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Tags language , racial slurs , racism issues , semantics , Stephen Hagan

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Old 25th July 2020, 06:00 AM   #281
bluesjnr
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Originally Posted by Sideroxylon View Post
It won’t ride a salty reactionary Facebook wave that is for sure.
Just an observation and no offence meant but have you just learned how to use "salt" and "salty" in this way or are you getting paid per mention.
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Old 25th July 2020, 06:02 AM   #282
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Originally Posted by Belz... View Post
Repeating the word "reactionary" all the time isn't making much of a point. It's really an ad hominem.
You only noticed the constant repetition of "reactionary".... you're slipping.
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Old 25th July 2020, 08:55 AM   #283
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Originally Posted by cullennz View Post
Come on people. I know it was a grandad joke but it's funny still......or stilton

Brie honest, it wasn't that gouda joke.
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Old 25th July 2020, 09:07 AM   #284
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Originally Posted by bluesjnr View Post
Not that I want to encourage barracking your wife but would you be willing to ask her exactly why she wouldn't buy it?

What is the specific reason?

I'm genuinely interested as the only reason I can think of (in my limited capacity as a white person) is that she thinks it supports a racist agenda on the part of the manufacturer.
Because 'coon' is insulting.

She is uninterested in the professed history because such 'reasonable reasons' why a racial insult isn't insulting in this case because... whatever are so common and insincere. Such stories come down to "You are too stupid to understand how you are being insulted." Pretty much exactly what is going on in this thread.

Even *IF* the owner was sincerely unaware of the impact of "coon" in the casually racist atmosphere of the time, the people going on and on in this thread about how not offended they are, are in fact aware of the insult and seem to delight in repeating a racist slur over and over, because you know, they do not intend to be insulting at all

You'd also be shocked how often 'non-racists' find ways to insert "niggardly" and "niggling" and, as in this thread, "coon" over and over in so obviously non-racist ways. You know, because my family is just so stupid they believe the rational reasons it's not insulting as obviously intended, and how discussion of Raccoons and people with names like Coon seem to come up so often in casual conversation.

Of course, how a cheese being renamed from a perceived racist insult deserves 10 pages of thread so non-racists can repeat how coon cheese shouldn't or isn't insulting to blacks because they, being white, don't find it insulting because of the story.

My wife, however, is grateful that white folks such as in this thread don't see "coon cheese" as a problem because of the plausible deniability of the origin story. She is ever so concerned that white folks not feel insulted by racist crap thrown at her.
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Old 25th July 2020, 11:02 AM   #285
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Originally Posted by cullennz View Post
OK. How does it stop some low level school yard racism by changing a brand name
I don't want to sound like Joe Morgue, but check this out. Saying "yeah, but it won't stop some low level school yard racism by changing a brand name stop all of the world's problems" isn't really an answer for the people who object to that particular name being used. The bottom line is they don't like that name being used because they find it offensive.

And seriously, blowing off the concerns of people who find something objectionable and offensive is kind of the reason why people are protesting in the streets at the present time.
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Old 25th July 2020, 11:16 AM   #286
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Disclaimer: Have not read thread. Just a few posts here and there.


Obviously, the people who market the stuff have to make a decision, and people's perceptions play a role in sales, so they have to keep all of that in mind when it comes to naming their cheese, whether or not it makes sense in a rational way.

That being said, it's a man's name. It is not racist in the least. Anyone who refuses to buy that cheese because of its name is being ridiculous.
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Old 25th July 2020, 11:22 AM   #287
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Originally Posted by SpitfireIX View Post
Many years ago in Fort Wayne we had long-serving and well-respected mayor named Harry BaalsWP, whose name was pronounced like "hairy balls."
That's a strange way to pronounce 'Harry'.
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Old 25th July 2020, 11:27 AM   #288
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Originally Posted by MoeFaux View Post
Yes, I agree, because it's a good move and because these are the times we're in. People will still find and eat their cheese! It can't possibly hurt cheese sales overall. People want their cheese, and fans of the product will adapt.

