeing a poll from early June that had Democrats at somewhere near one in three approving of violent protests in response to a police killing (Republicans were closer to 1 in 9). That's far from fringe.

While the more seasoned protesters are able to keep their groups in line with their goals, the larger these events get the more the majority mindset of what is acceptable will make a difference.
There are no riots in this whole damn country.

There are a lot of peaceful protests. There are a few idiots smashing windows. There are a few idiots smashing storefronts and looting a few stores.

Have you ever seen a real riot in this country? There have been a few. Watts, Detroit, LA, to name a couple of the actual riots.
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Old 24th July 2020, 08:34 PM   #170
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Originally Posted by rdwight View Post
I agree with you about the anarchists. There is almost always a clear distinction when I watch live streaming from protests of the groups and tactics being used. But there is definitely more discussion normalizing the violent elements in protests. I remember seeing a poll from early June that had Democrats at somewhere near one in three approving of violent protests in response to a police killing (Republicans were closer to 1 in 9). That's far from fringe.
I DON'T BUY YOUR ANONYMOUS POLL for a SECOND.

People that are treated like animals are likely at some point going to bite the hands of their abusers. Do they sit back and allow themselves to be abused forever? I don't agree or approve of violence in any fashion. That said, I understand how being treated as second class citizens for generations may lead to it.

The problem with Republicans is they won't even acknowledge there are issues. A GOP talking point is to deny the obvious and insist that systemic racist isn't a problem.
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Old 24th July 2020, 09:07 PM   #171
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Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger View Post
There are no riots in this whole damn country.

There are a lot of peaceful protests. There are a few idiots smashing windows. There are a few idiots smashing storefronts and looting a few stores.

Have you ever seen a real riot in this country? There have been a few. Watts, Detroit, LA, to name a couple of the actual riots.
This is again why I feel like there is little benefit in having a conversation with you. You want to argue semantics instead of the point or the broader issue. And it is barely semantics, more just if the words you see match your personal definition of things.

Look at the cost of property damage in regards to these "protests" and let my know how they match up to any of your named "riots" in value. Feel free to ignore all points and nuance with others if you feel like it wins you some kind of internet points.
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Old 24th July 2020, 09:13 PM   #172
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Originally Posted by rdwight View Post
This is again why I feel like there is little benefit in having a conversation with you. You want to argue semantics instead of the point or the broader issue. And it is barely semantics, more just if the words you see match your personal definition of things.

Look at the cost of property damage in regards to these "protests" and let my know how they match up to any of your named "riots" in value. Feel free to ignore all points and nuance with others if you feel like it wins you some kind of internet points.
I mean, if you want to say the cops and Dolt 45's goon squad were rioting, I could agree to that one. I wouldn't be shocked if even the (rather small) fires were actually caused by the flaming cans of noxious fumes and the flashbangs that these knuckleheads have been firing around thoughtlessly.

ETA: Looks like at least a few of the ones in this video were.

Last edited by Mumbles; 24th July 2020 at 09:20 PM.
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Old 24th July 2020, 09:20 PM   #173
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Originally Posted by acbytesla View Post
I DON'T BUY YOUR ANONYMOUS POLL for a SECOND.
This is the poll i am referring to. You can take it however you want really.

Originally Posted by acbytesla View Post
People that are treated like animals are likely at some point going to bite the hands of their abusers. Do they sit back and allow themselves to be abused forever? I don't agree or approve of violence in any fashion. That said, I understand how being treated as second class citizens for generations may lead to it.

The problem with Republicans is they won't even acknowledge there are issues. A GOP talking point is to deny the obvious and insist that systemic racist isn't a problem.
And if the ones being violent aren't actually a part of the 'abused, second class citizens'? Should we ignore and forgive when middle class white kids cause destruction in locations they don't actually live in, in the name of people they don't actually know or understand? There can't be the idea that anarchist are causing mayhem despite BLM protesters and that righteous rebellion is happening by an underclass population. Switching back and forth depending on which you see in any given footage does not incite confidence.
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Old 24th July 2020, 09:30 PM   #174
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Originally Posted by Mumbles View Post
I mean, if you want to say the cops and Dolt 45's goon squad were rioting, I could agree to that one. I wouldn't be shocked if even the (rather small) fires were actually caused by the flaming cans of noxious fumes and the flashbangs that these knuckleheads have been firing around thoughtlessly.

