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Old 24th July 2020, 10:47 PM   #1
Omar
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I'm an ex-muslim from Afghanistan.

Hello everyone here. My name is Omar a student of mechanical engineering. I was born in a strict Muslim family. But after some research in Islam and other religions, I decided to quit Islam.
Ask me anything about Islam, Afghanistan, and my personal life, I'll answer patiently.

Last edited by Omar; 24th July 2020 at 10:55 PM.
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Old 24th July 2020, 10:57 PM   #2
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Hi Omar. Have you changed to another religion or are you of atheist or agnostic world-view now?
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Old 24th July 2020, 11:04 PM   #3
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Originally Posted by Childlike Empress View Post
Hi Omar. Have you changed to another religion or are you of atheist or agnostic world-view now?
Hi, all religions are the same. We are not created by God. however, God is created by humans. So, I'm an atheist.
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Old 24th July 2020, 11:11 PM   #4
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Welcome, Omar.

Does anyone you know in Kabul know you are no longer Muslim and an atheist?
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Old 24th July 2020, 11:20 PM   #5
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OK Omar, I've read the thread about you by Wolfman. Myself I have been save as a Catholic Christian in Germany who left the church in my early adulthood. But I always thought Atheism is a cop-out. I would have called myself an Agnostic for most time on this forum, but I would go a bit further to "spiritual" these days.

Anyway, I don't know if this is what you want to talk about or if it is the situation of being in an archaic society with thoughts against the mainstream. If it is the latter, good luck, lots of Americans here...
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Old 24th July 2020, 11:20 PM   #6
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Hello and welcome!

I don't feel very qualified to ask you anything, and would much rather you told us something you found particularly significant.

Hope you have a good time here!
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Old 25th July 2020, 01:54 AM   #7
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Originally Posted by Orphia Nay View Post
Welcome, Omar.

Does anyone you know in Kabul know you are no longer Muslim and an atheist?
Only my family knows about my atheism which is not good.
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Old 25th July 2020, 02:55 AM   #8
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Originally Posted by Omar View Post
So, I'm an atheist.
Excellent news - always pleased to see someone who figures it out and breaks free of a religious upbringing.

You should possibly think about moving to a country where nobody cares about your religious beliefs.
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Old 25th July 2020, 02:56 AM   #9
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Originally Posted by Omar View Post
Only my family knows about my atheism which is not good.
Have your family been supportive?

Do you know if there are other atheists in Kabul?
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Old 25th July 2020, 08:49 AM   #10
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Hello Omar and welcome. I too don't really have any questions at this time, but I'll look forward to your input. It's not a bad bunch here and I hope you'll feel part of the ISF 'family'.
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Old 25th July 2020, 09:18 AM   #11
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Hi Omar,
Welcome to the ISF. I do have a couple of questions.
1. The Taliban style themselves as being the most faithful, representing the true spirit of Islam. What is the feeling among the Afghan people? Do they see the Taliban as true Muslims, or as a perversion of the faith?
2. Given that it was the Saudis (Wahabbis) who essentially created the Taliban, what do you think about the Saudi influence in Pakistan and Afghanistan?
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Old 25th July 2020, 10:05 AM   #12
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Hello, Omar.

I do have a question for you. By all accounts Afghanistan isn't a safe place to broadcast your apostasy from. Have you fully considered the possible fallouts of posting so openly here? If you have, great; in that case I'm sure you'll have plenty of very interesting things, perspectives, to share here. But just in case you haven't thought this through, then perhaps you should give this practical angle some thought.

In any case, welcome to these forums.


Edited to clarify : That was just a friendly word of caution. I don't mean to discourage you in any way, if you think this is safe for you, or if it is your considered decision to take on any risk this may entail! No dearth of crazy ******** on the loose over there, with guns, from what one reads and hears!

Last edited by Chanakya; 25th July 2020 at 10:18 AM.
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Old 25th July 2020, 11:56 AM   #13
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Omar is a good friend of mine, and I started a thread awhile ago to introduce him here, I'd encourage people to read that for more background.

He's an amazing guy...giving up his faith has not been easy, as his father and brothers have vowed to kill him for doing so.

We are seeking to get him out of Afghanistan, but that is difficult. I've put him in touch with the Secular Underground Network, who help people in situations like Omar's, but it's still a very slow and difficult process.

Omar's a really great guy, but he's also somewhat shy, and unsure of what to write about here. I'd encourage everyone to ask him questions -- about Islam, and why he rejected Islam, about life in Afghanistan, about himself, etc. I introduced him here specifically to give him a 'community' that he can talk with and get encouragement from, as he's pretty much on his own in Afghanistan. As I think you can imagine, having your own family actively seeking to murder you, and living in hiding in fear of your life, is not conducive to the most relaxed and contemplative life...feel free to throw as much love, support, and encouragement his way, as you possibly can.