I learned the word has racist connotations while working at a dog start up. People would tell me the kinds of dogs they had. Many people had a particular kind of hound. But one person told me that they didn't refer to their breed by the common name, as it was racist. I appreciate having been told that. I never uttered that dog breed name again.
What? A coon hound? Named because the dog is a breed used to hunt racoons?

There is zero racism involved. None.



Ahhh......but......someone will say.....people would joke about using dogs to chase down black people, and would say that's what the name meant and.....Oh for pete's sake.

I see this happen so often, especially with sexual terms, but often with race-related terms as well. You take a perfectly fine word, and then people start using that word in a different way, and because that other use of the word is in some way naughty it becomes prominent, and suddenly you aren't supposed to use the word in its original meaning anymore because it "really" means the naughty thing. The most obvious example is "gay".

A coon dog is a dog used to hunt racoons, which animal's name is frequently shortened to "coon". Nothing racist about it.

Last edited by Meadmaker; 25th July 2020 at 11:31 AM.
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Old 25th July 2020, 11:44 AM   #289
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Originally Posted by Meadmaker View Post
Disclaimer: Have not read thread. Just a few posts here and there.


Obviously, the people who market the stuff have to make a decision, and people's perceptions play a role in sales, so they have to keep all of that in mind when it comes to naming their cheese, whether or not it makes sense in a rational way.

That being said, it's a man's name. It is not racist in the least. Anyone who refuses to buy that cheese because of its name is being ridiculous.

Yeah, you missed this.

Originally Posted by Bob001 View Post
According to this, the company was founded by Fred Walker, an Australian businessman who created Vegemite. The cheese is made by a process invented by the American Edward Coon, who apparently operated dairies but didn't sell cheese under that name. So the Australian Coon brand was not created by anybody named Coon, the name has no Australian connection, and the company has been through several changes of ownership, including getting sold by Kraft.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Coon_cheese

Is Coon really the only name they can use for cheddar cheese in Australia? Or is it maybe smart for a marketer not to make consumers mad?

Originally Posted by Elagabalus View Post
You left out the best part.

Quote:
...Coon cheese is named after its American creator, Edward William Coon (1871–1934) of Philadelphia, who patented a method, subsequently known as the Cooning process, for fast maturation of cheese via high temperature and humidity...
Which means the cheese sucks so change the name already.

Also, apparently, this isn't the first time this has come up.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Coon_cheese
So why not name it Fred Walker?
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Old 25th July 2020, 11:50 AM   #290
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Originally Posted by Elagabalus View Post
Yeah, you missed this.






So why not name it Fred Walker?

No I didn't.

This is ridiculous. Some guy made up a new way of cheese making, and someone named a type of cheese for his process and......what? Because it wasn't the owner's name that means it wasn't named for him? What are we to believe? The cheesemaking process story was some sort of cover story to hide the "real" racist meaning?

Honi soit qui mal y pense.
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Old 25th July 2020, 12:01 PM   #291
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Originally Posted by arthwollipot View Post
Since it appears that the name is an unfortunate coincidence of the name of the founder with an American racial slur, I would not blame them if they chose to keep the name, but I can understand that they don't want people to assume that the name is intended as a racial slur. Given the current cultural environment, it's probably a smart business decision to change the name, so as to avoid any appearance of a racial slur.
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Old 25th July 2020, 12:11 PM   #292
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Originally Posted by Meadmaker View Post
No I didn't.

This is ridiculous. Some guy made up a new way of cheese making, and someone named a type of cheese for his process and......what? Because it wasn't the owner's name that means it wasn't named for him? What are we to believe? The cheesemaking process story was some sort of cover story to hide the "real" racist meaning?

Honi soit qui mal y pense.
No, that the cheese wasn't named after the guy who started the company (as some have asserted in this thread) so it remains just a brand name, and as such, can be changed to something else if the company deems it necessary and/or advantageous to do so.*

You also missed the guy who has objected to the name for twenty years.