ETA: Looks like at least a few of the ones in this video were.
I am not on the ground, nor do I feel like it is a necessary component to draw an opinion. You link a 7 minute video from one location when I've watched hours and hours on live stream, on the ground, in the moment video of protesters in real time. No editing, no picking and choosing which stuff to see. Just how it is happening to the people there.

You can easily pick your footage if you want to just justify the view point you already have but the reality is dirty, nuanced and not as simple as some seem to want to paint it. If you just want cheerleaders that paint each side as all good/evil, there are plenty of better places than here to find them. But discussing the drawbacks and effectiveness of any given strategy shouldn't be some taboo discussion.

Last edited by rdwight; 24th July 2020 at 09:45 PM.
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Old 24th July 2020, 10:25 PM   #175
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Originally Posted by rdwight View Post
This is again why I feel like there is little benefit in having a conversation with you. You want to argue semantics instead of the point or the broader issue. And it is barely semantics, more just if the words you see match your personal definition of things.

Look at the cost of property damage in regards to these "protests" and let my know how they match up to any of your named "riots" in value. Feel free to ignore all points and nuance with others if you feel like it wins you some kind of internet points.
It's not semantics. There's a very clear difference between a small group of people vandalizing some stores and a riot!

Calling these incidents riots is falsely portraying what is going on.

So yeah, probably no point in having a discussion if you describe what is going on dishonestly.
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Last edited by Skeptic Ginger; 24th July 2020 at 10:27 PM.
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Old 24th July 2020, 10:31 PM   #176
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Originally Posted by Mumbles View Post
I mean, if you want to say the cops and Dolt 45's goon squad were rioting, I could agree to that one. I wouldn't be shocked if even the (rather small) fires were actually caused by the flaming cans of noxious fumes and the flashbangs that these knuckleheads have been firing around thoughtlessly.

ETA: Looks like at least a few of the ones in this video were.
Holy cow! That's the 60-70s all over again. The military guys are downright nasty.
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Old 24th July 2020, 10:35 PM   #177
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Originally Posted by rdwight View Post
I am not on the ground, nor do I feel like it is a necessary component to draw an opinion. You link a 7 minute video from one location when I've watched hours and hours on live stream, on the ground, in the moment video of protesters in real time. No editing, no picking and choosing which stuff to see. Just how it is happening to the people there.

You can easily pick your footage if you want to just justify the view point you already have but the reality is dirty, nuanced and not as simple as some seem to want to paint it. If you just want cheerleaders that paint each side as all good/evil, there are plenty of better places than here to find them. But discussing the drawbacks and effectiveness of any given strategy shouldn't be some taboo discussion.
Do you know the difference between civilians and armed services? Know why armed services are supposed to deescalate the situation, not just attack people they are pissed at.
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Old 25th July 2020, 09:20 AM   #178
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Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger View Post
It's not semantics. There's a very clear difference between a small group of people vandalizing some stores and a riot!
Under US Federal Law, a riot is defined as follows:

Quote:
A public disturbance involving (1) an act or acts of violence by one or more persons part of an assemblage of three or more persons, which act or acts shall constitute a clear and present danger of, or shall result in, damage or injury to the property of any other person or to the person of any other individual or (2) a threat or threats of the commission of an act or acts of violence by one or more persons part of an assemblage of three or more persons having, individually or collectively, the ability of immediate execution of such threat or threats, where the performance of the threatened act or acts of violence would constitute a clear and present danger of, or would result in, damage or injury to the property of any other person or to the person of any other individual.
So unless your small group of people vandalizing some stores is actually just two people, calling it a riot is quite appropriate.
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Old 25th July 2020, 09:56 AM   #179
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Originally Posted by Brainster View Post
Under US Federal Law, a riot is defined as follows:







So unless your small group of people vandalizing some stores is actually just two people, calling it a riot is quite appropriate.
Okay, but the strict reading you insist on could also accurately describe police behavior and I feel like they do it even more often, with far greater numbers and coordination than the troublemakers hiding amongst protestors. Then throw on the greater expectations of state agents, etc.
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Old 25th July 2020, 01:55 PM   #180
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Originally Posted by Brainster View Post
So unless your small group of people vandalizing some stores is actually just two people, calling it a riot is quite appropriate.
And a brawl between two sports-fans in an assemblage of tens of thousands of sports-fans can appropriately be called a riot. That would, of course, paint a false image of the incident, but I'm not dismissing the possibility that that's your intent when you use the term, pearls appropriately clutched in trembling hand.
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Old 25th July 2020, 01:59 PM   #181
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Originally Posted by Delphic Oracle View Post
Okay, but the strict reading you insist on could also accurately describe police behavior and I feel like they do it even more often, with far greater numbers and coordination than the troublemakers hiding amongst protestors. Then throw on the greater expectations of state agents, etc.
I'm not sure what expectations to have of state agents whose usual task is to comb through hand-luggage for inappropriate volumes of shampoo.
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Old 25th July 2020, 04:02 PM   #182
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Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger View Post
It's not semantics. There's a very clear difference between a small group of people vandalizing some stores and a riot!

Calling these incidents riots is falsely portraying what is going on.

So yeah, probably no point in having a discussion if you describe what is going on dishonestly.
FWIW, this is how Portland Police define a riot
Quote:
RIOT: Six or more persons engaging in tumultuous and violent conduct and therby intentionaly or recklessly creating a grave risk of causing public alarm, excluding persons who are engaged in passive resistance.
If we were to go by this definition, the protests at the Justice Center have turned into riots each and every evening.

BTW, I went to the Justice Center and Chapman Square where they were cooking Riot Ribs . I think even some of the rioters see these as riots. I didn't get any ribs. I found the entire scene down there profoundly and deeply depressing. I believe we are witnessing urban decay in real-time. Nobody can keep a business open down there. There was a stabbing last night nearby.
Compare and contrast that with the protest happening near my neighborhood: not a single police officer in sight and why would there be? These protesters are not explicitly and intentionally seeking out conflict with police unlike the people at the Justice Center.
I love my city and we've had some really good mayors like Vera Katz that made the Eastbank Esplanade and helped turn downtown into a vibrant and welcoming place. Now it is a disaster.
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Old 25th July 2020, 06:39 PM   #183
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Originally Posted by portlandatheist View Post
FWIW, this is how Portland Police define a riot

If we were to go by this definition, the protests at the Justice Center have turned into riots each and every evening.

BTW, I went to the Justice Center and Chapman Square where they were cooking Riot Ribs . I think even some of the rioters see these as riots. I didn't get any ribs. I found the entire scene down there profoundly and deeply depressing. I believe we are witnessing urban decay in real-time. Nobody can keep a business open down there. There was a stabbing last night nearby.
Compare and contrast that with the protest happening near my neighborhood: not a single police officer in sight and why would there be? These protesters are not explicitly and intentionally seeking out conflict with police unlike the people at the Justice Center.
I love my city and we've had some really good mayors like Vera Katz that made the Eastbank Esplanade and helped turn downtown into a vibrant and welcoming place. Now it is a disaster.
It will come back. Democracy is messy. Out of curiosity, how many reporters reported on the protest near your neighborhood?
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Old 25th July 2020, 06:56 PM   #184
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Originally Posted by acbytesla View Post
It will come back. Democracy is messy. Out of curiosity, how many reporters reported on the protest near your neighborhood?
I don't really know. I think there is likely only light coverage in comparison to what is happening at the justice center. I watch kgw and typically catch "The Story" every night with Dan Haggerty. They have shown the protests at Revolution Hall, a staging area before they march downtown and these are the family-style protests but this is just a small part of their coverage. I will say this much: the protesters have all the media attention they could ever want.
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Old 25th July 2020, 07:29 PM   #185
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Originally Posted by portlandatheist View Post
I don't really know. I think there is likely only light coverage in comparison to what is happening at the justice center. I watch kgw and typically catch "The Story" every night with Dan Haggerty. They have shown the protests at Revolution Hall, a staging area before they march downtown and these are the family-style protests but this is just a small part of their coverage. I will say this much: the protesters have all the media attention they could ever want.
This is the crux of the problem. The powers that be will ignore you if they can. You have to give society a reason to change.