ETA: Have I failed to mention that Omar's a really terrific guy?
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Old 25th July 2020, 11:59 AM   #14
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Originally Posted by Chanakya View Post
Hello, Omar.

I do have a question for you. By all accounts Afghanistan isn't a safe place to broadcast your apostasy from. Have you fully considered the possible fallouts of posting so openly here? If you have, great; in that case I'm sure you'll have plenty of very interesting things, perspectives, to share here. But just in case you haven't thought this through, then perhaps you should give this practical angle some thought.

In any case, welcome to these forums.


Edited to clarify : That was just a friendly word of caution. I don't mean to discourage you in any way, if you think this is safe for you, or if it is your considered decision to take on any risk this may entail! No dearth of crazy ******** on the loose over there, with guns, from what one reads and hears!
Chanakya,

I can field that question...I considered that issue when I first recommended Omar to join here. "Omar" is not his real name, and it is up to him how much personally identifying info he gives here...so even if there were someone here who wanted to cause trouble for him (and I can't see any of our members desiring to do so), it would be pretty much impossible.

Both Omar and I are quite paranoid about keeping his identity private.
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Old 25th July 2020, 12:35 PM   #15
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@Wolfman,

No no, I didn't mean to imply that any member here might wish him ill, but this is a public forum after all.

As for anonymity, I'm sure you've thought this out, but merely masking one's name has limited scope, unless you also use some effective VPN. (This is basic, I know, but given the situation there, better an obvious remark than sorry!)

Absolutely, I'll check out your thread. "Omar" does seem a great guy. It takes courage to openly take that kind of stand in that place.

And that thing about his father and brothers? That's so ****** up, I don't even know what to say.

This may be a bit late for this, but one way to go about this might've been to keep one's thoughts and (lack of) convictions private, for now. That's probably no longer an option. And being open about this is certainly more ... principled, more courageous.


ETA:
Read the thread in Community. A thought: Why not shift this thread there, and ask Omar to limit personal references to that forum, just to be safe? Just a gentle suggestion, whatever you think best.



@Omar: How does the law there, as well as the people there, look on recanting as? Like someone suggested in the other thread, you might pretend to do that, for now, if at all that makes sense. That may seem unprincipled, dishonest even, but better safe than ... not safe! (Again, just a gentle suggestion. Whatever you think best. Obviously.)

Anyway, good luck! Hope it all works out fore the best.

Last edited by Chanakya; 25th July 2020 at 02:34 PM.
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Old 25th July 2020, 08:16 PM   #16
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Originally Posted by Wolfman View Post
Omar is a good friend of mine, and I started a thread awhile ago to introduce him here, I'd encourage people to read that for more background.
<snip>
Your link goes to a YouTube. I think this is where the link should go to http://www.internationalskeptics.com...d.php?t=345378.

Am I the first to click the link?
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Old 25th July 2020, 08:24 PM   #17
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What sort of religion is it that will kill people who try to leave it? Are there any other types of organisations that will do anything similar? I can think of criminal gangs and certain countries where the conditions are very bad (East Germany is one example).
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Old 25th July 2020, 08:29 PM   #18
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Originally Posted by rjh01 View Post
Your link goes to a YouTube. I think this is where the link should go to http://www.internationalskeptics.com...d.php?t=345378.

Am I the first to click the link?
Wow...yeah, I was linking to that video for a Facebook post, and guess I accidentally inserted it here, too...thanks for bringing that up.

I can't edit it any more, will ask the mods if they can do so.
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Old 25th July 2020, 08:32 PM   #19
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Originally Posted by rjh01 View Post
What sort of religion is it that will kill people who try to leave it? Are there any other types of organisations that will do anything similar? I can think of criminal gangs and certain countries where the conditions are very bad (East Germany is one example).
Islam
North Korea
Criminal organizations

The Old Testament tells parents to kill their children for being disobedient, which presumably would include rejecting their faith.
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Old 25th July 2020, 08:33 PM   #20
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Originally Posted by Omar View Post
Hi, all religions are the same. We are not created by God. however, God is created by humans. So, I'm an atheist.
That should make you very popular here.

Do you intend to make arguments against the idea of gods or are you content to say that this is just your POV?
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Old 25th July 2020, 09:48 PM   #21
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Originally Posted by psionl0 View Post
Do you intend to make arguments against the idea of gods or are you content to say that this is just your POV?
I believe Omar has already answered that question...

Originally Posted by Omar View Post
Hi, all religions are the same. We are not created by God. however, God is created by humans. So, I'm an atheist.
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Old 25th July 2020, 09:54 PM   #22
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Originally Posted by psionl0 View Post
That should make you very popular here.