Quote:
The product name, which it shares with a racial slur, was defended by previous manufacturers Kraft and Dairy Farmers despite decades-long campaigns to change it,[8][9] including through challenges to the Australian Human Rights Commission in 1999 and Advertising Standards Bureau in 2001 by activist Stephen Hagan
*they are also under no obligation to change the name for purely rational reasons. They could also do it for purely irrational reasons just for the **** of it.
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Old 25th July 2020, 01:09 PM   #293
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Originally Posted by Elagabalus View Post
No, that the cheese wasn't named after the guy who started the company (as some have asserted in this thread) so it remains just a brand name, and as such, can be changed to something else if the company deems it necessary and/or advantageous to do so.*
Sure. It's a marketing decision. They have to take into account consumer sentiment, no matter how stupid that sentiment is. If the name is hurting cheese sales, then change the name of the cheese.

It's just not a moral choice. There's nothing wrong with the name, but there might be something wrong with their customers.

Quote:
You also missed the guy who has objected to the name for twenty years.
No, i just didn't care. He's been on some sort of stupid crusade, seeking racism where none exists? Ahh...but he's been doing it for 20 years so......connect the dots for me. What did I miss?
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Old 25th July 2020, 01:15 PM   #294
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Originally Posted by Meadmaker View Post
What? A coon hound? Named because the dog is a breed used to hunt racoons?

There is zero racism involved. None.

Ahhh......but......someone will say.....people would joke about using dogs to chase down black people, and would say that's what the name meant and.....Oh for pete's sake.

I see this happen so often, especially with sexual terms, but often with race-related terms as well. You take a perfectly fine word, and then people start using that word in a different way, and because that other use of the word is in some way naughty it becomes prominent, and suddenly you aren't supposed to use the word in its original meaning anymore because it "really" means the naughty thing. The most obvious example is "gay".

A coon dog is a dog used to hunt racoons, which animal's name is frequently shortened to "coon". Nothing racist about it.

But language is a living thing, and words change meaning and usage over time. According to this, there are six varieties of coonhound. They were used as general hunting dogs, not just to hunt raccoons. Calling them "red bone hound," "black and tan hound," etc., takes nothing away from communication -- in fact, improves it with specificity -- and avoids giving even unintentional offense.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Coonhound

Here's a list of antiquated English words. Some have a current meaning different from the original (assay, caboose, cleanse, freak, marry, usher); others are gone from our vocabulary. I might want to slap the darbies on a peterman, but nobody would understand.
https://www.lexico.com/explore/archaic-words

Changing Coon cheese to something current in smart marketing, not a sociopolitical commentary.
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Old 25th July 2020, 01:28 PM   #295
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Originally Posted by Bob001 View Post
But language is a living thing, and words change meaning and usage over time. According to this, there are six varieties of coonhound. They were used as general hunting dogs, not just to hunt raccoons. Calling them "red bone hound," "black and tan hound," etc., takes nothing away from communication -- in fact, improves it with specificity -- and avoids giving even unintentional offense.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Coonhound

Here's a list of antiquated English words. Some have a current meaning different from the original (assay, caboose, cleanse, freak, marry, usher); others are gone from our vocabulary. I might want to slap the darbies on a peterman, but nobody would understand.
https://www.lexico.com/explore/archaic-words
Wait. A black and tan hound wouldn't give unintentional offense? Seriously?

But I'm sure the people offended would get over it, unless they were the sort of people who were looking for an excuse to get offended. I've heard those people are out there.

Quote:
Changing Coon cheese to something current in smart marketing, not a sociopolitical commentary.
On this, we agree. There is nothing sociopolitical about the brand name "Coon". If it helps them sell cheese, then they should change the name.
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Old 25th July 2020, 01:59 PM   #296
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Sometimes you have to change things. That's evolution.

Personally, pointing to the breed name as referring to a dog who hunts raccoons sounds rather lame. It's how the words together are perceived *now* that matters.

So it needs to change.