I'm not sure how old you are, but these protests are minor compared to the anti-Vietnam and Civil Rights protests of the 60s.
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Old 25th July 2020, 09:38 PM   #186
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Originally Posted by acbytesla View Post
It will come back.
If you're a small business owner in that neighborhood, do you think you could afford to stay there? Keep in mind, this is coming right on the heels of the two month or more lockdown. Odds are decent any equipment you had is trashed, any inventory stolen, etc. And no end in sight, no reason to believe that even if it dies down for a month or two that it won't happen again.

South Central LA has come back a bit, but it took decades. Watts is still a disaster area 55 years later. Detroit? I hear Newark is actually pretty nice these days, but again, that's a very long time.
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Old 25th July 2020, 09:50 PM   #187
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Originally Posted by Brainster View Post
If you're a small business owner in that neighborhood, do you think you could afford to stay there? Keep in mind, this is coming right on the heels of the two month or more lockdown. Odds are decent any equipment you had is trashed, any inventory stolen, etc. And no end in sight, no reason to believe that even if it dies down for a month or two that it won't happen again.

South Central LA has come back a bit, but it took decades. Watts is still a disaster area 55 years later. Detroit? I hear Newark is actually pretty nice these days, but again, that's a very long time.
The COVID virus has been a far greater problem for those businesses. But frankly, I think a far greater problem is the institutional racism and the use of secret police. I've also seen small businesses destroyed by huge corporations.

I certainly don't like to see anyone's business fail. But I also don't like to see people killed by police officers either.
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Old 26th July 2020, 03:35 PM   #188
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Originally Posted by acbytesla View Post
The COVID virus has been a far greater problem for those businesses.
There were only 15 cases heading towards zero months ago. How can the invisible Chinese virus have caused problems?

Quote:
But frankly, I think a far greater problem is the institutional racism and the use of secret police.
That's bad, but acceptable. It's people who don't accept it who've caused the problem, because they hate Trump (and, by extension, the United States).
Quote:
I've also seen small businesses destroyed by huge corporations.
Small businesses have been destroyed by Trump's refusal to pay them what he owes them.
Quote:
I certainly don't like to see anyone's business fail. But I also don't like to see people killed by police officers either.
Can you not just accept that the world is never going to be perfect?
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Old 26th July 2020, 04:12 PM   #189
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It looks like the stabbing victim the other night was a black conservative activist and the perp was Antifa and convicted pedophile.
Video from the hospital
To the credit of the protesters, they held him until police could arrive and arrest the perp. I'm not sure of the credibility of the jewish voice, other news outlets are naming the perp and victim, but not their backgrounds/motivations.
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Old 26th July 2020, 04:31 PM   #190
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[quote=portlandatheist;13168837 I think even some of the rioters see these as riots.[/quote]
Well, duh. They're there for the riot.
Quote:
I didn't get any ribs. I found the entire scene down there profoundly and deeply depressing. I believe we are witnessing urban decay in real-time.
You've just noticed? Urban decay's been going on since the Reagan/Thatcher victories in 1979-80, aka the Chicago School Discontinuity.
Quote:
Nobody can keep a business open down there. There was a stabbing last night nearby.
Compare and contrast that with the protest happening near my neighborhood: not a single police officer in sight and why would there be?
Indeed, why would there be?
Quote:
These protesters are not explicitly and intentionally seeking out conflict with police unlike the people at the Justice Center
And yet Trump will still call any protest a riot and any protester "antifa".
Quote:
I love my city and we've had some really good mayors like Vera Katz that made the Eastbank Esplanade and helped turn downtown into a vibrant and welcoming place. Now it is a disaster.
One that was waiting to happen, apparently. Apart from covid-19, the combination of ubiquitous video-capture and police killings was bound to produce something as graphic as the casual murder of George Floyd - the first event in the chain which brought Portland to where it is.

The situation in Portland is peculiar, for all the efforts to portray it as universal in US cities. From what I've read it does have more than its fair share of peculiarities, one being an unusual appetite for protest and demonstration going back many decades. An additional one is that it was where the new issue of covert feds first emerged and has injected fresh energy. The triumvirate of Trump, Barr and Wolf chose to test out there scheme there for reasons which are (and may forever remain) obscure. We can have our suspicions, of course, and no doubt will.
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Old 26th July 2020, 04:43 PM   #191
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Originally Posted by acbytesla View Post
I'm not sure how old you are, but these protests are minor compared to the anti-Vietnam and Civil Rights protests of the 60s.
I remember those (and the Civil Rights riots in Northern Ireland : the Provos and Black Panthers were things) and it's a sad indictment of the media's decline since then that I could see them on broadcast news - block after block ablaze, it looked apocalyptic - on this side of the Atlantic but now I have to read a thread like this to learn that Portland has been destroyed and many US cities are on the verge of being overwhelmed. "More connected" world my arse.