Do you intend to make arguments against the idea of gods or are you content to say that this is just your POV?
I'll let him elaborate on this, but he's shared with me his desire to promote Secular Humanism in Afghanistan.
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Old 25th July 2020, 10:07 PM   #23
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Hi Omar,

Hopefully you won't be overwhelmed by all the questions.

I have a couple of questions for you...

1. Was it a particular thing that finally changed you mind, was it something big, or a figurative 'last straw that broke the camel's back' ?

2. I've been wondering about the difference between The Koran and The Commentaries (I hope I have the terms right) and how much weight that people may place on the two, can you offer anything for a rank outsider like me to help me understand the importance of the commentaries?
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Old 25th July 2020, 11:49 PM   #24
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Originally Posted by Omar View Post
Hi, all religions are the same. We are not created by God. however, God is created by humans. So, I'm an atheist.
Hi Omar, I like you already. Welcome!
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Old 26th July 2020, 12:14 AM   #25
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Welcome Omar!
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Old 26th July 2020, 10:34 AM   #26
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Originally Posted by The Atheist View Post
Excellent news - always pleased to see someone who figures it out and breaks free of a religious upbringing.

You should possibly think about moving to a country where nobody cares about your religious beliefs.
I'm planning to make all the people of Afghanistan atheists and secular humanists. It souds difficult but I'll do whatever is possible. It's easy for me to make a Muslim leave Islam because I've experienced everything.
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Old 26th July 2020, 10:50 AM   #27
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Originally Posted by Orphia Nay View Post
Have your family been supportive?

Do you know if there are other atheists in Kabul?
Hi Orphia,
My family was supportive but not anymore. I don't belong to that family anymore. When they realized I'd left Islam, they reacted too horribly. Luckily I had already left home. Otherwise, I could get killed. Now they think I'm dead for them.
Yes, I think there probably are more atheists too in Kabul but they can't reveal it and don't know any other atheist in Afghanistan. I've just seen a few Facebook users who are against Islam here.
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Old 26th July 2020, 11:45 AM   #28
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Hi
It spends on the people where they live. From my point of view, maybe %60-80 people who live in country believe that Taliban are true muslims. But less than %2 people who live in cities believe that Taliban are true muslims.
I want to mention that I myself believe that Taliban and ISIS are the true Muslims. They follow whatever is the real Islam and what Muhammad says.

Taliban appeared when Afghanistan was in a very bad situation. There a civil war here and so many groups were fighting to get power and money. Taliban were created by an Iman who was also a teacher of a religious school in Kandahar province ( Mohammad Omar). At first they killed a few muggers. People thought they were good people, so they got a lot of support from people. Soon they received publicity and when they got the power, then of course, Sudi Arabia supported and helped them. Even now sudi Arabia and other Arabic countries support Taliban.
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Old 26th July 2020, 11:50 AM   #29
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Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger View Post
Hi Omar, I like you already. Welcome!
Thank you so much
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Old 26th July 2020, 11:53 AM   #30
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Originally Posted by psionl0 View Post
That should make you very popular here.

Do you intend to make arguments against the idea of gods or are you content to say that this is just your POV?
I'll make arguments about God perhaps in another thread.
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Old 26th July 2020, 12:20 PM   #31
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Originally Posted by Omar View Post
Hi
It spends on the people where they live. From my point of view, maybe %60-80 people who live in country believe that Taliban are true muslims. But less than %2 people who live in cities believe that Taliban are true muslims.
I want to mention that I myself believe that Taliban and ISIS are the true Muslims. They follow whatever is the real Islam and what Muhammad says.

Taliban appeared when Afghanistan was in a very bad situation. There a civil war here and so many groups were fighting to get power and money. Taliban were created by an Iman who was also a teacher of a religious school in Kandahar province ( Mohammad Omar). At first they killed a few muggers. People thought they were good people, so they got a lot of support from people. Soon they received publicity and when they got the power, then of course, Sudi Arabia supported and helped them. Even now sudi Arabia and other Arabic countries support Taliban.
Omar,

Perhaps you could clarify a little. When you say that the Taliban are the 'true Muslims', do you mean that you think their version of Islam is better?
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Old 26th July 2020, 12:35 PM   #32
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Originally Posted by Omar View Post
Hello everyone here. My name is Omar a student of mechanical engineering. I was born in a strict Muslim family. But after some research in Islam and other religions, I decided to quit Islam.
Ask me anything about Islam, Afghanistan, and my personal life, I'll answer patiently.
Well, welcome. I wish you the best of luck.

Hans
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Old 26th July 2020, 01:27 PM   #33
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Originally Posted by Wolfman View Post
Omar,

Perhaps you could clarify a little. When you say that the Taliban are the 'true Muslims', do you mean that you think their version of Islam is better?
That's not what he said, though ...