This reminds me of "The circle game." The circle game involved making the "OK" hand gesture. You try to place it near your crotch, so someone looks, and you can either then make fun of them or punch them in the arm, depending on how you play. It's a schoolyard game. But, that symbol, the "OK" symbol, which even has an emoji, and is purely innocent, has now been appropriated by racists as part of the White Power movement, as "OK" can also look like the letters W and P.

Do you want to keep going around making the OK sign or playing a silly schoolyard game and be conflated with the White Power movement? I sure as hell don't. So I'll stop making the OK gesture. I'll stop holding up three fingers the "carney way" when saying the number three because I would be absolutely mortified if anyone were to think I was doing something racist. It's an easy change. What's so hard about doing it? Yeah, it's too freakin' bad some bad people have taken over something innocent. But I'm not going to keep doing something when it's a simple change of habit to avoid perpetuating a hateful ideology.
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Old 25th July 2020, 02:34 PM   #297
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Originally Posted by MoeFaux View Post
Sometimes you have to change things. That's evolution.

Personally, pointing to the breed name as referring to a dog who hunts raccoons sounds rather lame.

That's so weird. They were named because they were used to hunt raccoons, but it's lame to say that they refer to a dog that hunts raccoons.

I suppose no one hunts raccoons anymore, so people don't know that in the not very distant past, people used to send a bunch of dogs out in an attempt to find and tree a raccoon, and those big nosed dogs were really good at it.


Quote:
It's how the words together are perceived *now* that matters.
I perceive "coon hound" to be a dog that is used to hunt raccoons, or which is of the same breed that used to be used to hunt raccoons. And if you happen to use a beagle to hunt raccoons, it's ok to refer to that as a coon dog anywhere except a dog breeder or when drawing up a dog pedigree, but, here's the thing. No one who hunts raccoons cares about pedigree, so, really, it's ok to call a beagle a coon dog.


Quote:
So it needs to change.

This reminds me of "The circle game." The circle game involved making the "OK" hand gesture.
That is an excellent example. Someone took a a perfectly good gesture, which has an agreed upon meaning, and is recognizable all over the place, and then insisted that it "really" means something else, because someone saw it on youtube. So everyone who uses the agreed upon meaning has to stop. Bah. If I make the ok sign, and someone informs me that it's a white power gesture, I am very likely to respond with some other gesture that might be familiar in our culture, and I will explain that I have appropriated it to mean "Peace be with you."
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Old 25th July 2020, 02:48 PM   #298
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My father always used to say: "Even a dog knows the difference between being tripped over and kicked."

There seems to be a lot of people looking for ways to turn everything into a kick whether it was meant that way or not.
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Old 25th July 2020, 03:33 PM   #299
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Originally Posted by The Greater Fool View Post
Because 'coon' is insulting.

She is uninterested in the professed history because such 'reasonable reasons' why a racial insult isn't insulting in this case because... whatever are so common and insincere. Such stories come down to "You are too stupid to understand how you are being insulted." Pretty much exactly what is going on in this thread.

Even *IF* the owner was sincerely unaware of the impact of "coon" in the casually racist atmosphere of the time, the people going on and on in this thread about how not offended they are, are in fact aware of the insult and seem to delight in repeating a racist slur over and over, because you know, they do not intend to be insulting at all

You'd also be shocked how often 'non-racists' find ways to insert "niggardly" and "niggling" and, as in this thread, "coon" over and over in so obviously non-racist ways. You know, because my family is just so stupid they believe the rational reasons it's not insulting as obviously intended, and how discussion of Raccoons and people with names like Coon seem to come up so often in casual conversation.

Of course, how a cheese being renamed from a perceived racist insult deserves 10 pages of thread so non-racists can repeat how coon cheese shouldn't or isn't insulting to blacks because they, being white, don't find it insulting because of the story.

My wife, however, is grateful that white folks such as in this thread don't see "coon cheese" as a problem because of the plausible deniability of the origin story. She is ever so concerned that white folks not feel insulted by racist crap thrown at her.
Thank you for taking the time to respond. I hope those responses are hers and not yours. I'm somewhat inebriated right now and will respond later.
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Old 25th July 2020, 04:15 PM   #300
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Originally Posted by The Greater Fool View Post
Because 'coon' is insulting.