I remember Kent State as well, and police riots in Alabama and Chicago.At least we're not there yet.
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Old 26th July 2020, 05:15 PM   #192
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Originally Posted by CapelDodger View Post
Well, duh. They're there for the riot.
You've just noticed? Urban decay's been going on since the Reagan/Thatcher victories in 1979-80, aka the Chicago School Discontinuity.
Just to address this one point for a moment. We went through quite a profound and pronounced period of urban revitalization from 1995-2000 ish. We built a light rail system. We built the Eastbank Esplanade and many other walking/biking access. We completely transformed the Pearl District from a drug trafficers paradise to some of the most desirable real estate in the city. We had great zoning laws to make downtown retail and restaurant friendly as possible. Sorry for a bit of a distraction but this is a real concern of many people living here.
Downtown Portland businesses, derailed by pandemic, say protests present a new challenge[Oregon live article]
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Old 26th July 2020, 05:46 PM   #193
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Originally Posted by CapelDodger View Post
I remember those (and the Civil Rights riots in Northern Ireland : the Provos and Black Panthers were things) and it's a sad indictment of the media's decline since then that I could see them on broadcast news - block after block ablaze, it looked apocalyptic - on this side of the Atlantic but now I have to read a thread like this to learn that Portland has been destroyed and many US cities are on the verge of being overwhelmed. "More connected" world my arse.

I remember Kent State as well, and police riots in Alabama and Chicago.At least we're not there yet.
Portland hasn't been destroyed. This is like the exaggeration that the Protest or Chop zone in Seattle was like the entire city.
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Old 26th July 2020, 06:07 PM   #194
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Originally Posted by acbytesla View Post
Portland hasn't been destroyed. This is like the exaggeration that the Protest or Chop zone in Seattle was like the entire city.
I took tons of photos and videos of downtown from yesterday. It is boarded up for blocks. It truly looks terrible.
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Old 26th July 2020, 06:12 PM   #195
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Police in Austin, Texas are investigating the fatal shooting of a protester at an anti-racism march.

Garrett Foster was pushing his fiancée's wheelchair at the protest when a car drove into the crowd, his mother Sheila Foster told US media.

As demonstrators approached the car, someone inside the vehicle opened fire on the group.

Mr Foster was taken to hospital, but was pronounced dead shortly afterwards. Police have arrested a suspect.


https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-53548415
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Old 26th July 2020, 06:14 PM   #196
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Originally Posted by portlandatheist View Post
Just to address this one point for a moment. We went through quite a profound and pronounced period of urban revitalization from 1995-2000 ish. We built a light rail system. We built the Eastbank Esplanade and many other walking/biking access. We completely transformed the Pearl District from a drug trafficers paradise to some of the most desirable real estate in the city. We had great zoning laws to make downtown retail and restaurant friendly as possible. Sorry for a bit of a distraction but this is a real concern of many people living here.
Downtown Portland businesses, derailed by pandemic, say protests present a new challenge[Oregon live article]
Forgive my flippancy. I do appreciate that people of good intention have made geat strides against the general tide, and I hope that much of it will survive. I have no sympathy for the rioters, who are in it for the buzz of running riot, and every sympathy for those they harm in pursuit of their entertainment.
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Old 26th July 2020, 06:15 PM   #197
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Originally Posted by acbytesla View Post
Portland hasn't been destroyed. This is like the exaggeration that the Protest or Chop zone in Seattle was like the entire city.
I appreciate that. I should have more recourse to the irony sign.
ETA : Memories of "You are now entering Free Derry" do put the CHOP zone in perspective.
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Old 26th July 2020, 06:18 PM   #198
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Originally Posted by portlandatheist View Post
I took tons of photos and videos of downtown from yesterday. It is boarded up for blocks. It truly looks terrible.
Remember the WTO riots in Seattle? Same thing. Seattle came back. Portland is a great city. Boards can be removed.
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Old 26th July 2020, 06:29 PM   #199
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Originally Posted by portlandatheist View Post
It looks like the stabbing victim the other night was a black conservative activist and the perp was Antifa and convicted pedophile.
Video from the hospital
To the credit of the protesters, they held him until police could arrive and arrest the perp. I'm not sure of the credibility of the jewish voice, other news outlets are naming the perp and victim, but not their backgrounds/motivations.
The stabbing victim has been released from the hospital[KGW news]
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Old 27th July 2020, 01:13 AM   #200
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Originally Posted by HoverBoarder View Post
The really ironic thing, is that I don't think that many of the white protesters and politicians who support policies like these realize how incredibly racist they are being towards black people.