Quote:
maybe %60-80 people who live in country believe that Taliban are true muslims. But less than %2 people who live in cities believe that Taliban are true muslims.
I knew of a guy who would definitely not consider Taliban "true Muslims" because he didn't approve of making extra rules beyond what was specified in the Qur'an. He didn't consider Saudis true Muslims, either. Actually the only "true Muslims," according to him, were a tiny sect that had restored Islam to purity, led by ... him.

He was assassinated.
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Old 26th July 2020, 02:30 PM   #34
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Originally Posted by Omar View Post
... I myself believe that Taliban and ISIS are the true Muslims. They follow whatever is the real Islam and what Muhammad says. ...

Originally Posted by Wolfman View Post
Omar,

Perhaps you could clarify a little. When you say that the Taliban are the 'true Muslims', do you mean that you think their version of Islam is better?

We'll let Omar explain himself in his words, but I love this guy!

Kudos to you, @Omar, for thinking this and saying this!
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Old 26th July 2020, 02:50 PM   #35
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oops
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Old 26th July 2020, 02:51 PM   #36
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Originally Posted by Minoosh View Post
That's not what he said, though ...
If you read just a little further, you'll see that he also said, "I want to mention that I myself believe that Taliban and ISIS are the true Muslims"
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Old 26th July 2020, 02:54 PM   #37
p0lka
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Originally Posted by Wolfman View Post
Omar is a good friend of mine, and I started a thread awhile ago to introduce him here, I'd encourage people to read that for more background.

He's an amazing guy...giving up his faith has not been easy, as his father and brothers have vowed to kill him for doing so.

We are seeking to get him out of Afghanistan, but that is difficult. I've put him in touch with the Secular Underground Network, who help people in situations like Omar's, but it's still a very slow and difficult process.

Omar's a really great guy, but he's also somewhat shy, and unsure of what to write about here. I'd encourage everyone to ask him questions -- about Islam, and why he rejected Islam, about life in Afghanistan, about himself, etc. I introduced him here specifically to give him a 'community' that he can talk with and get encouragement from, as he's pretty much on his own in Afghanistan. As I think you can imagine, having your own family actively seeking to murder you, and living in hiding in fear of your life, is not conducive to the most relaxed and contemplative life...feel free to throw as much love, support, and encouragement his way, as you possibly can.

ETA: Have I failed to mention that Omar's a really terrific guy?
Yeah that needs to be fixed.
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Old 26th July 2020, 05:40 PM   #38
Trebuchet
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Originally Posted by rjh01 View Post
What sort of religion is it that will kill people who try to leave it? Are there any other types of organisations that will do anything similar? I can think of criminal gangs and certain countries where the conditions are very bad (East Germany is one example).
Originally Posted by Wolfman View Post
Islam
North Korea
Criminal organizations

The Old Testament tells parents to kill their children for being disobedient, which presumably would include rejecting their faith.
And of course, many varieties of Christianity over the years. Including some modern American ones.
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Old 26th July 2020, 09:19 PM   #39
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Originally Posted by Wolfman View Post
If you read just a little further, you'll see that he also said, "I want to mention that I myself believe that Taliban and ISIS are the true Muslims"
Hello Wolfman
I have many reasons why Taliban are true muslims. Even I can say ISIS are better than Taliban in applying the rules of Islam.
Nowadays muslims in all countries around the world don't study Quran carefully. They don't know what is the real Islam. I guarantee if a Muslim study Quran and Hadith well and apply it, he or she will become extremist or even a terrorist. The leaders of Islam try to show that there is no violence in Islam and they change some rules of Islam for their own benefits. That's why Islam is devided into hundreds of groups. Each of them claims that we are true muslims. I belive that Taliban apply almost the exact Islam. Those muslims who say Taliban are not true muslims, they don't know anything about Islam. They just call themselves muslims.
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Old 26th July 2020, 09:22 PM   #40
Wolfman
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Originally Posted by Omar View Post
Hello Wolfman
I have many reasons why Taliban are true muslims. Even I can say ISIS are better than Taliban in applying the rules of Islam.
Nowadays muslims in all countries around the world don't study Quran carefully. They don't know what is the real Islam. I guarantee if a Muslim study Quran and Hadith well and apply it, he or she will become extremist or even a terrorist. The leaders of Islam try to show that there is no violence in Islam and they change some rules of Islam for their own benefits. That's why Islam is devided into hundreds of groups. Each of them claims that we are true muslims. I belive that Taliban apply almost the exact Islam. Those muslims who say Taliban are not true muslims, they don't know anything about Islam. They just call themselves muslims.
Yes, I figured that was what you meant.

We could make a similar argument for extreme Christian groups who seek to take Old Testament teachings literally...they are, in some ways, more 'real Christians' than anyone else; as opposed to those who play with the scriptures to make them say something else.

I think that the important point here is that you aren't saying they are "real Muslims" to praise them...it is more saying it to reveal the violence and intolerance that are part of Islamic teachings.
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