She is uninterested in the professed history because such 'reasonable reasons' why a racial insult isn't insulting in this case because... whatever are so common and insincere. Such stories come down to "You are too stupid to understand how you are being insulted." Pretty much exactly what is going on in this thread.

Even *IF* the owner was sincerely unaware of the impact of "coon" in the casually racist atmosphere of the time, the people going on and on in this thread about how not offended they are, are in fact aware of the insult and seem to delight in repeating a racist slur over and over, because you know, they do not intend to be insulting at all

You'd also be shocked how often 'non-racists' find ways to insert "niggardly" and "niggling" and, as in this thread, "coon" over and over in so obviously non-racist ways. You know, because my family is just so stupid they believe the rational reasons it's not insulting as obviously intended, and how discussion of Raccoons and people with names like Coon seem to come up so often in casual conversation.

Of course, how a cheese being renamed from a perceived racist insult deserves 10 pages of thread so non-racists can repeat how coon cheese shouldn't or isn't insulting to blacks because they, being white, don't find it insulting because of the story.

My wife, however, is grateful that white folks such as in this thread don't see "coon cheese" as a problem because of the plausible deniability of the origin story. She is ever so concerned that white folks not feel insulted by racist crap thrown at her.
Your wife sounds pretty sensitive.
She needs to relax and learn that it always isn't about her or her skin tone.
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Old 25th July 2020, 04:20 PM   #301
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Originally Posted by Darat View Post
And? Was "Coon cheese" a popular well known cheese when you were growing up, was "coon" used as a racial insult when you were growing up?
Originally Posted by cullennz View Post
No. .
Thats because you did not grow up in Australia.
And you are wrong.

The answer to both question put by Darat is both “yes” and “yes”.

Quote:
This doesn't exclude me from thinking it is pointless
Actually it does, since you are so obviously ignorant of Australian social mores and the background to the argument at hand.

For the same reason, I don’t engage on commentary about white/Maori relations, you should think twice about lecturing people about social relationships you have no experience or background with.
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Old 25th July 2020, 04:27 PM   #302
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Originally Posted by MoeFaux View Post
Sometimes you have to change things. That's evolution.

Personally, pointing to the breed name as referring to a dog who hunts raccoons sounds rather lame. It's how the words together are perceived *now* that matters.

So it needs to change.

This reminds me of "The circle game." The circle game involved making the "OK" hand gesture. You try to place it near your crotch, so someone looks, and you can either then make fun of them or punch them in the arm, depending on how you play. It's a schoolyard game. But, that symbol, the "OK" symbol, which even has an emoji, and is purely innocent, has now been appropriated by racists as part of the White Power movement, as "OK" can also look like the letters W and P.

Do you want to keep going around making the OK sign or playing a silly schoolyard game and be conflated with the White Power movement? I sure as hell don't. So I'll stop making the OK gesture. I'll stop holding up three fingers the "carney way" when saying the number three because I would be absolutely mortified if anyone were to think I was doing something racist. It's an easy change. What's so hard about doing it? Yeah, it's too freakin' bad some bad people have taken over something innocent. But I'm not going to keep doing something when it's a simple change of habit to avoid perpetuating a hateful ideology.
The ok sign started off as a joke on 4Chan to see if they could turn a straight forward innocuous gesture into something associated with hate.

It worked.

They won.

And not doing it any more, (I have actually never. As I just tend to say "okay") just panders to their egos.

But by all means. Be manipulated by idiot teenagers
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Old 25th July 2020, 04:45 PM   #303
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Originally Posted by rockinkt View Post
Your wife sounds pretty sensitive.
She needs to relax and learn that it always isn't about her or her skin tone.