They can be incredibly 'woke,' and follow the tenets of the anti "whiteness" doctrines of White Fragility. They destroy stores (some of whom are black owned), destroy people's lives, and can feel incredibly vindicated when telling police officers that they should kill themselves. However, the reality is that all of those actions are completely self serving.

If their only legacy from those actions is that they have destroyed a lot of things, and create policies that kill hundreds or thousands of black people who did not have to die, than they are no better than the KKK members who outright state that as their goal. In fact, they likely will kill more black people than the whole KKK organization has done in its entire existence. The only real difference is that the KKK members are honest with themselves about their goals, and the results of their actions.

So far no amount of actions from Black leaders has been able to get them to stop. At CHOP in Seattle, the official BLM chapter members were shouted down and cursed at by largely white protesters for hijacking the Black Lives Matter movement message, and hindering their attempts to make real and lasting change for the black community.


The 'Defund the Police' movement has been one of the most racist efforts by largely white protesters and politicians who refuse to look at the selfish, and tragically deadly affects of their actions.
Originally Posted by Mumbles View Post
A bunch of pseudo-conservative drivel, complete with a ridiculous of slang taken from black twitter and nightmares of wild-eyed black brutes leveling cities and slaughtering thousands. Wanna discuss mass rapes of white women as well? Teach cops to behave themselves around black and indigenous people. Tell them to stop choking people out over "loitering" or "smell of marijuana", move more of them into detective units, test the rape kit backlog (and I mean *all* of them) and let people in summer spray each other with water guns without flipping out.

And if there's a protest, just move back, wear the normal uniform, and let everyone march and chant.

I mean, I grew up in one of these communities, and mentored kids in another. I've been saying the same thing for years, based on what every person has said. This Is Not Difficult. Oh, and they can't have their MRAPs and tear gas and the like. They keep hitting other people with their toys, so they lose them.

Damn, how racist was your post is what I want to know. What in the name of Beelzebub makes you think they want anything but to not worry about having their lives ruined or ended whenever the cops show up? We've been screaming it, in unison, for ******* decades!
Sounds like the truth hurts. Good.

Understand that I am not trying to win points, or score gotchas. You have thousands of people who are advocating for sending hundreds or thousands of people to their deaths. With many of those deaths are from the same groups of people who they are disingenuously pretending to help support. All because they refuse to look at the deadly problems of the 'defund the police' and 'abolish the police' slogans.


Simply put, Social Services is not some magic buzz word that you can just click your red heels together three times and say the magic words, and all of societies problems will go away. There are some situations where more social workers would make a positive difference like mental health crises, and some situations like armed robberies, or rapes, or murder investigations where replacing police with social workers would just end up leading to more assaults and murders.

I certainly do not doubt that those people supporting these policies mean well. However, the people who refuse to look at the problems of the defund the police movement because it is too much effort to think about, just shows that they are more interested in quickly clearing their conscious from any guilt they may feel from the social inequities in our society, than they are in making real and meaningful positive change. A terribly selfish move that they are willing to make, even at the cost of the lives of the people that they are pretending to support.

The people who die from that irresponsible plan are not just cold statistics, but real people with families, and hopes, and dreams. Their cries for pain are ignored because it is not politically convenient for some people to think about. Those deaths are ignored, along with the evidence that shows that cuts in police without a real replacement for the public services they provide, just leads to more murders. All because it does not fit the defund supporters political biases to honestly consider.


You have thousands of people happily about to claim hundreds or thousands of lives with the same heartless disinterest as seasoned murderers. All for largely their own selfish reasons.

If people feel slight discomfort before they go on to commit mass murder, it is hard to feel sorry for them.
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