If you look for hidden meanings and try and analyze every word or statement for some indication of ulterior motive you will never find peace.
Sometimes a cigar is just a cigar.
Really? You, a member of the white majority, are telling a black person that they are just being too sensitive, too silly, and should not be offended or not by a use of a term that has a long history as a racial slur directed against blacks. After, in fact, members of this forum had specifically requested that black people be asked if they are offended by this term. Apparently she had the “wrong” answer for you to accept it.

Don’t you think your post might be viewed as a bit insulting, condescending, and presumptuous?

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Old 25th July 2020, 06:23 PM   #304
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Originally Posted by cullennz View Post
The ok sign started off as a joke on 4Chan to see if they could turn a straight forward innocuous gesture into something associated with hate.
That's hilarious.

And yeah, it worked. That's kind of sad.
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Old 25th July 2020, 09:34 PM   #305
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Around 30 years ago, a friend from the UK saw Coon Cheese in an Australian supermarket and said to me, "WTF, you have a cheese called Coon here? That would never be allowed in the UK or the US".

It's a huge embarrassment to Australia that:

A) It's taken this long to change it, and;
B) That there are still people saying to keep it even though they all know it's seen as racist.
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Old 25th July 2020, 10:01 PM   #306
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Originally Posted by Orphia Nay View Post
Around 30 years ago, a friend from the UK saw Coon Cheese in an Australian supermarket and said to me, "WTF, you have a cheese called Coon here? That would never be allowed in the UK or the US".

It's a huge embarrassment to Australia that:

A) It's taken this long to change it, and;
B) That there are still people saying to keep it even though they all know it's seen as racist.
Kind of pot calling the kettle black though.
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Old 25th July 2020, 10:47 PM   #307
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Originally Posted by cullennz View Post
Kind of pot calling the kettle black though.
Two wrongs don't make a right.

Why continue to fight against putting it right?
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Old 25th July 2020, 10:54 PM   #308
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Originally Posted by Orphia Nay View Post
Two wrongs don't make a right.

Why continue to fight against putting it right?
I'm not fighting anything.

I don't actually care if they change the name.

As I have said I am not an Aussie. Have never seen it or brought it.

All I said was I thought it was stupid as it is someone's last name.

I hope your British friend got home alright to buy her Faggots from tescos
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Old 25th July 2020, 11:12 PM   #309
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Since it's an Aussie thing, I didn't actually know there was a Coon cheese.

When I see the name Coon, I think of this guy: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gene_L._Coon


Maybe if they named it something like "Edward Coon Style Cheese". Or just "Ed Coon". Redesign the logo so that it's more obvious that it's a guy's name. Bah. There's a reason I'm in engineering instead of marketing.

I'm not trying to be flippant with this next question. Honestly. We've heard that calling a dog a Coon Hound is racist, so what about the Maine Coon cat breed? Like I say, it's a serious question. They are named because they are larger than average cats, like the size of a raccoon, that often have ringed tails.

I'm just trying to grasp what it is that makes a name racist. There is absolutely zero doubt that the cat breed is named for its resemblance to a raccoon, but the actual origin of the name seems pretty irrelevant. The cheese is named for a guy who invented the cheese-making process used to make the cheese, but because the name has a different meaning, people say that using the guy's name is racist, at least when applied to cheese.

With cats, I suppose the "Maine" descriptor makes it sound less jarring. I've never heard anyone refer to the breed without the "Maine" part.. It's always "Maine Coon", so maybe that's enough separation, verbally, that no one gets confused. I hope so. Otherwise, the state of Maine is going to have to change its official state cat.
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Old 25th July 2020, 11:14 PM   #310
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Originally Posted by cullennz View Post
I'm not fighting anything.

I don't actually care if they change the name.

As I have said I am not an Aussie. Have never seen it or brought it.

All I said was I thought it was stupid as it is someone's last name.

I hope your British friend got home alright to buy her Faggots from tescos
Is a cigarette a faggot? I've heard it called a fag, but never a faggot. Or were you saying she was going to buy some firewood?


And how come the new meaning of something is always either the sexual or offensive meaning? So we take a word that has one meaning, and then say that it has a second, different, meaning that is either sexual or offensive, and that becomes the meaning of the word. I could insist that a raised middle finger means "Peace be with you", but no one would ever buy it, because they think of something offensive for that gesture, but when someone says there's an offensive meaning to the familiar "ok" gesture, now people are fired for making the gesture. (See the "cancel culture" thread.)

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Old 25th July 2020, 11:20 PM   #311
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Originally Posted by Meadmaker View Post
Is a cigarette a faggot? I've heard it called a fag, but never a faggot. Or were you saying she was going to buy some firewood.
It's a British meatball type thing.

I said earlier it cracked me up when I first saw them.
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Old 25th July 2020, 11:29 PM   #312
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Originally Posted by cullennz View Post
It's a British meatball type thing.

I said earlier it cracked me up when I first saw them.
I vaguely recall seeing a reference to it in a thread, now that you mention it.
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Old 25th July 2020, 11:30 PM   #313
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https://www.tesco.com/groceries/en-G...ucts/282049626
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Old 26th July 2020, 12:06 AM   #314
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Originally Posted by Meadmaker View Post
Is a cigarette a faggot? I've heard it called a fag, but never a faggot. Or were you saying she was going to buy some firewood?


And how come the new meaning of something is always either the sexual or offensive meaning? So we take a word that has one meaning, and then say that it has a second, different, meaning that is either sexual or offensive, and that becomes the meaning of the word.
What about saying "that sucks" or "douchebag"? Didn't they used to have much more vulgar/sexual meanings and then lost them?

Also, some words used to be seriously offensive if they were related to religion, "damn", "bloody", "hell", and "Jesus Christ!" but these are generally not considered that offensive any more.

From what I remember, taboo words tend to fall into 4 categories: excrement, sexual, religious, ethnic.

Some cultures have a greater taboo about one side more than another. In Spanish people often say "I will **** on God/The Virgin Mary" and French Canadians have some weird thing about thinking "tabernacle" is like the most offensive thing you can say.

In English, cultures that used to have religion as the worst words could have you up for blasphemy if you used religious words inappropriately and they were still considered pretty bad until a generation or two ago. Then excrement and sexual swearwords probably were the worst word you could use hence Carlin's Seven Words you can't say on TV all to do with them. The "C-word" was probably the most offensive word in the US even though it is a perfectly ordinary term of affection between family members in Australia, "Hey granny you old ******" sounds bad in America, but it is a perfectly ordinary way to wish your granmother happy birthday in Brisbane (I may be exaggerating)


An Australian colleague of mine recently said to a kid, "Come here ya little bugger!" and I had to tell him it's probably best he doesn't use that. Why? Because although the word "bugger" is becoming more and more associated as a word you could call some kid, anyone looking it up in the dictionary is probably going to find it referred to as offensive and sexual.

These days, I think all these words can be on TV and if you object you are a bit of an old fuddy duddy.

However, words that have supplanted those are racist terms, and people's acceptance of them is going down all the time. Even uses of it that seemed to indicate someone's character are becoming difficult for audiences to stomach. The N-word raised a slight eyebrow with Pulp Fiction, but with Hateful Eight some people were beginning to think that Tarantino was enjoying it a bit too much. I think it might get even harder for him to put it in his scripts as willy-nilly as in the past.

Peter Jackson, if he remakes Dambusters, has said he will rename the black labrador Digger, and the name is not usually broadcast on TV anymore. You can object if you want, but personally, if you broadcast it during the day, I don't blame people for thinking, "Hey, this name is not going to go over as well today as it did in the past. Maybe we censor it from the 2 o'clock broaddcast....?"

So in answer to your question, it's not all one-way traffic, and people begin to get accustomed to taboo words in some cases, and less tolerant of them in other places. Languages and societies change.


Originally Posted by Meadmaker View Post
I could insist that a raised middle finger means "Peace be with you", but no one would ever buy it, because they think of something offensive for that gesture, but when someone says there's an offensive meaning to the familiar "ok" gesture, now people are fired for making the gesture. (See the "cancel culture" thread.)
Yeah, but making up your own slang and your own meanings almost never works. I could insist that helicopters are called Escadors but that doesn't mean people will start agreeing to my use does it? It requires agreement among speakers.
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Old 26th July 2020, 12:31 AM   #315
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Originally Posted by angrysoba View Post
What about saying "that sucks" or "douchebag"? Didn't they used to have much more vulgar/sexual meanings and then lost them?
Good point. I can remember when "sucks" was vulgar, but now it's pretty acceptable, and the sexual connotation is barely remembered.

Rats. Wrong again.

(The rest of the post made sense, too.)
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Old 26th July 2020, 01:06 AM   #316
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Probably just me being naive and kind of obvious when thinking about it.

But "that sucks" has never been vulgar in my experience.

Might be a regional thing. (Either that or I come from a particularly dim place )
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Old 26th July 2020, 01:20 AM   #317
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Originally Posted by Meadmaker View Post
Good point. I can remember when "sucks" was vulgar, but now it's pretty acceptable, and the sexual connotation is barely remembered.

Rats. Wrong again.

(The rest of the post made sense, too.)
I have no issue with the rest of the post either, but disagree that sucks was vulgar in intent.

I’ve always thought of it, and used it, in the context of “that sucks air

OK Urban Dictionary is not the greatest of cites sure, but, except for “suck my dick”, none (Not many)of the other “suck” variants are vulgar?

I’m not sure how accurate their etymology is, but this is how they go at sucks,
The early Jazz musicians would say that a guy could really "Blow" if he had a good sound when playing the horn. If he couldn't play very well then they would say that he was "Sucking" on that horn. That's where the term "Suck" as being something bad came from.
He plays that horn so poorly that he must be sucking on it
I much prefer, “ya boo sucks to all swots gurls and masters”
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Old 26th July 2020, 01:58 AM   #318
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Originally Posted by cullennz View Post
I hope your British friend got home alright to buy her Faggots from tescos
He has never mentioned them, so I asked him.

He says his mum used to give them to the family when he was a kid, but he thinks they tasted terrible.

He's lived in Australia since 1992 and has never bought them in that time, and I've never seen them in the shops.

Are they in the shops in NZ?
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Old 26th July 2020, 02:02 AM   #319
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Originally Posted by cullennz View Post
Probably just me being naive and kind of obvious when thinking about it.

But "that sucks" has never been vulgar in my experience.

Might be a regional thing. (Either that or I come from a particularly dim place )
Originally Posted by EHocking View Post
I have no issue with the rest of the post either, but disagree that sucks was vulgar in intent.

I’ve always thought of it, and used it, in the context of “that sucks air

OK Urban Dictionary is not the greatest of cites sure, but, except for “suck my dick”, none (Not many)of the other “suck” variants are vulgar?

I’m not sure how accurate their etymology is, but this is how they go at sucks,
The early Jazz musicians would say that a guy could really "Blow" if he had a good sound when playing the horn. If he couldn't play very well then they would say that he was "Sucking" on that horn. That's where the term "Suck" as being something bad came from.
He plays that horn so poorly that he must be sucking on it
I much prefer, “ya boo sucks to all swots gurls and masters”
According to the online etymological dictionary:

Quote:
Meaning "do fellatio" is first recorded 1928. Slang sense of "be contemptible" first attested 1971 (the underlying notion is of fellatio).
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"Evolution and Ethics" T.H. Huxley (1893)
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Old 26th July 2020, 02:06 AM   #320
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Originally Posted by Orphia Nay View Post
He has never mentioned them, so I asked him.



He says his mum used to give them to the family when he was a kid, but he thinks they tasted terrible.



He's lived in Australia since 1992 and has never bought them in that time, and I've never seen them in the shops.



Are they in the shops in NZ?
Not that I have seen. But we do have shops specialising in British goods.

(It is where I buy my Quavers; real marmite, sweppes bitter lemon and twig let's from)!

So a few of them may do.

I have made them from scratch since being back.

Were lovely


Edit: OR even Schweppes if I could spell
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